Visitor Visa

[nick020773]

hi all,

i am looking for some advice ?

my thai girlfriend of 10 months now applied for a visitor visa which was handed in on monday of this week and this morning on looking on the website and tracking the application now says passport ready for collection ?

now she received no phone call with any questions and only submitted the application monday afternoon so it has been returned in under 48 hours ? i am thinking now that it has been turned down ?

i supplied above and beyond the information asked for all neatle done in an a4 hard back file and all neatly labelled and set out at the beggining of what was in each section !!

we have known each other over 10 months and have holodayed together in thailand twice in that time.

unfortunately she wasnt working so im thinking about the reason to return but i did mention in my brief history letter to the embassy that i wanted her to visit for 2 months to meet my family and to experience english life before we returned to thailand in january to marry and because of this reason we would return as we did not want to jeopordise any further applications ie settlement visa after we were married in thailand in jan 07 .

i also included a letter from my sister and brother in law showing that they had already purchased tickets to come to thailand in jan 07 to be at the marriage ?

so i am very worried at the moment about her visa thinking it has been turned down and i dont think i will sleep at all tonight waiting for my girlfriend to call from the vaf office when she goes tomorrow to pick up her passport and find out if she has it or not ?

would the embassy fail a visitor visa on paperwork alone ???

well your ideas would be gratefull

thanks

[atlastaname]

Yes they can refuse on paperwork alone , in fact that is the idea, that all applications will , where possible, be decided on the paperwork submitted .

However in your case you state you supplied all that was asked for and more , and from the little detail you have posted you have addressed the reason to return bit very well.

Its quite possible therefore that she has got it !!

[saranagon]

I wouldn,t worry too much ,by the sound of what you have given to the VFS

Your GF Has got her visa,Tell her to get there first thing in the morning ,although they say you can only pick passports up between 3.00 and 4.30 ,we took a chance and picked ours up at 8.30 in the morning

Good Luck

[the scouser]

Unless some of the mandatory documents were missing from your supporting bundle, I think you've got it.

Scouse.

[cuddleypete]

hi there

from what you say in your post, i belive your girlfriend has got her vv visa

all the best

[nick020773]

hi all ,

sorry ive been so long in replying but been busy with work and had my head up my backside ?

basically my girlfriend was refused her visit visa for reasons i dont understand fully ?

i have been previously married to a thai lady who had a settlement visa but we divorced in thailand very quickly after she had spent a short time in the uk.

on getting the thai divorce cert i had it translated and certified and sent a copy of each to the embassy with a covering letter which i now know they obviously never received ?

so basically they ranted on saying i was still married and i never mentioned anything in the application but to my knowledge i thought they knew the situation and so never mentioned it in the visit visa .

they commented in the refusal that i knew what documents to send ( can someone please tell me where it states in the visit visa application form sponsors details ??? )

they ranted on it got worse they went on to say i was facilitating women for other reasons than a relationship ?

anyway as i believe this to be completely slanderous surely they cant make accusations like this i thought this was ment to be british law and last time i checked someone cant just assume but now believe the embassy are a law unto themselves ?

i am now in a position i am not quite sure what to do and would appreciate any suggestions or comments.

but i know i will carry on regardless and fight em as i will have my girlfriend here even if i got do the rash marriage and settlement visa as this seems to be easier to get.

the reason i applied for a visit visa in the first place was so she could meet my family and experience english life and weather as i didnt want a repeat of my last marriage.

well i look forward to hearing any suggestions or comments

nick

[GU22]

i have been previously married to a thai lady who had a settlement visa but we divorced in thailand very quickly after she had spent a short time in the uk.

on getting the thai divorce cert i had it translated and certified and sent a copy of each to the embassy with a covering letter which i now know they obviously never received ?

so basically they ranted on saying i was still married and i never mentioned anything in the application but to my knowledge i thought they knew the situation and so never mentioned it in the visit visa .

