Thailand agrees to British police help over murders

[Baerboxer]

To validate DNA tests, they can obviously get a sample from the two boys. I wonder if the police still have the semen from the victims body to get a new sample from? Or just the DNA test results, which could be from somewhere else i.e. taken from the boys later on, not from the semen.

Seems like no semen no verification.

DNA samples WERE taken from both Hannah's & David's bodies upon their return to the UK, THAT is British law for any UK citizen murder abroad, period.....

Could you provide a link please to which British Law you are referring to? Not meant as a criticism or bad remark against your post. but a genuine inquiry.

[Elsuisso]

After the endless, complicated and contradictory developments and comments concerning this case, it seems to me that it all boils down to one very simple FIRST action, at this stage, for the British investigators to perform : take a DNA sample from the two Burmese guys, with enough witnesses around so that the authenticity of the samples cannot later be questioned, and then compare them with the DNA that the British investigators have taken in Britain from the body.

The only question is : did the British perform such a sampling or did the body of this poor girl go untouched after entering British soil ? I don't recall reading anywhere, clearly, that British authorities had made such a move after recovering the body.

If the DNA of the Burmese guys is compared with samples provided by the Thai police, there will be no end to suspicion of foul play.

The whole system of evidence based on DNA works on the assumption that no one tampers with the samples because the people who perform the sampling are trustworthy and eager to serve true justice. If and when the people in question become suspicious in the eyes of the public and/or the press, then the whole process amounts to nothing, and so called evidence is rightly seen as potential manipulation.

Yep I read somewhere there was an autopsy certainly on Hannah. The law in the UK is that should a citizen be murdered abroad and the body repatriated then an independent autopsy has to be carried out before the body is handed back to the family, I am almost 100% certain this happened with Hannah - I heard perhaps not with David as he's from Jersey, but that's brobably just crap.

I also think a family can ask for specific actions to take place during the autopsy, but whatever, given the UK police are some of the best in the world I would imagine sits automatic to take DNA samples and anything which could be a reference to the case notes.

I would be surprised if they do not have multiple DNA samples from Hannah - hope so.

[docshock13]

Parents of two suspects now in Yangon awaiting Thai visas to visit their sons in Samui. Will be interesting to see if their visas are approved or denied.

https://www.dvb.no/dvb-video/parents-of-koh-tao-suspects-prepare-to-visit-their-boys-burma-myanmar/45181

[Franky Bear]

If you think that the British cops didn't take a DNA sample from the two when they returned to the UK you're stark raving mad. It doesn't matter if it's law or not, it's plain old common sense for them to do it.

[Always18]

I'm thinking that we are witnessing the final showdown between the military and the police in their power struggle.

Other posters have also alluded to this - Prayuth, in his new "international" role has been rudely awakened to the fact that Thailand is not the perfect, superior, isolated paradise and does have to answer to world opinion - like it or not.

He must be acutely aware that, in the eyes of the rest of the world, the disgraceful actions of the R.T.P. have caused Thailand and therefore he, as it's representative, severe embarrassment and, being that this man is far from stupid, he might just have decided to throw them to the wolves in an attempt to regain international credibility.

If I'm right, and time will tell, he will have made a very shrewd move.

He will have cemented his status as a true statesman whilst also salvaging the reputation of Thailand, ensuring that the Thai military are firmly in control of events and allowing the first real shakeup of the worthless R.T.P.

I'm only speculating, of course, but it would indeed be a fascinating scenario if it turns out to be true.........................

[wandasloan]

UK citizens are members of G7, they are Visa exempt, they do NOT need a Visa for the first 30 days....

Actually they do, since they will be working. Yes, they will be - or at least that's their story. "Observing" the Thai police, who have already wrapped up and submitted their report about Koh Tao and moved on to other cases, is, by definition, working.

They presumably will not travel on back-of-the-bus passports either, most likely official ones. On the other hand, I doubt the Thai embassy would hold up their application for a nanosecond, since there is no reason to.

[docshock13]

After the endless, complicated and contradictory developments and comments concerning this case, it seems to me that it all boils down to one very simple FIRST action, at this stage, for the British investigators to perform : take a DNA sample from the two Burmese guys, with enough witnesses around so that the authenticity of the samples cannot later be questioned, and then compare them with the DNA that the British investigators have taken in Britain from the body.

