Cyclist safety on Chiang Mai streets

[Ulysses G.]

Oh dear...what a tradgedy...you would think on a pushbike you would be safe enough..but not here obviously.

An awful lot of Thai drivers have no common sense. They pass a bicycle only inches away, and if one happens to swerve to avoid a pothole or some glass or whatever...

Bye, bye.

[Ajarn]

Oh dear...what a tradgedy...you would think on a pushbike you would be safe enough..but not here obviously.

An awful lot of Thai drivers have no common sense. They pass a bicycle only inches away, and if one happens to swerve to avoid a pothole or some glass or whatever...

Bye, bye.

I figure that the bike rider should take care not to be in a dangerous position near a car.

[Ulysses G.]

Oh dear...what a tradgedy...you would think on a pushbike you would be safe enough..but not here obviously.

An awful lot of Thai drivers have no common sense. They pass a bicycle only inches away, and if one happens to swerve to avoid a pothole or some glass or whatever...

Bye, bye.

I figure that the bike rider should take care not to be in a dangerous position near a car.

Thais tend to use every inch of space on the road, making it VERY difficult to stay away from them.

[Ajarn]

Oh dear...what a tradgedy...you would think on a pushbike you would be safe enough..but not here obviously.

An awful lot of Thai drivers have no common sense. They pass a bicycle only inches away, and if one happens to swerve to avoid a pothole or some glass or whatever...

Bye, bye.

I figure that the bike rider should take care not to be in a dangerous position near a car.

Thais tend to use every inch of space on the road, making it VERY difficult to stay away from them.

I think you need to get a car...

[Ulysses G.]

I think that you are right!

[jackr]

Oh dear...what a tradgedy...you would think on a pushbike you would be safe enough..but not here obviously.

An awful lot of Thai drivers have no common sense. They pass a bicycle only inches away, and if one happens to swerve to avoid a pothole or some glass or whatever...

Bye, bye.

I figure that the bike rider should take care not to be in a dangerous position near a car.

Unfortunately not entirely possible on any road if a driver decides to take up the hard shoulder and unless you have eyes in your ass you're in God's hands. Cycled up that road many times and had a few near misses myself. Avoiding the big roads and rush hour times while cycling in CM is a good idea with these muppet drivers.

[LoveDaBlues]

Oh dear...what a tradgedy...you would think on a pushbike you would be safe enough..but not here obviously.

My condolances to his family

did anyone on the forum know him personally?

I would never ride 2 wheels of any kind here except in a small village with almost no traffic. Too many crappy drivers here I have an over 4,000 pound beast with 4 wheels for the safety factor.

[Puwa]

I would never ride 2 wheels of any kind here except in a small village with almost no traffic. Too many crappy drivers here I have an over 4,000 pound beast with 4 wheels for the safety factor.

You're right that 4 wheels are intrinsically safer, but not necessarily right about the beast. check out Big and Bad.

[Ajarn]

Oh dear...what a tradgedy...you would think on a pushbike you would be safe enough..but not here obviously.

An awful lot of Thai drivers have no common sense. They pass a bicycle only inches away, and if one happens to swerve to avoid a pothole or some glass or whatever...

Bye, bye.

I figure that the bike rider should take care not to be in a dangerous position near a car.

Unfortunately not entirely possible on any road if a driver decides to take up the hard shoulder and unless you have eyes in your ass you're in God's hands. Cycled up that road many times and had a few near misses myself. Avoiding the big roads and rush hour times while cycling in CM is a good idea with these muppet drivers.

Seems like bike riders should be looking out for you.. I've driven the same road for more than 20 years, and I can't say I have ever come close to hitting a biker....

Edited September 11, 2006 by Ajarn

[MyPenRye]

I rode a bike for one month in CM and never felt close to being in danger, but then I do look over my shoulder when I am about to change direction, even the slightiest change. Of course, crossing the old-city ring road is a bit of an adventure. I agree that taking smaller roads is prudent. The super HWY road on a bike is pushing one's luck, I think. You can actually ride a bike on it? I also think that biking at night requires a light (especially if you are going to use smaller streets that are not well-lit). I did not though, but I will when I go back.

[Maejo Man]

You're right that 4 wheels are intrinsically safer, but not necessarily right about the beast. check out Big and Bad.

Interesting link Puwa, glad I have an Accord

[lannarebirth]

In the 4 short years I've been in Chiang Mai, I've witnessed about 30 collisions with motorbikes/bicycles (probably 25% of which were fatal. I've happened upon the scene of countless other accidents that I didn't eyewitness. Lots of bodies covered in sheets.