Why didn't you submit this with your current girlfriends application? Surely you must have known it was relevant?

they commented in the refusal that i knew what documents to send ( can someone please tell me where it states in the visit visa application form sponsors details ??? )

See Guidance - Sponsors (INF 3) and social visit checklist. OK, neither actually say that sponsors need to provide evidence that they are free to marry, not all sponsors and applicants for visit visas are in that sort of relationship. But they do say that as well as the documents on the lists you should provide anything else that may be relevant. So, if you are basing the application on your relationship with the applicant and as you have previously sponsored a different woman for a spouse visa, then common sense tells you to show that the previous relationship is over.

The app;ication form refers applicants to this guidance, and also has a space for any additional information which may be relevant.

they ranted on it got worse they went on to say i was facilitating women for other reasons than a relationship ?

Well, if you serial sponsor women to the UK with no explanation this will, unfortunately, occur to the ECO. It does happen.

This strikes me as a completely bollixed application. You didn't tell them a very important fact, your previous sponsorship. You say that you wrote to the embassy before. This may or may not have been received by them, it may or may not have been kept on file. But it is up to you to at least refer to this in any subsequent application. The onus is on the applicant and the sponsor to provide the necessary evidence. You didn't do this. Result, refusal.

had my head up my backside

Quite. Extract it and start using it!

All you can do is apply again. Write a sponsors letter explaining the previous cocked up application, and this time enclose evidence that the previous marriage has ended, and if possible what has happened to your ex wife. Is she still in the UK?

[the scouser]

Nick,

In the circumstances, it is probably best if your girlfriend makes another application. However, she will have to fully address the reasons for the initial refusal. The visa officer has concluded that you are importing Thai women in to the UK for nefarious purposes, and this is going to be difficult to overcome.

Your argument will have to be that if you were up to no good, you wouldn't have forged a genuine 10-month-old relationship. You will have to back this up with as much evidence as you can muster, as any perceived lack will be jumped upon by the visa officer. If you are on good terms with your ex-wife, and she is in Thailand, get a certfied copy of her passport showing her to be in Thailand. Additionally, fully explain the circumstances in a covering letter; i.e. that you want a visit precisiely to avoid making the same mistake twice.

Scouse.

[atlastaname]

Nick,

as others else have already hinted , you really did make a mess of this application didn't you? Although the guidelines don't spell out exactly what is required for each visa (and i think sometimes thats a shame..it might make it clear to everyone and save a lot of dissapointment), it is common sense what it is obvious you must supply and you didn't do it .

Now you are in a tricky situation where you must start again , but your application is now on the very dodgy pile , and you will have to do more than the average refused applicant to overcome these prejudices they now ve against you . You must take on board everything you have been advised to do on this thread and also read other similar threads , really take apart the refusal letter point by point and address every bit of it .

On a positive note , you rarely hear of genuine relationships not succeeding eventually. Some on this forum have had 2 or even 3 refuslas but have all got there in the end .

Definately without trying to upset anyone, i would just comment on your remarks regarding their attitude. You use the word "ranting" and the fact that they were bordering on slandering you . Well accept this you must . To the unlucky (or badly prepared) people who have little or no previous experience of the Embassy and who get refused , the language , attitude and conduct of the interviewing staff always comes as a big shock. You have to accept that they can be rude in the extreme and can throw around accusations (like they did with you) that they believe to be true (or so we have to believe) , and there is nothing you can do about it but bite your lip and re-apply.

Yours is not going to be an easy case and you may have another bout of rudeness next time as well. You have to decide how important this girl is to you , and if she is important enough to fight for then , like i say , you will almost certainly succeed in the end .

In fact does anyone on this forum know of any cases where the applicants were in a genuine relationship and never got a visa and had to live together in Thailand ?

[GU22]

To the unlucky (or badly prepared) people who have little or no previous experience of the Embassy and who get refused , the language , attitude and conduct of the interviewing staff always comes as a big shock.

Not so in this case; the OP says the applicant wasn't interviewed, not even by telephone.

