Marriage success rate

[Bill]

I was trying to list all the ways I thought my Thai girlfriend is better (for me) than the women I typically run into back in the USA, when he pointed out some troublesome statistics published by the US Department of Immigration (INS).

The INS keeps track of foreign spouses living in the US for two years.  Initially, they are given a temporary green card, and then after two years if they are still married, they are issued a permanent green card.  According to the INS, 80% of Thai nationals are still married after two years.  This is the LOWEST rate of all nationalities they track!  The best rate is for Filipinos with 97.5% still being married after two years.

Of course I realize it's important to treat every person as an individual, but this is definitely a warning sign in my mind.  Maybe all those suggestions I've been hearing regarding waiting at least 2 years before getting married really are a good idea after all...  In fact, based on other comments I've read here, it's probably best to live with them outside of Thailand for some time before marrying them unless you plan on residing in Thailand indefinitely.

Anyway, I'm a bit puzzled by why the Thai-Farang marriage success rate is this low (outside of Thailand).  Anyone have any thoughts?

Bill

[Thomas_Merton]

Anyway, I'm a bit puzzled by why the Thai-Farang marriage success rate is this low (outside of Thailand).  Anyone have any thoughts?

Perhaps these statistics could have something to do with your observations I hope the table displays OK. The original can be found at www.divorcereform.org/gul.html:

World divorce rates. Researched and compiled 2002 by Gulnar Nugman of the Heritage Foundation. Used by permission.

Divorce rate (per 1.000 people)/(per 100 marriages)

Australia 2.6 (00)

Austria 2.4 (00)/   43.4 (00)

Belgium 2.6 (00)/ 44 (99)

Canada 2.28 (98) /            37 (98)

Denmark 2.7 (00)/ 44.5 (00)

Finland 2.7 (00)/ 51.2 (00)

France 2 (99)/     38.3 (98)

Germany 2.3 (99)/ 39.4 (99)

Netherlands 2.1 (00)/ 38.3 (00)

New Zealand 2.65 (98)

Norway 2.2 (00)/ 40.4 (99)

Sweden 2.4 (00)/ 54.9 (00)

Switzerland 2.8 (00) 25.5 (00)

Thailand 0.9 (95)

United Kingdom 2.6 (00) 42.6 (98)

United States 4.1 (00) 8/     54.8 (85)

Source: www.divorcereform.org.

7 Source: "The World's Women, Trends and Statistics," UN, 2000.

8 Source: Monthly Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 49, No. 6, National Center for Health Statistics.

"UN Demographic Yearbook, 1999", United Nations Publication, 2001.

Source: "Recent demographic developments in Europe, 2001," Council of Europe Publishing, 2001.

Source: "Statistics in focus", "Population and Social Conditions".

10 Jean-Paul Sardon, "Recent Demographic Trends in the Developed Countries," Population - English Edition, Vol. 57, Jan-Feb' 2002.

[Bill]

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for posting the table of divorce rates.  If I understand it correctly, it reflects overall divorce rates within each of the several countries tabulated.  I have no doubt the US is one of, if not the worst.  Still, it does not explain why US-Thai marriages have a much higher failure rate in the first two years than marriages between a US national and other nationals (e.g. Filipino).

I am simply trying to understand why this might be in order to better prepare myself...

Bill

[TRIPxCORE]

Well, if I may throw my 2 cents in here, I might have an answer.  I am a US citizen married to a Thai national.  To say that we have cultural difference's is an understatement.  The Thai way of life is much different than the US way.  We do not see eye to eye on a whole host of issues that I am not going to list because it would take too long.  Simply put, as a farang, you must be very patient and open to new ideas as life in Thailand differ's to life in the USA very much.  The keyword here is COMPROMISE.  My wife and I are still happily married and we are going on our 3rd year.  We still disagree on things but we try to maintain our calm and work out any difference's we may have.

    As far as the Philippine's goes, I have friends that are married to filipina's.  These people tell me that much of the culture from the PI comes from the USA and the fact that many Filipino's are Catholic, which is widely practiced in the USA, helps with couples' moral compatability.  Also the fact that there are so many Filipino's in the USA already, new filipino's can start to feel at home much quicker than a Thai could because of the presence of familiar people.  I hope this helps.

[LordHawHaw]

One should be very skeptical about comparisons between official divorce rates for Thailand and for the USA, IMHO.

We don't know how many Thai marriages are not officially registered, and we don't know how many of those fall apart.  We also don't know how many officially registered Thai marriages have in fact fallen apart but NOT ended with official divorce.  

What the INS statistics seem to imply -- if you are a bit of a cynic -- is that Thai females marry, go overseas, establish residence, and then kiss their husbands off.  That does happen, but we don't know how often.  We can argue forever about whether it is a cultural pattern.  (I believe it is.)

