Thai woman's opinion about non-bargirls

[lumar]

This is a letter from a reader of The Bangkok Post.

I think it is interesting because it is the opinion of a Thai woman about ladies who are *not* bargirls.

Regards,

* * * * *

My husband and I have witnessed several cases of interracial marriage, and we have an English friend who is interested in the possibility. I am a Thai, and even I find it difficult to recommend that he marry a Thai lady.

Thai ladies are caring and well able to look after their husbands in all domestic respects, but at what cost? Is bankruptcy a reasonable price to pay?

No doubt some financial aid to the family is only to be expected; what family wouldn't do that? But the cool, calculating siphoning off of all their husband's wealth to finance houses for in-laws, motorbikes for nephews, sewing machines for sisters-in-law the list goes on - is ridiculous, and I wonder how many men are aware of the trap that is

being laid for them.

I realise this is a gross generalisation, and that, like my husband and I, there must be many happily married couples, but there is a significant number of cases where this happens.

What has moved me to write all this is a recent phone call from a girl I was at school with in Thailand who is seeking advice in her efforts to marry an Englishman. She confessed on the phone that she was desperate to marry and come to England.

You might think this is a desperate bar-girl making a bid to escape a desperate situation. In fact, this girl is a well-educated person with a respectable job. I don't know whether to contact her fiancé and warn him, or whether to think it serves him right for marrying someone without really knowing her at all.

My point in saying all this is that I, as a Thai lady, am ashamed of these women, and the cool, calculating way they choose their husbands and exploit them. I am ashamed of the culture that has created them.

What's happened to Buddhism? What's happened to humility and respect?

What's happened to Thailand?

I know there is another side to this argument, and that it is not only the women who are to blame. "It takes two to tango", as they say in England.

It is a case of culture: the culture in England where a Thai wife is an easy option for many lonely bachelors looking for a wife; the culture in Thailand where for many women, Western men are seen as a resource to be exploited; and the culture in Thailand that has created a situation in which women will do anything to get money for their families, and in which money has become so important.

[Rinrada]

Men and dare I suggest Women are the same the world over and so are the odds of a amicable liasion between them, whether they are THAI/US/UK/Heinz 57 or whatever.Mutual respect is the essence,,,,Thai It

[aitch]

I have been working in the Washington DC area for quite some time now and although i am unable to speak for someone in England, perhaps some of the perspectives on this end may be somewhat similar.

    I ride the subway everyday to work and I have observed scores of single, successful, intelligent men. I would estimate that about 2 million Baht a year salary would be on the low average end. Keeping in mind that this is DC and how expensive it is to live here, I would guess that a good portion of the single women here would be looking for someone who makes about 3 million Baht or more. Resulting in a substantial amount of the available women competing for those men who make more. Money is not the only issue at hand here but it is a big one.

    It is quite possble that your English friend understands what is happening only to conclude that:

1- He can do more for less for your friend as opposed to someone in England.

2- Why compete when the numbers are stacked against him ?

    If she has strong feelings for this fellow and wants him to be a part of her family, then her motives may not be so shallow. Honestly I believe that he is somewhat aware of the trap you were alluding to and that if you do not understand what he deals with on a day to day basis, it might not be so bad after all. Besides he may be thinking that he that could retire there in Thailand in which case everything may just even out in the end. He may just be daring to 'live the dream' so to speak. In which case my hat is off to him.

     The fact that you are concerned is very encouraging. While I was in Thailand I did not so much as get a dirty look. I get several of those on the subway here without even trying.

[pnustedt]

I agree with aitch's comments. It is so much more rewarding to contribute to a Thai family where "you can do more for less" and I consider myself fortunate to have been accepted as a member of such a family.

[Butterfly]

People, let's face it, Thai women are only doing what the farang ladies have been doing for years... they are just getting smarter... it's inevitable... I see a change already in young women attitude from 5 years ago... even the bar girls have a different approach to men now... this is bound to happen no matter what... It's a woman duty to think about her future... however it all depends how it is done, and the Thai women are just following the way western women do it... I think it's just a question of woman generation...

[elliss]

i, m only here for the beer [ john smiths ,no ice]  

[dazdaz]

It's funny really, those in the East want to come to the West and those in the West want to come to the East.  Both think they'll have better lives and neither are prepared to compromise.

One wants to come from a slower to a faster life, and the other from a faster to a slower life, back to basics.

I'm not going to judge people's individual decisions, but I do wonder why people hav'nt learnt their lessons.  I've read of many cases of Asian wives moving to the West, and lead materialistically better lives, but emotionally poorer lives.  In fact these poor women are so ###### unhappy their prepared to commit suicide at a whim, so what went wrong?