You have to accept that they can be rude in the extreme

No, you definitely do not. If any member of the embassy staff were to be "rude in the extreme" or merely rude, then their victim should definitely complain to the relevant section head; in the case of ECOs that would be the Entry Clearance Manager.

throw around accusations (like they did with you) that they believe to be true (or so we have to believe)

I wonder. The OP says

they went on to say i was facilitating women for other reasons than a relationship ?

It would be interesting to read what the refusal notice actually says. Does it make such an accusation? Or is it simply the standard wording, such as: "I do not believe, on the balance of probabilities, that the relationship is as described and that you are seeking entry to the UK for the purpose stated."?

Not looking for an argument, merely correcting a factual error and putting a different perspective on the rest.

[the scouser]

Obviously, we haven't had sight of the refusal notice, but "facilitation" is quite an immigration-specific word, and is unlikely to be used in this context by a layman. Additionally, I have seen a previous refusal where the belief that the sponsor was involved in such an activity was given as a reason for refusal. All-in-all, it perfectly feasible.

Scouse.

[nick020773]

hi all,

thanks for all the replies and advice .

i would just like to confirm that the exact wording of the facilitating comment was

i am not satisfied that he is not facilitating ladies into the united kingdom for other purposes andthat you are in a relationship as claimed.

any way i will be making another visa application shortly for a vv and have tried to address all issues raised as best as possible and see what happens but wont hold my breath.

failing this i will return to thailand in january as i stated i would and she would also to marry and then apply for a settlement visa .

maybe i sound a little defeatist about the possibility of the vv but i am sure given the new evidence after why they refused the same time they will just find something else to fail on .

we will have to see and i will keep you all posted

thanks again for all the good advice and comments

nick

[atlastaname]

I was commenting in general on visa applications when i made the comments about how the behaviour of the Embassy staff can come as a shock when first refused , to applicants with no previous dealing with them. Nick was clearly also shocked by what they can do and say (verbally or in written form). This is a reality he and all others soon get used to , and indeed he already has in that he is quite defeatist about his next application , before its even submitted !! And thats sad . It shouldn't be like that.

When i said you have to accept they can be rude in the extreme, i didn't mean that to read you have to put up with it , i meant it to read to have to accept they CAN do that and they do on occasions that suit them. As in this case.

As GU22 says if/when they are rude ALL cases should be reported to the ECM, although i would love to hear of anyone who has done that and what the answer was. I suspect i could type the answer here myself .. a defensive backing up of their staff. There would be no proof as they would be careful not to type anything overtly rude , it would all be verbal and insinuated at the interview.

I see no-one has commented on any knowledge of couples permanently refused a visa to live in the UK together , so maybe this backs up my belief that Nick , and all other genuine cases , do eventually , get the visas they seek. If this is so its a crumb of comfort i guess .

Keep us posted Nick

[GU22]

i would just like to confirm that the exact wording of the facilitating comment was

i am not satisfied that he is not facilitating ladies into the united kingdom for other purposes andthat you are in a relationship as claimed.

Thanks for clearing that up, Nick.

i will be making another visa application shortly for a vv and have tried to address all issues raised as best as possible and see what happens but wont hold my breath.

If you do deal adequately with the reasons for refusal then the second application should be successful. The main stumbling block seems to be your previous relationship, so follow carefully the advice given by Scouse earlier.

Even if you decide not to apply for another VV and go for a settlement visa you will still have to deal with this point.

Whilst this seems harsh to you, the ECOs can only go on the evidence they have. I remember when my wife and I were at the visa section once (when non applicants were allowed in). A very tearful young woman came out of the interview room having just been refused a visit visa. She had known her sponsor for nearly a year. She asked my wife if I could explain the refusal to her. The refusal notice said basically the same as your girlfriend's, with the explanation that her sponsor had applied for a fiance visa for a different woman 6 months ago and had not explained what had happened to her. This was the first that the poor woman had heard of another woman!

Some men do deceive naive young women into coming to the UK and then put them to 'work.' (I am aware, of course, that often it is the woman who does the deceiving.) It does happen, so the ECOs have the difficult job of sifting the 'bad' applications out. Sometimes they get this wrong. The more information you can provide to help them make their decision, the more likely it is that they will make the right one.

