Eucalyptus Trees

[sezzo]

Have been contacted by someone who has been asked by the family to invest in eucalyptus trees. He asked me if I could find out returns per rai after the initial 5 year growing period. Also wants to know what spacing required and how many trees per rai can be planted.

Thanks for any help or advice

[bdenner]

Have been contacted by someone who has been asked by the family to invest in eucalyptus trees. He asked me if I could find out returns per rai after the initial 5 year growing period. Also wants to know what spacing required and how many trees per rai can be planted.

Thanks for any help or advice

Too many variables to give an accurate answer here. The selling price has gone from 780 Baht per tonne to 1050 Baht over the past 12 months in our district!!! TW planted 375 trees per Rai at about 2.2 meter intervals, wide enough to get their "rotovator" with trailer through. That seems to be the norm, I think it is too close but <deleted> do I know!. They intend to carry out their 1st cut after 3 years

[phibunmike]

Have been contacted by someone who has been asked by the family to invest in eucalyptus trees. He asked me if I could find out returns per rai after the initial 5 year growing period. Also wants to know what spacing required and how many trees per rai can be planted.

Thanks for any help or advice

Too many variables to give an accurate answer here. The selling price has gone from 780 Baht per tonne to 1050 Baht over the past 12 months in our district!!! TW planted 375 trees per Rai at about 2.2 meter intervals, wide enough to get their "rotovator" with trailer through. That seems to be the norm, I think it is too close but <deleted> do I know!. They intend to carry out their 1st cut after 3 years

I've heard they take a lot of water and are bad for the local ecology - is that true ?

[bdenner]

I've heard they take a lot of water

Quite the reverse, that's why they survive so well in Australia. If planted at the start of the wet season they will not require futher watering.

bad for the local ecology

Unfortunately yes, they sap ALL the neutriants out of the soil and make it pretty useless for many years.

[phibunmike]

I've heard they take a lot of water

Quite the reverse, that's why they survive so well in Australia. If planted at the start of the wet season they will not require futher watering.

bad for the local ecology

Unfortunately yes, they sap ALL the neutriants out of the soil and make it pretty useless for many years.

Ah, got my facts wrong, thanks for the clarification

[JungleBiker]

I've heard they take a lot of water

Quite the reverse, that's why they survive so well in Australia. If planted at the start of the wet season they will not require futher watering.

bad for the local ecology

Unfortunately yes, they sap ALL the neutriants out of the soil and make it pretty useless for many years.

This "eucalyptus is bad for the environment" stuff is just BS repeated by people with no knowledge of agriculture.

(1) ALL crops sap nutrients from the soil, rice included. Eucalyptus just does it better than many crops - that's why it grows so fast! That means it's a GOOD crop!

(2) The problem is not the Eucalyptus, but the farmer! If the farmer harvests a mountain of eucayptus wood from his land then - because the wood contains a lot of nutrients that the trees have sucked out of the soil - the farmer should put back those nutrients to maintain the original soil fertility. If the farmer expects to keep harvesting wood from his plantation WITHOUT putting any nutrients back on his land (in the form of fertilizers - chemical, organic or whatever) then he (not the crop) is going to ruin the fertility of his soil. He is a BAD farmer! Many farmers in this part of the world are bad farmers - they think they are clever by not spending money on fertilizer, then when yields start to decline or nothing will grow in the soil they and the NGO-types blame the crop! (NGOs pick on eucalyptus because it is an industrial crop grown for big paper companies and NGOs hate big companies ("Big companies exploit poor farmers", blah blah blah).

Therefore, if you want to grow eucalyptus sustainably and not deplete your soil of nutrients, you need to find out the quantities of nutrients removed from the soil by each ton of wood that you remove, then multiply by the total number of tons of wood sold and then replace those nutrients as cheaply as possible. However, you'd be better off applying the fertilizer at regular intervals during the growing stage of the trees (e.g. several times during the rainy season), not applying one big lot after you harvest the trees.

[The Snark]

Yes, Eucalyptus, as a general rule is extremely bad for the soil and environment around it. That is, you will only be able to grow other Euc's and similar plants that are toerant of the poisons the Euc introduces into it's immediate area. The leaching from the leaves of Eucalyptol is very toxic to many plants.

Euc's are also extremely flammable. The oil in them, especially the leaves, burns like fury.

