Norwegian Chiropractor arrested by Pattaya Immigration Police

[Zeegator]

The whole Work Permit system is riddled with corruption. Many I am sure would have no problem with applying for one and getting one legally, but I was made to sign a form saying that I was making 80,000 Bht clear every month even though on many months (especially after the 300 Bht minimum wage came in) I was actually losing money ! However I was being taxed on this hypothetical 80 thousand and was literally driven into bancruptcy. If everything was straight and above board things would be much better, and if this state of affairs could ever be achieved many would operate legally I am sure. Incidentally on a short trip to Bangkok it soon became clear that most of the waitresses are still being paid only 100 Bht per day, so one wonders and feels like a mug for paying the 300 - 400 Bht ! Silly me

If you hadn't falsely declared/confirmed your income perhaps you wouldn't be in the position that you put yourself in.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

This is the kind of nonsense, in the guise of being impartial, that gives credence to all sorts of quackery. It's nothing to do with East or West, it's down to hard-arsed evidence and efficacy .

Yeah heaven forbid. We don't want to start slipping up on the quackery. We could have men speaking for gods or fortune-tellers reading palms if we let our standards drop.

[Zeegator]

as chiropractic is quackery, one can only conclude that Thailand is better off.

Says you!

20 years ago I had a significant lower back problem. I was walking with a stick, in pain and being overtaken by old people with zimmer frames! My doctor advised I could have an operation but that the chances were 50:50 - success or failure which would result in a permanent need for a stick. Or I could, as he recommended try a chiropractor. I went for about 8 treatments. Very attractive and well qualified young lady who took her own x-rays, explained what she would do, had some very good equipment and, thankfully, was able to correct it. Several years later I was able to help coach a rugby football team, referee and return to teaching martial arts. I got back to a very good level of fitness. She worked out an exercise warm up and warm down program to help ensure the problem never returned, which to date is hasn't. She was expensive but my company insurance covered it.

That was my experience so not quackery.What was yours?

"Very attractive..."

Was the therapist's attractiveness important or relevant?

[arjunadawn]

My fiancé has a Thai medical license. I do not. My fiancé is a graduate of an accredited traditional Chinese medicine school in the USA also, as am I. This masters program is recognized throughout the world, even in Thailand- to a point. In Thailand an MD can practice acupuncture on patients with only 3 month crash course. This! This, is near condoning negligent medicine. MD or not, you cannot learn TCM in 90 days.

There are nearly 400 primary points alone, not counting speciality and extra points, meridians, syndromes, etc, etc. basically, they don't learn most of the points, only cardinal points. She has her own clinic, licensed, etc., but is now told she must take the 3 month course- the one she could teach blindfolded- after they approved her business model and opening. She's reluctantly doing it to remain compliant. It's totally upside down. Her post medical school education was translated and accepted and approved then an inspector came to clinic later... You get it. Thus I think the means here do seem quite Byzantium.

I cannot help her in clinic. I was told in order for me to legally work I'd need to challenge a Thai Chinese medicine board, in Thai, as the first step. Yes, it could be argued that my patients are Thai but I can't clear that hurdle now. So I do not practice anything, period. This chiro had, perhaps, similar choices but choose instead to place his family precariously before the law. I know the rules are screwy but others aren't breaking the law.

Your fiance has a licence to practice medicine in Thailand. If this was issued by the Thai Medical council then i am not sure what the problem is.

Nor am I. I am sure what I've said is accurate. She could explain better of course but insofar as the acupuncture goes, they prefer the 90 day tingtong course over the degree. As for me, well, I can't challenge a Thai board written/verbal for some years.

[EnglishJohn]

The work permit rules need changing so people aren't forced to work under the radar.

If someone wants to start their own small business but it won't make them enough money right from the start to run the company, pay 50,000 baht/month salary + pay the salary and tax for 4 other Thais as well then it is basically impossible.

Instead of bringing honest workers into the fold so the tax can be collected, the current policy is driving their business out of the country. It's incredibly short-sighted.