The only question is : did the British perform such a sampling or did the body of this poor girl go untouched after entering British soil ? I don't recall reading anywhere, clearly, that British authorities had made such a move after recovering the body.

If the DNA of the Burmese guys is compared with samples provided by the Thai police, there will be no end to suspicion of foul play.

The whole system of evidence based on DNA works on the assumption that no one tampers with the samples because the people who perform the sampling are trustworthy and eager to serve true justice. If and when the people in question become suspicious in the eyes of the public and/or the press, then the whole process amounts to nothing, and so called evidence is rightly seen as potential manipulation.

Yep I read somewhere there was an autopsy certainly on Hannah. The law in the UK is that should a citizen be murdered abroad and the body repatriated then an independent autopsy has to be carried out before the body is handed back to the family, I am almost 100% certain this happened with Hannah - I heard perhaps not with David as he's from Jersey, but that's brobably just crap.

I also think a family can ask for specific actions to take place during the autopsy, but whatever, given the UK police are some of the best in the world I would imagine sits automatic to take DNA samples and anything which could be a reference to the case notes.

I would be surprised if they do not have multiple DNA samples from Hannah - hope so.

I'm not an expert on DNA and forensic investigation, but should the UK investigators be denied access to the suspects in order to obtain DNA could they not have the parents report to the Embassy or High Commission in Myanmar for a swab? RTP can't stop them from doing this because it is outside Thai jurisdiction. Then compare to perpetrators DNA back in the UK? I couldn't imagine the UK government/police and/or the victims' families NOT having as much evidence taken from the bodies before they were to be interred in such a criminal case. Makes no sense to bury potential evidence in an unresolved case.

[heyexile]

You can't compare this to the Blue Diamond issue. It's night and day. The only people here that will suffer in reality are a few cops and the killers (hopefully)

If you know about the blue diamond case, well...... you'll know who is allegedly involved, that's why people were bumped off.

Not so sure. Remember the KT influential persons connections go high, at least to the venerable Suthep, allegedly.

Also suggestions Head Man`s grandmother is bff with the Leader`s mum, allegedly

As to higher, that would be the succession question and unthinkable.

And junta Leader and his own appointed top cop already signed off on perfect investigation.

Absolute power, anything possible

Remember the KT influential persons connections go high, at least to the venerable Suthep, allegedly.

Also suggestions Head Man`s grandmother is bff with the Leader`s mum, allegedly

I'm tired reading of this allegedly high connections. Just hearsay - where is the proof?

I and others have posted this before but as you seem to have missed it:

FACTS Voraphan Tuvichien. Local politician, Mayor/Head Man of Koh Tao.

Important member Surat Thani section Democratic Party.

Top organiser of PDRC in Surat Thani

Venerable uncle Suthep. Leader of Democratic Party in Surat Thani province (includes Koh Tao).

Founder PDRC. By his own admission, worked with Prayut, since 2010, on plans for takeover.

[slim]

Padloms and khee spring to mind.

[AGareth2]

If you think that the British cops didn't take a DNA sample from the two when they returned to the UK you're stark raving mad. It doesn't matter if it's law or not, it's plain old common sense for them to do it.

would they not need consent of the family?

[Franky Bear]

If you think that the British cops didn't take a DNA sample from the two when they returned to the UK you're stark raving mad. It doesn't matter if it's law or not, it's plain old common sense for them to do it.

would they not need consent of the family?

I think they would ask out of courtesy . Do you think the family would say no? I doubt it very much.

I feel the UK cops have enough scientific evidence to pursue this. They are not stupid, they know their careers are on the line here. The world is also going to watching there every move here. One <deleted> up will not only allow the Thais to criticize them, it'll also stop their careers in it's path.

[thailandchilli]

You can't compare this to the Blue Diamond issue. It's night and day. The only people here that will suffer in reality are a few cops and the killers (hopefully)

If you know about the blue diamond case, well...... you'll know who is allegedly involved, that's why people were bumped off.

Not so sure. Remember the KT influential persons connections go high, at least to the venerable Suthep, allegedly.