I understand the need for fuel economy and global citizenship of sparing precious resources, but if you're going to move around in Thailand, you'd better wrap some steel around you.

[BigFish]

we cycle in and around the old city all the time, it is fun and (more or less) safe

I don't think cycling out onto the major roads is a good idea, they stink as well as being fairly unsafe for cyclists

[The Dan Sai Kid]

You're right that 4 wheels are intrinsically safer, but not necessarily right about the beast. check out Big and Bad.

Interesting link Puwa, glad I have an Accord

Only in America would a Subaru Legacy be a compact

[el jefe]

I ride 1,500 - 2,000 km a month, 6 months a year here in CM and the rest of the time in various other places around the world. While Thailand may not be the safest place to ride a bike, it's far from the worst. I feel safer here than I do in the US or most of western Europe. Thai's may be sloppy drivers but there's very little agressiveness like there is in the west. For an experienced cyclist who learns Thai driving habits, cycling here is a pleasure. Inexperienced cyclists will undoubtably have a different experience.

I've found that the most dangerous drivers in Thailand are farang in an SUV.

[likite]

I've found that the most dangerous drivers in Thailand are farang in an SUV.

That is interesting can you say how you come to that opinion?

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I ride 1,500 - 2,000 km a month, 6 months a year here in CM and the rest of the time in various other places around the world. While Thailand may not be the safest place to ride a bike, it's far from the worst. I feel safer here than I do in the US or most of western Europe. Thai's may be sloppy drivers but there's very little agressiveness like there is in the west. For an experienced cyclist who learns Thai driving habits, cycling here is a pleasure. Inexperienced cyclists will undoubtably have a different experience.

I've found that the most dangerous drivers in Thailand are farang in an SUV.

Well I think it depends on where in Europe or the US your comparing it to. Certainly some places like NYC or LA might be worse but a whole lot of places in the US are in a much higher league when it comes to safety. Where I am from in Colorado there are so many bike paths and separate lanes its night and day compared to Chiang Mai.

The problem with Thai drivers is they might be willing to pass you with only 6 inches of space. That is a recipe for disaster. As for your comment about Falangs being worse drivers. Thanks for making me laugh. I guess some of them are bad but they are such a minority so the probability of being killed by one is pretty remote.

You ride up to 2000 km's a month? Where do you go? Want to go riding?

[davidgtr]

Now here's an interesting bit of new research just out in the UK..

Im not really sure how appropriate it is to Chiang Mai, but

"Helmeted Cyclists are more likely to be hit."

According to a Pommy traffic psychologist "drivers pass twice as close when overtaking cyclists wearing helmets than when overtaking their bare-headed counterparts. . .... while helmets had been proven to protect kids in low speed falls, it was questionable whether they offered any real protection to somebody struck by a car.

But either way, the study suggested that wearing a helmet might make a collision more likely in the first place."

And "laugh"; to test another theory, Dr Walker donned a long wig to test whether there was any difference in passing distances when drivers thought they were overtaking a female cyclist. He said drivers gave "her" an average of 14cm more space than for a man not wearing a helmet, probably because women riders were seen as more unpredictable.

The same guy also wisely says that cycling is good for you - your life expectancy goes down much more if you don’t cycle than if you do! So there you have it. Keep pedaling Ulysses G, you'll most likely live longer.

The original article I saw was in the SMH or the The Age. But the guy's website is at

Dr Ian Walker

[el jefe]

I've found that the most dangerous drivers in Thailand are farang in an SUV.

That is interesting can you say how you come to that opinion?

As I said, it's just my experience from cycling 20,000+ km in and around CM. The vast majority of Thai drivers are on scooters going 30-40km/hr. I can easily keep up with the flow of traffic in town. Sure they drive "sloppy" -- pulling out of side streets on to main roads without looking and driving on the wrong side of the road -- but it's easy to anticipate those moves.

I've found two problems with farang drivers:

1. Most are in a hurry and drive too aggressively

2. having not lived in Thailand for long, many don't know where they're going and spend too much time looking at stores, signs, whatever, instead of looking at other vehicles on the road.

I've done plenty of cycling in Laos too, where there are no farang drivers. I think it's safer than Thailand.

Just my opinion.