Best of luck.

[nick020773]

hi all,

i would like to point out that i did write to the ECM in BKK and got basically fobbed off.

a mr a howard replied saying that as i was only a third party he could not divulge any information to me ?? but as asked it was that the refusal and its comments had been aimed at me as the sponsor ( as i see it although i am not the applicant i am involved in the process )

anyway to further things i also complained to my local MP who has replied to me by letter this morning asking for further information about this matter and will follow it up with the home office.

i know a vv cant be appealed but i certainely am going to kick a fuss up about comments made which i believe to be my right.

i would also like to add i am not trying to be defietist about my next application but given the circumstances of the last refusal i am sure they will refuse some how which was pointed out and noted with my MP.

i will fight for this lady and will prove to the embassy that we are genuine and hopefully sooner or later my lady will have her visa in her passport but until that day i will just have to live in hope.

anyway keep up the good work and great advice if it wasnt for websites like this i would surely be lost .

nick

[GU22]

i would like to point out that i did write to the ECM in BKK and got basically fobbed off.

a mr a howard replied saying that as i was only a third party he could not divulge any information to me ?? but as asked it was that the refusal and its comments had been aimed at me as the sponsor ( as i see it although i am not the applicant i am involved in the process )

He is correct. From Diplomatic Service Procedures - Entry clearance Volume 1 - General instructions Chapter 6

6.1 - Need for confidentiality

ECOs should not reveal to unauthorised persons any information obtained in the course of their official duties. This is particularly important in asylum cases where, if asked, the ECO should normally say that it is not Government policy to comment on individual applications of any sort. If pressed, an asylum applicant should only be referred to as having applied for leave to remain in the UK.

Similarly the details given on an Entry Clearance Application Form by an applicant are treated in confidence, subject to the caveat on the IM2A which points to information being disclosable to Government Departments/agencies. Request for application details from lawyers, immigration consultants or other third parties should only be complied with when it is absolutely clear that the applicant has given authority to do so.

There are however circumstances when information can be released without the applicant’s permission. If you are asked to disclose information and you think that exceptionally this might be done you should refer to UKvisas for authority

(My emphasis)

and Chapter 28

26.8 - Release of case notes to solicitors, applicants, sponsors or other third parties

If/when you receive requests direct from applicants, who have been refused or from third parties, such as solicitors, who are clearly acting on behalf of the applicant, you should release a copy of the original interview notes. If you receive requests from a sponsor or a solicitor acting on behalf of a sponsor, you should only release case details if it is clear that the applicant has given his/her authority. This need not be written authority although in cases of doubt, it might be prudent to obtain it

(My emphasis)

and

26.9 - Representations by applicants or sponsors after refusal

If after a refusal you receive written representations from the applicant or sponsor, you should send a short but constructive response based on the refusal notice.

If new information is provided, you should advise that this should form the basis of a fresh application. A different ECO should consider such an application, where possible.

So you could write again, this time enclosing a letter from your girlfriend granting them the authority to release information to you.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how your MP will be able to help. It appears, from what you have posted, that the ECO has acted according to the immigration rules. You may find the wording on the refusal notice to be insulting, but based on the information before the ECO it is a reasonable assumption. IMHO, the reply yur MP gets from the Home Office will say the same. Good luck with this avenue, anyway.

IMHO, the only possible ground you have for any complaint is their loss of the letter you sent them containing your divorce certificate; but I'm not sure if they were obliged to do anything with that as it was not linked to any particular application at the time.

I still think your best, if not only, course of action is to reapply, this time dealing with the ex wife problem.

Edited October 19, 2006 by GU22

[the scouser]

Nick,

It's my opinion that as you are evidently concerned in the matter, there are no data protection concerns and the embassy should have released any information to you which you requested. Their own policy says written consent should only be sought from the applicant in cases of doubt.

Anyhow, hopefully, your MP will assist.

Scouse.

