Capital punishment not an effective deterrent, say experts

[PeCeDe]

13 minutes ago, Ace of Pop said:

Eye For an Eye, rather wiped that out.

As I said, I'm not religious, but I did read the Bible over and over courtesy of my parents,   and "eye for an eye" was thoroughly repudiated by a few comments said by a better man than I in Mathew. The Buddhist writings also are full of stories with men having the choice to kill or stand their ground. 

I had the occasion to work in the Dallas, TX Fed. Building many times during my career, and it was said by people there they could smell the burning flesh from the local prison's crematorium after an execution. I doubt this was true because the prison was 12 miles away, but to me it brings home the finality, there has to be a better way.

Too often we hide away from the true consequences of what happens in an execution for example because we're not the people who have to carry out the dirty work. I was in the army once and had to carry out someone else's dirty work for them, something I paid for my whole life, and am still paying for.

 

As I said there has to be a better way.

[gandalf12]

The death penalty with not totally stop murders and the like. What it will do is make a lot of people think twice before they commit such a crime. This in itself with dramatically reduce the number of murders.

[rijb]

3 minutes ago, gandalf12 said:

The death penalty with not totally stop murders and the like. What it will do is make a lot of people think twice before they commit such a crime. This in itself with dramatically reduce the number of murders.

That's a good point.  There's no way to count how many people wanted to commit murder, and didn't because of the consequences.  Well, maybe in the future....  

[PeCeDe]

2 minutes ago, rijb said:

That's a good point.  There's no way to count how many people wanted to commit murder, and didn't because of the consequences.  Well, maybe in the future....  

Are you speaking literally? Because that number would be few and usually the type of  murderer who plans in advance.

 

What about the heat of the moment killer where I believe there's little to no thought of consequences. The problem for those spur of the moment murders would appear to be lack of long term education, basic understanding of our place in society. This is where the real consequences of our behaviour to one another has to be weighed, and as you know the consequences of our rash decisions are not just to the victim but many others left behind. Even to the guy who in the end has to tie the noose, throw the switch, inject the poison.

[Lucky mike]

Thought murder had to be premeditated?

[ChouDoufu]

what are the statistics for executed criminals

going on to be repeat offenders?

[Yinglove]

44 minutes ago, rijb said:

That's a good point.  There's no way to count how many people wanted to commit murder, and didn't because of the consequences.  Well, maybe in the future....  

There is no way to count what, how many have gone through the following thought process

 

I am going to murder someone.... oh no there is a death penalty, that's a really severe punishment - I'll remain a law abiding citizen.

 

I am going to murder someone.... the punishment is the rest of my life in maximum security prison with no hope of parole, what a puny little punishment - let the murder spree begin.

 

Dumb!

 

 

[Yinglove]

56 minutes ago, gandalf12 said:

The death penalty with not totally stop murders and the like. What it will do is make a lot of people think twice before they commit such a crime. This in itself with dramatically reduce the number of murders.

Nonsense.

Life in prison without parole deters just as much as the death penalty, especially you you take in to account most murderers commit their crimes thinking they're not going to get caught which means they don't give a lot of consideration to the punishment anyways.

[Yinglove]

4 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

what are the statistics for executed criminals

going on to be repeat offenders?

Less than the number of people wrongfully executed.

It does beg the question though, what number of innocent people being executed are you comfortable with?

(especially when the death penalty achieves exactly the same results in recidivism as life without parole)

[rijb]

3 minutes ago, Yinglove said:

There is no way to count what, how many have gone through the following thought process

 

I am going to murder someone.... oh no there is a death penalty, that's a really severe punishment - I'll remain a law abiding citizen.

 

I am going to murder someone.... the punishment is the rest of my life in maximum security prison with no hope of parole, what a puny little punishment - let the murder spree begin.

 

Dumb!

 

 

Don't be so hard on yourself.  We're discussing deterrents, not punishments.

[Yinglove]

9 minutes ago, rijb said:

Don't be so hard on yourself.  We're discussing deterrents, not punishments.

The punishment is the deterrent - therefore, you are discussing the punishment Einstein.

