UK company pension payment to my Thai spouse upon my death

[davehowden]

Hello, and apologize if this is covered elsewhere.

My pension provider in the UK; not UK Gov; tells me that on my death a reduced pension is payable to my Thai spouse, but that it has to be paid net of UK tax.

Is this normal, can I arrange to get it paid gross somehow, how does she claim the tax deduction back (if she can).

Many thanks for any help.

[lungbing]

I believe your pension provider is right. If the income arises in the UK then UK tax is payable. But your wife should have a single person's tax allowance (currently GBP 10,000) to offset against the pension. So she will pay tax of 20% of the balance of (pension - allowance). If her pension is GBP 10,000 pa or less then no tax is payable anyway. She will need an NI number so might pay emergency tax at first until her tax code and NI number are sorted out.

All these figures are likely to change both at the whim of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the hopefully many years she remains your wife and not your widow!

[davehowden]

Thank you "Ungbing".

I wonder how she will manage to get an NI number, living as she does in Chiang Mai, any ideas?

[lungbing]

Certainly. As your widow she will need to aspply for the UK bereavement payment and bereavement allowance. The bereavement payment is a one-off, tax-free payment of about 2,000GBP and is payable no matter what her nationality or age at the time of your death. The bereavement allowance is paid on a sliding scale depending on her age at the time of your death. She must be at least 45 years old to be able to claim, and the older she is the more she gets but she cannot claim if she is of pensionable age when you die. An NI number will be allocated to her as part of this because the bereavement allowance is taxable.

Both the bereavement allowance and bereavement payment are claimed on the same form known as a BB1.

May I gently suggest you download the BB1 form, and fill in as much as possible, which is most of it except your date of death! You will need things like certified copies of wedding certificates and probably her birth certificate and your death certificate. Get them now, (except the death certificate) as they'll keep and it will make things easier for your future widow. The government will probably re-issue the BB1 form over the years but most of the answers can be copied across from the one you're going to fill in.

If you really want to help her at this stressful time, make a list of your personal details, age, your NI number, date and place of birth etc , a list of email addresses and/or phone numbers she should contact, bank details, your pension provider details (she might be entitled to a smaller widow's pension) in fact near enough your life's history. You know everything now, but you won't be there to answer her questions. Perhaps put in all in a folder, go through it with her and keep it up to date.

And believe it or not immigration will want a copy of your passport to cancel your visa, and will want your departure card too. You don't want to be on overstay!

[chiang mai]

I believe your pension provider is right. If the income arises in the UK then UK tax is payable. But your wife should have a single person's tax allowance (currently GBP 10,000) to offset against the pension. So she will pay tax of 20% of the balance of (pension - allowance). If her pension is GBP 10,000 pa or less then no tax is payable anyway. She will need an NI number so might pay emergency tax at first until her tax code and NI number are sorted out.

All these figures are likely to change both at the whim of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the hopefully many years she remains your wife and not your widow!

Can I ask why a non-resident, non- UK citizen who hasn't made any income or contributions in the UK would be allowed a Personal Allowance?

[davehowden]

lungbing

Thank you so much for your very sound advice.

[MAZ3]

I believe your pension provider is right. If the income arises in the UK then UK tax is payable. But your wife should have a single person's tax allowance (currently GBP 10,000) to offset against the pension. So she will pay tax of 20% of the balance of (pension - allowance). If her pension is GBP 10,000 pa or less then no tax is payable anyway. She will need an NI number so might pay emergency tax at first until her tax code and NI number are sorted out.

All these figures are likely to change both at the whim of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the hopefully many years she remains your wife and not your widow!

Can I ask why a non-resident, non- UK citizen who hasn't made any income or contributions in the UK would be allowed a Personal Allowance?

I'm going thru with a friends widow here,the widow is entitled to a one off payment of up to £2,000. This is based on his NI contributions,and because he never draw his British state pension.

This poor Lady is 30 and I've been told verbally that she should get some payment,its basically a part refund of his NI.

[MAZ3]

I believe your pension provider is right. If the income arises in the UK then UK tax is payable. But your wife should have a single person's tax allowance (currently GBP 10,000) to offset against the pension. So she will pay tax of 20% of the balance of (pension - allowance). If her pension is GBP 10,000 pa or less then no tax is payable anyway. She will need an NI number so might pay emergency tax at first until her tax code and NI number are sorted out.