Also suggestions Head Man`s grandmother is bff with the Leader`s mum, allegedly

As to higher, that would be the succession question and unthinkable.

And junta Leader and his own appointed top cop already signed off on perfect investigation.

Absolute power, anything possible

Remember the KT influential persons connections go high, at least to the venerable Suthep, allegedly.

Also suggestions Head Man`s grandmother is bff with the Leader`s mum, allegedly

I'm tired reading of this allegedly high connections. Just hearsay - where is the proof?

I and others have posted this before but as you seem to have missed it:

FACTS Voraphan Tuvichien. Local politician, Mayor/Head Man of Koh Tao.

Important member Surat Thani section Democratic Party.

Top organiser of PDRC in Surat Thani

Venerable uncle Suthep. Leader of Democratic Party in Surat Thani province (includes Koh Tao).

Founder PDRC. By his own admission, worked with Prayut, since 2010, on plans for takeover.

Appreciated this may well be true but just because you post it does not make it fact as you state, do you have a reference for this? A genuine query

[Oziex1]

I reckon those investigators are the ones who will need helmets and bullet proof vests. They will have a target painted on them for sure...

It's not unlikely that Prayuth will provide some boys in green to keep the local thugs at bay.

As has been suggested and I agree if the Thai PM wants development and business with the West then he would be wise to play it straight now. He can save face by seeing deals with the West come through, protecting KT influentials may now come second.

[draftvader]

If you think that the British cops didn't take a DNA sample from the two when they returned to the UK you're stark raving mad. It doesn't matter if it's law or not, it's plain old common sense for them to do it.

would they not need consent of the family?

Which family would not consent to that? Seriously?

[T_Dog]

If this report is true, it appears there may be some divisions forming between the police and the military government as both the Nation and BP report that Somyot will "bar" investigators (in one report) and that allowing foreign investigators to become involved is "tantamount to a breach of Thailand's sovereignty" (in the other report). Pretty strong words. Wondering if Prayut and Co. have decided to break ranks with the RTP to avoid committing political suicide domestically and save what's left of Thailand's reputation internationally?

Yes, it is very interesting.

I guess the General will sit down with Khun Somyot once he gets back and explain why the change of heart, whether it will be a "sorry, I caved in but they have a piece of evidence that proves your investigation result wrong" , or a " what the heck are you doing you moron, the Brits have evidence that the botched things....you're fired", I would be intrigued to know.

The General is going to need the police to help him run the country, whether he needs Somyot I have no idea.

He can`t fire Somyut. He appointed him to be Police Commissioner General on Aug 20th this year.

Why, because of your last sentence. Pol large para-military force, essential to have on board for coup and subsequent restrictions on freedom of speech etc Reward for services rendered? See link.

http://thaitribune.org/en/hot-issue/5886

They are likely all tied together. Lets not forget that Somyut Poompanmuang and his wife’s net worth was revealed to be about 355.8 million baht (roughly $11 million). Lots of Thai folks are wondering how he got that rich in public service. My bet is all these guys are buddies.

[JLCrab]

To validate DNA tests, they can obviously get a sample from the two boys. I wonder if the police still have the semen from the victims body to get a new sample from? Or just the DNA test results, which could be from somewhere else i.e. taken from the boys later on, not from the semen.

Seems like no semen no verification.

DNA samples WERE taken from both Hannah's & David's bodies upon their return to the UK, THAT is British law for any UK citizen murder abroad, period.....

Could you provide a link please to which British Law you are referring to? Not meant as a criticism or bad remark against your post. but a genuine inquiry.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/141958/mou-fco-acpo-coroners.pdf

[mattyc1957]

They may well have taken dna samples when they were returned to the UK, but is it possible that dna samples were planted beforehand in KT? I'm not aware of the relevant time-frames, and I do realise I'm sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but I don't particularly trust the RTP.

[sweatalot]

You can't compare this to the Blue Diamond issue. It's night and day. The only people here that will suffer in reality are a few cops and the killers (hopefully)

If you know about the blue diamond case, well...... you'll know who is allegedly involved, that's why people were bumped off.

Not so sure. Remember the KT influential persons connections go high, at least to the venerable Suthep, allegedly.