I think the answer is simple.  They were rich originally, but did'nt realise it.  They had happiness and health, and friends and a rich culture and family which they did'nt realise just how important it was, and gave it all up for money, to be happy.

What concerns me, is that people won't learn from others mistakes and the cycle will continue.  It's ashame to see people in so much pain because of a false sense of happiness.

You talk about future, but what about your present and future happiness, is'nt that more important than any $ ?  I think what's happening is that Thailand is redefining itself very quickly with the present values of the world, that just don't seem to be fulfilling enough.  What they had was so rich, and now as Western culture (values) mix and disturb their lives, it's causing mayhem and confusion with what's important and what's not.

People were always meant to live together, but as society continues, we're increasingly isolated, yet there's more people, so at first it does'nt make sense. In the West, everyone has their secure houses, with entertainment systems and so forth, but for what?  It's only to reinforce the false sense of who that person is, so they don't have to mix with people, they can also get a false sense of doing this through television.  It's like living life through a pinhole.

It's no wonder so many people want to move out, and start a new life, something with more human interaction but by bringing a wife back to the West is generally a bad move, as their ill prepared and just makes that whole isolation thing worse than ever, you just have 2 isolated people together living a fantasy.

If the whole world went back to basics, it'd solve many problems.

Why don't we talk about ways of trying to correct this problem instead of wallowing in the sickness.  How can we educate Thai wives for example not to siphon off every penny, that would be far more useful.

Regards

[sevinnow]

Well as I read many of the replies on this page many which do not really say much there has been one exception the comments  "dazdaz" mentioned above.

Everything you wanted to say but never knew how has been said in his reply........my hat comes to him.

Has it happens I am part of a very close and concerning family in Issan....so that makes a little bit of a "don't do it" comment very wrong it can work and work well.

:cool:

[D80]

Hmm.. I have seen letter thing this before somewhere.

I don't know... I am just going to say something quite simple here. But I've gotta warn you, this is gonna be long.  If you can't be bother to read it, skip now.  

I am a Thai woman myself.  I am married to a foreigner.  I don't have any negative (or positive) view about bar girls or any other girls who want to marry a foreigner for whatever reasons.  I am just indifferent AS LONG AS nobody is fooling anybody.  If they are both adults and they know what they want and they know what they are getting into, it's their business, in my opinion.

For me, I did not make a conscious decision to seek a westerner to marry.  It's just so happened that the person I love who loves me is not Thai.  It doesn't really matter as long as we love each other and we are compatible.  I wouldn't want my husband to pay for my family.  I find that rather insulting and embarressing, so do my parents.  I have been taught to have pride and to stand on my own two feet.  If I want to express my gratitude to my own family, it will have to be from my own labour and not from any other's.  That's just my family and my view.  Every family is different (I don't intend to condemn anyone here).

I did get annoyed before when I hear about Thai women who just want to find a foreign husband and I told my hubby about it.  I just felt as if it cannot be real love if they are just attracted to westerner.  My hubby then asked me what's actually wrong with it, if a Thai woman prefers a Western husband.  I thought about that, and to a certain extent I think that's true.  It did sort of change my view on this matter.  

I think some of the ladies who think they want to find a husband in the UK,US,AUS etc etc don't often know what they are getting themselves into.  Some of them just have this misconception that it is great living abroad and all your wish will come true.  you will have a better life and all the rest of it.  They don't think about the loneliness that they may have to face, the time when they will miss all their friends and family.  The culture differences that could lead to so many misunderstandings.  The difficult times when work has to be done and the reality that money don't grow on trees.  And obviously, all their wish in life won't come true just because they move to some 'developed' country.  True, there are things in the west that are in some way 'better' (for want of better words), like health care, education, welfare.  But that doesn't mean that they will have a 'better life' as such.

If someone wants a foreign husband because they are attracted to people from such background, I would say go for it.  So what if they are more attracted to a westerner than a Thai and would prefer a western husband?  Loads of western men are more attracted to Asian ladies and make no attempt to hide it.  There's nothing wrong with being attracted to people from certain types of background.  I don't see the problem as long as they don't have some misconception about the west being neverland or some utopia.  (likewise, Western men who have the fantasy of an Asian woman being submissive, domesticated, obedient and docile will often be extremely disappointed)  

For those who just want an easy ride by marrying in such manner, I think that's been happening for some time in the world and not just Thailand anyway.  There are loads of money grabber, bloodsuckers around, men and women.  We just have to watch out for these people in any area in life anyway, including love & relationship.  So, I don't see the problem as 'what's happening to Buddhism? what's happening to Thailand?'.  I would probably say to the lady asking this question 'wake up, sister! where have you been all these years!'  Yeah, it's sad, but hey, the world is not perfect and all you can do is try your best not to be sucked into these sorts of things!

and oh, p.s. 'How can we educate Thai wives for example not to siphon off every penny, that would be far more useful.'---> You don't really mean 'Thai wives' in general, do you, mate?  I would rather say 'people who are careless with money'.  My husband is a bigger spender than me!  It's the Thai wives like me who have to put a brake on that!  

