Virginity And Sex Before The Marriage

[Potter]

I understand sex or living together before marriage is a very bad thing in Thailand. It is often seen as prostitution and disrespect of the parents. This would cause the whole family to lose face. Thais also believe marriage should come before sex. Us forreigners are somewhat different. We want to try to live together before making bigger commitments.

Now the case is this. The girl is from a conservative middle class family. Nobody in the family has disrespectful works. She has previously had a thai boyfriend for 5 years. All her family thinks she is virgin, but the truth is she lost her virginity many years ago.

1) What does this mean in the thai culture?

2) What will happen to the messenger who brings the news of lost virginity?

3) Would all the family possible "ตี - Dtee" her and what does this exactly translates into?

4) How should the message be brought:

a. The girl herself bring the bad news

b. The boyfriend be the person who informs the father/rest of family and what will happen if he does so?

c. A respectful third person.

d. Just ignore the case and marry before sex and living together.

e. Other obtions?

5) What do thais think of such a girl and what obtions does she have?

6) There is somekind of nothern thai ritual she should make. Can anybody tell me more about this?

7) Will the messenger be the person who will be fault of causing the social problems?

8) Any other advice or things to consider?

Both are 28 years old. It is in nobodys intention to have anybody lose face. But the truth is bitter. The westerness parents do stand strong. If can not live together before marriage, it is a reason to break up.

Thanks

Potter

Edited November 20, 2006 by Potter

[Potter]

Had a talk about marriage in an other thread. To those curious, here is the link.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...=91672&st=0

By the way - Can anybody recommend any good books on the subject?

[taxexile]

If can not live together before marriage, it is a reason to break up.

all the more reason for you both to think long and hard before marriage , so that once married you are both sure that you can give and take , be tolerant and forgiving , be strong and loving enough so that there wont be a reason for the marriage to fail ........ and wont run out the door screaming divorce as soon as the first argument occurs.

its called commitment. for better or for worse.

[cdnvic]

5) What do thais think of such a girl and what obtions does she have?

This sums up your whole attitude which is what can lead to big problems for you. You are expecting Thais to be some regimented society where everyone thinks and acts the same. If you haven't had enough experience with Thais to understand how to judge them as individuals you are courting disaster by marrying one.

[roguegirl]

Living together is typically a western culture which just had been brought into the Asian community through gobalisation. Something new and something people in Asian cities are trying to copy.

But having said that, divorce rates is still very much higher than in many conservative society in Asia. So, for Westerners to actually impose and indicate that their culture is better in determining the success of a marriage has no basis at all.

The same goes with sex before marriage. It does not indicate a clear path to a marriage failure!

The many elders in our society and community do not normally live together before marriage but many of them are still very much married to each other. Marriage is a commitment that is still uphold in many Asian countries and in some communities, seen and taken as sacred.

In the olden days, marriage and the tradition of marriage is "created" to separate humans from animals.

[roguegirl]

If can not live together before marriage, it is a reason to break up.

This is where you are actually putting the pressure on the girl. If you are really serious, why not ask her parents if you both can live together before you both decided to tie the knot?

Mind you, family is still a big thing in Asian community and is very much a part of a married couple. So... before you think of marrying an Asian - whatever country she is from - it is best that you understand the culture and tradition where she is born into. This is not just about the woman alone but it involves the whole works that identify her as who she is. Individualism is still very much an alien thing to many Asian community. For us, we live in a community so we are taught to be mindful of those living next to us... like our family.

Edited November 20, 2006 by roguegirl

[roguegirl]

Now the case is this. The girl is from a conservative middle class family. Nobody in the family has disrespectful works.

All the more reason why they are protective of their "face".

Virginity? I think that is not much of an issue nowadays. Gone are the days when a woman must have sex on a white sheet on her wedding night to prove her virginity even in the utmost conservative of community.

Virginity may be something the elderly stress but it is not crucial as in a life & death matter.

Edited November 20, 2006 by roguegirl

[PeaceBlondie]

Okay, speaking as a Westerner who married a Western woman, and we were both virgins on our wedding night. None of our six kids waited until marriage. One of them is still unwed after 5 years and one kid together.

The idea of waiting to have intercourse until the community performed an acceptable ceremony, is an antiquated village idea for 14 year olds, where knowledge about sexuality was rigidly controlled. Now, kids mature sexually one or two years earlier than their grandparents did, and they know a lot about sex when puberty starts. Should we expect them to wait from age 13 to 23? That's absurd, in Thailand and in the West.

But in a conventional society like the old-fashioned generation of Thais, the above paragraph simply makes no sense. Of course, Grandpa Somchai and Grandma Lek expect Sasapacha and Patakorn to wait forever, while the media shout SEX, SEX, THAI SEX IN THAILAND all day and night.

[MiG16]

what I dont understand about the OP's question is this..despite what the elders and community will or will not think, what need is there to share this info with anyone else apart from the woman and her future husband? if you are the future husband, and you are aware of and happy to accept the fact she is or isnt a virgin, i dont see why any of the other questions should arise at all

[roguegirl]

Not only you may find Asian (not only Thailand but also other countries in the Asian region) way of thinking as very nonsensical in the Western of thinking but also bloody full of cow dung.

Unfortunately, that is where our differences lie. So, what with the world's diversity, do you believe that the Western way is the best with regard to relationship and marriage? To me, until they can show that living together CAN reduce divorce rates, I will keep my view intact.

Edited November 20, 2006 by roguegirl

[mcd]

if you are the future husband, and you are aware of and happy to accept the fact she is or isnt a virgin, i dont see why any of the other questions should arise at all

Potter, pls correct me if i'm wrong. I read both threads a few times. And from my understanding, the OP wants to live with his gf without getting married, because that's how people do in the west. But apparently it's different in Thailand. The OP thinking she's not a virgin anyway, so how to tell her parents so they could move in together?

[Naam]

Mind you, family is still a big thing in Asian community and is very much a part of a married couple. So... before you think of marrying an Asian - whatever country she is from - it is best that you understand the culture and tradition where she is born into. This is not just about the woman alone but it involves the whole works that identify her as who she is. Individualism is still very much an alien thing to many Asian community. For us, we live in a community so we are taught to be mindful of those living next to us... like our family.

words of truth and wisdom "roguegirl". however i would like to add a caveat and i think i am entitled to it as i am married to an asian lady since 27 years and 11 days.

my point is that us '<deleted>' westerners will never be able to understand fully asian culture(s) and tradition(s) no matter how educated/open minded we are and how hard we try. until today -after being married nearly three decades- i am still confronted once in a while with surprises and i have to deal with them. there are certain facts we westerners have to accept without challenging them but there are other facts which we have to reject otherwise we would be bulldozed flat to the ground and lose our personal identity.

[Naam]

can't stop the urge to add an addendum or rather a question to my posting. as already stated i am married to an asian lady who did most of her studies in non-asian countries and we converse fluently in three languages. english is of course the preferred language although it is neither her nor my mother tongue.

my question is for those who married an asian partner and have only limited knowledge of a common language how do they manage. is it a big problem?

yes/no/sometimes/quite often

[MiG16]

d. Just ignore the case and marry before sex and living together.

6) There is somekind of nothern thai ritual she should make. Can anybody tell me more about this?

If can not live together before marriage, it is a reason to break up.

well based on point d) and 6) above it sounds like they intend to marry? If thats the case my original comment stands

but reading the last sentence by OP, Im also not quite sure what he really has in mind

a clarification would help

Edited November 20, 2006 by MiG16

[bendix]

d. Just ignore the case and marry before sex and living together.

6) There is somekind of nothern thai ritual she should make. Can anybody tell me more about this?

If can not live together before marriage, it is a reason to break up.

well based on point d) and 6) above it sounds like they intend to marry? If thats the case my original comment stands

but reading the last sentence by OP, Im also not quite sure what he really has in mind

a clarification would help

I'm glad you said that MiG16, because i thought i was being stupid when I couldnt make any sense at all of what the OP was asking about.