And whilst discussing the punishment, you are making a silly argument that someone would rationally opt out of committing murder if the death penalty is in place but rationally opt to commit murder if the punishment is life in prison without parole.

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Yinglove

[PeCeDe]

21 minutes ago, Lucky mike said:

Thought murder had to be premeditated?

You'll find the definition of murder, is "The deliberate and illegal act of killing someone." period. Manslaughter is when you kill someone accidentally or when you have no idea of what you are doing.

[PeCeDe]

1 minute ago, Yinglove said:

The punishment is the deterrent - you are discussing the punishment Einstein.

And whilst discussing the punishment, you are making a silly argument that someone would rationally opt out of committing murder if the death penalty is in place but rationally opt to commit murder if the punishment is life in prison without parole.

 

Agreed

[tryasimight]

3 hours ago, Yinglove said:

And all the murders occur in the other 19 states?

How silly.

 

States without the death penalty have lower murder rates than states with the death penalty.

 

 

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

 

You appear to have shot yourself in the foot.

Ah statistics.

 

Look at it this way.

I live in a nice quiet peaceful State...very few murders.....no need to introduce the death penalty as a possible deterrent.

Or I live in a quite violent State with a lot of murders....so we introduce the death penalty as a possible deterrent.

 

Now what do your statistics show?    

Non death penalty states have less murders?

Death penalty States have more murders?

 

 

Lies,Damn Lies and Statistics.

 

Politicians and groups with an agenda have been using this sleight of hand for centuries.

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by tryasimight

[tryasimight]

3 hours ago, Watchful said:

No question, the US does it all wrong.  No argument there.

 

While I am a proponent of the death penalty, it should be done it a way to maximize the deterrent value.

 

At the same time, I have no problem with the Russian system - 20 years in the salt mines.  Of course, very few survived 20 years, but I'd be OK with that.

Or the Chinese system.

Found guilty at 10 am

Appeal heard at 12 midday

Execution at 2 pm

[tryasimight]

3 hours ago, Salerno said:

When will the light be switched on for the anti "death brigade" so that they can see that not all proponents of the death penalty believe it's a deterrent, in fact it could make things worse e.g. "they've got me bang to rights on that crime so I'm going to take as many people with me as possible" mindset.

 

Can't speak for everyone obviously but it certainly isn't mine (as per above).

Yes, totally agree. If I'm going to die for the first one....what the hell they can only kill me once....yeeee haaaaa

 

But the same can be said for a life sentence too.

Edited August 13, 2017 by tryasimight

[PeCeDe]

1 minute ago, tryasimight said:

Or the Chinese system.

Found guilty at 10 am

Appeal heard at 12 midday

Execution at 2 pm

Or the North Korean way, cut them in half with a 50 Cal, preferably doing it in a Kindergarten School playground with the kids watching. That certainly deters... Not.

[Yinglove]

7 minutes ago, tryasimight said:

Ah statistics.

Look at it this way.

I live in a nice quiet peaceful State...very few murders.....no need to introduce the death penalty.

Or I live in quite a violent State with a lot of murders....so we introduce the death penalty.

Now what do your statistics show?    

Non death penalty states have less murders?

Death penalty States have more murders?

Lies,Damn Lies and Statistics.

Politicians and groups with an agenda have been using this sleight of hand for centuries.

Completely wrong you are.

 

Data is still collected after the death penalty is introduced so it makes it very easy to track the effects of the death penalty.

Does the murder rate drop after the death penalty is introduced or does it remain the same - if it remains the same it is not a deterrent.

 

[tryasimight]

3 minutes ago, PeCeDe said:

Or the North Korean way, cut them in half with a 50 Cal, preferably doing it in a Kindergarten School playground with the kids watching. That certainly deters... Not.

I have no knowledge of NK execution methods but I very much doubt it is you describe.

[tryasimight]

1 minute ago, Yinglove said:

Completely wrong you are.

 

Data is still collected after the death penalty is introduced so it makes it very easy to track the effects of the death penalty.

Does the murder rate drop after the death penalty is introduced or does it remain the same - if it remains the same it is not a deterrent.

 

Comprehension is not your strong point is it?

[Yinglove]

9 minutes ago, tryasimight said:

Or the Chinese system.

Found guilty at 10 am

Appeal heard at 12 midday

Execution at 2 pm

Harvest organs for sale on blackmarket at 2:01pm

[Yinglove]

Just now, tryasimight said:

Comprehension is not your strong point is it?

What have I failed to comprehend?

[reenatinnakor]

How can it not be a deterrent? Surely it reduces the future crime rate by one?

[PeCeDe]

Just now, tryasimight said:

I have no knowledge of NK execution methods but I very much doubt it is you describe.

Happened a few days ago... Unless it was our infallible war machine getting us ready for the inevitable. The point is it really doesn't matter how you kill someone, you're still killing them, ergo it's really not much of a deterrent how it's done.

[observer90210]

One logical aspect of the death penalty (or life imprisonment) is that if it may or may not act as deterrence,

 

...it obviously prevents and protects society from recidive by the culprits, as once in jail or dead they cannot perpetrate any more....no arguing about that....

 

..now if it will deter other criminals or not to act, nobody can answer that question!

 

The only debate would seem on getting a foolproof certitude that the culprit is 1000% guilty, beyond the slightest doubt!

Edited August 13, 2017 by observer90210

[rijb]

11 minutes ago, Yinglove said:

The punishment is the deterrent - therefore, you are discussing the punishment Einstein.

And whilst discussing the punishment, you are making a silly argument that someone would rationally opt out of committing murder if the death penalty is in place but rationally opt to commit murder if the punishment is life in prison without parole.

 

I know you're trying.  And I give you 'A' for effort.  

 

Someone who commits murder is not doing a lot of 'rational thinking'.

 

BTW:  punishment is not the only deterrent.  Expand your thinking.  This is not a black and white issue.

[Yinglove]

Just now, rijb said:

I know you're trying.  And I give you 'A' for effort.  

 

Someone who commits murder is not doing a lot of 'rational thinking'.

 

BTW:  punishment is not the only deterrent.  Expand your thinking.  This is not a black and white issue.

I'm not sure your either qualified or competent enough to be giving out grades.

 

For the death penalty to work as a deterrent it requires rational thinking by the potential murderer.

The fact that there is not much rational thinking going in a potential murderers mind goes a long way to explaining exactly why the death penalty is a dud when it comes to deterrence.

 

What other deterrents are there, enlighten me.

[ChouDoufu]

22 minutes ago, tryasimight said:

Or the Chinese system.

Found guilty at 10 am

Appeal heard at 12 midday

Execution at 2 pm

don't you mean under the communist chinese system:

 

execution at 10am.

found guilty at 11 am.

break for lunch 11:30-3pm.

relatives charged for bullet at 4pm.

[Yinglove]

4 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

One logical aspect of the death penalty (or life imprisonment) is that if it may or may not act as deterrence,

 

it obviously prevents and protects society from recidive by the culprits, as once in jail or dead they cannot perpetrate any more....no arguing about that....

 

now if it will deter other criminals or not to act, nobody can answer that question!

 

The only debate would seem on getting a foolproof certitude that the culprit is 1000% guilty, beyond the slightest doubt!

Well of course jail is a deterrent.

If the punishment for murder was 1 day in jail the murder rate would skyrocket overnight.

The question is if life in jail without parole deters all but a very small number from committing murder does the introduction of the death penalty have any effect.

If someone is going to murder at the risk of life in jail without parole then to me it's a given that they will also commit murder if there is a death penalty.

Given that there is no benefit in a reduction of crime by having the death penalty why expose the citizenry to the potential of an undoable wrongful execution?

[rijb]

4 minutes ago, Yinglove said:

I'm not sure your either qualified or competent enough to be giving out grades.

 

For the death penalty to work as a deterrent it requires rational thinking by the potential murderer.

The fact that there is not much rational thinking going in a potential murderers mind goes a long way to explaining exactly why the death penalty is a dud when it comes to deterrence.

 

What other deterrents are there, enlighten me.

You're on the home stretch.  The death penalty is not just a deterrent.  It's cleaning up the trash.