From the LA County Arbouretum Administration, which has about 300 varieties of Euc's, "Unless you want to severely alter the immediate environment around your trees, don't grow them. If you do grow them, do not plant them in areas where they can contribute to fires. Things to especially avoid are accumulations of piles of dead leaves, leaves on the ground that can act as a fuse to spread fires, and accumulations of dead leaves on any structure."

You must also avoid letting leaves or sap fall on painted surfaces such as your car, as Eucalyptol has a similar effect to pine sap.

[bdenner]

Euc's are also extremely flammable. The oil in them, especially the leaves, burns like fury.

Here inlies another question: Why don't the Thais exploit the Eucalyptus oils from the leaves? There must be money to be made from it but from my experience the leaves and smaller branches are left to rot or burnt after a harvest.

If the farmer expects to keep harvesting wood from his plantation WITHOUT putting any nutrients back on his land (in the form of fertilizers - chemical, organic or whatever) then he (not the crop) is going to ruin the fertility of his soil.

True but is all a matter of ecconomics for these people. Not only is it expensive the revitalise the soil they have to bring in a heavy digger to remove the stumps after the 3rd harvest. Around here most find it better to lay a 1/2 meter of 'Din' over the top and start again after a few years of rest. Edited September 23, 2006 by bdenner

[RamdomChances]

Sezzo, I've moved this to the farming forum as it's not really area specific you might get more replies. If you want it moved back just let me know.

Also you could look here

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=66768 also about Euca

[Maizefarmer]

I think what would be helpful is if someone (if anyone does know - and I certainly don't) could comment on the "inputs versus outputs"

No eucalyptus doe not require loads of water - it has a very efficient root system (just bare that in mind - wil lcome back to it in a moment), but its growth rate and yield will benefit from irrigation (an added input).

And yes - they doe strip the soil - called "soil mining" - they take everything out of the soil, and again, their growth rate and yield will benfit from fertiuliser application (another input).

Come harvest time, you need to calculate what you are going to get versus how much you have spent. Thats the first part of the equation. In Thailand, I havent got a clue how you would work that out because I dont know what fertilsier you would use and how much you would have to apply, or how often. But work it out you must - because the 2nd part of the equation involves of the cost of getting that land back into a condition that it can be used for another wood harvest 5 years down the line, or indeed for some other crop.

And just how much it wil cost you to get back into good condition is going to be influenced by 2 things:

a) how much fertiulser you applied while growing the crop

hom much you now have to put back in

.................. and one other thing - if you intend to use the land for someother crop - you now have to get the stumps out the ground - which is labour and fuel.

I think you need to take that Baht 1050 per ton and offset it aginst all your costs over 5 years before you can work out just how much you are going to land up with. And lastly, like all crops, the scale has a significant effect on the earnings i.e. - make sure the figures you use to estimate your costs are figures based on at least roughly the same area of land that you intend to grow on (both in terms of location and qauntity) - because the costs will vary according to location and size of the plantation - no good using cost figures for a 10 or 20 rai plot that were derived from a 1000 rai plantation - that would mess up your figures right from the start.

Good luck - and if you do get a chance to get it all worked out figure wise, please do share your findings.

And lastly - the debate regards just how bad they are for the soil: - they have a long term very difficult to reverse effect on soil. They WILL reduce crop yields of anything planted after them - unless you rectify the soil mining effect that THEY do have on soil. And That I am afraid is where I think the economics of the whole venture start to come apart - i.e. the cost of getting the soil back to a usable condition after the tree has been harvested.

Tim

And do you want to wait 5 years?

Edited September 23, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[Huckenfell]

I think what would be helpful is if someone (if anyone does know - and I certainly don't) could comment on the "inputs versus outputs"

No eucalyptus doe not require loads of water - it has a very efficient root system (just bare that in mind - wil lcome back to it in a moment), but its growth rate and yield will benefit from irrigation (an added input).

And yes - they doe strip the soil - called "soil mining" - they take everything out of the soil, and again, their growth rate and yield will benfit from fertiuliser application (another input).

Come harvest time, you need to calculate what you are going to get versus how much you have spent. Thats the first part of the equation. In Thailand, I havent got a clue how you would work that out because I dont know what fertilsier you would use and how much you would have to apply, or how often. But work it out you must - because the 2nd part of the equation involves of the cost of getting that land back into a condition that it can be used for another wood harvest 5 years down the line, or indeed for some other crop.

