What Do You Think When You See A Western Man And A Thai Woman?

[supielicious]

i am 23 and my farang bf is 31

he is a few years older than me but we get along well

but he s kinda picking

and he doesnt wanna have bar girl gf

i have 4 yr degree

he likes me because im smart and look nice ( im beautiful n sexy too)

and he s very too

when we went to thailand

ppl always looked and they were jealous that i have cute bf ( i think )

he is 183 cm and im 163

and i m slender and have nice figure

but some thai women with old farangs

it s not wrong to do that but u have to admit that it doesnt look so good when western ppl look at u

cuz too many ages different would couse many problems and hard to understand each other.

but some couples can work it out

but im sure i cant cant do that

cuz i dont wanna see ppl laugh at me

when i walk with someone who s older than my dad

[Boo]

And do you get a lot of looks in Norway?

[Sheryl]

Maybe for some Sheryl, but I don't think all. I think some of them are emotionally and intellectually mature, but they just don't care. They don't value women as women, only as objects and as a means to gratify their sexual egos. That's why it is so easy for them to pay for relationships and arrangements in which they have very little commong ground.

I think they either had those values to begin with, or they allowed the worst elements of male behavior and vanity to flourish in an atmosphere conducive to such attitudes.

Maybe we have different definitions of maturity.

For me. outgrowing the narcissism which is natural in children and coming to recognize the legitimacy of the needs and wishes of other people -- as well as development of a natural empathy, recognition that one is not the center of the world, ability ot delay or forgo gratification when necessary, are the very essence of being emotional mature. Most of these guys fail on all counts. What I see is an infantile narcissism which they are better able to indulge here than in the west. But, like all narcussism, indulging it just feeds it and makes it worse.

Switching tracks for a moment..I have been thinking about what it is that makes the idea of a sexual relationship across very wide age gaps so repulsive to me. I think it's two things. One is the incest taboo, which just seems to be to be normal to human beings...it just is not normal for people old enough to be the parent to be sexualy involved with someone the age of their child (or the age theirchild would be if they had one).

The other point is the natural repugnance that age has in the eyes of youth. There is no question that young bodies are more beautiful than old ones. Old bodies are particulalry unattractive to the young, and when I see a young woman with an older man in what is clearly a sexual type relationship I empathize with her and I know just how repulsive that old man is to her physically. I know from my own youth and also from innumerable conversations with young Thai bar girls/prostitutes. Years ago I used to work for an NGO upcountry and would come to Bangkok monthly for a meeting. Our per diems weren't much so I usually stayed in places like the Federal or Miami, and departing at 7 AM for a meeting the only ones in the eleevators besides me were the tired, sad looking working girls going home. I would talk to them and I only wish I had tape recordings of what they had to say about the men they'd been with. This idea that women don't care so much about looks is overdone. We are not as fixated on looks as many men seem to be, and there is a wider range of looks deemed attractive in men, but no young woman is un-repulsed by a fat, balding pot-bellied 50 year old. None.

I remember once having my hair done at small shop on a soi. In the chair next to me was a middle aged farang, fat, balding and smelling none too sweet. Off to the side was his "companion", a clearly hired for the purpose bored lloking girl of maybe 20. Establishing early on that he spoke no Thai, the staff of the shop had a field day commenting on him, his smell, his resemblance to a pig, asking the girl how much she got paid for enduring this and how could she stand it. She grimaced and said it was pretty awful ..etc etc the banter went on. Finally catching on that he was the subject of all this chatter the man asked his companion what was being said. In a flat, mechanical voice she said " They say you very handsome". He bridled with pride. He believed this. I just wished I could have captured it all on film, with subtitles. To me, this incident sums it all up.

As women, we naturally identify with the female half of the old guy having "fun with a hot young chick". And the fact is, from the female side of this equation it is a very ugly picture.

[britmaveric]

Dont see thai/farang - I see man/woman - anything else shows more about the person making negative comments than the subject of the comments.

[kerryk]

Maybe for some Sheryl, but I don't think all. I think some of them are emotionally and intellectually mature, but they just don't care. They don't value women as women, only as objects and as a means to gratify their sexual egos. That's why it is so easy for them to pay for relationships and arrangements in which they have very little commong ground.

I think they either had those values to begin with, or they allowed the worst elements of male behavior and vanity to flourish in an atmosphere conducive to such attitudes.

Maybe we have different definitions of maturity.

For me. outgrowing the narcissism which is natural in children and coming to recognize the legitimacy of the needs and wishes of other people -- as well as development of a natural empathy, recognition that one is not the center of the world, ability ot delay or forgo gratification when necessary, are the very essence of being emotional mature. Most of these guys fail on all counts. What I see is an infantile narcissism which they are better able to indulge here than in the west. But, like all narcussism, indulging it just feeds it and makes it worse.

Switching tracks for a moment..I have been thinking about what it is that makes the idea of a sexual relationship across very wide age gaps so repulsive to me. I think it's two things. One is the incest taboo, which just seems to be to be normal to human beings...it just is not normal for people old enough to be the parent to be sexualy involved with someone the age of their child (or the age theirchild would be if they had one).

The other point is the natural repugnance that age has in the eyes of youth. There is no question that young bodies are more beautiful than old ones. Old bodies are particulalry unattractive to the young, and when I see a young woman with an older man in what is clearly a sexual type relationship I empathize with her and I know just how repulsive that old man is to her physically. I know from my own youth and also from innumerable conversations with young Thai bar girls/prostitutes. Years ago I used to work for an NGO upcountry and would come to Bangkok monthly for a meeting. Our per diems weren't much so I usually stayed in places like the Federal or Miami, and departing at 7 AM for a meeting the only ones in the eleevators besides me were the tired, sad looking working girls going home. I would talk to them and I only wish I had tape recordings of what they had to say about the men they'd been with. This idea that women don't care so much about looks is overdone. We are not as fixated on looks as many men seem to be, and there is a wider range of looks deemed attractive in men, but no young woman is un-repulsed by a fat, balding pot-bellied 50 year old. None.

I remember once having my hair done at small shop on a soi. In the chair next to me was a middle aged farang, fat, balding and smelling none too sweet. Off to the side was his "companion", a clearly hired for the purpose bored lloking girl of maybe 20. Establishing early on that he spoke no Thai, the staff of the shop had a field day commenting on him, his smell, his resemblance to a pig, asking the girl how much she got paid for enduring this and how could she stand it. She grimaced and said it was pretty awful ..etc etc the banter went on. Finally catching on that he was the subject of all this chatter the man asked his companion what was being said. In a flat, mechanical voice she said " They say you very handsome". He bridled with pride. He believed this. I just wished I could have captured it all on film, with subtitles. To me, this incident sums it all up.

As women, we naturally identify with the female half of the old guy having "fun with a hot young chick". And the fact is, from the female side of this equation it is a very ugly picture.