[aitch]

I would have to concur with D80. One mate blindsiding the other is the problem. A friend who is worried should just come out and say so.

For someone from the east to pack up and go to the west without being told what to expect is cruel. Had that been brought that up in the letter I would have addressed it.

[pnustedt]

I guess, when it comes to money, it's all about priorities and understanding each other's priorities.

I am married to a Thai wife from a poor Isaan family. Last week, when I filled up at the local petrol station I tipped the excellent service - my wife complained that her sister has just worked all night for the same amount I had tipped the attendant for two minutes. I pointed out that the problem was that her sister needs to find a way of getting more meaningful work, my tipping the pump attendant was irrelevant, I understood her point and she mine.

There will be many more compromises on priorities when living among a poor Thai family - do you pay for medical treatment for her mother, or a good education for a bright child, pay for an operation for an elderly neighbour who needs catarac treatment, or have an exotic holiday/buy a flashy car?

The same is true for all relationships but the contrasts are more stark.

Whether you will be happy living in Isaan amongst rice farmers will depend a lot on your motives and your relationships - I don't really think that race or culture has a lot to do with it. Buddhism is a tolerant religion and, as long as you are flexible in your outlook (and have a good sense of humour) living in a mixed race marriage can be enlightening.

[LordHawHaw]

What a magnetic topic!  Everybody has an opinion...

Briefly:

1.  Suicide was mentioned.  Female suicide, whether merely threatened, attempted or successful, is a relatively common phenomenon in Thailand.  I suspect Thai culture is responsible for this pattern.  Take the girl out of the country, and she's still a Thai.

2.  The fact is that Thai females are far more likely to expect their (presumably wealthy) husbands to support their extended families than are females from a Western European culture.  This is a clear pattern.  

3.  Exceptions exist.  There are always exceptions.  That does not change the fact that the patterns describe the behavior of most, or many, of the people who share a culture.  Citing several exceptions does not refute the pattern.  A cultural pattern need not describe the behavior of most of the people -- it can be an accurate way of understanding an aspect of the culture, as long as it is qualified with such phrases as, "A large minority...."

4.  We talk a lot about bar girls as if they were somehow distinct from girls who do not work in bars.  Yes, working in a bar probably does change a girl, and yes, those who gravitate to the work probably are predisposed to it by temperament, to some degree.  But there is one underlying fact: many of the behaviors of Thai bar girls are Thai behaviors, period.  How many?  My guess is most, and very probably all the significant behaviors.  I feel that Thai bar girls are Thai girls, and that it would be very hard to make the case that they are genuinely distinct in attitude, values, opinions, responses from Thai girls who do not work in bars.  Yes, we could debate this, but it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to bring genuine evidence to bear on the topic.  (By genuine, I mean non-anecdotal.)

5.  The influence of Buddhism and Buddhist thought on Thai culture is often overstated.  Thai religious practice is composed of three elements: animism, Brahmanism (Hinduism), and Buddhism.  It makes about as much sense to talk of Thai culture being essentially Buddhist as it does to insist that Thai culture is essentially animist.  Much of what Thais believe literally contradicts the teachings of the founder of Buddhism; how pervasive Buddhist thought is in Thai culture is another topic that could be debated to little effect.  I don't want to get into that trap, but it is safe to say that when we attribute Thai attitudes to Buddhism, we often exaggerate, overlook, and misunderstand.  All predominantly Buddhist nations are not alike.  Much of the patience and serenity we Westerners THINK we see is not what it appears (it can be just tightly-gritted teeth and a silent vow to get even), and where patience and serenity actually exist in Thailand, they may or may not be due to Buddhist influence.  This is a complex subject that has often been dismissed with a simple answer.  No, I won't be drawn on the issue!

6.  Everyone has an opinion that expresses genuine experience, reflects sincerely-held values, and makes a certain amount of sense.  Read them all to get a view of the complexity of the subject!

[simon43]

Very interesting topic and I'll add my own comments. My Thai GF has no interest in leaving Thailand and living in a strange, western country where itv rains most of the time.  She loves Thailand and is very happy that my business allows me to live in Thailand with her.  She has a very poor family, but does not expect me to support them. Her view is that giving 'western' money to such a poor family will do them no good at all.  Rather, she prefers to encourage them to work hard and achieve an acceptable standard of living.  Of course, I am very happy to help them out, especially for things like hospital treatment etc.  Is this unusual for a Thai girl?  Perhaps one relevant point is that my GF is a Muslim girl from southern Thailand. Does religion really affect people's attitude to western guys??

