Network Topology

[LivinLOS]

Want to check something before I go ahead and buy another router.

My home network is quite extensive but a hodge podge.

ADSL Modem DHCP to..

8 port router (call it main router) providing NAT and firewall service and DHCP to :-

Desktop

RAID Media server

Wireless AP (multiple laptops and some tablets used for media browsing and control)

HTPC / Media PC linked into the Home theater.

Now I have only one cable down to the equipment rack in the Home Theater and have just added an xbox360. I obviously need to link in the xbox to the home network and was thinking of adding a another router and plugging the HTPC and the Xbox into the client side and also adding the cable from the 8 port router to the client side also ??? Would this allow the xbox360 and the HTPC to still collect DHCP from the 'main router' ??

I dont want to have it configuered with the xbox360 and HTPC on the client side and upstream them to the main router as although they would both connect upstream to the net, I would no longer be able to see them as seperate boxes (IP's) from the desktop and other machines one level higher, I would be sort of blind to them that way and I use RDC and other command and control apps from the tablets to browse and play media on the HTPC connected to the theater sound system.

Other options include adding another NIC to the HTPC and using internet connection sharing but this looks less elegant to me (and requires PC always on or out of hybernate ??) or just buying the wireless NIC for the Xbox (but then I can see myself needing more ports at the entertainment side for a dreambox PVR and UBC cracker or maybe a PS3 later or ???) also dont know if the wireless is slower pings which can be a drawback gaming.

The way I am thinking is with my initial plan if they were just seperate normal PCs instead of the main router they would all discover and see each other, but I am concerened about picking up DHCP and my net seems to change its DNS servers too often to leave them manually set.

[cathyy]

ADSL Modem DHCP to..

8 port router (call it main router) providing NAT and firewall service and DHCP to :-

Desktop

RAID Media server

Wireless AP (multiple laptops and some tablets used for media browsing and control)

HTPC / Media PC linked into the Home theater.

I only see 4 of those 8 ports in use. Is there more not mentioned that is preventing you from hooking the xbox up to it? I assume this is a Windows network? If so, it may be time to sacrifice a few small furry animals, set up a genuine domain, and use Active Directory. The complexity level of your network makes it worth the bother. Using Active Directory is not as hard as sysadmins want you to think it is, anyway.

[monty]

Hi Livinlos,

I'm not quite sure if I grab the concept of your home network!

If I understand correctly you have a plain jane adsl modem with lan connection, providing the internet access to your router/firewall (connected to the WAN port on your router). Your router/firewall is getting it's ip address from the modem's dhcp server, while the router's dhcp server is handing out the ip addresses to the rest of your connected devices.

I assume you disabled the dhcp server in your wireless access point, so your wireless devices will receive their IP's from your router's dhcp server instead of your AP.

Unless you are using the router mainly to provide you with the firewall, I don't really see the need of it. Since your modem has a dhcp server built in, it'll almost sure be capable to act as router itself!

If you would connect your modem to a regular 8 port network switch (cheaper then a router, less worries), the dhcp server of your modem would hand out IP's to all your devices, as well as handling the NAT. All your connected devices would remain invisible on the internet, your modem will be the only visible device.

Anyway, with your set-up, what you would want to do is very simple. Go out, buy yourself a network switch (small 5 port will do), hook the cable now going to your HTPC into it, and then hook up both the Xbox and the HTPC to the switch. Both devices will get their seperate IP's from the router's dhcp server, and both of them will be visible on the network.

It doesn't matter if both the HTPC and the XBOX are hooked up to the same port of the router (through the 5 port switch), they will still each receive a separate IOP from the router.

You can split every port of your router to as many devices as you like (with network switches), while still keeping all these devices as sepearte entities on your network! This hooking up of switches behind each other is called "daisy chaining" and allows your network to grow progressively as you acquire more devices to be hooked up.

I made two drawings, one with the router and one without router!

Sorry, I forgot to put in the raid mediaserver, but it would be hooked up to the switch in the no router scenario, or the router in the router scenario, with a fixed IP address in the correct ip range.

Personally, I tend to give all my own devices a fixed ip address, makes it easier to trouble shoot if problems arise when you know what device is at waht IP address!

I do leave the dhcp server running if a visitor drops by with his laptop, or for devices seldom used. IObviously you have to set the dhcp server to hand out IP's outsude the range of your fixed IP's to avoid conflicts...

Edited October 30, 2006 by monty

[monty]

And in the last footnote you state something like the dns changes to often to set them fixed.

Normally on all your devices you set the dns to the IP of your router or your modem/router. The router will do the dns requests anyway on the behalf of your devices when requesting content.

If the dns changes (which they normally never do, unless when you change from ISP), the modem will receive the correct ones from your ISP's dhcp server anyway!

[LivinLOS]

ADSL Modem DHCP to..

8 port router (call it main router) providing NAT and firewall service and DHCP to :-

Desktop

RAID Media server

Wireless AP (multiple laptops and some tablets used for media browsing and control)

HTPC / Media PC linked into the Home theater.