[NomadJoe]

Chiropractors have fallen out of favor with mainstream doctors in the US.

The best you can hope for is a good massage, the worst consequence is paralysis.

Not the kind of risk reward ratio worth trying.

I know a chiropractor who gave up his practice to go to law school.

I'm not sure if he is now doing more or less harm.

He probably realized how much money can be made being a personal injury/malpractice lawyer suing chiropractors. Smart guy.

I had a very dumb high school friend that after failing the training once, became a chiropractor.

[Zeegator]

Makes sense that after tightening immigration they'll go after those who have somehow passed the net. I wonder how long until they crack down on bar owners.

Owning a bar isn't illegal. Being an unlicenced chiropractor is.

[SiggiCM]

It's clear that he made a choice. His decision to operate as he did was probably a result of being ill advised.

Now he is at the mercy of the Thai immigration police and the Thai judicial system. Given the choice I'd take the Thai partner.

oh I like the smart TV members,

yes this guy was working illegal, but before you all shouting, kick this people out , they are illegal!

you all should start thinking, what are the laws and if the laws are fair and up to date.

You would choose the THAI partner? Wow you must be very rich and generously person, because

Thai law let you only max 49% of the bussiness, and for sure you have to pay 100% of the investment,

you will not find any thai partner who will put own money into the company.

Next many professions do not need a 2.000.000 baht company and 4 Thai staff to run,

50% of the legal WP peopel are anyway not leagal and break the way by you definition because their job description is not

excactly what they are doing in reality. It is a description only to get the work permit.

If a law isnt near reality it will for sure be broken in every country of the world !

You can be the best hairdresser in the world - you not allowed to work in thailand

you can be the boss of the mercedes forula 1 mechanic team, - you are not allowed to work in Thailand

You can be the best goldsmith in the world - you are not allowed to work in Thailand

and so on

I hope you will open one day a company with a thai partner and i guess after this you will never write such a stupid advice anymore

Thai Laws can be all the time against you, it doesnt matter what you are doing,

so no advises like they are breaking the law they have to face the punishedment

[SiggiCM]

Makes sense that after tightening immigration they'll go after those who have somehow passed the net. I wonder how long until they crack down on bar owners.

Owning a bar isn't illegal. Being an unlicenced chiropractor is.

yes but in the moment you instruct the staff, you change the WIFI password or your take a beer out of the fridge you working ilegal

it doesnt matter you invest Millions into your bar,

and show me 1 bar where a thai person invest own money with a farang,

there is not even 1 bar out of ten thausends owned by foreigners

[SiggiCM]

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This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

If the guy is un-qualified (he is a student) he would, IMHO, be a danger to the public especially if administering drugs.

Are you trying to say that there is a shortage of qualified Thais in this line of work? Or is it your experience that they need to be supervised by Westerners?

so you think a westener with many years expierence isnt qualified but a bar girl who make a 7 day course paid by her bf and open a massage shop is qualified? here are ten thausends of unqualified massage staff in Thailand and nobody cares

[arjunadawn]

My fiancé has a Thai medical license. I do not. My fiancé is a graduate of an accredited traditional Chinese medicine school in the USA also, as am I. This masters program is recognized throughout the world, even in Thailand- to a point. In Thailand an MD can practice acupuncture on patients with only 3 month crash course. This! This, is near condoning negligent medicine. MD or not, you cannot learn TCM in 90 days.

There are nearly 400 primary points alone, not counting speciality and extra points, meridians, syndromes, etc, etc. basically, they don't learn most of the points, only cardinal points. She has her own clinic, licensed, etc., but is now told she must take the 3 month course- the one she could teach blindfolded- after they approved her business model and opening. She's reluctantly doing it to remain compliant. It's totally upside down. Her post medical school education was translated and accepted and approved then an inspector came to clinic later... You get it. Thus I think the means here do seem quite Byzantium.

