Awohalitsiktoli

6 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I traveled to over 20 counties before I decided where I wanted to retire.  I had a nice home in the USA California.  Pattaya by far is the best place for me to live life. To be alive.  A little drinking, partying, girls, beach, food, gyms, good prices, etc.  If one wants to live out their golden years on some island or some country farm, good luck it makes me sick and I would die.  I chose Pattaya because by far it was the best place for me to stay active, have a nice time. meet girls, etc.  But, I worked for over 30 years in a good job and have decent money so that is no problem.  If one cannot make it here or complains, it is 95% about no money I think.  But if you cannot make it here, good luck in Europe or the USA.  Or, some are just old cheap charlies and will never change. 

Looks like somebody is asking "friends" to post here (bit transparent). Time for a ThaiVisa poll on the subject. We probably should do it in a new thread and heed the words of the OP(see 496).

2 minutes ago, pepi2005 said:

I'd have no problem whatsoever with that!

Good.  I vote to create a poll on the subject.  But, I have no idea how to do it with the new upgrade.  Any volunteers?  The question:  Has the quality of life in Pattaya-Jomtien increased or decreased over the past ten years.

2 hours ago, Naam said:

 

please don't include me in "we". even 5 years later the selection of food, especially imported stuff was a fraction of what is available now. the deplorable speed of internet i have mentioned already and the variety of restaurants was poor compared with today. Suvarnabhumi did not exist and it was a gamble when to leave for Don Muang in order not to miss your flight. everybody has a different perspective.

Ok, I actually was not including you, but it could be interpreted that way.  You are right about imported food.  I do remember Big-C being here around 1999 (not sure).  Some canned goods were imported, but we had nothing back then like we have today at places such as Villa Supermarket (where you can actually buy a can of Dr. Pepper).   And we do have more food/restaurant options.  And, yes, the Swamp airport did not exist.  I have to agree with you on all three of these points.  As I think you know now, I am not stating that there have not been positive developments.  And it seems clear from your posts that you are not stating that all development has been positive. 

7 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

Well finally, finally, we now have someone here speaking up for anti-capitalism and the 99% I look forward to the Occupy Pattaya Movement getting their ya-yas out and showing us what's what.

You are misinterpreting what I said.  I am not against capitalism; rather, I would like to see its "spoils" more equitably divided.  Gross inequality is now a fact of life, worldwide. 

14 hours ago, Naam said:

 

i agree with you but i consider the advantages outweigh by far that some of old Pattaya's charme doesn't exist anymore. if i was, like in olden times, a tourist i'd miss the charme. as a near 12-year resident in the outskirts of Pattaya i enjoy what is offered today. for example a 100mbit fiber optic connection vs. the 128k wifi offered by a fistful of hotels or internet cafés 20 years ago.

Thanks......I forgot about the improvement in internet connections.  I like modern conveniences, but I also like the "old charm" of many cities worldwide--something that is being destroyed via overdevelopment.  It seems like development is taking place for cars and not people.  The change that has taken place has both positive and negative elements. For me, the negative changes are outweighing the positives.  Still, I would not yet want to live in, say, Cambodia, where the modern conveniences that have spoiled us are not so convenient in all parts of the country.   I continue to think that development tends to go through three phases:  1) underdeveloped (Pattaya-Jomtien in the 70s and much of the 80s), 2) the golden phase (not too much or too little development) and 3) overdevelopment (where we are at today).   It is a complex topic and views will vary considerably.

1 hour ago, gk10002000 said:

Heck my first visit was in 2004 and that was now 12 years ago.  Change has happened faster since then, but based on my chats with friends, Big C was there, and 20 years ago in 1996 there was basically as much infrastructure then as now.  More choices now, but nothing particularly unique.  Kicking my self now for not having gone back then.  I had the means, just was not even aware of it much.