There are lots of anecdotes out there, but in the final analysis they tell us only that the range of possibilities is wide.  

The wise man plans for the worst and enjoys the best while he has it.

There are many posts on this site about romantic relationships between Thais and farang.  Perhaps there is something to be learned from a reading of all of them...or then again, perhaps each of us has to make his own mistakes!

[poohbah]

Keep in mind also that the people who do not have serious relationship problems are not likely to advertise.

[Thomas_Merton]

I was trying to list all the ways I thought my Thai girlfriend is better (for me) than the women I typically run into back in the USA, when he pointed out some troublesome statistics published by the US Department of Immigration (INS).

Hi Bill,

I think there are elements, in all of these replies, to help you with respect to your request. Permit me to draw out those points I consider relevant.

The statistics I sent, were meant to show there is (however inaccurate these stats. may be) a real cultural difference between the majority of falang countries and Thailand, on the matter of divorce – particularly, the acceptance of divorce – which must be reflected in the percentage of divorces per hundred marriages. An anecdotal example of how things have changed in the last 40 years in Europe: when I was in school in the 50s, we had one boy, out of 650 who came from divorced parents – his father was South American, so we explained this as a result of S.A. temperament! Now, my youngest son goes in a kindergarten in Denmark with 29 other children, 15 of whom, come from divorced families – 50%!!!

Tripxcore writes: “Simply put, as a farang, you must be very patient and open to new ideas as life in Thailand differ's to life in the USA very much.  The keyword here is COMPROMISE.”

This is fundamental advice to any (falang to falang, or whatever) would-be married couple. However it presupposes that the couple have equally developed and sophisticated negotiating skills. They must also have (as has been discussed elsewhere in these fora) a common definition for the word compromise. I would respectively suggest, in addition, that the falang gallantly prepares himself to loose many arguments on the home front for the sake of family peace. :cool:

First though, the falang and Thai ought to try to understand, before marriage, each other’s point of view on certain fundamental areas e.g. life and death; the having, and bringing-up, of children; the importance (or not) of money; the acquisition of material things; your future aims and goals; attitudes to his and her families etc. etc. (I sure many others can contribute to this list).

One aspect of Thai culture that relates to the ability to “compromise”, is the concept of “loosing face”. All falang should make a concerted effort to grasp this phenomenon. Unless one can appreciate how important this is in Thai culture, all relationships with any Thai, will eventually have serious problems.

Tripxcore also writes: “the fact that many Filipino's are Catholic, which is widely practiced in the USA, helps with couples' moral compatability.”

The fact that Catholicism forbids divorce must have some bearing on the matter.

Lord HawHaw (an interesting name. My mother, who lived through WWII in England, would probably kill you) writes: “perhaps each of us has to make his own mistakes”

Quit right, but I believe we, who have had a little more experience, have a responsibility to warn that marriage is not just legalized sexual activity, but is a very serious affair, requiring just as much preparation and “engagement” as it has always done, if one is to avoid disaster.

One last point. Forget about the statistics; the anecdotal advice; the often cynical remarks from friends and colleagues; all 3rd party interference. If you and your future partner can end up laughing despite not agreeing – however important the issue – then you are off to a better start than many relationships, whatever the cultures.

Good Luck.

[lopburi3]

The statistics I sent, were meant to show there is (however inaccurate these stats. may be) a real cultural difference between the majority of falang countries and Thailand, on the matter of divorce – particularly, the acceptance of divorce

In the case of Thailand divorce stats are completely false.  Very few marriages are ever recorded here so when they walk away there is no record/divorce.  Take a look around at all the women with children but no husband.  They were married/divorced in custom but they are not included in the stats.  I believe the divorce rate here would the among the highest in the world if it included what is a normal marriage in other countries.  I agree that there is a real cultural difference - but it is that Thailand accepts divorce without legal process common in other states.  If that is what you mean we agree, but I believe you take it as Thai do not accept divorce.

[wolf5370]

I agree with LopBuri - Many Thai's do not register their marriages and just go their own way's and re-marry again later - i.e. no impact on divorce (or marriage) statistics.

Also, two further points:

Firstly, many farang men marry Thai girls very quickly. I know men with Thai wives that they knew for less than 2 days before they wed! Often with great age differences. Lucky (or unlucky) dip.

Secondly, the Thai girls most farang (especially the tourist wife shopper sect) meet are often of a very low educational standard and honestly believe the USA/UK/Europe etc is just like Thailand, but richer. Many could not point out Europe on a map of the world. They have no concept that the farang here throwing 1000 Baht notes around like confetti actually is not super-rich, but has worked a whole year to earn the cash, is frivolous because he is on holiday, and that 1000 Baht wouldn't cover a meal for one at a half way decent restaurant in Europe. I.E. They are blinded by the thoughts of happiness and luxury to come, and fall hard when they see reality.

Many Thai girls miss the Thai weather, and way of life. Many can not cope with the rude Westerners. Many feel lost and lonely (and left out) in the foreign land. It seems to me that Thai girls seem to feel this more than most others - Thai's generally like to have fun (Sanuk) and being ignored at parties due to language barriers (or expected language barriers) or snobbery impacts badly.

Phillipino's seem to adjust quite well, but then it is practically the 51st state anyway   (probably get slapped for that, but there you go).

What might be of interest would be to compare the divorce rate against in-a-flash marriages - Vegas weddings perhaps. How do they compare?

Wolf

[irishman]

For what it's worth, I know a farang/Thai couple who don't live together any more but are still friendly enough that he won't divorce her until after the two year period ends just so she can get her permanent green card.  Stuff like that screws up the stats. also.

[hukster]

I totally agree with wolf 5370. When you take a Thai lady to a foeign land, she has no concept of life in the western world. I have a TGF of one year that lives up country. I plan to retire in Thailand this summer. She my TGF wants to have a Thai traditional wedding in her village. This type of wedding, and correct me if i'm wrong is not recognized by the Thai government, or any other government therefore would not be registered. Now i've known this girl for a year, but the question is how well do i realy know her? I've been to Thailand 3 times in the last year, and we have stayed together for a month at a time. But that's not the same as living together when your not on holiday. In my opinion there is no hurry to jump into a marrage so quickly when we already know there is a huge cultural gap to start with. Unfortunately those who want to bring there TGF to there home country to live are actually being forced by their own governments to get married at least within 3 months after arrival.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The ' traditional ' wedding is not a valid wedding.   As well canvassed on the forum, Thai law does not recognize any   defacto marriages whatsoever. To validate the upcountry   affair,   you'd need to register the marriage at the district  office, if that is what you want.

[Marcel]

I'm agrree with LordHawHaw. Is very difficult to look anly at statistics because to be married "in statistical way" means only on paper, to live as more or less happy couple together is some real differnce. Most (think more then 50%) of the Thai who are married as exemple in Switzerland are married on paper five years. Most of them (think 80-90%) live not together with husband. But they not officely divorced because then they loose any permission. So it's reality that very high percentage is in economic reasons.

I know some couples (Thai/Swiss) they are very happy married. Unfortunately is the minority.

Marcel

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Don't ever offer UNSUBTANTIATED statistics here...that is WRONG   .....go and substantiate and repost   :ghostface:

[dlfisher]

Am I missing something here. 80% still married. That means 8 out of 10 are still together, only 2 aren't. Sounds pretty good to my cynical mind

[DaveYo]

Greetings.  Just reading this really intrigue me to make a comment.  True in the Philippines they do not believe in Divorce, but contrary once any foreigner female gets here in the USA for example, the taste of the freedom that they get plus then finding out that the laws here favor the females, it is no wonder after they get done gossiping among the girls the foreigner female decides to take the boardwalk after 2 years being in USA.  The same applies to Thai women. In Thailand, women are lower than the men, and in Thailand, men are above the women by a mile.  The women in Thailand for the most part practically have little tools legal wise to protect themselves.  Also some of the laws changed recently such as Thai women now can marry a foreigner without risk of losing privileges in owning land and home or property so to speak.  Before they could lose many rights generally given to their citizens, so it is no wonder many of the marriages were not legalized.  Understand.  True, Thai people especially women - even now are almost powerless to prevent a man jumping into bed that is made from another Thai woman.  Also a woman must wait a year before she is allowed to marry again by law, where as a man can practically marry another Thai in 24 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  So what is fair here??????  Believe me once a foreigner woman is married to you and you bring her here and she becomes Americanized, trust me she then can decide to take the Boardwalk and play the musical chairs with other suitors if you are not alert enough to see the warning signs.  I tend now to agree if you do bring the woman here make sure her stay here is BRIEF and both of you head out back to her country before she gets a bit comfortable here.  Hope this sort of straightens out some confusion in this topic.