All these figures are likely to change both at the whim of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the hopefully many years she remains your wife and not your widow!

Excellent advice.

Unfortunately the widow will pay emergency tax on her pension(my company informed us of this requirement),I am in the process of trying to reclaim it back from HMRC. They were very helpful on the phone with my pension also being taxed fully,without any personnel tax allowance applied.

This was fixed over the phone,but the widows case,I had to supply copies of her pension payments,power of Attorney,contact address and death certificate and it will take about 6 weeks to get an answer.

I would advise you ask a good friend to assist your widow,it can be a slow painful process and patience is required.

When the NI payment is applied for they will issue your widow with her own NI number, this should help with any future problems.

Also my company's pension rules state that the pension must be paid into a UK Bank,Bangkok Bank in London were very helpful in setting up an account for her and transferring it into her Thai Bangkok bank account.

Also check on the percentage of her pension,my company's rule is 50% for the widow up to 15 years younger,after which 1% is deducted per year younger. At least then you can plan and make any allowances required.

I hope you or I don't need this friends help for a long while.

Regards

[lungbing]

My pensions are already paid into a joint account with Nationwide International on the Isle of Man. Uk banks do not like you having an account if you are non-resident but Nationwide International are happy with that. I have prepared draft letters for my pension providers and my widow (hopefully in umpteen years time) will need to add my date of death and a certified copy and translation of my death certificate and the letter then asks the pension provider to continue paying the widows pension into the same account. Likewise a letter to Nationwide International removing my name from the account and my local banks ditto.

I'm just trying to make it easier for her in future, but I must admit it's an odd feeling drafting a letter about your own death. And she doesn't like having to go through the folder with me so she understands it.

MAZ3: It's not a return of NI contributions really, but the Bereavement Benefit payable to any widow(er) of a UK citizen. I think it is 2,000GBP and it's tax free too. But your friend's widow is too young to get the Bereavement Allowance. Download the latest form BB! and help her fill it in.

[Jip99]

Certainly. As your widow she will need to aspply for the UK bereavement payment and bereavement allowance. The bereavement payment is a one-off, tax-free payment of about 2,000GBP and is payable no matter what her nationality or age at the time of your death. The bereavement allowance is paid on a sliding scale depending on her age at the time of your death. She must be at least 45 years old to be able to claim, and the older she is the more she gets but she cannot claim if she is of pensionable age when you die. An NI number will be allocated to her as part of this because the bereavement allowance is taxable.

Both the bereavement allowance and bereavement payment are claimed on the same form known as a BB1.

May I gently suggest you download the BB1 form, and fill in as much as possible, which is most of it except your date of death! You will need things like certified copies of wedding certificates and probably her birth certificate and your death certificate. Get them now, (except the death certificate) as they'll keep and it will make things easier for your future widow. The government will probably re-issue the BB1 form over the years but most of the answers can be copied across from the one you're going to fill in.

If you really want to help her at this stressful time, make a list of your personal details, age, your NI number, date and place of birth etc , a list of email addresses and/or phone numbers she should contact, bank details, your pension provider details (she might be entitled to a smaller widow's pension) in fact near enough your life's history. You know everything now, but you won't be there to answer her questions. Perhaps put in all in a folder, go through it with her and keep it up to date.

And believe it or not immigration will want a copy of your passport to cancel your visa, and will want your departure card too. You don't want to be on overstay!

Spot on.

Just by of additional info - until 2016 - the Widowed Parents Allowance is the third element of the suite of bereavement benefits.

[MAZ3]

We have filled that form in and even before we did that,I checked with the department of the NI that deals with overseas deaths. I informed them of her age,they emailed the form to us. The return of NI was just an assumption of mine,as I was told by them its based on his NI contributions. Hope I wasn't misled,or misled anyone here by assuming about the return of NI. This the 2nd widow I've helped and this its been much more difficult, the NI even lost the 1st form and documents. And my former company lost the death,marriage certificate's etc. They also removed my power of Attorney,because it was not drawn by a Lawyer. Even though they accepted it for 7 years with the previous widow.

Agreed its a bit strange to set up this,but the widow is now safe for the rest of her life,as per my friends wish.