I cannot help her in clinic. I was told in order for me to legally work I'd need to challenge a Thai Chinese medicine board, in Thai, as the first step. Yes, it could be argued that my patients are Thai but I can't clear that hurdle now. So I do not practice anything, period. This chiro had, perhaps, similar choices but choose instead to place his family precariously before the law. I know the rules are screwy but others aren't breaking the law.

Your fiance has a licence to practice medicine in Thailand. If this was issued by the Thai Medical council then i am not sure what the problem is.

If she graduated from one of these schools then she should have no problem http://www.tmc.or.th/en_nameofrecognized-Foreign.php

Same would apply for you. Once you sit the council exam in Thai you too can legally practice medicine in Thailand

(This link to TMC- Thai Medical Council. The issue TCM- Traditional Chinese Medicine. Link are western medical not TCM schools). Thanks.

She can practice legal. Has license. My point which if I've missed I apologize, is Thai allows acupuncture to be practiced by licensed docs. She is. Thai recognizes various acupuncture schools around the world. Hers was recognized. The ok given. Another aspect of the Thai health inspectors, etc., later require her to go back to their 90 course. Basically she'll sit for 90 days with the same education (and greater- coz she's also MD) then the Chinese acupuncture teacher that's hired to teach the Thai MDs for 90 day course. It's absurd.

It's this weird thing they have but it's based on something familiar to us all. Thai medical does not want other treatment modalities practiced that steal their income. Like it or not acupuncture is increasingly used by many people. This same thing happened to chiropractors some years who in USA. Osteopathy was hardly a credible alternative to allopathy medicine. What chiropractors did, though, was brilliant. They modeled similar accreditation groups, standardized schooling, developed scope of practice, and tried to step on few toes. The American Med Assoc lowered their guard and chiropractic doctors slowly became mainstream and a viable alternative (personally, I think they overstate their capability but there's great musculoskeletal skills there).

Thai med system seems similar. I live with all Thai doctors and one Acupuncturist also. I get the constant background on this field. Don't think they should lower standards but perhaps clear the smoke.

Edited August 20, 2014 by arjunadawn

[KhnomKhnom]

1. Associate with an existing Thai run clinic.

2. Just do the work permit paperwork as an "Assistant"

3. Give good service and live happily and legally.

The work permit process, in some part, does allow some control on ONLY qualified people to work/practice medicine. No nation wants unqualified people doing work there. This can be one way to keep a govt eye on quality.

This "difficult work permit" is a bugaboo, bogus idea raised on this venue too often. It is very straightforward, requires lots of documents, yes, but is not nearly impossible nor overwhelming. Boilerplate must exist somewhere to help. The option to date, is if you can get by without it, why do it? Now we know no more Getting By.

In fact, bye bye, getting by.

[SiggiCM]

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Undercover foreign operative? They are really getting clever now.

If this Vince guy is as good as people say he is he should be able to find a way to sort out this mess he's in now, clear his fines, and come back. If he finds a Thai partner who is is licensed and accredited it wouldn't be too difficult to get a work permit.

Good practitioner are hard to come by and by all accounts this guy does a good job. Best advice is to find a Thai Doctor and work with him/ her. They form a partnership and then he gets a work permit under that arrangement.

this form of partnership isnt allowed by thai law,

make the bussiness on the name of a partner, wife, gf, whatever in the moment he work with customers it is ilegal, htats the funny thing in thai law

[SiggiCM]

Pomthai, on 20 Aug 2014 - 06:26, said:

Hopefully the undercover foreign operative had a work permit.

Undercover foreign operatives work under the Pattaya Police Department and the Chonburi Immigration. All carry I.D. Cards that are signed by the head of the police and this suffices for a work permit.

sorry but this isnt

if any of this foreigners get insured or break the law, it not the same like a real policeman, because in thai law

a policeman must have thai nationality

[Traveller45]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

With all due respect, I am quite positive that if he had wanted to, there are ways for him to have owned and operated such a practice legally with a work permit and with the correct visa. Most of the rest of us have managed to do so.