Also suggestions Head Man`s grandmother is bff with the Leader`s mum, allegedly

As to higher, that would be the succession question and unthinkable.

And junta Leader and his own appointed top cop already signed off on perfect investigation.

Absolute power, anything possible

Remember the KT influential persons connections go high, at least to the venerable Suthep, allegedly.

Also suggestions Head Man`s grandmother is bff with the Leader`s mum, allegedly

I'm tired reading of this allegedly high connections. Just hearsay - where is the proof?

I and others have posted this before but as you seem to have missed it:

FACTS Voraphan Tuvichien. Local politician, Mayor/Head Man of Koh Tao.

Important member Surat Thani section Democratic Party.

Top organiser of PDRC in Surat Thani

Venerable uncle Suthep. Leader of Democratic Party in Surat Thani province (includes Koh Tao).

Founder PDRC. By his own admission, worked with Prayut, since 2010, on plans for takeover.

thank you

[thailandchilli]

They may well have taken dna samples when they were returned to the UK, but is it possible that dna samples were planted beforehand in KT? I'm not aware of the relevant time-frames, and I do realise I'm sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but I don't particularly trust the RTP.

That would be a genuine concern if the bodies were flown back after they had these current suspects, but I don't know if that is the case

[AGareth2]

If you think that the British cops didn't take a DNA sample from the two when they returned to the UK you're stark raving mad. It doesn't matter if it's law or not, it's plain old common sense for them to do it.

would they not need consent of the family?

I think they would ask out of courtesy . Do you think the family would say no? I doubt it very much.

I feel the UK cops have enough scientific evidence to pursue this. They are not stupid, they know their careers are on the line here. The world is also going to watching there every move here. One <deleted> up will not only allow the Thais to criticize them, it'll also stop their careers in it's path.

I doubt they would say no

I just need facts not endless speculation

[mojorison]

I and others have posted this before but as you seem to have missed it:

FACTS Voraphan Tuvichien. Local politician, Mayor/Head Man of Koh Tao.

Important member Surat Thani section Democratic Party.

Top organiser of PDRC in Surat Thani

Venerable uncle Suthep. Leader of Democratic Party in Surat Thani province (includes Koh Tao).

Founder PDRC. By his own admission, worked with Prayut, since 2010, on plans for takeover.

Appreciated this may well be true but just because you post it does not make it fact as you state, do you have a reference for this? A genuine query

I'll can vouch for the veracity of these claims. I know some of the players, and their allegiances run deep.

[Number 3]

What's the bet the court case will proceed asap so they can convict them before the UK detectives get their visas approved.

UK citizens are members of G7, they are Visa exempt, they do NOT need a Visa for the first 30 days....

And as such, why is there a predicted eta of 'boots on the ground' of two weeks ?

[IAMHERE]

The UK police are well aware of this site, they will also be aware of the game being played.

Im satisfied that for the moment it looks like DNA will be getting a second look by professionals.

Best news about the case progressing since that tragic day.

I'd be very leery of the DNA evidence by this time. I'd wonder if the original DNA from the victims has been replaced with the perps DNA if it is a frame-up. Hope the bodies haven't been cremated before the British got their own samples if any were left.

[Traveler19491]

It will be very interesting to see how this unfolds. As I mentioned on another thread, this is actually a win-win situation for the PM. If there has, in fact, been a cover up (anyone care to place odds on that one?), the PM will have to throw everyone involved under the bus, but that certainly won't be any huge loss. A minor loss of face for the PM, but he will turn around and rant about how he was deceived, and, "...this type of behavior won't be tolerated in Thailand. We are determined to root out corruption and unprofessionalism at every level". He gains credibility with the Thai people, and the international community. So it will be in his best interest to closely follow the situation, and demand that the Brits get full and open access. I just hope he sees it that way, and doesn't blow it. And since sh*t rolls downhill, anyone who hasn't been directly "hands on" in the investigation will all claim the same...that they were deceived by their underlings. As usual, it'll be the peons whose heads roll, and the higher ups will emerge more or less unscathed.

[carstenp]

Very good news indeed

For me it Seems like the RTP maybe has a strong case to allowing the UK police to arrive and look at the case.