[Jip99]

I believe your pension provider is right. If the income arises in the UK then UK tax is payable. But your wife should have a single person's tax allowance (currently GBP 10,000) to offset against the pension. So she will pay tax of 20% of the balance of (pension - allowance). If her pension is GBP 10,000 pa or less then no tax is payable anyway. She will need an NI number so might pay emergency tax at first until her tax code and NI number are sorted out.

All these figures are likely to change both at the whim of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the hopefully many years she remains your wife and not your widow!

Can I ask why a non-resident, non- UK citizen who hasn't made any income or contributions in the UK would be allowed a Personal Allowance?

On the grounds of fairness.

Income arising and taxable in the UK should either (a) have a tax allowance that can be applied to it or, ( nit be subject to tax in the UK but taxable in the country of the beneficiary.

[MAZ3]

I believe your pension provider is right. If the income arises in the UK then UK tax is payable. But your wife should have a single person's tax allowance (currently GBP 10,000) to offset against the pension. So she will pay tax of 20% of the balance of (pension - allowance). If her pension is GBP 10,000 pa or less then no tax is payable anyway. She will need an NI number so might pay emergency tax at first until her tax code and NI number are sorted out.

All these figures are likely to change both at the whim of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the hopefully many years she remains your wife and not your widow!

Can I ask why a non-resident, non- UK citizen who hasn't made any income or contributions in the UK would be allowed a Personal Allowance?

On the grounds of fairness.

Income arising and taxable in the UK should either (a) have a tax allowance that can be applied to it or, ( nit be subject to tax in the UK but taxable in the country of the beneficiary.

I hope that will remain the case in the future for her and all expats keeping their personal tax free allowance for any pensions especially.

[chiang mai]

I believe your pension provider is right. If the income arises in the UK then UK tax is payable. But your wife should have a single person's tax allowance (currently GBP 10,000) to offset against the pension. So she will pay tax of 20% of the balance of (pension - allowance). If her pension is GBP 10,000 pa or less then no tax is payable anyway. She will need an NI number so might pay emergency tax at first until her tax code and NI number are sorted out.

All these figures are likely to change both at the whim of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the hopefully many years she remains your wife and not your widow!

Can I ask why a non-resident, non- UK citizen who hasn't made any income or contributions in the UK would be allowed a Personal Allowance?

On the grounds of fairness.

Income arising and taxable in the UK should either (a) have a tax allowance that can be applied to it or, ( nit be subject to tax in the UK but taxable in the country of the beneficiary.

The words "Personal Allowance" refer to the UK tax system, I think that was pretty clear, my questions stands.

[Jip99]

I believe your pension provider is right. If the income arises in the UK then UK tax is payable. But your wife should have a single person's tax allowance (currently GBP 10,000) to offset against the pension. So she will pay tax of 20% of the balance of (pension - allowance). If her pension is GBP 10,000 pa or less then no tax is payable anyway. She will need an NI number so might pay emergency tax at first until her tax code and NI number are sorted out.

All these figures are likely to change both at the whim of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the hopefully many years she remains your wife and not your widow!

Can I ask why a non-resident, non- UK citizen who hasn't made any income or contributions in the UK would be allowed a Personal Allowance?

On the grounds of fairness.

Income arising and taxable in the UK should either (a) have a tax allowance that can be applied to it or, ( nit be subject to tax in the UK but taxable in the country of the beneficiary.

The words "Personal Allowance" refer to the UK tax system, I think that was pretty clear, my questions stands.

As does my answer.

Pay it direct to Thailand and let her deal with it with the Thai tax authorities.

The income is 'personal' to her so, therefore, should the tax allowance also be 'personal' to her.

[chiang mai]

Can I ask why a non-resident, non- UK citizen who hasn't made any income or contributions in the UK would be allowed a Personal Allowance?

On the grounds of fairness.

Income arising and taxable in the UK should either (a) have a tax allowance that can be applied to it or, ( nit be subject to tax in the UK but taxable in the country of the beneficiary.

The words "Personal Allowance" refer to the UK tax system, I think that was pretty clear, my questions stands.

As does my answer.

Pay it direct to Thailand and let her deal with it with the Thai tax authorities.

The income is 'personal' to her so, therefore, should the tax allowance also be 'personal' to her.

Using that logic, anyone in the world who derives any income from any source within the UK is automatically entitled to a Personal Allowance, nonsense.

[Jip99]

On the grounds of fairness.