[el jefe]

I ride 1,500 - 2,000 km a month, 6 months a year here in CM and the rest of the time in various other places around the world. While Thailand may not be the safest place to ride a bike, it's far from the worst. I feel safer here than I do in the US or most of western Europe. Thai's may be sloppy drivers but there's very little aggressiveness like there is in the west. For an experienced cyclist who learns Thai driving habits, cycling here is a pleasure. Inexperienced cyclists will undoubtably have a different experience.

I've found that the most dangerous drivers in Thailand are farang in an SUV.

Well I think it depends on where in Europe or the US your comparing it to. Certainly some places like NYC or LA might be worse but a whole lot of places in the US are in a much higher league when it comes to safety. Where I am from in Colorado there are so many bike paths and separate lanes its night and day compared to Chiang Mai.

The problem with Thai drivers is they might be willing to pass you with only 6 inches of space. That is a recipe for disaster. As for your comment about Falangs being worse drivers. Thanks for making me laugh. I guess some of them are bad but they are such a minority so the probability of being killed by one is pretty remote.

You ride up to 2000 km's a month? Where do you go? Want to go riding?

CSN, You're absolutely right. The majority of my cycling in the US is in the suburbs of NYC. It's totally different when I get out into the country (I'll stay off the bike paths though, thank you. In the US northeast -- anywhere within 200 miles of NYC -- bike paths and lanes become multi-use facilities with too many joggers, dog walkers and roller bladers. Studies have been done showing that cyclists are more likely to have an accident on a bike path than on the road. Sorry, I don't have the website for the study. You can google it.) As for my cycling in western Europe, I found Scandinavian drivers respectful of other road users. I've been told that French and Italian drivers treat bikes with the same respect that would give any other road user. That's the problem -- they don't respect anyone. I'd rather ride in Thailand.

So, where do I go? Northwest and southwest exclusively. I'll go out past Mae Wang (Route 1013) for some gentle rolling hills. Or I'll take the Pai cutoff road (nw from Mae Rim) for a flat ride. And once every 7-10 days I'll do the Samoeng loop. If you're up for any of those, sure, I'd like another training partner. I'm not in CM right now, but I'll be back next month.

[el jefe]

Now here's an interesting bit of new research just out in the UK..

Im not really sure how appropriate it is to Chiang Mai, but

"Helmeted Cyclists are more likely to be hit."

The original article I saw was in the SMH or the The Age. But the guy's website is at

Dr Ian Walker

David,

That study is making the rounds of all the cycling newsgroups, message boards and egroups. As an experienced motorcyclist, you know how controversial helmet laws are. I'm sure you'll agree that a skilled, experienced motorcyclist/cyclist is less likely to get into an accident than an inexperienced one. It's my contention that someone who rides 500 km/year is MORE likely to get into an accident than someone who rides 20,000km, with or without the helmet. Who's more likely to get into an accident in CM, the tourist who rents a Honda Wave for 2 days, or you? My theory is "Prevent the accident, rather than the injury afterwards."

For all of you, don't assume the unhelmeted rider is less experienced, but feel free to give us all plenty of room.

[Ajarn]

I've found that the most dangerous drivers in Thailand are farang in an SUV.

That is interesting can you say how you come to that opinion?

As I said, it's just my experience from cycling 20,000+ km in and around CM. The vast majority of Thai drivers are on scooters going 30-40km/hr. I can easily keep up with the flow of traffic in town. Sure they drive "sloppy" -- pulling out of side streets on to main roads without looking and driving on the wrong side of the road -- but it's easy to anticipate those moves.

I've found two problems with farang drivers:

1. Most are in a hurry and drive too aggressively

2. having not lived in Thailand for long, many don't know where they're going and spend too much time looking at stores, signs, whatever, instead of looking at other vehicles on the road.

I've done plenty of cycling in Laos too, where there are no farang drivers. I think it's safer than Thailand.

Just my opinion.

I think the worst drivers are farangs tourists on bikes. Statistics prove that it is true..

Edited September 15, 2006 by Ajarn

[Ulysses G.]

For an experienced cyclist who learns Thai driving habits, cycling here is a pleasure. Inexperienced cyclists will undoubtably have a different experience.

I worked as a bicycle messenger in San Francisco for many years when I was a youngster and rode a bicycle everywhere I went every day in when I lived in Hanoi (where the traffic is insane) a few years ago, but as someone else said, Thais will often pass you with only a few inches to spare and, no matter how "experienced" you are, the odds are against you!

Edited September 15, 2006 by Ulysses G.

