Powerful Thai CSD boss removed

[heyexile]

having watched the general last night on tv seems to me he knows what he is doing

if you are going to reorganise its necessary to make changes and redundancies and you do that by getting the top man to do it

and then...

........ you ask your hand picked top cop to fall on his sword?

Or in a different type of regime in other places leaders sometimes resign over scandals.

[heyexile]

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So four major sackings at the top of the police in one week and not one clearly defined reson for any of them. The public interest is shat on once again.

So in your expert opinion it would have been in the public interest to leave these people in their top police jobs.

We hear all the time that the police force is extremely corrupt and needs a good clean out yet when top police who are presumable among the corrupt are moved on we see some complaining bitterly. You cant have it both ways, either a clean up starts or it doesn't and the top is a great place to start as it sends a clear message that no one is safe and is a huge loss of face for those that have lost their powerful jobs.

It is fine to remove these people but shouldn't the reasons be made public. OR is it just a reshuffle bringing in top cops who are more friendly to the junta?

Already brought in their own top cops Aug 20th 2014. Good Police Comm General Somyot is NCPO leader/PM hand picked appointee and PM is Supreme Commander Police Dept anyway. See link.

http://thaitribune.org/en/hot-issue/5886

[heyexile]

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So four major sackings at the top of the police in one week and not one clearly defined reson for any of them. The public interest is shat on once again.

So in your expert opinion it would have been in the public interest to leave these people in their top police jobs.

We hear all the time that the police force is extremely corrupt and needs a good clean out yet when top police who are presumable among the corrupt are moved on we see some complaining bitterly. You cant have it both ways, either a clean up starts or it doesn't and the top is a great place to start as it sends a clear message that no one is safe and is a huge loss of face for those that have lost their powerful jobs.

Corruption is fought with transparency and accountability.

Yet, by the complete lack of those two elements in these and other actions of sudden and unexplained police reassignments, one can only suspect there may be at best political motivations involved and at worse greater corruption involved. You can't have it both ways. Well, normally. But with the nation under martial law and the Rule of Law driven by Articles 17 and 44 of the Interim Charter giving the NCPO absolute power, transparency and accountability are not instruments against corruption.

Yes agree. Actually nothing is an effective instrument against corruption when you have an all powerful, self appointed regime with martial law. Criticism illegal, questioning illegal. No accountability to an electorate or an independent free press and the3 interim charter changes none of that as you point out.

Strange affair with the top brass at CIB and CSD. Far as I can tell all those top guys were in place with the blessing of good Pol Comm Gen Somyot and NCPO/PM at least since reshuffle of Aug 20th and probably before. Most of them seem to be connected with the Boss through 31st Class Police Academy and are long standing buddies/colleagues. Certainly some named replacements are but the originals too.

Falling on swords time maybe for the greater good of the reformist regime mission.

Political motivations and/or greater corruption. The influential islanders certainly have great contacts/influence back and forth to the ven Suthep via Surat Thani PDRC connections and maybe via him further and beyond. Wise men say ven Suthep has to be top dog in this menagerie but maybe he owes some favors and does not relish loose lips on inside pre take over activities since 2010.

Clear reason and clear outcomes unlikely because of media restrictions and all the controls.

[animatic]

It's not so much that they have done something wrong,

it is more a case of they had hitched their wagon to a horse who is no longer in charge.

They joined one team and stepped on toes in the process, and now those toes are aligned

with a different boss, and they are expected to step back, or in this case most likely they had gone to far,

and must be removed to 'inactive posts', meaning not fired, but run onto a siding out of the tea money train.

Where they can be watched for aiding potential sabotage moves from their old leaders trying to get back in power.

It is classic Thai feudal Kow-Tow methodology, and that runs the police as well as every organization

political or otherwise from top to bottom in the land. It is not per se corruption, because it is a way of life for all.

Edited November 15, 2014 by animatic

[heyexile]

It's not so much that they have done something wrong,

it is more a case of they had hitched their wagon to a horse who is no longer in charge.

They joined one team and stepped on toes in the process, and now those toes are aligned

with a different boss, and they are expected to step back, or in this case most likely they had gone to far,

and must be removed to 'inactive posts', meaning not fired, but run onto a siding out of the tea money train.

Where they can be watched for aiding potential sabotage moves from their old leaders trying to get back in power.

It is classic Thai feudal Kow-Tow methodology, and that runs the police as well as every organization

political or otherwise from top to bottom in the land. It is not per se corruption, because it is a way of life for all.

I understand what you say even though I lack some of way of life historical/political background knowledge from sometime in the past.

It still does not make `sense`. The police are a huge paramilitary force and a large powerful faction had to be on board for the coup to succeed. The complete domination of police dept was consolidated on Aug 20th, see link.

Whose horse could these CIB CSD top guys wagon have still been hitched to? The previous govt? Seems unlikely as their loyalties and positions so aligned with Pol Comm General Somyot. Or will they now be marked as anti-reformist reactionaries? How would they survive the coup planning and implementation stages if suspect to the new order? Some of them are post take over appointees!

http://thaitribune.org/en/hot-issue/5886

[animatic]

Still hitched or vacillating like the duplicitous Tharit from DSI, currently inactive. Who worked both sides, until he went too far this last time and made himself a very fast target for removal to the dreaded inactive post, and maybe more.