[GU22]

The DSPs do say that written authority only needs to be obtained in cases of doubt, but, with respect, there is doubt in this case. Is it not possible that the ECO in this case believes the applicant to be an unwitting dupe of the sponsor, as in the case I mentioned earlier? That their unwillingness to release information may be an attempt to protect her?

No disrespect, Nick. I am not accusing you of anything, but, to be frank, you made a major error in not mentioning the previous application and explaining the circumstances of your subsequent separation. Their suspicions have been aroused and you need to counter those suspicions.

As a matter of interest, can you say how long ago you sponsored the previous spouse application, when you were divorced and when you sent the divorce certificate to the embassy? The timescales are important here. The more time that elapsed between your divorce and this application, indeed the more time between your divorce and meeting your current girlfriend, the stronger your case.

[atlastaname]

Nick,

a trivial point but i think you will find that MR A Howard is actually MRS Aleyne Howard , ECM. It could be pure co-incidence of names and initials , but almost 2 years ago i had a not dissimilar problem to yours and had cause to talk to Aleyne Howard ECM over the phone . She is definately a woman , and a very arrogant one at that . Unhelpful in the extreme ... but i digress.

I also involved my MP and he was a great help , although not the crucial factor in my eventually getting my partner the visa we wanted. And ours was a settlement visa not a vv like yours.

I applaud your determination to make a fuss and although it will get you no-where , really, it will cause considerable work and expense for the civil servants who will have to get involved (contact UK Visas for sure won't you ?) and may make them wonder if changes could be made , if only to save them more work from future complainers.!!

BUT your ONLY way forward here is to address every bit of the refusal notice , read what everyone else here has written and advised you to do , and then re-apply . You will get there eventually

[Maizefarmer]

ATLASTANAME - you are correct A HOWARD is a female - and they do not like it when MP's challenge them, partly I think because it really is one of the few ways in which their desicion making can be challenged in an authorative way.

Tim

Edited October 20, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[atlastaname]

ATLASTANAME - you are correct A HOWARD is a female - and they do not like it when MP's challenge them, partly I think because it really is one of the few ways in which their desicion making can be challenged in an authorative way.

Tim

Tim,

thanks for your comments. I am banned from putting my opinions across on this forum , except for the odd sentence here and there , so i'll just have to say

"we are both on the same wavelength" here and leave it at that .

[Maizefarmer]

Two things that really stick out in the assessement process are financial staus and ties to Thailand i.e. if the applicant is poor and has little fixed committement to Thailand they are a non - return risk. Fine yes, that may well be the case in theory, but in reality I think many of the declined decisions in those instances are wrong.

In the case of the sponsor in which the sponsor and applicant claim a personal relationship, it's the ECO?ECM most often replies with wors that go along the lines of "I am not staified the relationship exists", and or " I am not satisfied that the applicant will not be involved in some other activity"

I know 5 cases over the last 2 years in which the above has happend - and in each of those cases it was wrong. It was also very upsetting for both applicant and sponsor - redcuing them both to tears in several cases - to have to deal with the fact that they know they have been wrongly assessed.

That said, give credit where credit is due - the idea that the ECO's and ECM are a cold hearted bunch is simply not true. They are human like us after all and do make mistakes - my problem with the process is that when declining applications, in reality if the application was an honest one with no ulterior motive, just what can the sponsor or the applicant then do?

Not much sadly - and my gut feeling is that for a fair percentage of those declined this often the case.

Tim

[the scouser]

I've had, professionally speaking, several encounters with Ms Howard, which I can't comment upon individually for reasons of client confidentiality. In each instance Ms Howard declined to reverse the initial decision, but in all but two cases the subsequent representations to UK Visas were successful. Of the two unsuccessful cases, one was allowed at appeal. I'd be interested to establish exactly what Ms Howard's role is as, to the best of my knowledge, the ECM is Gerry Grant.

The difficulty that an ECO faces is that he has to assess the applicant in abstraction, on the basis of bits of supporting documentation and, possibly, a quick 10-minute interview: s/he does not have the opportunity to develop a "feel" for them. Consequently, decisions are taken against the broad, general sweep of the immigration rules, which, with a given applicant, can result in what an involved person will perceive to be a harsh decision.