Virtually everything we actually needed to have a high quality of life was here way back in 1999.  We have seen growth in a few positive things:  Central Festival Mall (Royal Garden was fine but CFM is much better), Pastrami on Rye, Starbucks and Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital, to name a few.  We have, unfortunately, seen an explosion of stuff we really did not need:  hotels/condos (some fine but way too many now), 7-11s (I like them but too many), massage parlors, bars, Russian-Chinese tourists (too many), mentally ill Neanderthals (farangs and Thais right out of prison and/or mental wards), crime, gangs, traffic problems, air pollution, water pollution, people pollution, and noise pollution.  It would be interesting at this point for somebody to construct a poll for the following question:  Has the quality of life in Pattaya-Jomtien increased or decreased over the past ten years.   I do not think that would take us off topic, but maybe the OP is not interested in this.

4 minutes ago, newnative said:

It's nice that this forum provides for differences of opinion and I certainly respect your opinion that Pattaya was better when it was smaller.   I don't think all growth is good--I lived in Northern Virginia in USA in the 1980s to 2010 and there was way too much growth way too fast.  But, I like that Pattaya has reached a size that allows it to offer a wider variety in many things.  One thing's for sure, none of us can live in the past.

Thank you for your post.  "Change is a constant."

9 hours ago, newnative said:

I'm not looking for America in Thailand--I would have made the same comments if I was from Australia or Singapore--but I am happy that Pattaya is big enough now to have a fairly wide variety of shopping and restaurant choices that cities in America and other countries have, including some other cities in Thailand.  I often eat out both lunch and dinner and I do eat at a lot of the non-chain restaurants around town, both Thai and foreign-owned,  but it's nice to know Sizzler is there if I feel like pigging out at the buffet. 

Sizzler has been in Pattaya for a very long time.  It used to be on the 2nd road side of Royal Garden back in the early to mid-2000s.  Your thoughts, and the thoughts of several other posters, are guided by the false idea that all growth is good (the mantra of cancer cells).  Most people have been indoctrinated to believe this because it fuels capitalism and big profits for the 1%.   It is hard for most people to understand why it is a false and dangerous idea.  Nobody wants to go back and live in a cave without modern conveniences.  We are only stating that there was a point in time when we had virtually everything we needed to live a quality life in Pattaya-Jomtien.  Too much development has destroyed several elements of that quality of life.  Not all people believe this, but many do, especially those who have actually lived here for a long time and know what it used to be like.

4 hours ago, newnative said:

I think Pattaya is actually at a good stage now. It's gotten big enough that it's able to attract nice shopping like Central Festival and the coming Terminal 21 plus stores like Index, Home Pro, and Chic Republic. Big enough to have theaters that play movies in English. Big enough to have a wide selection of housing--both condos and homes.  Big enough for quality hospitals.  Big enough for a wide variety of restaurants and food stores.  It's at a stage where the ticky-tacky and flimsy is being replaced by nicer and better quality.  Private industry is doing its part--companies big and small are making small to huge investments in Pattaya.  Now it's time for the city to step up to the plate and get working on major infrastructure improvements--including wider, better sidewalks on streets like Pattaya Second Road, improving road connectivity, eliminating parking on some major roads, reorganizing and expanding the baht taxi line, building parking garages, overhauling parking regulations, especially for buses, and enforcing better compliance with the laws. Unfortunately, a huge chunk of critical  infrastructure money is being spent on the very poorly planned tunnel project.

In 2000 we had two malls that I can recall.  There were plenty of theaters that played movies in English. There was a wide selection of housing, just not a lot of people like today.  There were far more greenspaces than today.   And we had a nice hospital back then.  We also had plenty of places to eat.  We did not have Starbucks and Central Festival Mall--both of which I like.  The streets and other infrastructure are virtually the same as they were in 2000.  Both beachfronts in Pattaya and Jomtien were much better in 2000.  There was much less people pollution and traffic jams were very rare.  The air seemed cleaner back then; and it wasn't as hot.   It was much easier to find a parking place in 2000.  I really do not see a lot of positive (life quality enhancing) development since 2000.  I like some of the changes, but most of them are causing a decline in quality of life.  It is going downhill and has been going downhill for a long time.

