lazurus

I also like the idea of decentralised power to Regions (But not the current administrative division of Thailand, larger regions...something like 10 or 12 regions- Example Issan as a block). I have understood also that it was a key factor in the origin of the Southern unrest.

The decentralised (limited) power brings the democracy closer to People, eases their involvement in the surveillance of Politics and gives better results for the local infrastructure investment decisions.

If you give the regions more power who will bear the responsibility for funding the regions? It seems to me that the largest source of revenue must be the Bangkok area. If you grant regions more autonomy will Bangkok have to pay their way? You see this is one of the problems with the 30 baht health scheme, it gives cheap health care to the outer provinces. But for anything more than Tylenol 30 baht doesn't cover the cost. That means someone else is picking up the cost. Probably the middle class in places like Bangkok. So the TRT gave cheap health care to the rural people to get votes, and then stuck the middle class with the bill.

It is not the responsibility of the Americans to police Thailand. They certainly wouldn't send a force large enough to keep the two sides apart. I suggest you ask the Iraqis and the Afghans if the Americans bring peace to a country. I think that you'll find the Americans would be more likely to end up shooting protesters than the Thai army has been. They have zero tolerance for people running their roadblocks.

Reds are fighting for the thing that so many stupid farangs who have written on this website take for granted in their home countries: democracy. For those who think it is purely about Thaksin's interests, you are so wrong (although, of course, he is the leader of the red shirts).

The real coward in all this is the Thai government, which was not elected by The People and is, therefore, not prepared to hold an election because they know they have absolutely no chance of winning. And why do they have absolutely no chance of winning? Because they know The People would not vote for them. And that, my friends, is why the red shirts are fighting: let The People decide who should run the country.

Each member of the democrat led coalition was elected by the People. The PPP ran into trouble when they bought their seats from the People. Abhisit will certainly hold elections. There is no evidence that he will hold onto power beyond his term, which ends in 2011. He is not obligated to hold elections before that time, any sooner would be a compromise. How many governments around the world call elections early if they think they are going to lose? Elections should only be held when the safety of the population is restored. Elections should only be held when candidates from each party can campaign without being intimidated. Elections should be held that are free from vote buying, I know that is unlikely. When the elections are held a large portion of the population will vote for the democrats. The People are also made up of those who do not support the reds or the PTP, they shouldn't lose their representation because of an angry mob.

In the last election the seats decided by proportional representation where the voter is asked to choose a party the democrats and the PPP received almost exactly the same amount of support (39.6%). That suggests that as a party the democrats have significant support. I'm sure the reds would like us all to believe that the PTP would get 100% of the vote in elections held today, but that just isn't the case.

In 2006 The TRT won the election which leads to their claim that Thaksin is the legitimate leader of Thailand. Remember that those elections were boycotted by the opposing parties. The TRT got 15.8 million votes. Despite not having anyone else to vote for 13.6 million Thais showed up at the polls and voted either No vote or cast invalid ballots. The TRT, PPP and PTP do not represent the whole country. In a democracy you have to respect all citizens, not just the loudest ones.

Arrest anyone not carrying an ID card.

Arrest somebody. The red convoy that was cut off yesterday should have been rounded up and arrested, not allowed to go back to the main rally site. Start arresting the protesters, get them off the street. Cut out the catch and release policy, this isn't fishing. They are breaking the law, start enforcing it and they'll get the message. Keep sending them back to join the protest and it will never end.

I dont' think anyone is really fooled into thinking the protest is over. The large barricades are a bit of a give away. Hopefully the road closures around the protest site will keep innocent people out of the way and make it easy to identify the people participating in the protest. At this point if you aren't a red stay out of the area.

It's an odd situation now. In Saladaeng you have thousands of soldiers walking the streets with guns. Sidewalks are blocked with razorwire. There are large barricades set up by protesters. But life goes on. People have adapted and kept on living their lives in the middle of it all. The sidewalks are full of food vendors, offices are open, most businesses continue to operate. Embassies continue to function. You are fooled into thinking maybe it is safe. But at any time grenades could be launched. At anytime the protesters may provoke a clash with police. Yesterday they waged a battle for several hours on one of the busiest roads into the city. On Monday the skytrain shut down for hours due to sabotage. It wouldn't take much for things to unravel.

THE NATION: Dhamakaya Temple yesterday released a statement, denying the rumour the temple's connection to redshirts.