I guess the incest taboo would only apply to Farang and Farang relationships because it would be obvious if it were a Thai and Farang it could not be incest.

Your quote, “but no young woman is un-repulsed by a fat, balding pot-bellied 50 year old. None.

I have to ask do you really feel comfortable speaking the entire female population of the planet earth?

I wonder if you are speaking for Jackie Kennedy or Maria Callas.

Have you ever seen a pic of Mick Jagger or Rod Stewart in a bathing suit? Maybe fat is not so bad.

When I was in college I had affairs with two older women. One was actually quite famous the other was the most brilliant person I had ever met.

I can only speak for myself and I really don’t know if it is a gender thing or a personal thing.

In both relationships the women broke them off. The first because she returned to her husband the second because she was moved back to Paris. One was a twenty year age difference and the other was a thirty year age difference.

I have to tell you I felt privileged to be in their company and privileged to meet the people they introduced me to.

I met literary celebrities and academic celebrities and actually had dinner with them and talked with them at teas and cocktail parties. It was one of the most exciting periods of my life and I have nothing but fond memories of the experience. I still remember how I met them both, what they said and how the relationship changed from friends to lovers.

What do I see when I see a Farang and Thai couple?

I have a 58 year old friend who is a well known person in Australia. He has been married to a young Thai woman for 5 years, she is 23 and they have three children. She shows him off at every opportunity and both her and her children dote on the guy.

I was on a three hour bus ride and had nothing to do but look around. Next to me was a Farang and Thai couple. The older potbellied Farang man was asleep and his young Thai wife and child were seated next to him. The couple had matching everything, rings, watches and even matching shirts. While he slept she arranged his clothes so the AC would not blow directly on him and fussed about making sure he was comfortable while he slept.

You may have another explanation for it but to me caring about someone while they sleep is an unselfish act of love because the person will never know what you have done.

I think you paint young women and old pot bellied men with a very broad brush. There are some women both Thai and Farang that are attracted to men or women based on the whole package and not just age or appearance. There are some women both Thai and Farang who are turned on by the whole package and not just physical appearance.

There are some people who see a Farang Thai couple as two people and do not make judgments about them based of age or appearance.

[sbk]

True kerryk, but then, lets put the shoe on the other foot shall we? I am a farang woman with a Thai husband. We are the same age, married young (still youngish ) and appear to be very normal, ie no tats, no dreads, normal clothes.

Once we leave our island we get stared at. Thais and farangs alike. Usually Thai men have the "wink wink nudge nudge how do I get me one of those" things going on, the Thai women can be nice and friendly (older women usually) or hostile (younger women). And farang men? Off the island he either gets condescending behavior or dirty looks. And the worst behavior my husband encountered was from white guys in the US.

I guess they assume I am sullying the purity of the race or something. So, do not feel sorry for the poor white man with his Thai wife any more than you would feel sorry for me. My husband and I know what our relationship is and anyone who doesn't like it doesn't really matter, do they? If anyone dared to be rude, well, I have enough mouth for the two of us and my husband has the firepower to back me up

So, you see, its not just the farang guy with the Thai wife that gets it.

[kerryk]

True kerryk, but then, lets put the shoe on the other foot shall we? I am a farang woman with a Thai husband. We are the same age, married young (still youngish ) and appear to be very normal, ie no tats, no dreads, normal clothes.

Once we leave our island we get stared at. Thais and farangs alike. Usually Thai men have the "wink wink nudge nudge how do I get me one of those" things going on, the Thai women can be nice and friendly (older women usually) or hostile (younger women). And farang men? Off the island he either gets condescending behavior or dirty looks. And the worst behavior my husband encountered was from white guys in the US.

I guess they assume I am sullying the purity of the race or something. So, do not feel sorry for the poor white man with his Thai wife any more than you would feel sorry for me. My husband and I know what our relationship is and anyone who doesn't like it doesn't really matter, do they? If anyone dared to be rude, well, I have enough mouth for the two of us and my husband has the firepower to back me up

So, you see, its not just the farang guy with the Thai wife that gets it.

No, I wouldn’t feel sorry for you. But I certainly would not give you any dirty looks. The young Farang women that I was having a problem with were with Rasta types that were involved in some unsavory activities. I really don’t have a problem with Rasta types but I can recognize prison tattoos when I see them. It was like these guys were carrying around a sign that said I am a real bad boy.

I have also seen what you are talking about by Farang men and think it is the height of hypocrisy.

Why are the older Thai women friendly and the younger women not?

As for Thai men wanting one, nothing much has changed, remember the “King and I.”

[kat]

KERRYK:

I am hesitant to answer your statements because I want to stay on topic. I don’t want to rant about Western women.

I think what you said was that when you see a Farang man and a Thai woman you are only upset if there is very young woman and a very old man.

You said this means the man hates women. I said I don’t think that is the case.

I would love to debate that but I fear it is not on topic.

END KERRYK

BEGIN KAT QUOTE:

Well, I think if it is a genuine discussion it should be ok. But if not, we can continue our discussion through PMs. Why don't you try to PM me if you want to discuss points that you are reluctant to discuss here.

Back to this discussion: I did not say that I am only upset when I see an old farang man and very young Thai woman. If you read what I say back in the first post, I am mostly upset by the attitudes of the old men that are prevelant in that type of relationship in Asia. I find the attitudes and the values of many of those men to overwhelmingly exhibit clear misogynist aspects.

As a modern Western woman, I also have a problem with men who say they do not like what has happened to the West because of a greater independence of Western women. I can understand feelings of nostalgia and a preference for things old-fashioned or traditional - I can even understand fear and confusion. No one is perfect, and that definitely includes Western culture and Western women.

But when I hear men say this, I can only conclude that they think the emancipation, independence and progress of women over the last thirty years is a bad thing, and I have a serious problem with this. To me, that is no different than having a nostalgic feeling for the pre-Civil Rights era, during Jim Crow and before the vote, when things were oh so simple

Yeah, back then our mothers had to marry the men that they wanted to be such as doctors, lawyers, engineers, even if they were highly educated themselves. They had to marry the first man that got them pregnant, wear pretty dresses, perfect hair all the time, host the perfect dinner parties for their husband's colleagues, and be very careful not to be too outspoken or too intelligent, so that they don't sully the image of the "perfect lady".

And we can see how far that's gotten women in Thailand.

END KAT QUOTE

Maybe we have different definitions of maturity.

For me. outgrowing the narcissism which is natural in children and coming to recognize the legitimacy of the needs and wishes of other people -- as well as development of a natural empathy, recognition that one is not the center of the world, ability ot delay or forgo gratification when necessary, are the very essence of being emotional mature. Most of these guys fail on all counts. What I see is an infantile narcissism which they are better able to indulge here than in the west. But, like all narcussism, indulging it just feeds it and makes it worse.