28 minutes ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

I think London has one of the highest ratios of public parks and green spaces to land area of any major metropolitan area...so I guess by your definition, it must have a great quality of life. Funny, however, the number of British tourists and expats Pattaya seems to attract. I guess parks are not the be-all and end-all of existence.

 

However, I agree with your general point...but poor Third World countries are generally not noted for the environmental protection and urban planning.  

No, London would not be a good example of what I am talking about.  Urban areas of that size have long since passed the point of no return. But green spaces do help.  The development of cities seems to go through three phases:  1) undeveloped phase; 2) a phase where there is not too much or too little development; 3) an overdeveloped phase and all of its associated problems (e.g. people pollution, traffic jams, air pollution, etc). Many of the posters who are stating that Pattaya-Jomtien is going downhill probably wish that it would have remained in the second phase of development.  What is happening now (phase 3) in terms of development is unsustainable, leading to a decline in quality of life for most (not all) of the residents.

11 hours ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

I certainly wouldn't want to live there...where can i buy my artisanal bread and chocolates...where are the beautiful ladyboys? It might be a nice place to holiday for a week or so but I'll take Pattaya as a place to live any time.

I would only want to live there if I could easily take a trip to a nice city with all of the modern conveniences.   The not so obvious point that I was trying to make is that the positive elements (e.g. beautiful natural areas, uncrowded conditions, peace and quiet, etc.) that you see in the picture no longer exist in Pattaya-Jomtien.  Why?  Because the planners, influenced by greed and the idea that all growth is good, embraced the cancer model of development:  growth, growth, growth and more growth!  They actually could have created a lot of green spaces, but they did the opposite and destroyed the natural environment, replacing it with a huge slab of concrete.   IMHO, there is a relationship between development and quality of life, but unrestrained, unregulated development often leads to a decline in quality of life. At that point, the place in question is going downhill, not uphill. 

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Agreed, though my druthers extend only to the hot shower. I do feel sorry for those that can't survive without all the crap of modern life.

What could be better than waking up everyday to the sound of gentle waves on the sandy shore?

Sadly for the must have's, they will never know such as the resorts never have huts on the beach, prefering to have high rises around the swimming pool, to make even more money on the available space. Only the cheap places have huts actually on the sand.

Wouldn't it be hideous to have to live on an island in a hut with not much around but nature.  Actually, some of the most expensive holiday destinations on the planet cater to people who want just that (albeit with 5 star luxury):

This is on a private island in Fiji.  Horrible looking isn't it.  No traffic jams, no high-rise condo units.......and look at all those terrible trees.  There is almost no development that I can see.  It must be going "downhill."  Maybe if they would just come and take a look at Pattaya-Jomtien they could learn something about development that is going uphill.

9 hours ago, wpcoe said:

Isn't Subway the first American food franchise in Jomtien since KFC?  I think Subway will do fairly well in that location.  The place might even be a bit small (a single-width shophouse?) if business catches on.

I think you are correct.  Since the demise of KFC (around 2003-4?), nobody has attempted to set up a well-established American food franchise in Jomtien.  Fortunately, we do have Pastrami on Rye, which serves great American sandwiches and pizza.  I hope Subway makes it in Jomtien.  If it does, maybe we will eventually see Wendy's or Taco Bell.  Both Wendy's and Taco Bell are already in the Philippines.

Forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this.  I just saw a sign that suggests Subway is coming to Jomtien.  If you are travelling from the beach, it is about 200 yards past the arch on the right side:

27 minutes ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

I don't know how widely it's been reported but Pattaya will be getting it's own Asiatique Mall (like the riverfront one in Bangkok) when the Montien Hotel lease is up soon. I'd say this is another up-hill move; and I expect additional artisanal chocolate shops.

 

This, and the new Terminal 21 will really put the bee in some bonnets around here  

Given that we have all been indoctrinated since childhood to embrace the "cancer cell concept" that "all growth is good" (the mainstream media constantly promotes this view) it is not surprising that so many posters are apparently unable to understand that growth does not always have a positive impact on quality of life.  If growth has a negative impact on quality of life, it is not "uphill."   Nobody is totally against growth, especially if it improves quality of life.  At present, we have too many condos, hotels, massage parlours, restaurants and bars.   I doubt that we need another mall.  Central Festival Mall is great. 