[roguegirl]

Mind you, family is still a big thing in Asian community and is very much a part of a married couple. So... before you think of marrying an Asian - whatever country she is from - it is best that you understand the culture and tradition where she is born into. This is not just about the woman alone but it involves the whole works that identify her as who she is. Individualism is still very much an alien thing to many Asian community. For us, we live in a community so we are taught to be mindful of those living next to us... like our family.

words of truth and wisdom "roguegirl". however i would like to add a caveat and i think i am entitled to it as i am married to an asian lady since 27 years and 11 days.

my point is that us '<deleted>' westerners will never be able to understand fully asian culture(s) and tradition(s) no matter how educated/open minded we are and how hard we try. until today -after being married nearly three decades- i am still confronted once in a while with surprises and i have to deal with them. there are certain facts we westerners have to accept without challenging them but there are other facts which we have to reject otherwise we would be bulldozed flat to the ground and lose our personal identity.

Well... it is the same for us Asians too. There are also still "shocking" things we find in western culture and a number that we Asians are not able to accept. We are all human and having the same problem actually...

For example, friend is married to a European guy and still find some culture there unacceptable. For example the naked sauna thing during winter, running and rolling on the snow and back to the sauna... Ask any Asian their opinion on this sort of thing and you'll see watch their reaction.

[Potter]

If can not live together before marriage, it is a reason to break up.

This is where you are actually putting the pressure on the girl. If you are really serious, why not ask her parents if you both can live together before you both decided to tie the knot?

I asked already. The answer was if I did like that, I could do it with a girl who worked in a restaurent.

[aussiecollin]

If can not live together before marriage, it is a reason to break up.

This is where you are actually putting the pressure on the girl. If you are really serious, why not ask her parents if you both can live together before you both decided to tie the knot?

I asked already. The answer was if I did like that, I could do it with a girl who worked in a restaurent.

Friend of mine marries an 18 YO from Issan: and they were living together in Singapore months before the Thai wedding. When the girl revealed all to her Mother, it had the most peculiar response that no sin-sot was necessary as she was 'spoiled goods'. The night before the wedding at the family home, the girl asked her Mum if she could sleep in the same bed as her husband-to-be, and permission was given.

The wedding was a typical Thai village wedding, big party the night before, all attendees giving envelopes of money to the couple (and most in the village are very poor I might add), water poured over hands by all the well-wishers, the cord wrapped around both heads...the works!

oops, forgot...the girl was a virgin when they met.

Edited November 20, 2006 by aussiecollin

[Nawtilus]

I was a virgin before sex and then marriage ruined it all for me

[mittheimp]

Urban Thai girls may claim to be virgins - even to their best friends - this though is not always the truth!!! My wife (then GF) told me that she thought all her friends were still virgins - even the ones living with their boyfriends - she also believed that all her friends still thought she was a virgin (despite living with a farang for 4 months!).

I think one big difference is that many Thai females never discuss sex with their mates in the same way western women do!

[lannarebirth]

I understand sex or living together before marriage is a very bad thing in Thailand. It is often seen as prostitution and disrespect of the parents. This would cause the whole family to lose face. Thais also believe marriage should come before sex. Us forreigners are somewhat different. We want to try to live together before making bigger commitments.

Now the case is this. The girl is from a conservative middle class family. Nobody in the family has disrespectful works. She has previously had a thai boyfriend for 5 years. All her family thinks she is virgin, but the truth is she lost her virginity many years ago.

1) What does this mean in the thai culture?

2) What will happen to the messenger who brings the news of lost virginity?

3) Would all the family possible "ตี - Dtee" her and what does this exactly translates into?

4) How should the message be brought:

a. The girl herself bring the bad news

b. The boyfriend be the person who informs the father/rest of family and what will happen if he does so?

c. A respectful third person.

d. Just ignore the case and marry before sex and living together.

e. Other obtions?

5) What do thais think of such a girl and what obtions does she have?

6) There is somekind of nothern thai ritual she should make. Can anybody tell me more about this?

7) Will the messenger be the person who will be fault of causing the social problems?