[kv244]

i see a lot of posts on this board (and also on soc.culture.thai) about farangs whose TGF's are mostly from the rural areas, quite a few are ex-bargirls, or otherwise have little education and awareness of the world.

it would be interesting to hear from someone who is married to/dating a more cosmopolitan girl, someone who has traveled perhaps, even lived in the West? i am SURE there are quite a few cases like this, i myself have had quite a few Thai classmates in college (pretty AND smart AND westernized), and i also met quite a few girls in Bangkok who don't fit the description of the poor ignorant rural Thai girl for whom the water buffalo is a more common sight than a Sony Clie PDA. it would be interesting to hear what are the challenges in a relationship like this, where both parties are relatively close as far as the level of ease in the 'modern' world is concerned.

i, for one, have spent half of my life in Eastern Europe, 25% in Western Europe and 25% in the US, and while i can operate quite fully in the West, do not necessarily see myself as a bona-fide Westerner. some things that define the Western culture are simply acquired and were not ingrained in me at birth. i assume a modern/self actualized young Thai lady working for a (say) Western co in Bangkok and hanging out in more cosmopolitan venues may have a perspective similar to mine and would be perfectly able to have a happy relationship with a Westerner. but i have no facts to bolster my assumption.

[cbatson]

...when he pointed out some troublesome statistics published by the US Department of Immigration (INS).

Dear Bill,

Where can one find these statistics you mention?  I looked on the INS website but was unable to find this.

Best regards,

Chuck

[thaidan55]

Its been just over three years with my wife here and to all some sound advise:

 *Marry a lady thats in your age group*

 Lets be real here, a man 55 plus with a lady under 22 is asking for it to begin with.  I'v lived here in Thailand for a very long time now and seen many friends that thought they could live with a much younger women end up in a sad state leading to a divorce.  This I believe is the number one reason why farang men here are facing marriage problems.  Sure some are happily married but with such an age difference along with cultural difference.....I wont go on.  If your here thinking about looking for a women to spend the rest of your life with, please find a women that suits your age.

[wolf5370]

kv244, Hi, I made my earlier post with regard to the less educated rural girls as you noted. This is because most farangs never get past the bars and hotel maids they meet on their hols.

I think you would have to live in Thailand to stand much of a chance of meeting a more sophisticated lady in Thailand. They are either traditional, and do not frequent farang watering holes, or are modern (office?) girls who go around in groups often with colleagues of both genders – and therefore quite unapproachable.

For example, my wife was a teacher when I met her. She never went to bars or clubs (never been to one in her life at that point – she was 20 then), and would not frequent the places most tourists do. We met through family – the wife of my best friend (both Thai) through school in the UK and business partner (Thai Restaurant for a while) is the aunt of my present wife. We met at a family gathering – I was attracted to her and mentioned it to my friend. Some time later we were properly introduced and went out together – with my friend and wife as chaperone. We were never alone during the two years we where courting; until we were married!

I was her first boyfriend. Needless to say, her family are very traditional. We are of similar ages and I was sized up (and my family came to Thailand to meet the in-laws-to-be and were probably equally sized up) for suitability before we where allowed to become an item.

We are closing in on our 5th anniversary and have 2 girls. We are very happy. She is certainly not subservient, but she is also not confrontational. She is a far better money manager than I. She learnt English very well and very quickly even given my bad habit of attempting to use my pigeon Thai all the time. We both live in the UK now for 4 years, and there are very few problems for her. There is a Thai community just about everywhere in the UK now, and she has friends. We have satellite and can receive Global Thai TV 5 (mixture of  Thai terrestrial channels).

So, yes I think it does work better, as ThaiDan55 said, if the age difference is reasonable, and if your level of education is close too.

[horke]

Correct me if I'm wrong , but isn't it an advantage to go through a marriage ceremony that has no legal validity and is not officially recorded ? If it goes wrong , you can walk away without having to pay a divorce settlement ?

Any ideas on this ?

Horke

[D80]

I agree with lots of things Thomas_Merton mentioned.  I also would like to add that from what I have seen many foreigners seem to come to Thailand, look for a wife and get married so quickly that it is pretty rediculous.  Thai people usually don't get married as quickly as that and usually in Thai society if you get married so quickly it isn't a good sign (just what I've been told).    

So I would say, try to get to know the person you are marrying first.  That should apply to everyone anyway and not just Thais.  If you take marriage that seriously and don't really want to end up being one of the divorce statistic, then take it slow and learn more about each other along the way.  My husband and I waited for quite a long time before we get married.  If you want to take it as a lifelong commitment then don't rush.

And really, why care so much about divorce statistic?  I mean, yeah, it could mean that there are quite a few marriages that don't work out or are just shams.  But that has nothing to do with your personal relationship with this girl, unless there is something to be suspicious about.  In that case, you shouldn't be thinking about marriage so soon anyway regardless of what nationality your bride-to-be is.

I consider myself to be pretty westernised, yet there are differences between my husband and me that we need to sort out sometimes.  So if you want to prepare for anything, then prepare to communicate and compromise as many people on this board have said.  

Hope things work out for you.