Income arising and taxable in the UK should either (a) have a tax allowance that can be applied to it or, ( nit be subject to tax in the UK but taxable in the country of the beneficiary.

The words "Personal Allowance" refer to the UK tax system, I think that was pretty clear, my questions stands.

As does my answer.

Pay it direct to Thailand and let her deal with it with the Thai tax authorities.

The income is 'personal' to her so, therefore, should the tax allowance also be 'personal' to her.

Using that logic, anyone in the world who derives any income from any source within the UK is automatically entitled to a Personal Allowance, nonsense.

Don't you see that it could be patently unfair. She is not being given the opportunity to apply a personal allowance elsewhere. A wife of a British citizen is not 'anyone in the world'.

I am not suggesting anyone should avoid tax - if she has no unused allowances then tax must be paid.

Why should she be disadvantaged compared to a Thai wife that lives in the UK ?

[chiang mai]

The words "Personal Allowance" refer to the UK tax system, I think that was pretty clear, my questions stands.

As does my answer.

Pay it direct to Thailand and let her deal with it with the Thai tax authorities.

The income is 'personal' to her so, therefore, should the tax allowance also be 'personal' to her.

Using that logic, anyone in the world who derives any income from any source within the UK is automatically entitled to a Personal Allowance, nonsense.

Don't you see that it could be patently unfair. She is not being given the opportunity to apply a personal allowance elsewhere. A wife of a British citizen is not 'anyone in the world'.

I am not suggesting anyone should avoid tax - if she has no unused allowances then tax must be paid.

Why should she be disadvantaged compared to a Thai wife that lives in the UK ?

As a purely theoretical debate and without wishing to personalize it towards the OP:

The wife has no connection with the UK other than via an overseas marriage, she is not a citizen, she is not resident nor is she domiciled there. She doesn't pay taxes or NI there and potentially may never have ever visited the country, her personal allowance is the responsibility of Thailand or whatever country she resides in, not the UK.

Anecdotal as to direction: I pay tax on my US SSc pension at a rate of 30%, simply because I don't live in the US (ex-green card) and I can't recover that tax without filing a US tax return and declaring my worldwide income, that way I get use of a personal allowance as an offset, I don't get the benefit of a personal allowance from the very beginning automatically and without the tax return - my UK or Thai personal allowances are of no help in this matter. So it should be in the case of foreigners whose income arises in the UK, I believe you will find that George has got this matter in hand and will make announcements shortly.,

[citizen33]

I'm afraid that Chiang Mai has produced another misleading post, just like his imaginery six months residence rule for NHS eligibility. Why don't people do a bit of research? The current position to quote from the link below is:

'In the UK, with some exceptions , non-residents with taxable income arising from the UK currently benefit from the UK’s generous Personal Allowance.'

However, it is true that there is some controversy about whether this concession can be maintained, given the fact that countries like the US take a different position. Thus there is an open consultation on the issue. If you feel strongly you can express your views.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance

Edited September 30, 2014 by citizen33

[chiang mai]

I'm afraid that Chiang Mai has produced another misleading post, just like his imaginery six months residence rule for NHS eligibility. Why don't people do a bit of research? The current position to quote from the link below is:

'In the UK, with some exceptions , non-residents with taxable income arising from the UK currently benefit from the UK’s generous Personal Allowance.'

However, it is true that there is some controversy about whether this concession can be maintained, given the fact that countries like the US take a different position. Thus there is an open consultation on the issue. If you feel strongly you can express your views.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance

It's not clear to me which post you refer to when you say, "another misleading post" and "needs to do research" and/or why, perhaps you can clarify?

But as far as the UK NHS six month residency rule is concerned: It was made clear from the white paper and the subsequent green paper that six months residency in the UK would be required before citizens were allowed free access to NHS services. There were always loopholes/concessions in that, one was the requirement for a returning expat to declare their permanent return, the second was that those in receipt of the state pension and having paid in a minimum of ten years NI contributions, would be granted access also (I have yet to see it confirmed that the latter has come into force).

EDIT: I have re read your post (and mine) several times, trying to see what irked you, I think I finally spotted it.

In a preceding post I talked about a US pension being taxed at 30% at source, that cannot be offset against the UK personal allowance unless the recipient is resident in the UK or the US. That's not a function of UK tax law it's a function of US SSc policy, OK?