17 minutes ago, JSixpack said:

 

 

Points you've already made with added air. Your delicate aesthetic sensibilities and deep concern for building owners have touched our hearts several times already. How much mileage you gonna try to get out of them? Have you gotten over your discomfiture with the potholes yet?

 

Extreme insecurity is not something most people consider a positive human trait.  It does not surprise me that you refused to let the OP close out this thread with his valid opinion.

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

 

...or around the time they stopped using 'sleepy little fishing village' and 'discovered by American servicemen on R&R from Vietnam' epithets then?

 

Funnily enough, it coincides with when I came back to Pattaya after a 12-year hiatus. After a few months, it dawned on me that the bars were mostly full of older single guys who were benefiting from the wide choice of ED medications. I reckon Pfizer and the rest are the real cause of Pattaya's fall from grace.

I totally disagree with what you just said.  Are we even talking about the same place?  I am talking about Pattaya-Jomtien.  It was not a sleeping fishing village in 2003-2004.  It was a great time to be in Pattaya-Jomtien.  There was just enough development to make the quality of life high. 

Perhaps I should elaborate a bit.  In my opinion, the "downhill" started around 2003-2004.  Having said that, let me add that economic growth can result in a "downhill condition."  Economic growth that is inhumane, inequitable and environmentally unsound often leads to a decline in quality of life, and thus a downhill situation.  Unless quality of life is considered, economic growth is a rather meaningless metric.    Whether the quality of life, which has resulted from economic growth, is taking the majority of us down or up is very subjective.  To some, this is Paradise; to others, it is Hell.  And most are somewhere in between these two extremes.  If you believe--like cancer cells-- that all growth is good, then you no doubt missed my point.

1 hour ago, Stray said:

I understand the point several of you are making that the growth of Pattaya is not necessarily a good thing, particularly in an unplanned way.  However, the OP stated that Pattaya was going downhill because it was not growing.  The person wrote that, many, many projects were being abandoned, bars and shops were being closed, tourist numbers were in decline etc.

 

Many of these items have been discussed and several incorrect observations were corrected (at least, in the mind of this poster).

 

As this thread evolves it seems the tone, according to some, is that Pattaya is going downhill due to it's expansion, not contraction.  I don't think the OP expected that.

 

If nothing else, Pattaya appears to bring out some passionate views, both for and against.  That does seem unique to the area.  While people in other towns and cities have their likes and dislikes of where they live, work, relax and play, the level of attack and defence on those places does not seem to reach the levels as the mention of 'Pattaya' does.

 

There are even posters, who claim to dislike Pattaya, that get upset when they think you are being negative about the place.  Dare I say that many feel a great pride for Pattaya, regardless of their view?

 

As always, it's been an interesting topic to see unfold.

It is possible that the unrestrained growth of the recent past has harmed the quality of life, which is now showing up in the form of business closures and the desire of many expats to "jump ship."   It is clear that loads of people are coming here every weekend, mostly from Bangkok, and Chinese tourists are still coming here, along with a fewer number of Russians.  Are they spending enough money to keep the economy afloat?  Maybe in some sectors, but I get the impression that people are struggling financially, even after the "growth."  Something is wrong.  But not everything is wrong.  There are solutions, but that is for another thread.

1 hour ago, Gary A said:

My main gripe about Pattaya is the horrible traffic. BUT wait, where is the horrible traffic coming from? It doesn't look like all the traffic is outbound. If Pattaya were so bad, wouldn't it be shrinking instead of growing? I wouldn't live there because of the noise and congestion. Fortunately there is an abundance of baht buses. If more people would leave their cars at home and take the baht buses, traffic would be more tolerable. When I first bought my condo in Jomtien, Soi Chaiyapruk had very little traffic. Now that road is built up end to end and the traffic is horrible. You bashers should think about why the Pattaya area is growing so fast.