All the complaints about the proposed limits imposed on Student Visa's . . . this is why. So stop defending him and face the fact that however nice a guy he is, whatever good service he is providing, he is living and working illegally in Thailand, simple as that.

Ok. Agreed. Normally civilised countries sometimes have a method of REGULARISING a situation that is not ESSENTIALLY criminal, such as here. Ooops here they come with SWAT Team raiding the place as if it were a busy Mafia drug hub, using undercover agents and making fake purchases... really good to know that Police know how to do these things, I just wish they would do them elsewhere. No shortage of worthy targets. In this case, a neat letter by registered mail would have done it, you know

Edited August 20, 2014 by Traveller45

[ricklev]

Here is the current situation for foreign chiropractors in Thailand although things might have changed.

1. You need to be a licensed member of the Thai Chiropractic Association. The requirements include accredited chiropractic education and and a licensing exam which can be taken in English.

2. However, unofficially, the TCA has not been pursuing unlicensed chiropractors, foreign or Thai.

3. Hence some foreign chiropractors not licensed in Thailand have been able to get work permits as trainers/marketers/consultants etc.

http://www.thailandchiropractic.org/epage1.html

Edited August 20, 2014 by ricklev

[SiggiCM]

The man obviously thought he was an exceptional professional who did not need to respect the law of his host country. He was wrong. It is best that others take heed.

when you take a friend to town with your bike or car you are breaking thai law, this is a profession reserved for thai,

when you translate a letter for someone in a foreign laguage you are breaking the law,

you borough a friend money, you are breaking the law

so you want to be deported?

you are breaking law every day in thailand, because thai law is like somebody will tell you, not proved and explained like in western ccountries

[Thai at Heart]

Oh dear. Illegal surrogacy operations producing hundreds of kids in bangkok but the foreign crackdown produces a chiropractor.

Obviously muscling in on all those massage providers.

[SiggiCM]

The whole Work Permit system is riddled with corruption. Many I am sure would have no problem with applying for one and getting one legally, but I was made to sign a form saying that I was making 80,000 Bht clear every month even though on many months (especially after the 300 Bht minimum wage came in) I was actually losing money ! However I was being taxed on this hypothetical 80 thousand and was literally driven into bancruptcy. If everything was straight and above board things would be much better, and if this state of affairs could ever be achieved many would operate legally I am sure. Incidentally on a short trip to Bangkok it soon became clear that most of the waitresses are still being paid only 100 Bht per day, so one wonders and feels like a mug for paying the 300 - 400 Bht ! Silly me

so how many waitresses you have? you loosing money because you paid the 300 baht a day?

if yo have a´bussiness like this you should shut down, because make money by sucking out peopels work power and not have a good idea for bussiness is the worsed thing, and no waitress working for 100 baht a day, may be 100 baht an hour

[johnnysunshine]

When you read this you can see how many people this man has benefited and it is very unfortunate that some of the best contributions to Thailand like this man are not allowed here because of the archaic laws still in existence. I have seen chiropractors for 30-35 years now and I am so grateful for how they have restored my body into optimal balance and health. If you have never received the benefits of a chiropractor or naturopath please do not post negative comments ( or better yet, just SHUT UP) as you are only amplifying the liklihood of the very corrupt and incompetent global conventional medical industry and its partners in crime, the pharmaceutial industry, continuing their insidious and outdated healing modalities!

[SiggiCM]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

I agree.

there is NO ROOM for small businesses to set up in Thailand.

it forces people to go illegal.

a one-man business cant afford to employ several FULL TIME thai people.

Why cant Thailand create a "Small Business Visa" with perhaps allowance for 1 Thai staff.. (or part time staff).

and (as someone mentioned before), i wonder if the Foreign person that was used in this "sting operation" had a work visa, (because he would have been PAID (possibly) by the Police for his time and effort).

even if the Foreigner that the police used had a Work Visa, then it will have been valid ONLY FOR THE JOB THAT HE WAS PERMITTED TO DO... (not for a secondary job.