Red shirts call for reinforcements at Don Muang

"Following the clash with anti-riot troops, red-shirt leaders called protesters in Pathum Thani to reinforce their peers who were clashing with the force.

Hundreds of red-shirt protesters were seen coming out from the Dhammakaya Temple to reinforce the protesters at the front line." The Nation

As usual red shirt denials turn out to be lies.

The temple denied it was being used by the red shirts, the red shirts didn't deny it. If you are going to bore us with fake hatred at least get the facts right so your disgust is at least about something factual, here is an idea, stop reading the tripe posted by the yellows on here, their posts are full of hyperbole. Then read other publications and get some facts.

How about this, the Government said yesterday rubber bullets were fired but the army had live ammunition if they had to defend themselves against gun, yet a soldier riding towards them on a motorbike gets shot in the head with live ammunition, was he a threat? really? or were the army just firing live ammunition randomly into the crowd as they were on 10th (as seen on video but denied by the government).

As for the yellows, I think they gave up their right to take any moral high ground or offer advice 2 years ago.

If the soldiers were randomly firing live ammo into the crowd why weren't any protesters killed? The soldiers do have live ammo when they start firing on the crowds you'll know it. So you claim that the temple harboring the reds were lying when they said the reds weren't using their temple. Is that where the reds get their moral high ground?

The people upcountry are fully aware of these events, and each successive setback for them has brought them closer to the current populist fervor and their stubborn defiance of forces that, in pre-Thaksin times, they would have never dared to tangle with.

I think you have an overly active imagination or, at the very least, a great sense of hyperbole.

You may be describing 1% of the population, but my inlaws are red supporters and have absolutely no idea of anything you just said. What they know, by their own admission, is that the village culture says they should support the red movement, so they support it. There is no sense of righteous indignation except that created by the vitriol spewed by the UDD.

They freely admit that their economic livelihood is better under the Abhisit government than under any Thaksin compliant government, but that does not change their perspective. Their voice in politics is the same as it has always been. They get paid around 300 baht to vote for the person the pooyai bahn tells them to, and they consider it breaking a covenant not to do this. They would lose face in the village. This is the reality on the ground.

This is the real face of Issan. This is the majority of those upcountry voters you are trying to tell us are incensed at being disenfranchised.

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

The only people disenfranchised in this little suare are the elite UDD leaders. They need to be removed, and their treasonous propaganda needs to be countered by more rational elements of society.

Everyone wants to help and listen to the Issan people, with the exception of the leaders of the UDD who would rather use them for their own nefarious means. The problem with Issan is the very people that rural poor look to for guidance, are the exact same people whose only interest is in enriching themselves. This division in society will stop only when the elements inside the red movement fanning the flames of hate are caught and eliminated.

I can tell you with 100% surety that the majority of red supporters in Issan will not be incensed by the capture and punishment of the terrorists within the UDD organisation if the pooyai bahn tells them they should not be.

This is all about trust and information. The people are largely innocent pawns being used by people who care nothing for their well being. The best thing anyone could do for them is end these senseless protests and stop filling their heads with false vitrious propaganda.

Most of the top red shirt leaders don't even come from Isaan.

Everyone who has it.

Put on BBC now.

Poor Abhisit is tying himself in a wonderful knot trying to make the world understand what is going on in Thailand.

He makes himself look very very weak. "I do not have the power to issue martial law".

"The people who have the power, have no intention of issuing martial law". He is trying to skirt around the issue that he doesn't tell the army what to do, whilst not admitting it to the world. How wonderfully Thai.

I am sure he didn't learn the word "normalcy" at Eton. He is obviously reading the papers too much. I am sure it is "normality".

I guess you didn't learn the word normalcy at whatever school you may have attended. All you would need though is a dictionary.

nor·mal·i·ty play_w2("N0153800") (nôr-ml-t)n.1. The state or fact of being normal; normalcy.

A simple check would have told you that they mean the same thing. Problem is too many people here are so sure of being right they don't bother to check their facts.

its down to the poor against the rich,well thats what it seems to me now.

i am not a thai national but if its democracy they are after then call the elections

thaksin was sure as not honest but he knew how to run a country and i think also that some

people who comment here forget about the so called honest and democratic west,,ie ,bush against gore and

the uk ministers filling their pockets....i hope it dosent end up in a civil war and the only way to scale this down is call an election

and abide by the result,,,and this did all start over a coup by the army dont forget....

Actually it's the rich against the rich, using the poor as pawns.

It's not so much democracy but a ticket on the gravy train.

An election will only be helpful if they abide by the electoral rules.

The coup wasn't the start, it was a reaction to injustice and massive corruption.

Whatever the result protests and terrorism will be used to undermine the next government too.

TODAYS PICK: Kwanchai's escape to McDonalds: http://twitpic.com/1j2pkd (Photo by photo_journ)

Kwanchai may have been inspired to make up some new red slogans

We want democracy, and we want fries with that

Mcjobs for everyone

The revolution will be supersized

I'm just amazed how many people get killed or injured whenever "Warning" shots get fired. Who trains these guys?

If they stop warning and start shooting to kill you'll be even more amazed. Hopefully and moderate reds will see the writing on the wall and beat it like Michael Jackson. I know that no one wants to be defeated, but sometimes you should beat it.

By taking off their red shirts and continuing to pursue illegal and violent acts against the people of Thailand and those empowered to protect ... it would seem to me they are defining themselves as terrorists and getting away from just having terrorists within their group.

Taking off red shirts = automatically become terrorists? Where did you get that logic from?

Either you're a terrorist or you're not. A red shirt doesn't make you a terrorist, and a terrorist can wear any shirt he wants.

I think by taking off the red shirts, they want to make themselves less vulnerable to army attacks. Because the army won't know if they're shooting at a government supporter or at a UDD supporter.

And it makes all the regular people less safe since the soldiers can't tell who isn't part of the mayhem. I suppose anyone standing 30 feet from a line of riot police taunting them should be considered a member of the protest group.

Thailand's pro-establishment "Yellow Shirts" called Monday for the imposition of martial law to end mass anti-government protests by the rival "Red Shirts," warning they may take action themselves.

Is holding on to a prized government position really that important when people are being shot by the sons and daughters of these people; or are these soldiers selected by their patriotic oath, and the sympathetic ones left back at the barracks?

What kind of a soldier points an automatic weapon at the people he or she is sworn to protect and defend in the event of an enemy force attacking? What kind of soldier pulls the trigger, with the intent to kill or maim his or her own people?

It's the kind of soldier that is willing to do his duty. It is the kind of soldier that understands that a fellow countryman with a grenade launcher is just as dangerous as a foreigner. It's the kind of soldier who will protect innocent civilians when a violent mob threatens them. The reds may have legitimate complaints, even though that may not be why they are protesting. But some of these protesters have taken up arms, whether they be sling shots, spears, clubs, guns, or explosives. The truly innocent civilians should be protected from them. When an armed group threatens the security of a nation they must be opposed by the army and police, even if they come from within the nations borders. I'm sure the soldiers would rather not kill other Thais, and if they lay their weapons down and disperse they won't have to.

Soldiers ahve armed themselve up to the teeth for offensive drive. Reds have home made stuff and bamboo poles for defense. Don't let the soldiers become cowards hitting unarmed people. Why no talk offered?

Nice try. Nobody believes the reds don't have lethal weapons on them. Reportedly some of their fake monks are hiding them under their robes.

That would make for a great picture. If it was true. . You're posting rumours.

I've heard the same thing, plus they have the guns they seized and the grenades of course. And since when did anyone refrain from posting rumours here?

I would have engaged Phua Thai (possibly but not necessarily including the Red leadership) and come to an agreement on elections. Abhisit has already suggested 9 months, the Reds want 1 month. Enough of this BS already and negotiate something that saves some face all around and gets to elections in half a year or so. Note that not just a timeline needs to be on the table, but also the conditions of the election, or even constitution amendments prior to the election. At the same time, any violent elements in the Red protests need to be brought to justice.

(Sadly even this statement above some people will see as Red.. that's just sad. There is a clear path forward but Abhisit is unwilling (though more likely: unable) to take it. )

Incorrect. The red shirts have said that 3 months for new elections would be acceptable to them and they would disperse immediately if Abhisit agreed. He declined.

I stand corrected. Makes my point even stronger.. The leadership's inability to resolve a '9 baht' versus '3 baht' negotiation is leading to death, distruction and continues a path of civil war. Honestly, settle on '5 baht' and get on with things already. It saves face for all and is generally the Thai way. That this hasn't happened already can only point at an immense power vacuum OR conflicts of interests among the countries leaders (incl. military, etc, of course)

3 months is no good for the PM. His party needs to wait till after the next army reshuffle or they risk having the reds or PTP stack the army with Seh Daeng clones. There is no way the election will be called before then. And that is why the reds are so desperate to get it. Did you really think that the reds were willing to kill so many of their followers for the sake of a few months without other issues at stake?

Well this isn't the UK so what does it matter, Gordon Brown isn't in charge. In Canada the Liberals, Bloc, and NDP tried to engineer a change in government by aligning to unseat the conservative government. It is possible for it to happen in any parliamentary system. Maybe the democrats should have called an election when the PPP was disbanded and tried to get re-elected with no opposition party in place. I'm sure you would have disapproved of that too. If a party gets tossed out due to electoral fraud is their opposition obligated to immediately call an election to give them a second chance to manipulate the electoral process? It isn't a case of a couple ministers switching sides, it was a case of a government coming to power through fraud. The constitution did not require the democrats to call an election, the other parties agreed to support them. That's what happens in democracy sometimes.

TAN Network: Soldiers back away from further confrontation allowing reds to return to Ratchprasong

that might sound like a bad call but these boys will go back to the others and tell them just how scary that confrontation was and there will be less reds returning to the site tomorrow

they won't be quite so cocky either.....

Or it could have the opposite affect?? I do hope not..

They aren't the type for quiet reflection and self preservation, they've sealed their fate.

I wish the reds had the sense to walk away. Nation is reporting that roads around the protesters are being closed. There is speculation that there will soon be an attempt to disperse them. I was at Sala Daeng today and there is a lot of firepower in the area. If the situation boils over and the army opens fire on the protesters they have no chance. To this point the army has been very reluctant to shoot protesters with live ammo. If that attitude changes the reds will be in real trouble. Just walk away reds, just walk away.

If you have up to the minute info on events either near the old airport at Don Muang, or from Downtown please post them so people can avoid hotspots.

Kwanchai Praiphana fled from Don Muang where red-shirt protesters clashed with anti-riot troops back to Rajaprasog at 2:09 pm Wednesday.

Why don't they arrest him before he gets there?

THE NATION: Dhamakaya Temple yesterday released a statement, denying the rumour the temple's connection to redshirts.

Red shirts call for reinforcements at Don Muang

"Following the clash with anti-riot troops, red-shirt leaders called protesters in Pathum Thani to reinforce their peers who were clashing with the force.

Hundreds of red-shirt protesters were seen coming out from the Dhammakaya Temple to reinforce the protesters at the front line." The Nation

As usual red shirt denials turn out to be lies.

These reds should not be allowed to return to the main rally site, they ought to be arrested, they are pretty close to the prison anyway.

Reds have clashed with soldiers near Don Muang airport.

Until now Thailand had a lot to be proud of. While its neighbors went through major wars, genocide, military dictatorship and other means of self destruction Thailand remained stable, relatively peaceful, and more prosperous. Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam have gone through terrible hardships in the last century from which Thailand has been spared. It is really a shame that people are willing to push Thailand into a civil war that could cripple it for decades without need.

Many people are skeptical about the true motives for the protests. It is widely reported that protesters are paid to be there, and that some have had their ID cards confiscated in order to keep them loyal. The timing of the protests suggest that Thaksin's money is a factor if not the core reason for the protest. The perception that the average protester cannot articulate the reason they are protesting makes it possible that events are not driven by grass roots groups seeking change but by the leadership in their quest for political power.

The methods used by the protesters further alienate people from their cause. Massive disruption of transportation systems and almost daily bombings aren't making people more sympathetic. Systematic denials of responsibility after each incident make the leadership seem truly unbelievable.

At this point what are the protesters fighting for, and what are they willing to accept in order to bring life back to normal? If they want elections they can have them. 90 days seems out of the question for the PM but certainly within 180 days it is possible that elections could be held. Would they really start a civil war for the sake of 90 days? Unless the protesters cause a complete break down of law and order it is certain that elections will be held within the next year.

If elections are held it is unlikely that the wages and standard of living will significantly improve for the average protester overnight even if the PTP wins. If civil war erupts it will mean disaster for everyone, and for a long time. They have far more to lose than they can realistically expect to gain.

I visited the protest zone this morning. I saw the barricades with my own eyes. I saw the police and the army on the streets. They are armed, they are ready. It is a powder keg just waiting for a match. If the protesters force a showdown with the army I have no doubt that hundreds if not thousands could die. Is that price worth paying in order to speed up elections by a few days? Thailand has been my home for most of the last decade. I have always seen Thailand as a success compared to its neighbors. I have been to Cambodia and seen the people scarred by their civil war from which they have yet to recover. I do not wish the same fate on Thailand.