And just how much it wil cost you to get back into good condition is going to be influenced by 2 things:

a) how much fertiulser you applied while growing the crop

hom much you now have to put back in

.................. and one other thing - if you intend to use the land for someother crop - you now have to get the stumps out the ground - which is labour and fuel.

I think you need to take that Baht 1050 per ton and offset it aginst all your costs over 5 years before you can work out just how much you are going to land up with. And lastly, like all crops, the scale has a significant effect on the earnings i.e. - make sure the figures you use to estimate your costs are figures based on at least roughly the same area of land that you intend to grow on (both in terms of location and qauntity) - because the costs will vary according to location and size of the plantation - no good using cost figures for a 10 or 20 rai plot that were derived from a 1000 rai plantation - that would mess up your figures right from the start.

Good luck - and if you do get a chance to get it all worked out figure wise, please do share your findings.

And lastly - the debate regards just how bad they are for the soil: - they have a long term very difficult to reverse effect on soil. They WILL reduce crop yields of anything planted after them - unless you rectify the soil mining effect that THEY do have on soil. And That I am afraid is where I think the economics of the whole venture start to come apart - i.e. the cost of getting the soil back to a usable condition after the tree has been harvested.

Tim

And do you want to wait 5 years?

I have got many Eucalyptus trees on my 40 acres, except for providing food for Koalas ( Steve Erwins Australia Zoo Hospital releases Koalas here when they are well again) i did'ny even know that there is a viable business prospect for them, they grow like weeds here . I think anybody considering being sucked into yet another 'scam' should do a bit of research. If you have got wet areas , try Melaluca Alternafolia (Tea trees for oil).

[RamdomChances]

Generaly where I've seen it being grown it's by absantie landlords, they buy a piece of land and just plant some euca on it, easy to grow, no looking after. They will look to get one or two crops out of it, say about 10 years then sell the land, or even get the first then sell during the second as a "viable" euca plantation, which of course it is'nt as whatever you would get for the second crop you would end up spending at least that to get the land back into usable condition.

They will have gotten 1 or 2 crops out of it, plus the speculation that land will increace in value, a nice little earner over say about 7-10 years.

If you plant them close, thin them out at 3 years, i.e cut everyother one and then let the rest have another two.

Personaly I would'nt bother with it as with it little care they are much better crops to grow for a sustanible income. I also would'nt even entertain the idea of buying land that it's been grown on, the vast majority of people growing it don't put anything back in, I'm not even sure that it is an economicly viable crop if you fertilise it properly

[teletiger]

Call to plant more eucalyptus forests

APINYA WIPATAYOTIN

Renewable energy experts yesterday called on the government to expand eucalyptus plantations for production of ''bio-oil,'' which can be used as a substitute for costly fossil fuels. Nikhom Laemsak, director of Kasetsart University's forestry research centre, said the university had been working with a Canadian firm on setting up a eucalyptus oil production plant after an initial study found that Thailand had the potential to become a bio-oil producer.

''The plant is likely to be built in Roi Et province, which has a wide range of eucalyptus plantations,'' Mr Nikhom told a seminar on alternative energy.

However, he said, the country would need more eucalyptus supplies if it was interested in producing bio-oil, as a lot of eucalyptus would be consumed in the production process.

Scientist will use the ''fast pyrolysis'' method to produce eucalyptus bio-oil.

Fast pyrolysis is a process in which organic materials are rapidly heated to 450-600C in the absence of air.

The outcome of the process is bio-oil (70%), char (18%) and bio-gas (12%).

''The plant would require at least 100 tonnes of eucalyptus a day to generate 75,000 litres of bio-oil, which can be used as a substitute for crude oil in electricity generation and vehicle gasoline,'' he said.

Thailand had failed to expand eucalyptus plantation areas due to strong opposition from environmentalists and local people, who claimed that the tree contains toxic substances that reduce soil quality and consume large amounts of water, causing dryness in the area.

Currently, most eucalyptus plantations are located in the northeastern provinces of Roi Et, Khon Kaen, Maha Sarakham, Nakhon Ratchasima and Chaiyaphum, and the eastern provinces of Chachoengsao and Prachin Buri.

Mr Nikhom said the idea of producing bio-oil from eucalyptus trees was in line with the government's policy of increasing the use of renewable energy supplies to 4% of the total energy supply.

Renewable energy use currently amounts to only 1.35% of the energy supply, so a bigger push would be needed.

Gen Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, chairman of the Poverty Eradication Centre, who gave an opening speech at the seminar, backed the eucalyptus and bio-oil initiative.