Although there is no right of appeal against non-family visit visa refusals, if the decision is either evidently unreasonable, or the visa officer has acted outwith his powers (ultra vires), the matter may be taken to judicial review in which instance a judge will determine the case. It is right that there is such a process to turn to as it acts as a counter to any official who is minded to abuse their position. However, the legal costs in making a claim are prohibitive, so, in order to recoup any costs, the claimant has to be pretty certain of a positive outcome.

Scouse.

[Maizefarmer]

G Grant runs the show - that is correct, and A Howard is under Grant.

If you get a note with words on it to the effect of "I have reviewed your case and find no compelling reason(s) to change the clearance officers desicion...." , or something along those lines .... its usually will have Howards name on the bottom.

Howard acts as a buffer betwen irrate declined applicants, their sponsors and the ECM (Grant) - and will only forward a case to him for "review" if there is a chance that the desicion can be changed. In reality Howard actually does the so-caled "review", and it is passed on to Grant as a matter of formality if it is changed, as its his signature that is required formally.

Should you wish to avoid this person, who as it has been observed seldom sees any reason to change any visa decision - note the said staff member takes leave around July/August each year.

The person who fills in the gap while in theory should do things no differently , has a more amicable nature - although I know sponsors who have received a "I am away untill the end of August" auto response to their email ........ which is equally frustrating.

Tim

[vinny]

According to the Diplomatic and Consular List:

Mrs. Alayne Anne Howard 05.12.2004

Second Secretary (Head of Visa Section)

Mr. Gerard Stuart Grant 07.01.2006

Second Secretary (Immigration)

[GU22]

Before getting too critical and personal, it is important to remember that who ever reviews a refusal at the embassy, they can only make a judgement based upon the evidence submitted with the initial application and, if there was one, at the interview. If that evidence was lacking, as it was in Nick's case, then they will not reverse the decision. I do know of several cases where a refusal has been overturned by the ECM, on one occasion before the applicant or sponsor had even contacted him/her!

If subsequent representations are made to UK Visas then I think new evidence can be introduced. Maybe, Scouse, you can confirm? Certainly new evidence can be introduced at an appeal to the AIT.

Two things that really stick out in the assessement process are financial staus and ties to Thailand i.e. if the applicant is poor and has little fixed committement to Thailand they are a non - return risk. Fine yes, that may well be the case in theory, but in reality I think many of the declined decisions in those instances are wrong.

Obviously, any decision made by a human being can be the wrong one.

In the case of the sponsor in which the sponsor and applicant claim a personal relationship, it's the ECO?ECM most often replies with wors that go along the lines of "I am not staified the relationship exists", and or " I am not satisfied that the applicant will not be involved in some other activity"

I know 5 cases over the last 2 years in which the above has happend - and in each of those cases it was wrong.

Maizefarmer, I personally know of 7 instances where a visit visa has been granted when the applicant has had no concrete reason to return. No property, no job etc. Through sites such as this I am acquainted with many more. Indeed, the wife and I are off for a drink with such a couple this evening.

In each case the applicant and sponsor have shown strong evidence of their relationship, a relationship going back at least 3 months. ECOs will, and usually do, grant visit visas in such cases. The thinking being that this is a genuine relationship, the reason for the visit is genuine and the couple would not want to jeopardise any future settlement application by overstaying or otherwise breaking the conditions of a visit visa.

A search through the archives of this forum will show many instances where this has happened.

However, if the couple have only known each other a couple of weeks and/or have not produced evidence of their ongoing relationship then the ECO is going to have doubts. Especially if the sponsor has previously sponsored a successful spouse visa for a different person and not explained the change in circumstances and partner.

That said, give credit where credit is due - the idea that the ECO's and ECM are a cold hearted bunch is simply not true. They are human like us after all and do make mistakes

Quite agree, although some on this forum would not. However, like atlastaname, I am banned from commenting any further on this point.

my problem with the process is that when declining applications, in reality if the application was an honest one with no ulterior motive, just what can the sponsor or the applicant then do?