[Morgan]

Sad thai wives prepared to commit suicide thats a new one on me never heard of it. There are thousands of thai wives in the uk it seems every time i go to the town center i see another new face with a thai wife. Now there must be some who dont like lifestyle or miss their familes too much and want to go home (again never heard of any)but they just jump on a plane back to thai dont they. One friend of the wife whose husband died around two years ago sold up and with more than enough money to retire went back to thailand she now spends most of the time at friends houses in the uk.

No i dont see lots of sad thai people in the uk but thats just me i could very well be wrong.

Cheers Morgan.

[singa-traz]

I remember where I saw this ... thanks Google:

http://groups.google.com/groups?....r#link1

I also remember sided-threads, wondering if the letter was not just 'fabricated' ... Someone who had a bad experience ? ... but Google don't want me to locate those replies ...

[TSC]

Lots of things already have been said about Thai women, some are right, some maybe wrong...

Check this out > Meet Thai Ladies.

Thai Sweetheart Club is the place to meet some, try it.

[oxo]

Just started a relationship with a nice Thai lady, lets hope Love can outway money.  Very interesting comments, I certainly will take care and appreciate everyones views.  With forums like these maybe pitfalls can be avoided.  Well! only time will tell.

[sander]

There was a programm on tv in Holland (where I'm from but I'm sure it was in many countries) called 'Who wants to marry a millionaire?'. In Holland, not a poor country by any standard, 3000 women applied. They never saw the guy, they knew nothing about him other than the fact that he was wealthy.

Apart from that I do think that Thai, although I wouldn't want to call them lazy, do have a tendency to welcome easy oportunities, especially whenever there are farang involved.

[en184]

Hi,

Thai women are not so different to western women.  They are just overall better looking and more caring and kind.

Western girls are just as interested in meeting a wealthy male as thai girls are.

I find thai women alot more attractive than western women, and perhaps many thai girls find western men alot more attractive than thai men.  Money may not play a role.

Perhaps, there is a natural human desire to diversify ones genes.   A thai-english marriage for example, would produce children with better genes than are available in the UK.

Sending a few hundred dollars every month to the thai family is not so bad.    Having a thai wife actually makes you money, because you feel happier, work better at your job, save more money, (married husbands do not frequent cabarets and gogo bars so much).  Having a thai wife can mean making great strides forward in business.

For example: If your wife tells you:  I want you make alot money, you sure will find a way to do it.

[caughtintheact]

Since everyone wants to get in on the act, I guess my handle entitles me to at least get caught in the act.  

What I am seeing is a combination of generalizations and specifics, which only go to show that no matter the circumstances, sometimes things work out and sometimes they do not.  

But I really want to get my 2 cents in about the initial letter about bar girls.  I've been living in Thailand for over 25 years, and know many, many bar girls.  But in all my time here I have yet to meet one that before going to work in a bar did not go to the at and pray for forgiveness for what they were going to do.  They are just human beings thrust into bad circumstances by a combination of fate and a lousy education system that is so boring, that anything seems better than sitting half asleep in a classroom.  And because of the type of society Thailand has, a lack of education is almost a total constraint on improving life.  I've also known girls and ladies from wealthy families that were more greedy than any girl I've ever met  that worked in a bar.  It's easy enough to look down on those with lesser advantages than we have, and Thai social mores are very good at that (OK, not just Thailand).  People are people and we are all different.  The Thai, more than most other people whom I've met in my over 60 years of life, know that no two people are equal.  That means that all people are different. Criticism if and when really necessary, should be based on actions, not on anything else.  I've also known a number of couples in mixed marriaged in my home country.  Many of these marriages work out, many do not, but without knowing two sides of the story, making generalizations about such marriages or ridiculing girls who work for a pittance and want something more proves absolutely nothing.

[fasteer]

I'm not certain that my second wife will be a Thai, although there seems a good possibility.  I would like to make one small comment, however.  If I do marry a Thai, her and her family will have to work very hard to spend more of my money than my first (western) wife did!!!

[wolf5370]

Here, here Fasteer!

My first wife left me wallowing in debt - I was only 21 (12 years ago) and it took me a lot to get out of it. She was Irish desent British.

My second wife of 5 years now, who is Thai (though not from a poor (or particularly wealthy) family nor a Bar Girl - infact she'd never been allowed in a Bar until I started courting her (with shaperone of course)), as D80 said, the one that keeps me in check. Now I earn much more than I did then (about 6 fold), and my Thai wife ensures that I don't blow it all on 'toys' as is my ilk.

:cool: