Tonykalniev

@ katasyd yes you are right on both points. we get the duty free benefit. and yes, we could have gotten something unique like a tesla roadster, but budget was an issue. in addition, if something happens to the car, lets say front bumper damage, we can easily and cheaply replace parts as the jazz is popular in thailand. same issue when getting a unique car. there are so many cool cars out there, we are just scared of maintenance problems.

but we did try to order the nissan leaf, but at that time the preorders were full so we couldnt reserve it...

Hi guys,

Again, it seems, I will be ranting about electric cars. We have received some time ago, the new Honda Fit (Jazz in Thailand) HYBRID from Japan. It was about January 2011 and our import company has contacted us that the car finally arrived in the Thai seaport and will brought to our house in the next few days. By the way, my mom works for the UN so logically, we bought an environmentally budget car that is, AT LEAST to make my satisfaction, a half electric car. She can get that duty free tax, which is pretty cool and we got the price from Japan whatever it costs there.

So the car came out at a price tag of about 700,000 baht with everything included up to our doorstep. So that is basically cheaper than the top model here in Thailand and it isnt even a hybrid. Statistically, the hybrid car can go 70 miles per gallon, when the normal 1.5 vtec can go 35 miles per gallon. That is half better milage. Sorry, I cant be bothered to calculate the kilometers right now, its too late in the evening.

Anyway, It is a great drive! The car is upgraded with special sound proofing that the normal versions dont have. It has auto-stop, so when you stop at a traffic light, the motor stops, but everything else works - a great benefit because idling your engine in traffic is the worst efficiency of a normal car. Also the car can drive on EV mode from 30km/hr up to 55km/hr for about 5 kilometers until it gives way to the motor to charge the battery. I also really adore the cruise control, working at its most efficient for cruising.

Trunk space is practically similar to the original, with the batteries taking up the spare tire compartment. New controls on the dashboard show EV-Hybrid information (its still in Japanese so I have to ask Honda to update that). And in addition a few cosmetic changes for more aerodynamics.

Yes, I know its not as good as the Toyota Prius, but for the price vs quality vs performance......I am completely and utterly satisfied.

So even if the car enters the Thai market, I reckon it will be launched with a price tag of about 1 million and up. Which in my eyes will be cost cutting as usual (removing heater, special spoilers, no automatic A/C, etc. etc.) and a complete smack in the face to the Thai people BY the Thai lies of "somebody needs to fill their pockets again"...

If you are interested in the car, you can look at the gallery on my profile and if you are really very interested you can contact me by e-mail to set up a day for a test drive (this is only for Honda lovers, technicians, and car technology enthusiasts). In addition, you can read my previous post about electric cars, if you are really interested.

Next step for the Honda is a solar roof package, which I will be going to soon and will keep record...

Thanks

Tony

ok, you make good points. but still, you have to hand it to tesla and the balls they have entering the market with such determination. I love them ever since their first release and really really love them after the test drive. I wish i could get the model s......

and i also wish some rich kid here in thailand instead of spending 30 million on a ferrari, he gets 2 tesla for less than 6 million each(the going tax rate currently is 80% for the tesla). now then i will think differently about the high so idiots in this country...

why dont thais then do electric car conversions here? my friend owns a garage and i have been presenting him with world wide ev conversion projects and companies around the world. he should do it too as he has the proper pick up chassis and staff...lack of creativity is what it's called, even though he has a proper masters in engineering. maybe he then could solve the problem of this climate for the batteries' efficiency.

and how do we actually know the batteries would suffer this deficiency in this country? nobody tested cars with lithium ion batteries with proper cooling systems and battery management systems here in thailand...only golf karts with simple design setups....

Do you think we can call the owner in singapore and ask him to visit with his tesla in thailand??? there is the same climate and i didnt hear any issues from him...we should invite him for a big ev party here in thailand

walking? the thais are TOO LAZY to walk. i love walking, but its also dangerous and hazardous.

Maybe they think its dangerous and hazardous too, that's your excuse, right, or are you also too lazy ?

no im not lazy, however where i live there arent any footpaths and sidewalks....and sidewalk in the city are full of motorcycles and vending shops forcing you to walk on the streets...please dont be sarcastic. and also the stink on the streets is horrible

replying to JPPR2:

Wow! wrightspeed has an awesome speedster! and your friend from tesla must have left too early. The tesla roadster 2.5 was tested in cold conditions this winter and due to its temperature sustainable system for the batteries, no drop in range was detected...go to their website and also read their blogs from customers....same answer...so there you are wrong...about the tesla. however, the leaf is a different story using a more basic air cooled system so yes maybe there will be a slight effect on range. but as i said, wait for better battery technologies....

replying to Travelish:

yes there are electric ones, that are as i said, useless at speeds and usless at range and the good one from boxer is tooooooo expensive. the malaysian one (see above name) is cheaper and better looking...

You mention the Prius as being the best option but here is a few facts for you to think about;

This may or may not come as some shock to you, but many scientists are saying that Toyota's best-selling hybrid, the Prius, is actually bad for the environment. Some are even asserting that it has a worse impact on our world than the widely-hated Hummer.

With such universal concern (whether genuine or a desire to be "hip") to live a "greener" lifestyle, it's no surprise that this argument has become quite heated, though surprisingly quiet.

After all, if Toyota says that it's created a car that gets excellent gas mileage and is therefore better for the environment than other cars are, the consumer wants to believe this. So what are these new, conflicting reports?

Is the Prius or is it not good for the environment?

The Beginning

The first I heard of any of this was in March 2007. My conservative Republican father snidely directed me to an article in Central Connecticut State University's school newspaper, The Recorder, that claimed that the Prius "outdoes" the Hummer in damage to the environment .

What??

This is based on a CNW Marketing Research report called "Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles From Concept to Disposal." But I thought the Prius was supposed to be great for the environment. It can get up to 60 miles per gallon of gas (though Toyota officials admit that most users will get more like 45 mpg on the highway).

As it turns out, burning gas is not the only (or even the major) factor in a car's impact on the environment. News to me!

The Other Factors

Apparently, when considering how "good" (or bad) a car is for the environment, gas mileage is one of the last factors to weigh. It's actually the production of the car that matters. The raw materials' sources, the manufacturing effort, and the shipping costs all have an impact on the environment. And apparently, those of the Toyota Prius are not having a positive impact.

The Numbers

The Prius' battery contains nickel, which is mined in Ontario Canada. The plant that smelts this nickel is apparently nicknamed "the Superstack" because of the amount of pollution it puts out; the area for miles around it is a wasteland because of acid rain and air pollution.

But the main problem that the "Dust to Dust" study has with the Prius' impact on the environment comes next.

That smelted nickel then has to travel (via container ship) to Europe to be refined, then to China to be made into "nickel foam," then to Japan for assembly, and finally to the United States. All this shipment for each tiny step in the production process costs a great deal, both in dollars and in pollution.

The study then concludes that -- all the production costs in mind -- the Prius costs about $3.25 per mile and is expected to last about 100,000 miles. The Hummer, on the other hand, with all the same factors counted, costs about $1.95 per mile and is expected to last about 300,000 miles.

The Other Side

The Pacific Institute points out the holes in the argument of "Dust to Dust" quite eloquently, and to be quite honest, I'm not sure who to believe. They've written an entire article debunking the study.

They argue that the study bases its conclusions on "faulty methods of analysis, untenable assumptions, selective use and presentation of data, and a complete lack of peer review." As I'm not a scientist, I can't particularly argue against any of these things; I can only report both sides.

More Math

An article in Wired's car blog Autopia covered this topic quite eloquently, concluding, "You might feel better driving a hybrid, but you won't necessarily be greener."

That's because each Prius consumes the equivalent of 1,000 gallons of fuel before its odometer clicks to 1. As we saw above, this is due to the manufacturing and shipping costs associated with the Prius. So while the Prius may not be worse for the environment than a Hummer is, it certainly would be given a run for its money when put head-to-head with a used car with reasonable fuel economy.

The Autopia article and the original article in Wired Magazine both agree that buying a used car that gets great gas mileage is the best option for having less of a negative impact on the environment. In fact, many cars receive up to 40 miles per gallon on the highway, which is almost as high as the Prius' 45 highway mpg, and those other cars aren't killing the environment quite as much in their manufacturing process.

Let the Market Decide

Ultimately, new technologies will always come under all types of scrutinies. Hybrid automobile technology is no different, and surely scientists and marketing executives will continue to argue about this for years.

The moral of the story, to me, seems to be to do your research instead of listening to media hype. Don't believe at face-value the hype a company gives you when selling its product. Don't read just one article and let it change your decision to buy a car.

The market will decide whether or not the Prius and other hybrid vehicles help us feel better about our impact on the environment until we can unlock Hydrogen-powered vehicles (or a similarly efficient fuel).

You are right, hybrid are bad (i never liked the double -the-problem thing) due to production costs, mainly due to their batteries. however, considering the nissan Leaf, it is 70% recycled and organic materials used in its body and the batteries are lithium ion. There are many battery suppliers here in thailand which reduces the shipping costs. In addition, i did state that future technology would be even better with organic batteries and other self sustainable materials.

In another point, the automotive industry hasnt given the electric car any chance yet. its still in its infancy. why dont we wait like to combustion engine and see what technology pops up in a 100 years. the combustion engine hasnt changed dramatically in the past 50 years, using the same basic structure....

yes, prius is bad, thats why i didnt buy it. but i did say for people that need a car badly now, its their best option for their pockets considering the rest of the bunch sold. it seems to me very unethical to buy a 5 million baht mercedes instead of a prius...and even then the thai market offers only that as their highest technology.

luckily, they will introduce the plug in prius which will eliminate that nickel battery process and thus reduce its impact...

in addition, considering the production process for a number of products (not vehicles) is also wasteful and horrible. take for instance a house. the materials and busget allocated to build one house: 40% of those materials at the end are thrown away....but thats another topic.

another point; consider the damage chevron and all the other oil companies (cant be bothered to research their names now) are doing to the environment such as 1 of them are the oil spills 2 amazon and their indigenous people etc....also the process of oil: drilling, extraction, transport, storage, refining, storage, transport, storage at gas station and finally in your tank to be wasted at an efficiency level of 25% AT BEST is just stupid...

in conclusion, with a little development, brainstorming, engineering and creativity, the electric car will look like the future of transport. In truth, i made this post so that the thais could push the government to release electric cars so that i can buy one

please also read the entire post....this isnt about the prius.....and i put up a few great ideas about the electric car....i hope you understand....

I talked to the sales ad marketing staff of Nissan and Mitsubishi. Both said that the Thai government doesn't want Ev's to be sold, because the power grid just couldn't handle them and they would need to build more dams and nuclear power plants in order to then release Ev's into the Thai market, which is COMPLETE BOLLUCKS!!!!

No, it is actually very true. There are going to be no solar powered charging farms in central Bangkok where the vast majority of Ev's would be used. If electric vehicles are used at all, they will all be charged in the central business district during the middle of the day at peak usage while people are in the office. Any electricity used to charge these vehicles will come from more natural gas power plants, or more coal power plants now that the nuclear option has been effectively shot down.

Please try and leave your biases at the door and listen to the reality that people are trying to explain to you. They are not stating complete <deleted>. They are stating the unpleasant facts of the situation, while you insist on visiting fantasy land. Fossil fuels are here to stay, and when they are gone, so is our industrial way of life. Some sort of life will be possible for a reduced population with renewables, but it won't be the happy motoring lifestyle we have today.

EV's are dead end, and I'm heartened to see that at least someone in government understands this. Conservation, low energy lifestyles, walking and mass transit is the only way forward. Cars are going to be museum pieces in a century. Neither hydrogen or electric vehicles are going to save us from that fate. The best option is simply to use existing internal combustion engines until the fuel to propel them is used up. Then, that's it. Bicycles are going to be all the rage for your great grandchildren.

the entire bts line can covered with solar. the lines, the stations and the trains. below that or at designated parking lots for bts, they could have the chargers. please read my comments as well as research on the upcoming technology on how evs and their infrastructue could benefit the people and the pockets of the already wealthy few

batteries can be recycled up to 90%, as proven by Tesla Motors, and thats after 10 years of their usage, as i stated before.

in addition, yes i love going with the bicycle, but have u tried on the streets in bkk? after 5 minutes you just give up. at least when evs are around you wouldnt mind being behind as there are no emmissions.

but fine, if you think those polititians are correct, then let the corruption continue, let the self interest of the thais be as it is, let the selfishness of road habits continue, let them drive with their large and dirty pickup for 50 meters from their house to their school (seen it), let vans leave their diesel engines on all day bringing the fumes throughout the halls of the schools where 6 year olds breath it, and then the parents think think why their child is sick...

walkiing and bicycles and public transport;; im all for it. but there arent any bicycle lanes in bkk, thus making it too dangerous and hazardous for health due to pollution. walking? the thais are TOO LAZY to walk. i love walking, but its also dangerous and hazardous. public transport? i love the systems put in place, but there is nothing near my house so i have no choice but to drive...

if the government doesnt want evs, then they should solve the above problems with more campaigns and infrastructure for those activities...

Rechargeable electric cars is a technical cul de sac if ever there were one. Expensive and with limited range/power.

Hydrogen is the way to go. Can use existing internal combustion engines or in a fuel cell.

Seconded. charging the car for hours every 200 or even 400 Km is no option.

Hydrogen seems the way to go, as it is highly energetic and just produces water when it burns.

Now the challenge is to produce it efficently and safely without busting any NPP roofs.

Hydrogen is a clean solution....to crude oil. However, they are just trying to make it so it replaces the fuel in gas stations. It will have the same volatile pricing. In addition, liquid hydrogen is dangerous and hard to process. Gas hydrogen is easier to make (a little). However, hydrogen in itself leaks when stored in vehicles. For example, leaving your car for 2 days, you will have 30% less in the car...

Other statistics: energy storage and transfer to propelling energy

petrol vs hydrogen vs battery = 25% for petrol at its best vs 60% for hydrogen vs 97% for battery (from Tesla)

In addition, new battery technology from UK university (can't remember which), lets you charge 10-100 times faster and have 3 times more energy density. will be released soon...

Ok, let me show you a good example of the benefits of an electric car:

no maintenance or very very very low maintenance (case of RAV4 EV owner in California: 15 years and only did brakes, tires and new batteries)

no fumes

no sound or cool whizzing sound (in case of Tesla)

motor lasts 400 years (power of magnets)

10 years of battery usage (usefulness of battery and even after that time it is still capable of 70%). after that, think of what battery technology will be in the market. organic, light weight, more power, more kilometers, more durable etc. etc. and then you will have like a brand new car...

high resale value or in other words low depreciation

in case of the eclimo motorcycle; you can submerge the motors in water and still drive... 0_0

think of the aftermarket parts possibilities for electric cars

possibility to add solar cells (once they become better) to roof and hood and paint and windows....

currently in thailand 1 liter of petrol 38 baht for 91 gasohol. ferrari goes 1 liter per kilometer if you push the car. an electric car can go for that same amount of money for a 100kms....

think please

By the way, just to let you know, the most polluting transportation category in Thailand are the motorcycles. Their engines are highly inefficient. Thus electric motorcycles should enter the market first. Please look into Eclimo and you will wnt one too for sure!

Electric vehicles; this is something Thailand is confused about. The current Motorshow has been underway since last week and Nissan has brought great effort to display their fully mass producing electric car. It isn't a concept and it isn't expensive. It is just like your average car that you see daily on the road, but with a twist....a BIG twist, considering the vehicles on sale now in Thailand.

The Nissan Leaf is a full electric car, meaning 100% running on electricity. It runs for about 200 kms, give or take, and can be charged just like your mobile phone...at night when you are sleeping (spoken sarcastically). Nissan claimed that once the Thai government puts in place proper tax structure for EV's, it will take them a maximum of 5 months to integrate the production of the Leaf into their assembly line, most probably the process as done currently in Japan (every third vehicle off the line is the Leaf).

I would like to share some of my history with you, if you dont mind. If you do, you can just skip this paragraph. All my life, I have loved cars. They are so much fun and such a part of a person's personality, the car in fact becomes you. The style, the comfort, the speed, the upgrades, the accidents, the noise, the quiteness, whatever makes you you, your car will be too (hey, that rhymes). Then a few years ago, I went to Los Angeles. I was so interested in the Tesla Motors company that I just wanted to test their electric car to find out what it was. I guarantee you, once you drive an EV, you forget about anything else! The Tesla Roadster Sport goes from 0-100 kmph in 3.7 seconds. Its silent when driven slow and spaceship-like when pushed at full speed! It goes for 350 kms on one charge and can be charged in 4-6 hours. Of course price is a problem, but this is where the Nissan Leaf comes in, isn't it?

So, what are these cars I am talking about, the Thai people ask me...Are they like golf karts? Obviously not. Neither are they stinky and noisy machines with hundreds of moving parts. They are simple setups, clean, quite, very fast AND more efficient in traffic.

So back to the Motorshow. I haven't been going for 4 years now as they never show anything innovative or it will be only a concept and never be seen on the Thai roads. However, knowing Nissan was finally presenting their Leaf, I just needed to go this time. I researched through 3 companies. Nissan, Mitsubishi and Suzuki are the ones ready to sell electric cars for the Thai market. However, the Thai tax structure is so biased, they just dont want to be bothered now.

I talked to the sales ad marketing staff of Nissan and Mitsubishi. Both said that the Thai government doesn't want Ev's to be sold, because the power grid just couldn't handle them and they would need to build more dams and nuclear power plants in order to then release Ev's into the Thai market, which is COMPLETE BOLLUCKS!!!! For example, Nissan had a whole infrastructure module shown next to the Leaf on how Ev's can be intergrated with the grid of solar panels and wind farms. Mitsubishi has the "Mitsubishi Electric" branch, which then can promote their solar panels to customers when customers buy an electric car at discounted rates. Doesn't that sound like a good idea? In addition, Ev's can become part of the grid, storing energy for the balance of power supply throughout the nation, as shown in Japan and USA.

Then they stated the issue of battery supply. Tesla Motors used to order its batteries from Thailand, but stopped due to high shipping costs and it's not like there aren't any batteries in Thailand, considering all the phones, laptops and other gadgets running on Lithium Ion batteries are supplied by the Thai Battery market.

It just pisses me off that the Thai government polititians and their sons own the spare parts of current vehicles on the road and so are thinking of profits only, as well as the silly tax structure that allows stinky, low efficiency diesel pick ups to be sold at such a low price tag and keeping that dirty diesel tarrif so low. The area where I work at (petkasem) is so horrible. 95% of the cars on the road here are dirty diesel based. I can't breath when I walk on the road!

Clearly, the Thai government has NO interest in the well being of the Thai people, only to brainwash them into thinking diesel, NGV, LPG are the only option for them. And seriously, what's with E85??? In the Motorshow there was a whole booth only for E85! Who uses that??? For the past 3 years the government has been promoting that, but has anyone seen a E85 car on the road, let alone a fuel station??? There are only 10 in the entire country!

At least Nissan's effort in the Motorshow to make such a big statement is great, as many Thais were surrounding the Leaf and asking questions. Finally someone is opening people's minds (I did it for 3 years without any success).

Even the motorcycle stands were horrible, only to show crappy electric scooters that have no speed or range and a hefty price tag...Eclimo, a Malaysian motorcycle company has recently introduced an awesome electric motorcycle that just blew my mind. Sadly, it won't be sold in Thailand. Nevertheless, I will import it

If you are more interested and would like to know more about EV's and what they are capable of, please look at the below links:

www.teslamotors.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrHXdM9f13k

www.eclimo.com.my

google the following:

audi e-tron

nissan leaf

tesla model s

mercedes amg e-cell gullwing

mission motors one

brammo enertia plus and brammo empulse

There are so many others, but that is up to you to decide if you wish to further research.

For Thailand though, if you are in need of a car badly, the Toyota Prius is your best bet at a great eco vehicle. Otherwise, please wait and if ANYONE has connections in the Thai government, PLEASE push them to release electric cars here. Bangkok needs them badly.

On another note, have you noticed any Camry hybrid or Prius owners driving irresposibly??? I haven't and I drive 60kms everyday. Obviously, hybrids and electric cars will have a big impact on accident rates, proper driving habits and ecological driving and thus people's personalities will change for the better...

Please let me know what you think, especially the Thai people. I would really like to see your point of view on EV's and your government policies.

Thanks for reading my post