The general will not allow this if they don't have a good case. If the UK police find a mismatch on the DNA, this will be a totally face lose for the general and .

on the other hand this cut be a win win situation for the thailand, general and the police, if the UK police don't have anything to say and the DNA match and then show to the world the police is doing a good job and has nothing to hide

[MikePhuket1970]

There might be hope left still... If the investigators are not hindered in their efforts. A lot of evidence been tampered with already, though.

I don't think it will go like this, or....?

British Officer: We would like to interview the persons who refused to give a DNA sample.

RTP: Why? No need.

British Officer: Yes, but we still would like to do that.

RTP: Same same, no need.

British Officer: Can we also see all CCTV footage you have, including the Bangkok tapes?

RTP: No have.

British Officer: You don't have them anymore?

RTP: Yes.

British Officer: Ok, can we see them?

RTP: No have, all same same, no need.

If so, what will happen on Social Media? They have no choice and MUST collaborate IMHO.

The correct thai articulation for "no have" is "no hap"

Anyway,one thing is for sure,it will not be an easy task for the british finest

[Fred Flinstone]

Its really bad that a PM of "Real status" and with the power of the people -of no less than United Kingdom has to intervene with essentially a Hostage taker.

Its been unforgivable its taken this-

But lets be reasonable

Are these>>>

"Cheap words abroad? - *(for a dictator )

Hopefully , we see results-(and he allows it to occur with full access )

Edited October 18, 2014 by Fred Flinstone

[JLCrab]

From the report linked earlier:

3.3 (excerpt) However, foreign Governments are under no obligation to provide the FCO with any further

information, detail or support in relation to the death of a British national abroad. In some countries the investigating authorities and Courts may refuse to answer enquiries from third parties, including British consular staff.

3.4 The FCO cannot investigate deaths overseas.

UK POLICE INVOLVEMENT

5.1 Where a British national dies as a result of murder, manslaughter or infanticide overseas, it will be investigated by the appropriate authorities in that country. However, there are circumstances where it is best practice for UK Police to be involved.

5.2 (Excerpt) The decision on whether to appoint an SIO (Special Investigations Officer) rests with the Chief Officer of the appropriate Police Force. Circumstances where the appointment of an SIO is best practice will include:

Relatives request UK police to assist in establishing the circumstances of the death of a British national. This often arises where the family are dissatisfied with the investigation overseas, and seek advice in respect of best practice in murder investigation. It is important to remember here that UK Police have no power to conduct investigations overseas and the primacy of the relevant country must be respected;

(2012)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/141958/mou-fco-acpo-coroners.pdf

Edited October 18, 2014 by JLCrab

[kieran2698]

The Cameron bashing only comes from labour preferring 'British red shirts' too.

We get it, you're labour voting working class & proud of it, get over it.

Actually I helped vote Cameron in.

But 2 years ago defected my allegiance over to.

The first and only political party I have ever made a cash donation to in my life.

Political party, where did you get that idea? What you actually did is give an extremely wealthy ex-banker public school boy some fag and beer money.

[Oziex1]

I'm thinking that we are witnessing the final showdown between the military and the police in their power struggle.

Other posters have also alluded to this - Prayuth, in his new "international" role has been rudely awakened to the fact that Thailand is not the perfect, superior, isolated paradise and does have to answer to world opinion - like it or not.

He must be acutely aware that, in the eyes of the rest of the world, the disgraceful actions of the R.T.P. have caused Thailand and therefore he, as it's representative, severe embarrassment and, being that this man is far from stupid, he might just have decided to throw them to the wolves in an attempt to regain international credibility.

If I'm right, and time will tell, he will have made a very shrewd move.

He will have cemented his status as a true statesman whilst also salvaging the reputation of Thailand, ensuring that the Thai military are firmly in control of events and allowing the first real shakeup of the worthless R.T.P.

I'm only speculating, of course, but it would indeed be a fascinating scenario if it turns out to be true.........................

I hope your right A18, as if he is that shrewd his power and popularity will skyrocket and the traditional influential thugs power will diminish as they are exposed as nothing but an impediment to Thai growth in the international arena. It's a big one I know but lets continue to keep a positive outlook as lately i have been moving towards the naysayers camp.