Chequebook Buddhism offers Thais stairway to heaven

[cookee68]

nothing will change here

[berybert]

Seeing people in rags walking past food and drink left out for the gods, If that is your religion/belief, hi ho carry on.

[issanaus]

I wonder if anyone here is aware that that Issara bloke is now claiming he is actually a new Siddhartha/Buddha.

Nice little interview in Thai at the weekend, the reporter is very surprised to hear issara claiming hes Phra Phuttha Jao. In Thai, translation is “the Venerable Lord Buddha,” or the enlightened one.

Seems to me Buddhism in Thailand is very much in crisis when people like this strut about making such outrageous statements.

I think something may have been mis-construed in the translation. My understanding from a friend who not only follows Luang Por Budda Issara but goes to his temple regularly, is that he made a vow to become a Boddhistava. A person who will forgo his going to heaven until every last person on the planet goes first. Which is a high vow indeed. If you can, will you post that interview you read, please.. I would like to pass it to my friend.. thanks..

Interesting, that if true, he's following Mahayana tradition, which is a bit confusing. In Theravada, one generates bodhicitta in order to attain enlightenment in this lifetime to benefit all sentient beings. Lighting the way, so to speak.

I'd like to see that interview sourced also, even if it's in Thai.

I'm going to expound on that just a little more:

Interesting, that if true, he's following Mahayana tradition, which is a bit confusing. In Theravada, one generates bodhicitta in order to attain enlightenment in this lifetime to benefit all sentient beings. Lighting the way, so to speak. But, not to 'heaven' which is just another existence in the dualistic universe: an existence with a beginning and an end. Buddha didn't teach followers to strive toward heaven; he taught to end suffering by attaining a state of non-dualistic consciousness: Being.

So when I hear of Buddhist institutions conjoling their followers to give money in order to attain a heavenly realm, I start to believe that folks are being led down the garden path. This is no way in line with the core concepts of Buddhism. It debases the fundamental concepts and warps the true teachings. If you've been able to experience these realities, first hand, though years of mediation, it's just evident. For for those who practice morality and meditation only on a limited scale (if at all), it's easy to fall for the rhetoric that you can somehow buy your way to 'heaven' or some other dualistic realm that was never discussed as a goal for attainment by the Lord Buddha, nor the arahants that followed. This money given and money requested paradigm simply spins the cycle of samsara. Buddha didn't say indulge in the cycle of samsara, he said to break out of it. How many people extend generosity without wishing or expecting anything back in return. I do. And it confuses the heck out of my wife and Thai friends. When I tell them that I'm just setting the conditions that may help me also to break the cycle of samsara, most people don't get it. Everyone else is wishing for a lucky lotto ticket.

Very nicely and accurately stated, thanks

The problem with Buddhism (or insert any other religion) in Thailand (or insert the name of any other country) goes back to why people "identify" with any belief. The saying that Religion without philosophy is only sentimentality is self evident in Thailand today. As such it is easy to distort (pervert) 'Buddhism' to teaching to meet some very secular goals that conflict with the core teachings.

[jerojero]

20 baht is not $1.

... It is in Canada now! 555

[AZBill]

I don't have an issue with it. The gifts are made with good intentions and those who donate believe they are doing a good thing. It's the giving act that matters and not what the monks do with it. If they choose to misuse such a gift then that is on their karma!

[Docno]

A large part of the problem is the ritualistic, non-reflective way most people around the world practice their faith. They rely on 'authorities' to tell them how 'god' thinks and what's in their holy book(s), and of course these so-called authorities can pick-and-choose their messages and outrightly distort things. Happens everywhere. A couple of weeks ago I was talking to my friend's Vietnamese wife, and she (a devout Buddhist) refused to believe it when I told her that Buddha (Gautama Siddartha) had been married, had had a son, and had abandoned his family (after a party at which dancing girls provided the entertainment) to seek a path to enlightenment. Now it's possible that Vietnamese Buddhism has a different 'biography' for the Buddha, but she said that she has never read any Buddhist texts.... she just goes to the temple to pray.

[connda]

I'm going to expound on that just a little more:

Interesting, that if true, he's following Mahayana tradition, which is a bit confusing. In Theravada, one generates bodhicitta in order to attain enlightenment in this lifetime to benefit all sentient beings. Lighting the way, so to speak. But, not to 'heaven' which is just another existence in the dualistic universe: an existence with a beginning and an end. Buddha didn't teach followers to strive toward heaven; he taught to end suffering by attaining a state of non-dualistic consciousness: Being.

So when I hear of Buddhist institutions conjoling their followers to give money in order to attain a heavenly realm, I start to believe that folks are being led down the garden path. This is no way in line with the core concepts of Buddhism. It debases the fundamental concepts and warps the true teachings. If you've been able to experience these realities, first hand, though years of mediation, it's just evident. For for those who practice morality and meditation only on a limited scale (if at all), it's easy to fall for the rhetoric that you can somehow buy your way to 'heaven' or some other dualistic realm that was never discussed as a goal for attainment by the Lord Buddha, nor the arahants that followed. This money given and money requested paradigm simply spins the cycle of samsara. Buddha didn't say indulge in the cycle of samsara, he said to break out of it. How many people extend generosity without wishing or expecting anything back in return. I do. And it confuses the heck out of my wife and Thai friends. When I tell them that I'm just setting the conditions that may help me also to break the cycle of samsara, most people don't get it. Everyone else is wishing for a lucky lotto ticket.

Very nicely and accurately stated, thanks

The problem with Buddhism (or insert any other religion) in Thailand (or insert the name of any other country) goes back to why people "identify" with any belief. The saying that Religion without philosophy is only sentimentality is self evident in Thailand today. As such it is easy to distort (pervert) 'Buddhism' to teaching to meet some very secular goals that conflict with the core teachings.

And I agree with your insight here. Interestingly enough, although I identify myself as a Buddhist, I will also tell anyone who will listen that I believe the core teachings of the Buddha have nothing to do with religion. It's a practice that brings about a specific result. Philosophy in action might be more accurate. But I don't proselytize that view point, I simply live it.

[Johpa]

Seems to me Buddhism in Thailand is very much in crisis when people like this strut about making such outrageous statements.

Not just Buddhism in Thailand but in most religions millenarianism and charismatic figures come to the forefront during times of crisis and change. May I suggest Norman Cohn's book "The Pursuit of the Millenium". And, if I recall correctly, Prof. Keyes wrote a number of scholarly articles on millenarianism within Southeast Asia.

As for Chequebook Buddhism, perhaps compare it to the Christian "Prosperity Gospel". It might be interesting to see if such prosperity movements tend to coincide with millenarian movements.

[khaowong1]

Seems to me Buddhism in Thailand is very much in crisis when people like this strut about making such outrageous statements.

Not just Buddhism in Thailand but in most religions millenarianism and charismatic figures come to the forefront during times of crisis and change. May I suggest Norman Cohn's book "The Pursuit of the Millenium". And, if I recall correctly, Prof. Keyes wrote a number of scholarly articles on millenarianism within Southeast Asia.

As for Chequebook Buddhism, perhaps compare it to the Christian "Prosperity Gospel". It might be interesting to see if such prosperity movements tend to coincide with millenarian movements.

Yeah, maybe 10 - 15 years ago or even longer, the "Prosperity Gospel" was going on really strong. Every Evangelist on TV was into it. I wonder how that worked out?

[issanaus]

I'm going to expound on that just a little more:

Interesting, that if true, he's following Mahayana tradition, which is a bit confusing. In Theravada, one generates bodhicitta in order to attain enlightenment in this lifetime to benefit all sentient beings. Lighting the way, so to speak. But, not to 'heaven' which is just another existence in the dualistic universe: an existence with a beginning and an end. Buddha didn't teach followers to strive toward heaven; he taught to end suffering by attaining a state of non-dualistic consciousness: Being.

So when I hear of Buddhist institutions conjoling their followers to give money in order to attain a heavenly realm, I start to believe that folks are being led down the garden path. This is no way in line with the core concepts of Buddhism. It debases the fundamental concepts and warps the true teachings. If you've been able to experience these realities, first hand, though years of mediation, it's just evident. For for those who practice morality and meditation only on a limited scale (if at all), it's easy to fall for the rhetoric that you can somehow buy your way to 'heaven' or some other dualistic realm that was never discussed as a goal for attainment by the Lord Buddha, nor the arahants that followed. This money given and money requested paradigm simply spins the cycle of samsara. Buddha didn't say indulge in the cycle of samsara, he said to break out of it. How many people extend generosity without wishing or expecting anything back in return. I do. And it confuses the heck out of my wife and Thai friends. When I tell them that I'm just setting the conditions that may help me also to break the cycle of samsara, most people don't get it. Everyone else is wishing for a lucky lotto ticket.