8) Any other advice or things to consider?

Both are 28 years old. It is in nobodys intention to have anybody lose face. But the truth is bitter. The westerness parents do stand strong. If can not live together before marriage, it is a reason to break up.

Thanks

Potter

I don't understand. Why would you want to bring up this issue at all with the parents? Who does it benefit? If your argument to the parents for living with the girl is "that she's already used goods", well I don't think that's a very good approach.

Edited November 20, 2006 by lannarebirth

[lannarebirth]

If can not live together before marriage, it is a reason to break up.

This is where you are actually putting the pressure on the girl. If you are really serious, why not ask her parents if you both can live together before you both decided to tie the knot?

I asked already. The answer was if I did like that, I could do it with a girl who worked in a restaurent.

OK, I see now. You asked and they said no.

I'd still forego the expose of the girl's past. That's not going to help anyone IMO. Decide if you want to marry her, continue to date her, or move on.

[Naam]

"For example, friend is married to a European guy and still find some culture there unacceptable. For example the naked sauna thing during winter, running and rolling on the snow and back to the sauna... Ask any Asian their opinion on this sort of thing and you'll see watch their reaction."

------

but i am sure that nobody is forcing your friend to participate in this ridiculous behaviour, isn't it?

[britmaveric]

Not a big deal any more I suspect!!

[Fun2Fun]

If can not live together before marriage, it is a reason to break up.

This is where you are actually putting the pressure on the girl. If you are really serious, why not ask her parents if you both can live together before you both decided to tie the knot?

I asked already. The answer was if I did like that, I could do it with a girl who worked in a restaurent.

The girl is from a conservative middle class family

Its not so much about facts and figures, but what others will think about the girl and by association her family.

[roguegirl]

"For example, friend is married to a European guy and still find some culture there unacceptable. For example the naked sauna thing during winter, running and rolling on the snow and back to the sauna... Ask any Asian their opinion on this sort of thing and you'll see watch their reaction."

------

but i am sure that nobody is forcing your friend to participate in this ridiculous behaviour, isn't it?

Definitely not, but it is still a shock to Asian people like my friend and me. The same goes to Farang who might find Asian practise(s) sounds weird and odd but we Asians certainly don't force you to follow if you don't want to.

Unfortunately, like it or otherwise, when we are in a certain place, we are expected to "respect" the culture there as oppose to being force to conform. Tolerance and thriving on common grounds is the most people's choice.

[roguegirl]

I was a virgin before sex and then marriage ruined it all for me

What can we all say, virginity is never the guarantee to a happy marriage. Do think that living together before marriage can guarantee you a better one?

Edited November 22, 2006 by roguegirl

[roguegirl]

I don't understand. Why would you want to bring up this issue at all with the parents? Who does it benefit? If your argument to the parents for living with the girl is "that she's already used goods", well I don't think that's a very good approach.

I can't agree more!

It also goes to show that the OP don't actually appreciate his gf by using this kind of approach.

The crux of the matter is that, virgin or not virgin, living together is not a culture every Thai take to easily. And it seem that this family is not receptive of the culture you want to impose on top of theirs. For one, as I had mentioned in the other thread, the family would rather their daughter not treated like a comfort woman to a Westerner.

As they had said, you can do that with a girl who works in a restaurant. 'know what that mean?

[Potter]

I was a virgin before sex and then marriage ruined it all for me

What can we all say, virginity is never the guarantee to a happy marriage. Do think that living together before marriage can guarantee you a better one?

Yes. For sure.

[roguegirl]

Yes. For sure.

Sorry, I am not convince. Neither do many Thais, I believe. If you think that your culture is better then maybe you should try looking for a woman from the same background/culture or look for a "girl who work in a restaurant in Thailand".

If you are sure about it then maybe you can put up a statistic that says living together will guarantee a better marriage. Just by saying so is not good enough to convince even the beggar on the streets of any Asian countries, not to mention Thailand. Even if there are Asian women who believes in this practise, it still don't reflect the general practise.

What did I hear they say? Do as the Romans do?