Edited October 1, 2014 by chiang mai

[citizen33]

I'm afraid that Chiang Mai has produced another misleading post, just like his imaginery six months residence rule for NHS eligibility. Why don't people do a bit of research? The current position to quote from the link below is:

'In the UK, with some exceptions , non-residents with taxable income arising from the UK currently benefit from the UK’s generous Personal Allowance.'

However, it is true that there is some controversy about whether this concession can be maintained, given the fact that countries like the US take a different position. Thus there is an open consultation on the issue. If you feel strongly you can express your views.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance

It's not clear to me which post you refer to when you say, "another misleading post" and "needs to do research" and/or why, perhaps you can clarify?

But as far as the UK NHS six month residency rule is concerned: It was made clear from the white paper and the subsequent green paper that six months residency in the UK would be required before citizens were allowed free access to NHS services. There were always loopholes/concessions in that, one was the requirement for a returning expat to declare their permanent return, the second was that those in receipt of the state pension and having paid in a minimum of ten years NI contributions, would be granted access also (I have yet to see it confirmed that the latter has come into force).

EDIT: I have re read your post (and mine) several times, trying to see what irked you, I think I finally spotted it.

In a preceding post I talked about a US pension being taxed at 30% at source, that cannot be offset against the UK personal allowance unless the recipient is resident in the UK or the US. That's not a function of UK tax law it's a function of US SSc policy, OK?

The other misleading post is this one, on a different thread in this sub-forum:

chiang mai, on 28 Jul 2014 - 15:03, said:

It is no accident that NHS eligibility comes only after you passed 6 months of UK residency, as does UK tax liability, six months and you are tax resident again!

http://www.cambridge...ence_Rules.html

What Green and White Papers do you have in mind? The Government's response (Dec 2013) to the recent consultation says:

Expatriates

98.Currently many, but not all, expatriates are chargeable for healthcare when returning to the

UK to visit and they are immediately exempt if they resume permanent residence. The

consultation responses acknowledged that current rules are poorly understood and difficult

to enforce. Responses broadly supported the idea that those with a previous long-term

relationship with the country should be able to continue to access free NHS care when they

are here. However others argue that full exemption (that could have significant potential

cost implications) should be limited to those who have left the UK more recently or who have

previously worked for the majority of their life here.

99.The Government supports the principle of those who have previously made a fair

contribution continuing to be entitled to free NHS treatment and this should be consistent

with the principles of ex-pat eligibility for UK pensions and other state benefits. We will

therefore undertake further analysis and financial appraisal before confirming the details of

any proposed new eligibility rules. We anticipate that these would come into force later in

2014 at the same time as other changes are made to introduce the new migrant health

surcharge.

(My emphasis in bold font)

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/migrants-and-overseas-visitors-use-of-the-nhs

There has been slippage on the timetable for issuing new regulations. The operative legislation is still the National Health Service Act 2006 read with The National Health Service (Overseas Visitors) Regulations 2011 (i.e. regulations made under the provisions of the statute). The National Health Service (Overseas Visitors) Regulations (Amendment) 2014 introduced a small technical change to make provision for the Commonwealth Games.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1556/note/made

Guidance on the application of the charging regulations (updated 2013) is here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/254530/ovs_visitors_guidance_oct13a.pdf

In fact the whole issue is more complicated than one might assume, with each of the four UK home countries having different rules on NHS eligibility, none of which involves a six months residency rule. Are you perhaps getting mixed up with the rule that says that overseas visitors, such as visiting academics, who will be residing legally in the UK for at least 12 months are eligible for NHS care (overseas students on a course lasting at least six months are eligible on arrival)? Or is it perhaps the rule that requires UK persioners who spend part of the year in the EEA/Switzerland to spend at least 6 months per year in the UK to retain eligibility (Scotland and Wales only - England 182 days)? This is nothing to do with the test applied when an expat from outside the EEA returns to the UK seeking NHS treatment.

If I have missed a genuine six months rule then please post the relevant extract from the legislation or guidance.

You neatly side-stepped the fact that most overseas residents with UK income are still able ot get the personal allowance, and that the proposed change in the law is likely to allow an overseas resident whose main income (75% or 90% of total) comes from the UK to keep the allowance.

My remark about the need for research was made because I think it is important not to mislead forum members.