Very nicely and accurately stated, thanks

The problem with Buddhism (or insert any other religion) in Thailand (or insert the name of any other country) goes back to why people "identify" with any belief. The saying that Religion without philosophy is only sentimentality is self evident in Thailand today. As such it is easy to distort (pervert) 'Buddhism' to teaching to meet some very secular goals that conflict with the core teachings.

And I agree with your insight here. Interestingly enough, although I identify myself as a Buddhist, I will also tell anyone who will listen that I believe the core teachings of the Buddha have nothing to do with religion. It's a practice that brings about a specific result. Philosophy in action might be more accurate. But I don't proselytize that view point, I simply live it.

Alas the danger of conventional truth, labels and views, 55. The basic core of ;Buddhist teachings are part of a philosophy that can be tested with observer able results. The problem being (and very much related to the OP) is that Buddhism is more marketable as a religion with rituals and adornments than a philosophy that requires effort and concentration, The result of this is that the most commercially successful marketing of "Buddhism" would be Wat Dhammakaya with its emphasis on 'Drama' rather than 'Dhamma'. The logical extension of such teachings is a belief of self rather than a strategy of non self . A merit focused practice biased on giving (with the expectation of rewards and without discernment) could be attractive to those who have bought into the contemporary culture of instant gratification delivered for a fee.

[Johpa]

As for Chequebook Buddhism, perhaps compare it to the Christian "Prosperity Gospel". It might be interesting to see if such prosperity movements tend to coincide with millenarian movements.

Yeah, maybe 10 - 15 years ago or even longer, the "Prosperity Gospel" was going on really strong. Every Evangelist on TV was into it. I wonder how that worked out?

Judging from recent news items Prosperity Gospel continues to be a strong and attractive message to the faithful. Edited April 4, 2015 by Johpa

[khaowong1]

As for Chequebook Buddhism, perhaps compare it to the Christian "Prosperity Gospel". It might be interesting to see if such prosperity movements tend to coincide with millenarian movements.

Yeah, maybe 10 - 15 years ago or even longer, the "Prosperity Gospel" was going on really strong. Every Evangelist on TV was into it. I wonder how that worked out?

Judging from recent news items Prosperity Gospel continues to be a strong and attractive message to the faithful.

Didn't help Pastor Robert Schueller much, he lost everything. The Crystal Cathedral. Although I bet he had some stashed away somewhere.

[mikemac]

I was sitting outside a pub sipping a bourbon, recently, when a barefoot monk walked past. He walked past the next door shop house where there was a pair of shoes on the doorstep. He stopped, turned back, and slipped the shoes onto his feet, then carried on. Other people saw him, nobody even took a second glance.

Bastado !

I hope he gets life !

[MaxYakov]

''Deeply Religious Thailand ''...............what a laugh that is !

Yeah, "deeply obsessive" would have been more accurate.

[connda]

Seems to me Buddhism in Thailand is very much in crisis when people like this strut about making such outrageous statements.

Not just Buddhism in Thailand but in most religions millenarianism and charismatic figures come to the forefront during times of crisis and change. May I suggest Norman Cohn's book "The Pursuit of the Millenium". And, if I recall correctly, Prof. Keyes wrote a number of scholarly articles on millenarianism within Southeast Asia.

As for Chequebook Buddhism, perhaps compare it to the Christian "Prosperity Gospel". It might be interesting to see if such prosperity movements tend to coincide with millenarian movements.

Yeah, maybe 10 - 15 years ago or even longer, the "Prosperity Gospel" was going on really strong. Every Evangelist on TV was into it. I wonder how that worked out?

For the TV Evangelists? "Cha-ching!!!" $$$ ฿฿฿

Like many Western Buddhists, I was brought up Christian. I wonder how many disenfrancised Catholics and Jews end up Buddhist Lol.