Cancer cells also grow.  Is that a good thing?  One assumption we need to all get over is that "all growth is good, and more is always better."  Going downhill is not simply a reflection of growth.  It also relates to quality of life.  There comes a point when growth has a negative impact on the quality of life.  I think Pattaya-Jomtien passed that point long ago.

21 hours ago, londoedan said:

There was interesting input on this topic included in Stickmans weekly yesterday.

 

He doesn't reckon that Pattaya is going, or has gone, downhill; but he does see a lot of changes happening.

Yes, a lot of changes are happening and many point to a reality:  Pattaya-Jomtien is going downhill fast.  It is astonishing how much effort a certain poster (not you Londoendan) is exerting to put lipstick on an obvious pig, while insulting every person who disgrees with him.  Most, not all, of the people I have been talking with (restaurant owners, people heavily invested in real estate, expats in general) say that it "has never been this bad."  Many want to sell their condo or business and get out of here. 

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Same Same, but different. I have lived Phuket (Patong and Kamala), BKK (Sukumvit and Samut Sahkon), Chon Buri (Bang Saen and now live Jomtien).

Pattaya is the same as most other places in Thailand. Obviously not the same as a village in issan, but no great difference to BKK Or Phuket.

 

The girly bar strip and surrounding area is the same wherever one exists, BKK, Bangla, Pattaya. If thats were you live and spend time. (not exclusive to Pattaya)

 

Traffic is the same in any populated area, Although BKK would be the worst. (not exclusive to Pattaya)

 

New buildings going up and old ones shutting down all over Thailand. (not exclusive to Pattaya)

 

Love Pattaya or hate it, its not much different to other populated areas in Thailand.

 

I am opening a suitcase shop in Pattaya, judging by the amount of people packing up and leaving, I should clean up.

 

Im just not sure were the Utopian Thailand is that everyone is moving to.

I have lived all over Thailand and must disagree (somewhat) with what you said about Pattaya not being much different than other populated areas in Thailand.  Pattaya (really Pattaya-Jomtien) is unique in its devotion to a certain industry that involves men, women, bars, alcohol, etc.  Unlike most of Thailand, you have to work very hard to escape that "industry," the oldest industry in the world, some would argue.  In addition, the worst slice of humanity--both Thais and farangs--have migrated to Pattaya-Jomtien.  You simply do not see them in such large numbers outside of Pattaya-Jomtien (e.g. in Bangkok although there are zoned areas where you see some of them).  Further, security is  far better in others areas of Thailand (the far south excluded).  And the noise pollution in Pattaya-Jomtien (irgnored by the local police) is way beyond anything you will find in most other places in Thailand.  Having said that, there are positive elements about the place.  The Thais have not yet found a way to destroy the ocean and stop the seabreeze, but are no doubt working on it   One of the best malls in the world is right here: Central Festival Mall.  Medical care in the region is good and not every person who lives here is a slime-ball psycho.  Most of the people that I know who have left made the decision to leave Thailand altogether (not saying where they went to).  Others who want to move are trying to find another country to move to, which is problematic given the state of the world at present.  I do know a few who have moved to other cities in Thailand, but I am not about to mention where as they will become the next places that will be ruined by growth, growth and more growth. 

3 hours ago, camble said:

Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded.

It certainly gets overcrowded on the weekends with the influx of Bangkonians.  Perhaps a good proxy measure on whether it is going downhill is the volume of business closures, which seems to have increased substantially.  As I stated in another post, I have many acquaintances who have left or are planning to do so.  No, they are not poor (far from it).  Why are they leaving?  Because they see the place as "going downhill." 

10 minutes ago, Brer Fox said:

What hope Thailand if this is an example of the next generation.

Unfortunately, this is the "next generation," which is "generation zero" because they have zero to offer Thailand or anybody else. The education system needs to change.  Here is a one-word suggestion for those who would like to change the education system:  Singapore.

The previous post makes it appear that Bender liked JSIXpacks' post.  I think bender was talking about my post.  Yes?  No?