[tigerbeer]

I ride 1,500 - 2,000 km a month, 6 months a year here in CM and the rest of the time in various other places around the world. While Thailand may not be the safest place to ride a bike, it's far from the worst. I feel safer here than I do in the US or most of western Europe. Thai's may be sloppy drivers but there's very little aggressiveness like there is in the west. For an experienced cyclist who learns Thai driving habits, cycling here is a pleasure. Inexperienced cyclists will undoubtably have a different experience.

I've found that the most dangerous drivers in Thailand are farang in an SUV.

Well I think it depends on where in Europe or the US your comparing it to. Certainly some places like NYC or LA might be worse but a whole lot of places in the US are in a much higher league when it comes to safety. Where I am from in Colorado there are so many bike paths and separate lanes its night and day compared to Chiang Mai.

The problem with Thai drivers is they might be willing to pass you with only 6 inches of space. That is a recipe for disaster. As for your comment about Falangs being worse drivers. Thanks for making me laugh. I guess some of them are bad but they are such a minority so the probability of being killed by one is pretty remote.

You ride up to 2000 km's a month? Where do you go? Want to go riding?

CSN, You're absolutely right. The majority of my cycling in the US is in the suburbs of NYC. It's totally different when I get out into the country (I'll stay off the bike paths though, thank you. In the US northeast -- anywhere within 200 miles of NYC -- bike paths and lanes become multi-use facilities with too many joggers, dog walkers and roller bladers. Studies have been done showing that cyclists are more likely to have an accident on a bike path than on the road. Sorry, I don't have the website for the study. You can google it.) As for my cycling in western Europe, I found Scandinavian drivers respectful of other road users. I've been told that French and Italian drivers treat bikes with the same respect that would give any other road user. That's the problem -- they don't respect anyone. I'd rather ride in Thailand.

So, where do I go? Northwest and southwest exclusively. I'll go out past Mae Wang (Route 1013) for some gentle rolling hills. Or I'll take the Pai cutoff road (nw from Mae Rim) for a flat ride. And once every 7-10 days I'll do the Samoeng loop. If you're up for any of those, sure, I'd like another training partner. I'm not in CM right now, but I'll be back next month.

el-jefe, while we're at the topic, i absolutely agree with you. an experienced cyclist has a lower chance of being hit compared to otherwise. if someone's gonna pass by you a few inches away, you would have anticipated it and moved away as far as you could. alertness of your surroundings does the trick. i used to cycle everyday for many years, several hours a day. that must have been 15 years ago. id like to get back to cycling but dont know where to start. whats a good place to go cycle at??? for a couple hours or so. somewhere safe?

[changchang]

Take a look here : http://www.gmorning.info/Features_chaos2wheel.htm

[likite]

Take a look here : http://www.gmorning.info/Features_chaos2wheel.htm

Just about says it all, but the story only covers motorbikes, although if you change motor bike for motor car you'd not be far away. Same driving different vehicle.

The government here could make more efforts and even coin a few baht if they seriously wanted to change things. Proper driving lessons and tests would be a start.

[nokia]

Folks, i think for 2 wheelers, a bicycle is far safer than a motorbike. Why? How often do you see a mangled bicycle on the road?

I rode on a bicycle in CM city for two months before upgrading to a pickup recently. Verdict: As a bicycle's acceleration is far slower than a motorbike, alot of time is spent waiting at intersections around the moat. Most motorbikes will zoom across intersections, change lanes recklessly, or cut in front of vehicles, and if they not fast enough, collisions may occur. Just my 5 satang's worth of opinion.

[jackr]

Folks, i think for 2 wheelers, a bicycle is far safer than a motorbike. Why? How often do you see a mangled bicycle on the road?

Not very often, but there are thousands of motorbikes on the roads compared with minimal bicycles which affects the odds slightly.

[Gonzo the Face]

Now here's an interesting bit of new research just out in the UK..

Im not really sure how appropriate it is to Chiang Mai, but

"Helmeted Cyclists are more likely to be hit."

According to a Pommy traffic psychologist "drivers pass twice as close when overtaking cyclists wearing helmets than when overtaking their bare-headed counterparts. . ....

Maybe, just maybe the drivers have spotted them as Mormons on a Mission.....

[SamSipEt]

Now here's an interesting bit of new research just out in the UK..

Im not really sure how appropriate it is to Chiang Mai, but

"Helmeted Cyclists are more likely to be hit."

According to a Pommy traffic psychologist "drivers pass twice as close when overtaking cyclists wearing helmets than when overtaking their bare-headed counterparts. . ....

Maybe, just maybe the drivers have spotted them as Mormons on a Mission.....

Perhaps something to do with signs and trees?