Switching tracks for a moment..I have been thinking about what it is that makes the idea of a sexual relationship across very wide age gaps so repulsive to me. I think it's two things. One is the incest taboo, which just seems to be to be normal to human beings...it just is not normal for people old enough to be the parent to be sexualy involved with someone the age of their child (or the age theirchild would be if they had one).

The other point is the natural repugnance that age has in the eyes of youth. There is no question that young bodies are more beautiful than old ones. Old bodies are particulalry unattractive to the young, and when I see a young woman with an older man in what is clearly a sexual type relationship I empathize with her and I know just how repulsive that old man is to her physically. I know from my own youth and also from innumerable conversations with young Thai bar girls/prostitutes. Years ago I used to work for an NGO upcountry and would come to Bangkok monthly for a meeting. Our per diems weren't much so I usually stayed in places like the Federal or Miami, and departing at 7 AM for a meeting the only ones in the eleevators besides me were the tired, sad looking working girls going home. I would talk to them and I only wish I had tape recordings of what they had to say about the men they'd been with. This idea that women don't care so much about looks is overdone. We are not as fixated on looks as many men seem to be, and there is a wider range of looks deemed attractive in men, but no young woman is un-repulsed by a fat, balding pot-bellied 50 year old. None.

I remember once having my hair done at small shop on a soi. In the chair next to me was a middle aged farang, fat, balding and smelling none too sweet. Off to the side was his "companion", a clearly hired for the purpose bored lloking girl of maybe 20. Establishing early on that he spoke no Thai, the staff of the shop had a field day commenting on him, his smell, his resemblance to a pig, asking the girl how much she got paid for enduring this and how could she stand it. She grimaced and said it was pretty awful ..etc etc the banter went on. Finally catching on that he was the subject of all this chatter the man asked his companion what was being said. In a flat, mechanical voice she said " They say you very handsome". He bridled with pride. He believed this. I just wished I could have captured it all on film, with subtitles. To me, this incident sums it all up.

As women, we naturally identify with the female half of the old guy having "fun with a hot young chick". And the fact is, from the female side of this equation it is a very ugly picture.

Sheryl, this is an excellent post, but now I'm going to do the waffling for a moment. I think very large age gaps (30 years or more) are not natural, but I do think there may be exceptions sometimes.

But - and this is the controversial waffling bit - sometimes there may be genuine attraction in certain age group combinations. I guess I am biased as to whether there could be a genuine physical/sexual/emotional attraction, because that's the only way one could justify it as the exception it would normally be, especially for much younger people. What I see most often here is that it is rooted in security and money, and that is just another version of prostitution.

I don't really think of it as incestuous all the time, but the association is undeniable when it is a teenage or very young 20-something with a man who is more than old enough to be her father or grandfather. Why on earth would a 50-60 year old man need to start a relationship with a teenager? I don't care how romantic or Norman Rockwell it is in appearances, to me this is like formalized sexual abuse, especially in the Philippines and in other economically disadvantaged countries where the girls are used as little more than livestock to guarantee a finacially secure and/or lucrative future for her family. And for me, this is also part of misogyny. It is an indifference to the full humanity of a female, to her entitlement to her own sexuality and thoughts and ideas, unfettered by her duty and value as a commodity to be sold on the hairy old man market (or any market), whether he be Asian or foreign.

*edit clarity

Edited July 27, 2006 by kat

[cobra]

We stare because we fancy the men ourselves!!

I knew it !!

[Boo]

my man is the best looking in the whole world though, so who gives a monkies what or who you guys do

[kerryk]

KERRYK:

I am hesitant to answer your statements because I want to stay on topic. I don’t want to rant about Western women.

I think what you said was that when you see a Farang man and a Thai woman you are only upset if there is very young woman and a very old man.

You said this means the man hates women. I said I don’t think that is the case.

I would love to debate that but I fear it is not on topic.

END KERRYK

BEGIN KAT QUOTE:

Well, I think if it is a genuine discussion it should be ok. But if not, we can continue our discussion through PMs. Why don't you try to PM me if you want to discuss points that you are reluctant to discuss here.

Back to this discussion: I did not say that I am only upset when I see an old farang man and very young Thai woman. If you read what I say back in the first post, I am mostly upset by the attitudes of the old men that are prevelant in that type of relationship in Asia. I find the attitudes and the values of many of those men to overwhelmingly exhibit clear misogynist aspects.

As a modern Western woman, I also have a problem with men who say they do not like what has happened to the West because of a greater independence of Western women. I can understand feelings of nostalgia and a preference for things old-fashioned or traditional - I can even understand fear and confusion. No one is perfect, and that definitely includes Western culture and Western women.

But when I hear men say this, I can only conclude that they think the emancipation, independence and progress of women over the last thirty years is a bad thing, and I have a serious problem with this. To me, that is no different than having a nostalgic feeling for the pre-Civil Rights era, during Jim Crow and before the vote, when things were oh so simple

Yeah, back then our mothers had to marry the men that they wanted to be such as doctors, lawyers, engineers, even if they were highly educated themselves. They had to marry the first man that got them pregnant, wear pretty dresses, perfect hair all the time, host the perfect dinner parties for their husband's colleagues, and be very careful not to be too outspoken or too intelligent, so that they don't sully the image of the "perfect lady".

And we can see how far that's gotten women in Thailand.

END KAT QUOTE

Maybe we have different definitions of maturity.

For me. outgrowing the narcissism which is natural in children and coming to recognize the legitimacy of the needs and wishes of other people -- as well as development of a natural empathy, recognition that one is not the center of the world, ability ot delay or forgo gratification when necessary, are the very essence of being emotional mature. Most of these guys fail on all counts. What I see is an infantile narcissism which they are better able to indulge here than in the west. But, like all narcussism, indulging it just feeds it and makes it worse.

Switching tracks for a moment..I have been thinking about what it is that makes the idea of a sexual relationship across very wide age gaps so repulsive to me. I think it's two things. One is the incest taboo, which just seems to be to be normal to human beings...it just is not normal for people old enough to be the parent to be sexualy involved with someone the age of their child (or the age theirchild would be if they had one).

The other point is the natural repugnance that age has in the eyes of youth. There is no question that young bodies are more beautiful than old ones. Old bodies are particulalry unattractive to the young, and when I see a young woman with an older man in what is clearly a sexual type relationship I empathize with her and I know just how repulsive that old man is to her physically. I know from my own youth and also from innumerable conversations with young Thai bar girls/prostitutes. Years ago I used to work for an NGO upcountry and would come to Bangkok monthly for a meeting. Our per diems weren't much so I usually stayed in places like the Federal or Miami, and departing at 7 AM for a meeting the only ones in the eleevators besides me were the tired, sad looking working girls going home. I would talk to them and I only wish I had tape recordings of what they had to say about the men they'd been with. This idea that women don't care so much about looks is overdone. We are not as fixated on looks as many men seem to be, and there is a wider range of looks deemed attractive in men, but no young woman is un-repulsed by a fat, balding pot-bellied 50 year old. None.

I remember once having my hair done at small shop on a soi. In the chair next to me was a middle aged farang, fat, balding and smelling none too sweet. Off to the side was his "companion", a clearly hired for the purpose bored lloking girl of maybe 20. Establishing early on that he spoke no Thai, the staff of the shop had a field day commenting on him, his smell, his resemblance to a pig, asking the girl how much she got paid for enduring this and how could she stand it. She grimaced and said it was pretty awful ..etc etc the banter went on. Finally catching on that he was the subject of all this chatter the man asked his companion what was being said. In a flat, mechanical voice she said " They say you very handsome". He bridled with pride. He believed this. I just wished I could have captured it all on film, with subtitles. To me, this incident sums it all up.

As women, we naturally identify with the female half of the old guy having "fun with a hot young chick". And the fact is, from the female side of this equation it is a very ugly picture.

Sheryl, this is an excellent post, but now I'm going to do the waffling for a moment. I think very large age gaps (30 years or more) are not natural, but I do think there may be exceptions sometimes.

But - and this is the controversial waffling bit - sometimes there may be genuine attraction in certain age group combinations. I guess I am biased as to whether there could be a genuine physical/sexual/emotional attraction, because that's the only way one could justify it as the exception it would normally be, especially for much younger people. What I see most often here is that it is rooted in security and money, and that is just another version of prostitution.

I don't really think of it as incestuous all the time, but the association is undeniable when it is a teenage or very young 20-something with a man who is more than old enough to be her father or grandfather. Why on earth would a 50-60 year old man need to start a relationship with a teenager? I don't care how romantic or Norman Rockwell it is in appearances, to me this is like formalized sexual abuse, especially in the Philippines and in other economically disadvantaged countries where the girls are used as little more than livestock to guarantee a finacially secure and/or lucrative future for her family. And for me, this is also part of misogyny. It is an indifference to the full humanity of a female, to her entitlement to her own sexuality and thoughts and ideas, unfettered by her duty and value as a commodity to be sold on the hairy old man market (or any market), whether he be Asian or foreign.

*edit clarity

Yup I agree. Some of the attitudes of some of the Farang men here are far more bitter than anything I have ever seen in the Western world or when I was here long ago.

I have a lot of Australian male friends. I thought the US divorce courts were hard on guys but they are not even close to Australia according to these guys.

As much as I like them and we go way back, back to Vietnam but they are incensed about the fortunes lost and tied up in litigation.

I could tell you how much I lost in divorces and you would lose your breath for a minute but it is not as bad as the Australian guys.

Or maybe it is my attitude of not crying about spilt milk that makes it easier for me.

There is not a darn thing I can do about the past.

They refer to all Western woman as fatty chooks but it is not reality speaking or hate for women it is a bitterness about financial loss.

There is an old Texas expression about “you can mess with my dog and you can mess with my wife and you can mess with my horse but don’t mess with my money.”

The guys have been hurt in the pocket book and are lashing out at the enemy which they perceive as women when in reality it is the system.

I have wanted to for a while and I think I should start another thread about exactly what you are talking about, emancipation, independence, and progress of women is a bad thing.

Bear with me for a moment through one example.

Premise, women started organized crime in America. Sounds outlandish, right?

Would prohibition have been introduced without feminine pressure? Probably not. Was there organized crime in America before prohibition? Absolutely not. Did prohibition start organized crime in America? Yes it did.

I think most educated men who have thought about it trace emancipation and the changes it caused to the early 1900’s.

Think about how many things have happened since woman got the vote.

A did you know questions? 1. Britain gave women the right to vote in 1918 but not all women. Men could vote at 21 but how old did a woman have to be to vote and why?

1918 may seem like a long time ago to you but my father was alive in 1918 and so were most fathers of the old ex pats that now reside in Thailand.

Your quote

“ Yeah, back then our mothers had to marry the men that they wanted to be such as doctors, lawyers, engineers, even if they were highly educated themselves. They had to marry the first man that got them pregnant, wear pretty dresses, perfect hair all the time, host the perfect dinner parties for their husband's colleagues, and be very careful not to be too outspoken or too intelligent, so that they don't sully the image of the "perfect lady".

You are spot on. That is the generation that I grew up with. That is the generation that was in power when all of my principles were formed. That is the generation that gave me my compass to live by.

It is not a pre civil war thing. It is my father and mother. My grandmother when a child did not have the right to vote.

It is old history to you but to me at night I still have dreams about the pleasant times I spent at grandmothers home.

Life was orderly, pleasant and without divorce or riots. No one locked their doors. Their was little crime. I walked or rode my bike to school with no fear. There were no metal detectors in airports. There were no terrorists. There were no gangs. Life was good. Gays were in the closet. Feminists were writing books in Paris. And things were about to explode but I didn’t know it.

To wrap up this slightly off topic post. I will post another topic in the General forum about how historical changes have effected Western people living in Thailand and why that is different from the effect of people in the Western world.

[kayo]

my man is the best looking in the whole world though, so who gives a monkies what or who you guys do

[kerryk]

Just one more thing before I go to bed.

Physical attraction that I assume leads to sexual fulfillment.

Of the waking hours in an average year what percent is spent on sexual fulfillment?

How bright is it to base a relationship on physical compatibility or sexual attraction?

At 16 years of age I can see basing a relationship on physical desires after that I would question the maturity or intelligence of the person doing so.

[somchai jones]

True kerryk, but then, lets put the shoe on the other foot shall we? I am a farang woman with a Thai husband. We are the same age, married young (still youngish ) and appear to be very normal, ie no tats, no dreads, normal clothes.

Once we leave our island we get stared at. Thais and farangs alike. Usually Thai men have the "wink wink nudge nudge how do I get me one of those" things going on, the Thai women can be nice and friendly (older women usually) or hostile (younger women). And farang men? Off the island he either gets condescending behavior or dirty looks. And the worst behavior my husband encountered was from white guys in the US.

I guess they assume I am sullying the purity of the race or something. So, do not feel sorry for the poor white man with his Thai wife any more than you would feel sorry for me. My husband and I know what our relationship is and anyone who doesn't like it doesn't really matter, do they? If anyone dared to be rude, well, I have enough mouth for the two of us and my husband has the firepower to back me up

So, you see, its not just the farang guy with the Thai wife that gets it.

What you've said really surprises me, SBK.

You are the same age, nothing outrageous about you and yet your husband gets hassle in US.

Nothing but all out racism. We've never encountered anything like this when we've been in UK; something that's rather endeared me to the old place.

[Soju]

The other point is the natural repugnance that age has in the eyes of youth. There is no question that young bodies are more beautiful than old ones. Old bodies are particulalry unattractive to the young, and when I see a young woman with an older man in what is clearly a sexual type relationship I empathize with her and I know just how repulsive that old man is to her physically. I know from my own youth and also from innumerable conversations with young Thai bar girls/prostitutes. Years ago I used to work for an NGO upcountry and would come to Bangkok monthly for a meeting. Our per diems weren't much so I usually stayed in places like the Federal or Miami, and departing at 7 AM for a meeting the only ones in the eleevators besides me were the tired, sad looking working girls going home. I would talk to them and I only wish I had tape recordings of what they had to say about the men they'd been with. This idea that women don't care so much about looks is overdone. We are not as fixated on looks as many men seem to be, and there is a wider range of looks deemed attractive in men, but no young woman is un-repulsed by a fat, balding pot-bellied 50 year old. None.

You came to that conclusion from talking to prostitutes. I doubt there are many prostitutes who like what they are doing. They like the money and probably find their customer repulsive no matter what age or physical shape he's in. They find him repulsive because there is no love in the relationship.

Now take another couple where the man is a balding, pot-bellied 50 year old with a young woman, but they are in love. She may have initially be put off by his physical appearance, but soon learned to look past the physical side and fell in love with his personality, his kindness, etc. Have you ever heard the expression, "love is blind"? Physical attraction is often the thing that brings two people together, but it can NEVER be a lasting bond that keeps two people together. Love is what keeps a relationship going over the long-haul.

I cannot speak for everyone, but based on all I've spoken to, people's ideas of what is physically attractive in the opposite sex does not change as one ages. A man finds a young woman to be attractive whether he's 20, 50, or 80. Likewise he finds an elderly woman to be unattractive whether he's 20, 50, or 80. Many old couples, who's bodies have long since progressed from being attractive to being quite unattractive still stay together and are very much in love and very much attracted to each other, not for physical reasons, but for other reasons. If any of these couples were able to look at their partner objectively, I'm sure they would find their partner's bodies to be repulsive, but because love is blind, they never think of it.

I have a wife in her early twenties, and while I'm not yet in my fifties, I'm still old enough to be her father. I'm sure she doesn't find me physically very attractive, but I believe that mentally and personality-wise I am attractive to her. She could have easily found a young and handsome man at the drop of a hat if she wanted to. But she didn't. I have no doubts that my money has something to do with it. She's definitely not a gold-digger and spends very little money. But a basic need of all women, or all people for that matter, is one of security. Financial security is a very basic need and it would be difficult for a young woman in Thailand, coming from a poor region of the country, to find a young handsome man who could provide for her financial security while allowing her the opportunity to attend university and meet her goals. Certainly there are numerous older Thai men who are willing to provide for her financially, but that would typically be as a mia noi. My wife had many older Thai men approach her with the intent of finding a mia noi, but she rejected all of them because she wanted a man who could provide her needs and devote 100% of himself to her.

I find most women (Thai or Westerner) of my age to be physically unattractive. And certainly the idea of myself having a physical relationship with someone of my age or older would range from being slightly repulsive to extremely repulsive. But I'm sure that I'll still be in love with my wife as she ages and even when she is no longer physically attractive, I'm sure I'll still love her and that my love for her will blind her unattractiveness.

When finding a mate, age itself should not be that important except in the case where one wants to have offspring. But there needs to be some sort of attraction between the two that holds them together long enough for a love to develop. In many older men - younger women relationships, the initial attraction the man has to the woman is physical, while the initial attraction the woman has to the man is often one of security. It is only natural, given the economics of Thailand vs. Farangland, that we see so many of these relationships involving Thai women but not many involving Western women.

I think it's only natural that women empathize with a young woman with an older unattractive man. Likewise, if I saw an elderly woman with a young man, I might be tempted to empathize with him. We tend to empathize with someone of the same sex in that situation because we put ourself in their situation and think of how physically repulsive we would find their partner to be. But if we stop for a minute and think that the couple might actually be in love with each other, then we realize that we have no right to criticize their relationship based on their age. Even in some situations where the woman may not be in love, maybe she is getting her financial or other needs met. We may feel sorry for her that she has to go through life not in love with the man she's married to, and has to put up with his unattractiveness. But in many cases her alternative would be even worse. Living a life in poverty where everyday is a struggle to meet even the most basic needs versus living a life where all your needs are met except of being in love with an attractive partner. Which life is worse? We cannot say because we are not in such a financial situation. It is for her to decide which fate is best for her.

There are a huge number of couples in this world of similar age to each other who initially were in love but then fell out of love, yet stay together for whatever reason, be it for their children's sake, for financial reasons, etc. What is worse - for a woman to be married to an attractive man her own age but not be in love with him, or to be married to an older, unattractive man that she is in love with? I know which one I'd choose if I was her. If I was a Thai woman, finding a good man who I could love and who would love me in return and stay with me no matter what would probably be much more important that physical appearance. Likewise as a man, I look for other qualities in a woman first before physical attractiviness. Of course if I can get it all, why not? But seeking physical beauty in a partner without regard to other qualities is a recipe for diasaster.

Edited July 28, 2006 by Soju

[sbk]

True kerryk, but then, lets put the shoe on the other foot shall we? I am a farang woman with a Thai husband. We are the same age, married young (still youngish ) and appear to be very normal, ie no tats, no dreads, normal clothes.

Once we leave our island we get stared at. Thais and farangs alike. Usually Thai men have the "wink wink nudge nudge how do I get me one of those" things going on, the Thai women can be nice and friendly (older women usually) or hostile (younger women). And farang men? Off the island he either gets condescending behavior or dirty looks. And the worst behavior my husband encountered was from white guys in the US.

I guess they assume I am sullying the purity of the race or something. So, do not feel sorry for the poor white man with his Thai wife any more than you would feel sorry for me. My husband and I know what our relationship is and anyone who doesn't like it doesn't really matter, do they? If anyone dared to be rude, well, I have enough mouth for the two of us and my husband has the firepower to back me up

So, you see, its not just the farang guy with the Thai wife that gets it.

What you've said really surprises me, SBK.

You are the same age, nothing outrageous about you and yet your husband gets hassle in US.

Nothing but all out racism. We've never encountered anything like this when we've been in UK; something that's rather endeared me to the old place.

Thats correct somchai, but we don't just get it in the US but from farang men in Thailand as well. Most have the courtesy to be subtle but, in general, it is the condescending attitude that psses me and my husband off. The idea that somehow I must be supporting him and he is just a sponger (funny how that doesn't work the other way, tho , does it?) or that he is some ignorant country boy with no education either. Prejudice works both ways and it is often the men with the young Thai wives who display the most towards us. Not always, but it happens.

Like I said, what they think they know isn't anything at all . Everyone who takes the time to get to know my husband realizes that he is actuallly a very nice, well informed, intelligent guy with enough integrity and honesty for two people. I don't really bother much with dirty looks from farang guys (or thai girls either) as their opinion of me doesn't really count.

And, this is the way all these men moaning about "looks" from farang women should be too.

[jbowman1993]

What Do You Think When You See A Western Man And A Thai Woman?

This is what I think. If it doesn't hurt me, and it doesn't hurt you, or anybody else, than do what you want.

[Donz]

True kerryk, but then, lets put the shoe on the other foot shall we? I am a farang woman with a Thai husband. We are the same age, married young (still youngish ) and appear to be very normal, ie no tats, no dreads, normal clothes.

Once we leave our island we get stared at. Thais and farangs alike. Usually Thai men have the "wink wink nudge nudge how do I get me one of those" things going on, the Thai women can be nice and friendly (older women usually) or hostile (younger women). And farang men? Off the island he either gets condescending behavior or dirty looks. And the worst behavior my husband encountered was from white guys in the US.

I guess they assume I am sullying the purity of the race or something. So, do not feel sorry for the poor white man with his Thai wife any more than you would feel sorry for me. My husband and I know what our relationship is and anyone who doesn't like it doesn't really matter, do they? If anyone dared to be rude, well, I have enough mouth for the two of us and my husband has the firepower to back me up

So, you see, its not just the farang guy with the Thai wife that gets it.

What you've said really surprises me, SBK.

You are the same age, nothing outrageous about you and yet your husband gets hassle in US.

Nothing but all out racism. We've never encountered anything like this when we've been in UK; something that's rather endeared me to the old place.

Thats correct somchai, but we don't just get it in the US but from farang men in Thailand as well. Most have the courtesy to be subtle but, in general, it is the condescending attitude that psses me and my husband off. The idea that somehow I must be supporting him and he is just a sponger (funny how that doesn't work the other way, tho , does it?) or that he is some ignorant country boy with no education either. Prejudice works both ways and it is often the men with the young Thai wives who display the most towards us. Not always, but it happens.

Like I said, what they think they know isn't anything at all . Everyone who takes the time to get to know my husband realizes that he is actuallly a very nice, well informed, intelligent guy with enough integrity and honesty for two people. I don't really bother much with dirty looks from farang guys (or thai girls either) as their opinion of me doesn't really count.

And, this is the way all these men moaning about "looks" from farang women should be too.

Hey SBK, I know exactly how you guys feel, Im a halfy but most westerners just think im a fully.

In Oz I used to get all fulthy looks from western guys because im with a white woman, Im with a Thai girl now but all my other ex's have been farangs.

Not all guys give us a stare but there is queit a few, especially in the country areas, I even been in a fight because of it.

But I just put it down to jealousy, they just wish they could be me with a nice gf

[gisele]

True kerryk, but then, lets put the shoe on the other foot shall we? I am a farang woman with a Thai husband. We are the same age, married young (still youngish ) and appear to be very normal, ie no tats, no dreads, normal clothes.

Once we leave our island we get stared at. Thais and farangs alike. Usually Thai men have the "wink wink nudge nudge how do I get me one of those" things going on, the Thai women can be nice and friendly (older women usually) or hostile (younger women). And farang men? Off the island he either gets condescending behavior or dirty looks. And the worst behavior my husband encountered was from white guys in the US.

I guess they assume I am sullying the purity of the race or something. So, do not feel sorry for the poor white man with his Thai wife any more than you would feel sorry for me. My husband and I know what our relationship is and anyone who doesn't like it doesn't really matter, do they? If anyone dared to be rude, well, I have enough mouth for the two of us and my husband has the firepower to back me up

So, you see, its not just the farang guy with the Thai wife that gets it.

What you've said really surprises me, SBK.

You are the same age, nothing outrageous about you and yet your husband gets hassle in US.

Nothing but all out racism. We've never encountered anything like this when we've been in UK; something that's rather endeared me to the old place.

Thats correct somchai, but we don't just get it in the US but from farang men in Thailand as well. Most have the courtesy to be subtle but, in general, it is the condescending attitude that psses me and my husband off. The idea that somehow I must be supporting him and he is just a sponger (funny how that doesn't work the other way, tho , does it?) or that he is some ignorant country boy with no education either. Prejudice works both ways and it is often the men with the young Thai wives who display the most towards us. Not always, but it happens.

Like I said, what they think they know isn't anything at all . Everyone who takes the time to get to know my husband realizes that he is actuallly a very nice, well informed, intelligent guy with enough integrity and honesty for two people. I don't really bother much with dirty looks from farang guys (or thai girls either) as their opinion of me doesn't really count.

And, this is the way all these men moaning about "looks" from farang women should be too.

I agree with sbk, my husband and I have also had similar experiences in reference to "Usually Thai men have the "wink wink nudge nudge how do I get me one of those" things going on" or "in general, it is the condescending attitude that psses me and my husband off. The idea that somehow I must be supporting him and he is just a sponger (funny how that doesn't work the other way, tho , does it?) or that he is some ignorant country boy with no education either".

We try not to let it bother us, we know what our relationship is about.

We usually get the looks from Thai men whenever we are in Samui but not that much here in Nakhon.

[phibunmike]

Off topic, sorry, but a couple of interesting points here...

The divorce rate in Thailand is about 0.58 per 1000. In the US it's about 9x higher. (See divorcefoum)

How is the Thai divorce rate figure arrived at ? I know of a number of Thai "divorces" where there was never a civil wedding, only the traditional one, so I doubt thes would be included in the statistics. But to rural Thai people, the traditional ceremony is the one that counts, not the civil, so these are "real" marriages in every sense except the legal one.

What's also interesting is that the divorce rate for marriages from "mail-order bride"-type setups in the US is about half the national rate. Would this, too, be because of more family involvement?

When I first heard of relationships that started via the internet, I was very sceptical. But I have come to know a couple of very happy couples who met that way, and it got me thinking, "why ?". My theory is that, by meeting in chat rooms, people get to know each other by having common ideas, values, interests, etc., instead of being attracted initially by appearance alone. This could perhaps form a more sound basis for a long term relationship.

Sorry for the off-topic remarks, but I do think threads sometimes have a life of their own, and take us to more interesting places than we might originally have imagined.

[lingyai]

The other point is the natural repugnance that age has in the eyes of youth. There is no question that young bodies are more beautiful than old ones. Old bodies are particulalry unattractive to the young, and when I see a young woman with an older man in what is clearly a sexual type relationship I empathize with her and I know just how repulsive that old man is to her physically. I know from my own youth and also from innumerable conversations with young Thai bar girls/prostitutes. Years ago I used to work for an NGO upcountry and would come to Bangkok monthly for a meeting. Our per diems weren't much so I usually stayed in places like the Federal or Miami, and departing at 7 AM for a meeting the only ones in the eleevators besides me were the tired, sad looking working girls going home. I would talk to them and I only wish I had tape recordings of what they had to say about the men they'd been with. This idea that women don't care so much about looks is overdone. We are not as fixated on looks as many men seem to be, and there is a wider range of looks deemed attractive in men, but no young woman is un-repulsed by a fat, balding pot-bellied 50 year old. None.

Now take another couple where the man is a balding, pot-bellied 50 year old with a young woman, but they are in love. She may have initially be put off by his physical appearance, but soon learned to look past the physical side and fell in love with his personality, his kindness, etc. Have you ever heard the expression, "love is blind"? Physical attraction is often the thing that brings two people together, but it can NEVER be a lasting bond that keeps two people together. Love is what keeps a relationship going over the long-haul.

I have a wife in her early twenties, and while I'm not yet in my fifties, I'm still old enough to be her father. I'm sure she doesn't find me physically very attractive, but I believe that mentally and personality-wise I am attractive to her. She could have easily found a young and handsome man at the drop of a hat if she wanted to. But she didn't. I have no doubts that my money has something to do with it. She's definitely not a gold-digger and spends very little money. But a basic need of all women, or all people for that matter, is one of security. Financial security is a very basic need and it would be difficult for a young woman in Thailand, coming from a poor region of the country, to find a young handsome man who could provide for her financial security while allowing her the opportunity to attend university and meet her goals.

So because of the economics of her country and of her gender she has to get on a nearing middle age man.

I find most women (Thai or Westerner) of my age to be physically unattractive. And certainly the idea of myself having a physical relationship with someone of my age or older would range from being slightly repulsive to extremely repulsive. But I'm sure that I'll still be in love with my wife as she ages and even when she is no longer physically attractive, I'm sure I'll still love her and that my love for her will blind her unattractiveness.

I think it's only natural that women empathize with a young woman with an older unattractive man. Likewise, if I saw an elderly woman with a young man, I might be tempted to empathize with him. We tend to empathize with someone of the same sex in that situation because we put ourself in their situation and think of how physically repulsive we would find their partner to be. But if we stop for a minute and think that the couple might actually be in love with each other, then we realize that we have no right to criticize their relationship based on their age. Even in some situations where the woman may not be in love, maybe she is getting her financial or other needs met. We may feel sorry for her that she has to go through life not in love with the man she's married to, and has to put up with his unattractiveness. But in many cases her alternative would be even worse. Living a life in poverty where everyday is a struggle to meet even the most basic needs versus living a life where all your needs are met except of being in love with an attractive partner. Which life is worse? We cannot say because we are not in such a financial situation. It is for her to decide which fate is best for her.

There are a huge number of couples in this world of similar age to each other who initially were in love but then fell out of love, yet stay together for whatever reason, be it for their children's sake, for financial reasons, etc. What is worse - for a woman to be married to an attractive man her own age but not be in love with him, or to be married to an older, unattractive man that she is in love with? I know which one I'd choose if I was her. If I was a Thai woman, finding a good man who I could love and who would love me in return and stay with me no matter what would probably be much more important that physical appearance. Likewise as a man, I look for other qualities in a woman first before physical attractiviness. Of course if I can get it all, why not? But seeking physical beauty in a partner without regard to other qualities is a recipe for diasaster.

Well good she found you, it could have been worse is your arguement?

What is really too bad is that she does not come from a background were she could get the opportunities to go to university and have basic financial stabilty with out the need to find 20 year older man.

If she did then she could enjoy a partner who is young and not one who is she "doesn't find... physically very attractive"

Since you love her you must wish she had this chance right?

[Soju]

Well good she found you, it could have been worse is your arguement?

Yes, it could have been worse. And I'm sure it could have been better. Do any of us in life find the perfect mate where nobody else in the world could be better? I don't think so. What's your point?

What is really too bad is that she does not come from a background were she could get the opportunities to go to university and have basic financial stabilty with out the need to find 20 year older man.

If she did then she could enjoy a partner who is young and not one who is she "doesn't find... physically very attractive"

No, what is too bad is that some people don't have the slightest clue about something called "love". No need to say anything more about this because if you're someone who's ever experienced real love, then you'll understand what I'm talking about and if you've never experienced real love, then you may have the false impression that enjoying a young attractive partner is more important than love.

Since you love her you must wish she had this chance right?

If she decides that she doesn't love me and wants to be with a younger, more physically attractive man, then she's welcome to it and if she's happy in doing so then I'll be happy for her. I love her and just want what's best for her. Of course I would be devasted at the same time as being happy that she found what she was really looking for. If you love someone, you give them freedom to make their own decisions. My wife is free to make her own decisions and so far she has decided to stay with me.

[thohts]

Well good she found you, it could have been worse is your arguement?

What is really too bad is that she does not come from a background were she could get the opportunities to go to university and have basic financial stabilty with out the need to find 20 year older man.

If she did then she could enjoy a partner who is young and not one who is she "doesn't find... physically very attractive"

Since you love her you must wish she had this chance right?

If a Thai woman wants to be with an older man, a local or foreigner, so be it.

It may be better for that woman to seek out someone with a good heart and one who treats her with respect rather than a focusing on her partner being young and physically very attractive, as was suggested and implied.

Women generally mature faster and live longer than men. If the age difference is 5 years or 20+, whose business is it?

[kerryk]

If you look at young women who work in the entertainment and or hospitality industry you get a different picture than the average young woman.

Because of business interests I read a couple of Western forums populated by women and club owners. There is thread after thread about the problems of young Western men in clubs.

The major complaints are, they get drunk, travel in groups that don’t spend money and are constantly getting in fights and engaging in rowdy behavior.

I turned down a very attractive offer to purchase a bar/restaurant here because it was populated with primarily young Western tourists.

The employees in these business prefer older customers. I would submit after working in an club atmosphere for a couple of years and having negative experiences with young men that the employees change their natural preference from young men to older men. In addition, the men they interact with successfully on a daily basis tend to be older and become their dating pool. It is only natural that when they find a long term relationship their partners are older.

[beammeup]

I use to feel a little uneasy about walking with my wife in Bangkok, I wouldn't hold hands after reading a lot of negative comments about sex tourists walking hand in hand with their latest conquest. But after 10 years and my wifes determinened and persistant grabbing of my hand, I just go with the flow and happily walk hand in hand with my sweetheart, not carring what others think.

[hansnl43]

When I met my wife in Khon Kaen four years ago we didn't walk hand in hand and until now -she lives with me in Holland since three years- we still don't do it. Intimacy is for at home, we think.

In the beginning mostly older women looked at me, when they saw us together. I was a little bit embarressed. Not now any more. I don't do anything wrong, the only thing is that I am 63 and my wife is 40. Since three months her daughter (8yo) lives with us in Holland and we are happy.

[thaibebop]

It's strange, but I see post after post about what strangers think of the matching in question. I have had little problem with strangers. My problem has been with family. Many of family seems put off by the fact I didn't marry a white women, or an American, or a Christian. So, I wonder have any of you have problems with anyone closer to you about your choice in love and life?

[sbk]

It's strange, but I see post after post about what strangers think of the matching in question. I have had little problem with strangers. My problem has been with family. Many of family seems put off by the fact I didn't marry a white women, or an American, or a Christian. So, I wonder have any of you have problems with anyone closer to you about your choice in love and life?

Thats too bad, it doesn't make it any easier without family support.

No we haven't had any problems with my family. My husband is a very nice man and anyone who meets him tends to like him. Even my quite religious grandparents thought he was terrific. Never had any issues with anybody in my family. His family, well, his dad likes me. Not sure about the mom, but every woman has mother-in-law issues. Most of the extended family like me and one brother and one sister. the other brother, I am certain, doesn't but then, I don't think much of him either so it may not be a thai-farang thing, just mutual dislike

[lingyai]

Well good she found you, it could have been worse is your arguement?

Yes, it could have been worse. And I'm sure it could have been better. Do any of us in life find the perfect mate where nobody else in the world could be better? I don't think so. What's your point?

What is really too bad is that she does not come from a background were she could get the opportunities to go to university and have basic financial stabilty with out the need to find 20 year older man.

If she did then she could enjoy a partner who is young and not one who is she "doesn't find... physically very attractive"

No, what is too bad is that some people don't have the slightest clue about something called "love". No need to say anything more about this because if you're someone who's ever experienced real love, then you'll understand what I'm talking about and if you've never experienced real love, then you may have the false impression that enjoying a young attractive partner is more important than love.

Since you love her you must wish she had this chance right?

If she decides that she doesn't love me and wants to be with a younger, more physically attractive man, then she's welcome to it and if she's happy in doing so then I'll be happy for her. I love her and just want what's best for her. Of course I would be devasted at the same time as being happy that she found what she was really looking for. If you love someone, you give them freedom to make their own decisions. My wife is free to make her own decisions and so far she has decided to stay with me.

Of course she has, because she does not as you said have much of a chance of finding a young man that could give her the opportunity to pursue things like higher education. To say has a choice is like saying one has a choice between Pepsi and Coke.

Well good she found you, it could have been worse is your arguement?

What is really too bad is that she does not come from a background were she could get the opportunities to go to university and have basic financial stabilty with out the need to find 20 year older man.

If she did then she could enjoy a partner who is young and not one who is she "doesn't find... physically very attractive"

Since you love her you must wish she had this chance right?

If a Thai woman wants to be with an older man, a local or foreigner, so be it.

It may be better for that woman to seek out someone with a good heart and one who treats her with respect rather than a focusing on her partner being young and physically very attractive, as was suggested and implied.

Women generally mature faster and live longer than men. If the age difference is 5 years or 20+, whose business is it?

Where was it implied that a Thai woman should not be with older man if she wants?

Where was it implied that having a partner that was young and physically very attractive was better than a finding a partner that was respectful?

What is so amusing here is all the talk about love being of paramount importance and looks and youth being minor things. Nearly all of this is being put forth by old men who have gf/wives that are 20+ years younger. Many of these women coming from economically disadvantage backgrounds and would have much less opportunity if they had married someone who loved them that was their own age. None of these old guys looked past the physical, yet they love (no pun intended) to say oh, its all because of love.

Lets look at Soju’s relationship (am not trying to purposefully pick on you, but I do think some of your arguments are weak).

He talks about love being paramount and looks being secondary. But if only really cared about love he would have also looked at women his own age who he says he finds physically “slightly repulsive to extremely repulsive”

But he didn’t. So he cared about looks a lot more than he carries on.

His wife who in his own words would not have had much opportunity unless she married and 20+ year older guy as opposed to a young guy who loved her. She had to make the choice between marrying a man in Soju words “doesn't find... physically very attractive” and marrying a younger man and staying poor with little opportunity.

So Soju and others talk about love being much more important than looks, but they never had to make the choice between being with someone loving and young but offering little opportunity and someone loving but old and in Soju words “slightly repulsive to extremely repulsive” who offers opportunity.

In fact quite the opposite in Soju’s case. He was with someone young when he was young (I am not saying you are that old now). Then when he is in his own words at and age where young women like his wife don’t find him “physically very attractive” he will be with someone young.

According to him, his wife will be physically attractive for about 20-25 more years (as he says he finds women his age “slightly repulsive to extremely repulsive” and his wife will be around his age in about 25 years if she is in her early twenties and he is say around 47). When Soju’s wife reaches his age he will be about 72. Say he will live until 78. So for 5 years he will be with her when she is “slightly repulsive to extremely repulsive” but he says that “I’m sure I'll still love her and that my love for her will blind her unattractiveness.”

(how sweet).

So for 5 years out of his life he will be will a person who he find “slightly repulsive to extremely repulsive” but will love anyway…of course these 5 years will be when he is in his 70s and I would imagine physical activity is a lot less in that area.

Now lets look at his wife. Starting from her early 20s she is with someone that she doesn’t find physically attractive. If they stay together until he dies she will be single again around 52-53. Of course now she is “slightly repulsive to extremely repulsive” Do you think she is going to get anyone remotely physically attractive? No. Guys like Soju will not be looking for “true love” with her. So she again will find somebody who she doesn’t find physically attractive and live another 30 years dying at say 82-83 years old. She lived her whole life with much older men she doesn’t find physically unattractive and Soju lived nearly his whole life with women who were young.

This is because she made a choice based on economics and sacrificed being with someone she found physically attractive in order to have other opportunities.

I am blaming Soju and other men like him for the state of the economic situation many women in this and other areas of the world find themselves? No

I am I saying Soju is bad for marrying his wife? No

I am I saying she can’t have a good life? No

Do I find some of the arguments that Soju and others on this forum make about “true love” and seeing past physical attractiveness being pretty weak when none of them did? With out a doubt.

Next they will be telling us they read Playboy for the articles…

Edited August 4, 2006 by lingyai

[kat]

What is so amusing here is all the talk about love being of paramount importance and looks and youth being minor things. Nearly all of this is being put forth by old men who have gf/wives that are 20+ years younger. Many of these women coming from economically disadvantage backgrounds and would have much less opportunity if they had married someone who loved them that was their own age. None of these old guys looked past the physical, yet they love (no pun intended) to say oh, its all because of love.

Took the words right out of my mouth and then some. Excpet in the case of his wife aging, he says he will already be in love with her so he will not be repulsed. But, of course, she will always be at least 20+ years younger regardless of his age. Maybe what he is discussing here - and by extension what he expects of his wife - is that love is the great alchemist of age. However, his words suggest that only aging men are worthy of such a love. I guess in marriages of wide disparate backgrounds such love is worth quite a lot to some.