Edited October 1, 2014 by citizen33

[citizen33]

P.S. Should have said that the Immigration Act 2014 changes the definition of permanent residence by making this more difficult to establish for immigrants. This will have knock on consequences for some of the NHS regulations mentioned above (e.g.eligibility of students and visitors legally resident for at least 12 months), but - as I understand things - this does not significantly change the position of returning expats.

Edited October 1, 2014 by citizen33

[chiang mai]

I have already said above (and several times previously) that there was a concession to returning expats, they became eligible immediately for NHS services as long as they declared their return to be permanent, But those expats who were merely visiting the UK would need to be resident for six months before becoming eligible, that is the six month rule that I refer to, do you disagree that is the case.

And the above reference to tax is also based on six months residency (192 days), do you disagree that is the also the case.

In the fuller quote that you partially quoted I believe I said I thought it was governments aim to harmonize all benefits and NHS eligibility based on six months residency, anything less than six months and a person is ineligible Once again, returning expats are the exception.

I'm struggling to see what it is you think is misleading and where and what you think I have sidestepped, please be more specific as to where you think the contradictions or vagueness lies because thus far I don't see you saying anything different from what I have said previously.

[citizen33]

It would help if you could please provide a link to the 'six months rule' - because as far as I can see it does not exist.

'Ordinarily resident' has been the key test. This is not a 'concession'. If a person is not ordinarily resident they must show they are covered by one of a number of 'exemptions' to be eligible for the full range of NHS treatments. The 2011 regulations mention several exempt categories of persons. These are:

(1) Persons with 12 months’ prior lawful residence (regulation 7);

(2) Those present for work, self-employment, volunteering, full-time study or settlement (regulation 8);

(3) Persons entitled to services pursuant to certain EU rights (regulation 9);

(4) Reciprocal arrangements with other counties (regulation 10);

(5) Refugees, asylum-seekers and children in care (regulation 11);

(6) Victims or suspected victims of human trafficking (regulation 12);

(7) Persons who have exceptional humanitarian reasons (regulation 13);

(8) Diplomats (regulation 14);

(9) NATO forces (regulation 15);

(10) UK pensioners making long-term visits (regulation 16);

(11) War pensioners and armed forces compensation scheme payment recipients

(regulation 17);

(12) HM UK forces, Crown servants and other related categories (regulation 18);

(13) Former residents working overseas (regulation 19);

(14) Missionaries (regulation 20);

(15) Prisoners and detainees (regulation 21);

(16) Employees on ships (regulation 22); and

(17) Persons with a need for treatment which arose during the course of the visit

(regulation 23).

The 12 months exemption is the closest to your claimed rule. The regulation states that:

“(1) No charge may be made or recovered in respect of any relevant services provided to an overseas visitor who has resided lawfully in the United Kingdom for a period of not less than

12 months immediately preceding the time when such services are provided.

(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to a person who has leave to enter the United Kingdom for the purpose of undergoing private medical treatment, or a person in relation to whom a

determination under regulation 13 has been made."

This rule will change as a result in the change in the definition of permanent residence in the 2014 Immigration Act for people who require entry clearance. It does not seem to me to be really designed for expats who would have almost certainly been deemed to have resumed oridinary residence on other grounds before they had stayed 12 months.

I think that to the extent that six months residence has ever been mentioned it has in the past been said to be one factor that could be taken into account to decide whether a person was ordinarily resident (i.e. not a separate route for somebody who maintains that they are not ordinarily resident as you suggest).

This is mentioned in an House of Commons Library background document on applying the 2011 rules.

Ordinary residence can be of long or short duration and non-EEA temporary migrants who

may currently be covered by the definition include students, workers and newly arriving

family members of existing UK citizens. UK citizenship, past or present payments of UK

taxes or National Insurance contributions, being registered with a GP, having an NHS

number, or owning property in the UK are not directly taken into account in the way that

ordinary residence has been defined (they might nevertheless be relevant in some

circumstances; for example, a right to reside here, which a UK citizen would normally have,

might make it easier to satisfy the ordinarily resident criterion or to satisfy one of the

exemption criteria that are listed in the next section of this note).

It is for the relevant NHS body (usually a hospital’s Overseas Visitors Manager (OVM)) to

determine whether a patient is ordinarily resident, based on the circumstances of the

individual patient. There is no minimum period of residence that confers ordinarily resident

status. In the past, the Department of Health has suggested that someone who has been

here for less than 6 months is less likely to meet the “settled” criterion of the ordinary

residence description at paragraph 3.5 but it is important to realise that this is only a

guideline. The Department of Health guidance provides advice on the way that ordinary

residence should be established in practice, and how those who are not ordinarily resident

should be identified.