Basically, the ECOs and the ECM are not mind readers. They can only make their judgements based on the evidence supplied by the applicant and sponsor. Don't assume that something is obvious to them just because it is obvious to you. If your application is refused and you cannot appeal, look at the reasons for refusal and counter them in the next application.

The world is a hard place. No one who is not a British citizen actually has a right to a UK visa (except, perversely, EU citizens and their families). It is unfortunate that the activities of criminals and chancers in the past have made it that much harder for genuine people to get a visa today.

[Maizefarmer]

GU22

To comment on the cases you highlighted as been cases in which there were no concrete reasons for the applicant to return but none-the-less they were issued a visa:

Although I was not aware of the time period been 3 months, the cases I refered to would not have been failed on that, as with the exception of one that was 19 months old, the others were all 6 - 9 month old "relationships" - at least.

The sponsors in all cases were in fulltime employment, and by all accounts satisified the requirements (e.g. ample means, ample space ect ect..)

They were in my opinion cases that were harshly and wrongly judged for whatever reason - not withstanding the fact that the ladies were all "bright lights enviroment" ladies (meaning: hookers who worked in bars), which in it's self I understand not to be a reason that disqualifies applicants.

The visa section knows full well that many of the female applicants described in applications as "waitresses" and "rice farmers", are if fact bar-girls. They do recognise that the applicants and sponsors colude and are often reluctant to admitt this, and it is one of the few application "errors" that will/can be "overlooked" in the assessement process, and not be thrown back or used against the applicant or the sponsor.

So lets take your point regards address when declined, or getting the decision changed - well, if its a financial reason and one which is related to the lack of ties/committement to Thailand - well, how do one address that problem within a reasonable timeframe?

Putting money in their account will serve no good, as just as easily money goes in it can be taken out.

Having a baby to try and demonstrate a link or reason to come back to Thailand is, besides been just plain downright stupid, equaly futile, and in a way could interperated as making the point that the applicant really is up to no good.

The point I was making was that there are, far more than I think should occur, genuine honest applicants who are declined, but such are the circumstances (as above for example) or the reasons given, that in all practicality there really is little they can do to get the decision reversed.

Those are the cases I am talking about, and with standing the considerations we have debated as to how, and what can/cannot be done about it, are ironicaly often applications which appear weak, for no other reason than they were presented honestly to start with (i.e. meaning the applicants are least likely to be persons who wopuld abuse a visa priviledge).

Its those instances which form a percentage of declined applications that I have a strong suspicion consititute more than they should - even taking into consideration human error in assessement - they are cases which are harshly assessed, and are they interestingly are cases which I suspect the ECO knows the applicant has little grounds on which to seek redress, because of there circumstances (i.e. such as those I used to illustrate the point earlier).

A catch 22 situation which must leave some applicants regreting theirhonesty, for while I am the first to say, the last thing you want to do is try and bXXXXXXt an ECO, I have little doubt that a couple of days spent going through all the postings on Thaivisa, some careful notes and a bit of intuition to recognise and cover the weak points, a dishonest sponsor & applicant could colude to bXXXXXXt their way through.

Tim

Edited October 20, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[GU22]

Although I was not aware of the time period been 3 months,

I am not aware if the ECOs look for a minimum time period for a relationship. I mentioned three months as this was the minimum time any of the couples I refer to had known each other.

lets take your point regards address when declined, or getting the decision changed - well, if its a financial reason and one which is related to the lack of ties/committement to Thailand - well, how do one address that problem within a reasonable timeframe?

You can't, but what you can do is wait a bit to strengthen the relationship side. If they are satisfied that the relationship is genuine, then they wont care about the rest; for the reason I outlined earlier. Which I think also deals with the other points you have raised.

Obviously some genuine applicants are going to be refused. Sometimes due to ECO error, more often due to a poorly prepared application.

That is my opinion, anyway. Based upon my own experience, those related to me personally and those I have read of on forums such as this.