He said commercial forest plantations would not only become a new source of fuel, but also a source of income for poor people, who could work in the plantations and sell trees to the bio-oil plant

Today's Bangkok Post.

Regards

[RamdomChances]

The outcome of the process is bio-oil (70%), char (18%) and bio-gas (12%).

''The plant would require at least 100 tonnes of eucalyptus a day to generate 75,000 litres of bio-oil

Surley thats about 75 %, that seems like a remarcable return, I wonder what the production costs are and wether the 12% Bio-gas can be used in the process.

[emwobberlydee]

As already mentioned above the stumps have to be removed after the trees have been harvested. Having just done this I can say that it cost us about Baht 66,000 to clear 15 rai. Note that we have our own tractor, using a company to do the work would have cost Baht 20,000 per rai. Many locals now want us to clear their land but they are trying to screw us down on the price, it's certainly worth considering outside of the ploughing season. The price of land with Eucalyptus stumps around us has now gone up in price - uncanny!

We bought the land a year after the trees had been harvested so I do not have any first hand knowledge of the value of the trees.

As for how good the land is going to be for growing anything else, watch this space and I'll keep you updated over the coming years, I'll give you all a first hand account!

[JungleBiker]

The outcome of the process is bio-oil (70%), char (18%) and bio-gas (12%).

''The plant would require at least 100 tonnes of eucalyptus a day to generate 75,000 litres of bio-oil

Surley thats about 75 %, that seems like a remarcable return, I wonder what the production costs are and wether the 12% Bio-gas can be used in the process.

I checked the web for info on this process and yes the gas is used to provide about 75% of the energy required to convert the wood into bio-oil, char and gas. There are already commercial businesses operating and it does look very attractive. The problem is the NGOs are anti-eucalyptus so it's not easy to get a bg enough plantation established in many places. If you assume 100 tons of wood per day x 365 days per year and that it takes one hetare to produce 100 tons every 5 years then you would need 1,825 hectares (hope my maths is correct) or 11,400 rai.

[C-sip-degree]

I think what would be helpful is if someone (if anyone does know - and I certainly don't) could comment on the "inputs versus outputs"

Come harvest time, you need to calculate what you are going to get versus how much you have spent. Thats the first part of the equation.

a) how much fertiulser you applied while growing the crop

hom much you now have to put back in

As this thread continues I'll pick up where maizefarmer left.

@ 5 rai of trees 4mtr spacing etc.

Are eucalyptus trees are cut and harvested every three years, by local Guys that stop and give you a quote, (if agreed) they will pay first, then remove under their terms like next week next day and so on they seem to be around doing it all the time.

They will cut main branches as close to the stump and if there's smaller branches they will leave, but at any rate the stump is regenerating which later down the line will need a quick trim up.

Eucalyptus trees are under 15 years old. (came with land sale)

History Last cut was $16,000bht cash before cutting on May 2005.

Then $14,000bht May 2002.

Then $ 5,000bht Jan 1999. This is when we bought the land and didn't know anything about the trees planted and $5000 bht sounded like a good deal plus the land backs onto 10 rai of rice land which I was focuses on. Live and learn deal......

Fertiulser once a year from the cow's collection pit, one days work too spread this around.

One or two days work trimming with two workers once a years.

Total cost for us is labour for two worker etc per year, and around 100bht for fuel.

Hope this helps, I would never dream of clearing off and using for anything else.

The cost of this outways everything plus all other information about the ground is relevent, last thing of cause is where would I get my char-coal for me BBQ from.

Cheers

C-sip

[catwho]

Hi boys

what i have seen,you dont dig the stumps up after cutting cause the stump reshoots 3/4 off spring,depending on the age of the tree,like was said before after cutting fertilize the soil,you get more the second time around etc,maybe thin them out for the extra folage.

cat

[Crushdepth]

And lastly - the debate regards just how bad they are for the soil: - they have a long term very difficult to reverse effect on soil. They WILL reduce crop yields of anything planted after them - unless you rectify the soil mining effect that THEY do have on soil. And That I am afraid is where I think the economics of the whole venture start to come apart - i.e. the cost of getting the soil back to a usable condition after the tree has been harvested.

One thing to bear in mind is that eucalyptus is typically grown on poor quality soils unsuitable for other forms of agriculture (ie. not on prime agricultural land).

[chownah]

can eucalyptus leaves be composted?