There is no connection between income tax payment record and NHS eligibility.

I would be interested to see your rule spelled out in black and white, but otherwise I am not going to debate this further because you are providing no concrete reference points. Any interested readers can follow the links I have provided. The guidance will be updated within a few months to incorporate certain changes to the NHS charging rules arising from the Immigration Act 2014.

[chiang mai]

I have no idea where the six month "rule" exists in the government regulations that cover this subject but I do know that it has been widely discussed elsewhere and is found here at CAB:

"You can receive free NHS hospital treatment if you:-

have been living legally in the UK for at least 12 months when you start treatment, and did not come to the UK for private medical treatment. Temporary absences from the UK of up to three months (in England, up to 182 days) are ignored (Note: the white paper proposed that the period of three months be increased to six months).

get a UK state retirement pension and live in the UK for at least 182 days a year (in Scotland and Wales, six months a year) and live in another European Economic Area (EEA) member state or Switzerland for the other part of the year. If you have registered as a resident of another EEA state or Switzerland, you may be entitled to free NHS hospital treatment if you fall ill during a trip back to the UK".

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/healthcare_e/healthcare_help_with_health_costs_e/nhs_charges_for_people_from_abroad.htm

Also, the term "ordinary resident" for tax purposes has been abolished, the last time this subject was discussed here there was uncertainty whether the term would remain for NHS purposes.

Finally, I note that you highlight text in your post, please tell me that we're not going to debate what is a rule and what is a guideline since the practical application of whatever it is, is the important part.

And finally finally: can I ask you again what the other misleading post was that you think I made, regarding tax. Don't tell me that you're not going to debate these things, you made the accusation now support your claims.

Edited October 1, 2014 by chiang mai

[citizen33]

That is a depressingly lazy response if I may say so. You have simply posted a CAB summary of the 12 months rule - regulation 7 from the 2011 Regulations (quoted in full in my last post). There is no mention of a requirement for six months residency. I cannot debate this further as I have better things to do with my time, but there is enough information in the thread to help any readers needing answers. The key point is that no returning expat should mistakenly believe that they need to spend 6 months in the UK before they are eligible for NHS treatment; their eligibility will depend on establishing intention to return permanently or that they fall under one of the exemptions. Similarly the OP of this thread should not take as gospel your suggestion that his widow would not be entitled to a UK personal tax allowance on pension income originating within the UK, though there are some exclusions and the rules may change in the future.

[chiang mai]

That is a depressingly lazy response if I may say so. You have simply posted a CAB summary of the 12 months rule - regulation 7 from the 2011 Regulations (quoted in full in my last post). There is no mention of a requirement for six months residency. I cannot debate this further as I have better things to do with my time, but there is enough information in the thread to help any readers needing answers. The key point is that no returning expat should mistakenly believe that they need to spend 6 months in the UK before they are eligible for NHS treatment; their eligibility will depend on establishing intention to return permanently or that they fall under one of the exemptions. Similarly the OP of this thread should not take as gospel your suggestion that his widow would not be entitled to a UK personal tax allowance on pension income originating within the UK, though there are some exclusions and the rules may change in the future.

Despite your bluster, rhetoric and long windiness, my questions posed in post 25 still stand.

Visiting expats returning to the UK for NHS treatment will not be eligible for free treatment until a minimum amount of time has been spent in country, do you disagree? A simple yes or no without the hot air, will suffice.

You can probably imagine what question two will be!

Edited October 2, 2014 by chiang mai

[chiang mai]

Hmm, I do believe a thread dedicated to the question of expat eligibility to NHS care is in order, yet again, yawn.

[chiang mai]

This from the NHS:

"If you have lived outside the UK for more than 3 months
(6 months for some pensioners) in the last year you can be charged"

https://www.whittington.nhs.uk/document.ashx?id=3227

[MAZ3]

An update about the NI payment,the widow got 2 letters from the overseas department,1 just she was not entitled to a pension because she had no children and was under 45.

The 2nd letter stated that she was entitled to the full £2,000 lump sum payment and that will be transferred into her Bangkok Bank account within 5 days.

Still awaiting an outcome from the HMRC(income tax).