Anyway, throughout my life money and Christianity have always been a bit of a conundrum to me. I was married to a devout Christian. Closet Buddhist that I was (I say this jokingly because I never hid the fact), going to church with the wife was never a problem. I'd just sit and meditate, but occasionally the sermons would get my attention, especially when they gravitated toward the concept of prayer and faith bringing the 'generously devout' material prosperity. Like Buddhism, I had a pretty simplistic view of Christianity too. Jesus consistently extolled his followers about the pursuit of wealth (mammon). I don't read too much into the bible (highly edited in the 4th Century AD and way too cryptic), but you can filter out the primary themes easily enough. Jesus and Buddha were pretty much on the same playing field on that subject, and probably for the same reason. It's like imposable to get to a state of self-realization when your greed and wants are like a bottomless pit. Thematically it resonates in both Buddhism and Christianity. But when an individual stops the process of intuitive introspection and starts following a "Spiritual Leader", especially very prosperous "Spiritual Leaders" living in luxury and grandeur and imploring their followers to give, give, give to buy their way to heavenly delights, I've only one piece of advice: "Run!" I could see through this type of rhetoric in my early teens, and now I really feel a sort of sad compassion for people who take the bait: hook, line, and sinker; those who can't discern the con job; those who believe that they too can aspired to building a Crystal Cathedral in their back yard, who aspired to swaying the ignorant masses of sinners and seekers to the 'True Word of the Almighty' for a small tithe, perhaps 10% of your gross income will do.

I see a monk on tudong and compare him with a charismatic spiritual 'authority' living in the lap of luxury, surrounded by body guards and security, unapproachable, and it's easy to tell who is really on 'The Path'. But as P.T. Barnum so aptly said, "There's a sucker born every minute." I think we could change the wording just a little to reflect to arising and passing away of existence, and restate this as, "There's a sucker coming into existence every minute." "Welcome to Church ABC / Wat XYZ." God/Buddha will reward your generosity with heavenly pleasures both here on earth and in paradise. Just give until it hurts. The more you give to us God/Buddha, the more you'll receive bothers/sisters|pee/nong. It would be hilarious, except it really isn't. It probably explains why I will generously give food to monks, and if neccessary I'll give my time and energy to assist my local wats to clean, build, paint, and generally provide upkeep for the wat. But money? It isn't going to happen. If the monks can't follow the Vinyana, I can help them. "But, but, Phra SomeNameVeryPali is an arahant! Everyone agrees. Who are you to question and criticize the actions of a whiskey drinking, cigarette smoking, beer swilling, babe hugging, arahant with a stock portfolio that would make Jamie Dimon jealous? You don't understand the nature of an enlightened being. You should be ashamed!!!" Sorry, I'm not. For some unexplained reason, I see though it. Karma? lol

Sila, samadhi, and panna combined with metta. What else do you need. Food, cloths, and a roof over your head. Why complicate it? Because you 'need' a stretch limo? Mercedes? Louis Vuitton handbag, Rolex, and a Lear jet? Rolling on the floor laughing my buns off. <sigh> And this too will pass.

Edited April 5, 2015 by connda

[Beetlejuice]

This is peanuts.

For 1 million baht the monks could issue a heaven elite card, that would entitle holders to discount cloud surfing, a one year supply of holy water, free membership for the Angels body to body massage clubs for he older clientèle staffed by the sisters of mercy, and 50% off fares travelling via the astral plane.

It would be a best seller,. Surprised they haven`t thought of this one yet.

[Chris Lawrence]

They need to be audited the same as any company. Same for all religious organisations around the world.

Most religions are very good to have. It’s just the human element that sets out to administer and control that is at the core root of the problem.

[nidieunimaitre]

Chequebook Buddhism offers Thais stairway to heaven

4 pages, and still not the obvious reaction.....

OK, here it is:

Forget Buddhism, checkbook or not, I will offer you Stairway to Heaven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q7Vr3yQYWQ

[nidieunimaitre]

This is peanuts.

For 1 million baht the monks could issue a heaven elite card, that would entitle holders to discount cloud surfing, a one year supply of holy water, free membership for the Angels body to body massage clubs for he older clientèle staffed by the sisters of mercy, and 50% off fares travelling via the astral plane.

It would be a best seller,. Surprised they haven`t thought of this one yet.

And they could throw in a "not happy? money back guarantee".

Not just a life time guarantee, no, a multiple life time guarantee.