I only see 4 of those 8 ports in use. Is there more not mentioned that is preventing you from hooking the xbox up to it? I assume this is a Windows network? If so, it may be time to sacrifice a few small furry animals, set up a genuine domain, and use Active Directory. The complexity level of your network makes it worth the bother. Using Active Directory is not as hard as sysadmins want you to think it is, anyway.

Problem being one of distance.. My router is set up and cables run through walls and sockets and only one cable over to the Home Theater equipment rack.

So I am in need of splitting that single cable down to the HT and adding a new device to use only one upstream cable to the location of the 8 port router.

[Simmo]

I couldn't quite follow your layout, but it sounds like you just need to add a switch down stairs. Plug your X-box & Pc into that and the cable from your other switch into the uplink port. You might need to use a crossover cable if the switch doesn't have an uplink port.

[LivinLOS]

Hi Livinlos,

I'm not quite sure if I grab the concept of your home network!

If I understand correctly you have a plain jane adsl modem with lan connection, providing the internet access to your router/firewall (connected to the WAN port on your router). Your router/firewall is getting it's ip address from the modem's dhcp server, while the router's dhcp server is handing out the ip addresses to the rest of your connected devices.

I assume you disabled the dhcp server in your wireless access point, so your wireless devices will receive their IP's from your router's dhcp server instead of your AP.

Unless you are using the router mainly to provide you with the firewall, I don't really see the need of it. Since your modem has a dhcp server built in, it'll almost sure be capable to act as router itself!

If you would connect your modem to a regular 8 port network switch (cheaper then a router, less worries), the dhcp server of your modem would hand out IP's to all your devices, as well as handling the NAT. All your connected devices would remain invisible on the internet, your modem will be the only visible device.

Anyway, with your set-up, what you would want to do is very simple. Go out, buy yourself a network switch (small 5 port will do), hook the cable now going to your HTPC into it, and then hook up both the Xbox and the HTPC to the switch. Both devices will get their seperate IP's from the router's dhcp server, and both of them will be visible on the network.

It doesn't matter if both the HTPC and the XBOX are hooked up to the same port of the router (through the 5 port switch), they will still each receive a separate IOP from the router.

You can split every port of your router to as many devices as you like (with network switches), while still keeping all these devices as sepearte entities on your network! This hooking up of switches behind each other is called "daisy chaining" and allows your network to grow progressively as you acquire more devices to be hooked up.

I made two drawings, one with the router and one without router!

Sorry, I forgot to put in the raid mediaserver, but it would be hooked up to the switch in the no router scenario, or the router in the router scenario, with a fixed IP address in the correct ip range.

Personally, I tend to give all my own devices a fixed ip address, makes it easier to trouble shoot if problems arise when you know what device is at waht IP address!

I do leave the dhcp server running if a visitor drops by with his laptop, or for devices seldom used. IObviously you have to set the dhcp server to hand out IP's outsude the range of your fixed IP's to avoid conflicts...

OK you have me exactly on the right track and what I need is a 'switch' down at the HT equipment rack.. I thought it was either a hub or switch (doesnt one operate half duplex or something).. Now finding one on Phuket is my next task..

Is it not the case that most routers are router and switch ?? Thats what lead me to 'using only the client side' of the router thinking.

Lastly the router is in my mix becuase the ADSL modems I have gone through have been pretty poor in terms of DMZ / port forwarding / firewall / dynamic DNS / etc etc where the 8 port router is a quality SMC item that is fairly feature rich. If I had a more advanced modem or no desire for the routers features I could happily let the ADSL modem work to do the base tasks of the router I agree.

[monty]

Just buy a switch, a router does consists of the router part (to which you connect your modem) and a switch (to which you connect your clients)

Would be a bit expensive though if you only plan to use the switch

The difference between a switch and a hub is the way they handle traffic.

A hub is not very intelligent, and will simply send all traffic to all connected devices wether they are the intended recipients or not.

A switch actually reads the packets, determines for which device it is intended and will only send data onto the cable going to that device. Hence it'll handle traffic more efficiently, and increases the overall bandwidth of the network.

You should be able to buy one in any computershop, since switches are the basic building blocks of a network! Nowadays pretty cheap at around 500B for a 5 port and 800-900B for an 8 port switch...

Modern switches and routers are autosensing, meaning that there is no need anymore to use a crossover cable between switches when you daisychain them. Hence you also never see any uplink ports anymore on switches. (The uplink port was crossed already negating the need for a crossover cable between switches!

[LivinLOS]

Thanks.. I have seen lots of routers for sale.. No noticed switches (hence why I assumed hard to find) may just be me not paying attention.

[autonomous_unit]

Small "unmanaged" switches are much cheaper than routers. For the price of a typical ADSL+wireless+4port router, you might even be able to find a 5-port gigabit switch! The 100 megabit ones are much cheaper, i.e. 1000-1500 THB. I think it would be hard to even find a "hub" anymore, unless someone is trying to sell you 10 year old surplus.

At places like Pantip, they are readily available.

[monty]

In Tukcom Pattaya, a 5 port gigabit switch (I think SMC) is around 2500 Baht, they're not that expensive anymore...

I have a SMC8024L2, which is a 24 port, layer 2 managed switch (10/100/1000), which only was around 16000 Baht couple of months ago!