Remember the Army and Police are very much like competing mafias or feudal armies if you will. The army is by far the more powerful, and does not need a by your leave to change things.

There has never been a police lead coup of any success. Though no doubt police factions, out of favor with the current governance would place a loyalty bet on the army at the right moment. Hoping to be raised back on to the gravy and face train.

Edited November 15, 2014 by animatic

[MaiChai]

I wonder if the generals vision of a corruption free Thailand is unattainable? Put it another way: corruption and nepotism is so ingrained in Thai culture and its the way things are done that its impossible to get anything done without scratching someones back or bending the rules?

Reminds me of the old Thai movies on TV: someone is always in a gang and there is always a boss and everyone works for one boss or another boss.

[heyexile]

animatic #37

Yes good points. Did not mean a police lead coup. Obviously Army can do what it wants but does need support of rest of army. Can`t have tanks from North on the move to BKK so such factions/alliances consolidated during planning. Must have the navy and airforce on board too or at least their most powerful factions, otherwise embarrassing clashes occur.

Some support from `reformist` element of population also needed, hence importance of ven Suthep .Major police support, active or tacit, fairly essential post take over as vigorous policing, crack downs, spying, law and order, prevention of dissent and counter coup activities and so on, difficult for army to manage alone nation wide.

Edited November 15, 2014 by heyexile

[heyexile]

I wonder if the generals vision of a corruption free Thailand is unattainable? Put it another way: corruption and nepotism is so ingrained in Thai culture and its the way things are done that its impossible to get anything done without scratching someones back or bending the rules?

Reminds me of the old Thai movies on TV: someone is always in a gang and there is always a boss and everyone works for one boss or another boss.

As animatic has been explaining, this is not seen as `corruption` per se but as an honorable traditional way of life in Thailand. Thainess, Thai national values if you like.

The new order is all about maintaining, restoring, strengthening core historical Thai value systems and purging the land of alien types of democracy and western influences. They cant rid the land of something which does not really exist in their value system. New style western `corruption` bad. Traditional Thai systems of patronage, family, good. The world outside the feudal generals cant see this, but it is very real to these military traditionalists.

Shame we cant discuss intrigues in other possible institutions but well,TIT still.

[MaiChai]

555. The Thai and western values will never see eye to eye; agree to disagree!

[animatic]

The Internet is changing things.

Western ways, or just external views that there ARE other ways to be are finally filtering in to younger generations. But we are only just now seeing Internet communication raised politicians coming into power, and they won't take supremacy till many more of the old guard provincial dinosaurs have faded away.

The main issue is 100% Chinese, Kow Tow culture.

It was pretty much bitch slapped in communist China, but still used as a control mechanism, even as the leaders tried to erase Confucian culture. But this didn't happen in Thailand. It was a microcosm even next to it's neighbors. With the exception of Japanese control during WWII they have been an autonomous kingdom and culture. With the switch from Siam to Thailand, nationalism was used to cleave all disparate residents with several different genealogical / cultural links to neighbors. That national exceptionalism being the mechanism for " creating one thai people ", became one of homogenizing to a core set of beliefs locked into an absolutist 'us or them' nationalist ideology.

Now 3-4 generations on it is hard to back off from that 'creation of a state from chaos' nationalist stance that has passed it's usefulness, and is now hampering the country's progress. Kow Tow culture and nationalism, breeds resentment against strangers with different ideas, and a stonewalling of the country versus things that don't promote Thainess,,. That being the manufactured national identity of the last 80 years. 40 and older like these guts above are still steeped to the core in the old ways.

This picture is a microcosm of the culture and it's nationalism using the ancient ways to maintain social control. No wonder the Reds hate this, even as they themselves are caught in the same web of suzerainty within the larger culture. Just cleaving to different leaders with a facade of Maoist and capitalist modern methods overlaid.

Edited November 16, 2014 by animatic

[AleG]

The Internet is changing things.

Western ways, or just external views that there ARE other ways to be are finally filtering in to younger generations. But we are only just now seeing Internet communication raised politicians coming into power, and they won't take supremacy till many more of the old guard provincial dinosaurs have faded away.

The main issue is 100% Chinese, Kow Tow culture.

It was pretty much bitch slapped in communist China, but still used as a control mechanism, even as the leaders tried to erase Confucian culture. But this didn't happen in Thailand. It was a microcosm even next to it's neighbors. With the exception of Japanese control during WWII they have been an autonomous kingdom and culture. With the switch from Siam to Thailand, nationalism was used to cleave all disparate residents with several different genealogical / cultural links to neighbors. That national exceptionalism being the mechanism for " creating one thai people ", became one of homogenizing to a core set of beliefs locked into an absolutist 'us or them' nationalist ideology.

Now 3-4 generations on it is hard to back off from that 'creation of a state from chaos' nationalist stance that has passed it's usefulness, and is now hampering the country's progress. Kow Tow culture and nationalism, breeds resentment against strangers with different ideas, and a stonewalling of the country versus things that don't promote Thainess,,. That being the manufactured national identity of the last 80 years. 40 and older like these guts above are still steeped to the core in the old ways.

This picture is a microcosm of the culture and it's nationalism using the ancient ways to maintain social control. No wonder the Reds hate this, even as they themselves are caught in the same web of suzerainty within the larger culture. Just cleaving to different leaders with a facade of Maoist and capitalist modern methods overlaid.

Regarding your last paragraph, I'm reminded of a quote from Carl Jung: "Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate"

Edited November 16, 2014 by AleG

[Artisi]

I look forward to the reason these guys have been moved in such a swift fashion.

Looks ominous for them based on the speed of the transfer. Hopefully the full story

will come out soon.

Will it make any difference to you what " the full story" is and will that transfer into anything constructive as far as Thailand is concerned.

[heyexile]

The Internet is changing things.

Western ways, or just external views that there ARE other ways to be are finally filtering in to younger generations. But we are only just now seeing Internet communication raised politicians coming into power, and they won't take supremacy till many more of the old guard provincial dinosaurs have faded away.

The main issue is 100% Chinese, Kow Tow culture.

It was pretty much bitch slapped in communist China, but still used as a control mechanism, even as the leaders tried to erase Confucian culture. But this didn't happen in Thailand. It was a microcosm even next to it's neighbors. With the exception of Japanese control during WWII they have been an autonomous kingdom and culture. With the switch from Siam to Thailand, nationalism was used to cleave all disparate residents with several different genealogical / cultural links to neighbors. That national exceptionalism being the mechanism for " creating one thai people ", became one of homogenizing to a core set of beliefs locked into an absolutist 'us or them' nationalist ideology.

Now 3-4 generations on it is hard to back off from that 'creation of a state from chaos' nationalist stance that has passed it's usefulness, and is now hampering the country's progress. Kow Tow culture and nationalism, breeds resentment against strangers with different ideas, and a stonewalling of the country versus things that don't promote Thainess,,. That being the manufactured national identity of the last 80 years. 40 and older like these guts above are still steeped to the core in the old ways.

This picture is a microcosm of the culture and it's nationalism using the ancient ways to maintain social control. No wonder the Reds hate this, even as they themselves are caught in the same web of suzerainty within the larger culture. Just cleaving to different leaders with a facade of Maoist and capitalist modern methods overlaid.

As usual, can`t dispute your history.

The creation of a New SIAM-Thai one people nationalist state did seem to fail in that the elites cannot decide which ethnic groups should have been included as `True Thais, One People`. Isaan, Lao, hill tribe groups seem to have 2nd class status and are not Thai enough. Social media may counter massive social control but can of course be blocked quickly within Thailand under Martial Law. Meanwhile lets ban some more books.

[animatic]

Even the ethnic Chinese were subject to Thai-ization. Look for a Chinese name before a thai extension. Like Shin before Shinawatra.

When your country is at the crux of a multi-nation melting pot and trade cross roads, most all people have direct physical genetic relations with neighboring cultures. It will take a rather forceful assimilation process to make those people into one people that will fight off it's own blood cousins...

Those who are rejected are those that did not give up their cultural identity and languages, assimilate or be considered less beings and not really Thai. Again, that Über-nationalism rears it's persistent and pernicious head.

The book banning is a knee jerk reaction of the nationalist impulse, coupled to fear surrounding shoring up a smooth succession under assault by egotistic potential dynastic interests.

Edited November 16, 2014 by animatic

[zaZa9]

So four major sackings at the top of the police in one week and not one clearly defined reson for any of them. The public interest is shat on once again.

So in your expert opinion it would have been in the public interest to leave these people in their top police jobs.

We hear all the time that the police force is extremely corrupt and needs a good clean out yet when top police who are presumable among the corrupt are moved on we see some complaining bitterly. You cant have it both ways, either a clean up starts or it doesn't and the top is a great place to start as it sends a clear message that no one is safe and is a huge loss of face for those that have lost their powerful jobs.

So what if these cops are actually 'honest' and wont be bent and the really powerful want them out of the way ?

What then?

Its a scenario just as possible as that which you have 'presumed'.

[catsanddogs]

Interesting. The CID is the closest thing Thailand has to a real police force. I wonder what sparked this?

Well I'm sure they won't be able to keep it a secret for too long. Too much interest and global concern

to let that happen.

[sabaitoo]

1 is Dead and cremated...

Seem like one of the " removed " police bosses from CSD just have died from a fall from high place...more in the newspaper that we cannot qoute

Edited November 22, 2014 by sabaitoo

[phutoie2]

The family took the body to the Wat, and cremated just 30 minutes later. Nothing unusual there.

[jpeg]

The family took the body to the Wat, and cremated just 30 minutes later. Nothing unusual there.

What? A 'crime buster' gets transferred and dies shortly thereafter after falling from a great height crushing his spine and the top cop can't explain why? http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/778618-former-csd-crime-buster-dies-in-unexplained-circumstances/

[harrry]

If these people had their carears hitched to an ex politician's coattails they could not have been spending too much time doing the job they were paid for.