I would not be surprised at all if the police broke immigration rules to catch a man that was probably providing a good service that is hard to find in Thailand.

All the "GOOD" Chiropractors i have ever visited in Bkk are all Foreigners!!

"there is NO ROOM for small businesses to set up in Thailand. it forces people to go illegal."

No, nothing forces anyone to 'go illegal'. It's quite simple: if it's against the law, don't do it (or try to get the law changed). Sometimes it seems that people here hold foreigners in Thailand to a different set of standards than they would hold foreigners to back in their own countries.

i dont know your profession but in the western countrys many western peopel working ilegal in their own country for saving tax and because otherwise nobody could paid their work, repairing cars, building houses, fixing houses, water, electric installation, care for old people and so on

it is easy to say follow the rules, how long the rule not touching you, but if the are crossing your way you are wining

[SiggiCM]

.

It's a real shame because he really was is/was excellent , much better than his competition in north Pattaya

And that is the base problem.

How dare he be better at something.

although insecurity and unwillingness to allow foreigners to be perceived as clever does exist in thai society non thai's actually have taken and passed the thai chiropractic exam which is given in english or was in the past. i know someone that passed and was hired to work with a thai chiro.

he invested study time and a reasonable fee for the exam.

everybody pass an exam in thailand, this should not be the problem

[sweatalot]

He is the best chiropractor I have been to in Pattaya, and better than all but ne I have been to in Saudi Arabia and England.

Big loss to the community.

No, you don't need to go so far: There is well known and high recommended English DOCTOR in Chiang Mai: DR. PERRY,

look http://www.rajavejchiangmai.com/

I agree. I saw him two times. Already recommended him to my friends

[elgordo38]

Sure love to find a gooood Chiropractor in Chiang Mai. Tried that English fellow that works in one of the hospitals here but not to happy with his technique.

[IAMSOBAD]

Undercover Foreign Operatives to go after little crimes. What about the major crimes that affect foreign people? Go General Go after real criminals.

[WarProfiteer]

Well, when I think of the great crimes taking place in Thailand, this was right at the top of the list. How dare this guy...

I'm glad this was a priority for the police. Sure there are drug dealers and rapists and all sorts of violent crimes against tourists... but *this* needed to be stopped immediately.

Other crimes taking place in Thailand are obviously just child's play compared to being a good farang chiropractor.

Got an undercover foreign operative to paticipate and everything... well done, boys in brown... well done...

[sweatalot]

My ex UK wife ended up having spine surgery to remove a disc after visiting a similar set up in the UK...........

Your post wants to make believe the chiro made the surgery necessary. I do not believe that.

I do not know the case, but I guess what happened is the following:

She had a severe disk problem and hoped the chiro treatment would help.

So it was worth a try. After this not working because of severity she still had the option of surgery.

[Maggusoil]

Yes laws are always for the lowest common denominator, that lie, cheat, scrounge, evade and generally cannot come up with the goods.

So everyone else pays.

I have been a professional therapist for many years, accreditation was and is not easy, in order to maintain standards.

I doubt whether I could be bothered getting accredited here.

Not being accredited has nothing to do with the man's ability.

Being accredited does not guarantee he's any good either.

[nicolas18]

When you read this you can see how many people this man has benefited and it is very unfortunate that some of the best contributions to Thailand like this man are not allowed here because of the archaic laws still in existence. I have seen chiropractors for 30-35 years now and I am so grateful for how they have restored my body into optimal balance and health. If you have never received the benefits of a chiropractor or naturopath please do not post negative comments ( or better yet, just SHUT UP) as you are only amplifying the liklihood of the very corrupt and incompetent global conventional medical industry and its partners in crime, the pharmaceutial industry, continuing their insidious and outdated healing modalities!

I think you forgot to throw in the Illuminati in there somewhere. You know, just to add further credibility.

[Yahooka]

as chiropractic is quackery, one can only conclude that Thailand is better off.

What a load of &lt;deleted&gt;..... You're not a MD by any chance??