KhunHeineken

Been a long time since I was here for any length of time on tourist visas, but where do you get "60 day visa exempts (x4)" from? The 60 days visa exempt. I think can be extended for 1 month for 2000 baht, but don't quote me on this. That's 90 days per entry on a 60 visas exempt, if you want it. I was under the impression you would do, basically, 6 months consecutive in Australia and 6 months consecutive in Thailand. I gather this is not correct. Just be aware, Thai tax residency is the calendar year, and if / when the proposed changes pass in Australia, for Australian tax residency it's our financial year.

And Edward Snowdon.

Smart move. Technically I'm still living in my house. I'm just on a long holiday, a very long holiday. Of course, I have every "intention" of returning to my "domicile" in Australia as far as the ATO is concerned, but that's for the other thread.

It's a little difficult to create the false appearance if you return home with no money for bond and lease on a small unit, and to buy a car and register it, then go renew your drivers license, then get an electricity bill in your name etc etc etc etc. Guys go home and don't do any of this, like the guy Nemises knows. To date, many have been getting away with leading a somewhat nomadic life in Australia for the 2 years., however, I can see the day when they tighten up on portability, but that's for another thread if / when it happens.

Interesting post, and I agree, but the question begs, why would someone burn all their bridges in Australia, only to return home and to live like a pauper for 2 years? I'll always keep a small property as a base in Australia, always. It will not just be for taxation purposes. I may have to return for family reasons, medical reasons, who knows, but I will always have accommodation to return to in my country of birth and citizenship. Yes, there are fees and taxes to pay, but that's the price you pay to have an exit strategy from Thailand.

I hope for his relative's sake he's not claiming rent assistance. There relative might be in for a surprise at tax time.

I agree. Why give yourself any tax grief when you don't have to? Why 4 airfares to and from Australia per year? My count is 2 airfares, return and depart from Australia for your 186 days to remain a resident for taxation purposes, and the last I heard, you can still get a tourist visa in an embassy / consulate in a neighboring country like Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia etc. Why not just do a short flight to one of these and get a new tourist visa? Malaysia being the easiest, as it is a visa exemption stamp, but you may wish to check out some tourist things in the other countries. Also, I see there is now the new 60 day visa exemption which I think can also be extended by 1 month. I haven't looked into it, so I am not sure, but I encourage you to check it out. You may not need to even lodge your passport and money at an embassy / consulate for your 178 days in Thailand.

I purposely didn't answer it so the haters had nothing to troll me about, and also because you mentioned you were doing the 183 days inside Australia, so it's irrelevant. I simply gave you the debate as it stands, and the links showing the proposed changes, tax brackets, DTA, advice from ATO staff etc etc and let you decide where you stand on it all.

Why? They don't know where you are calling from. Why would they ask anyway? Now, an official form, either in paper, or inside your internet banking, with fine print saying it's an offense to make a false statement, that's a different thing.

I'm sure he was real happy to be there.

One for the Aussies. At the time, Australia's richest man, Kerry Packer, paid something like, $1 tax. They held a senate inquiry about it and he gave it to them with both barrels. Famous and funny words, and true of every government around the world, even in 2024. If you are not Australian, it only goes for 43 seconds. Check it out. He sums up the sentiment of every tax payer around the world.

I have no problem debating it, if they can post a link that counters the information in any link I may post. It happens occasionally, and then you have research more for the facts / truth, but most of the time they don't provide any links to support their argument. It goes to credibility.

I found this. DrPhibes and DrPhelps is similar. Are we among youtube greatness on this thread?

Have you weighed up the cost against residing in Australia 186 days, versus a possible tax liability to Australia and / or Thailand, under the current laws, and the proposed new laws in both Australia and Thailand, in their worst case scenario?

Yet......................... https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68823399 "The International Monetary Fund (IMF) expects Russia to grow 3.2% this year, significantly more than the UK, France and Germany."

Must be paid at the time of filing. Is that correct? If so, is that the same for those who have millions of baht tax liability?

Many of which, will be intercepted mid flight, over the ocean. So, in years to come, decades after the war, people holidaying in Thailand can go to a seafood restaurant and eat a 3 headed fish.

Just on this point, out of curiosity, I have a question for any member who has had to pay tax in Thailand before, for whatever reason. From the time you are given your tax bill, how long do you have to pay it?

What you describe already exists in the US. https://www.goldback.com https://www.govmint.com/gold/goldbacks#:~:text=Where Are Goldbacks Accepted%3F,are considered voluntary local currency. "The Goldback is designed to be a local currency within certain regions where a series exists, that being Utah, Nevada, New Hampshire, Wyoming, and now South Dakota. They are considered voluntary local currency."

Your questions require complex and debatable answers. There's pages and pages, over months and months, with link after link about the current situation, and the proposed changes. Since you are late to the party, I'll try to summarize it for you, with links, and also put forward conflicting views. I will not touch on the Thai taxes, that's in another forum. First, we start with the basics. Here's the resident of Australia for tax purposes tax brackets. https://www.ato.gov.au/tax-rates-and-codes/tax-rates-australian-residents Resident tax rates 2024–25 Taxable income Tax on this income 0 – $18,200 Nil $18,201 – $45,000 16c for each $1 over $18,200 $45,001 – $135,000 $4,288 plus 30c for each $1 over $45,000 $135,001 – $190,000 $31,288 plus 37c for each $1 over $135,000 $190,001 and over $51,638 plus 45c for each $1 over $190,000 You will see the tax free threshold. The pension, with some supplements, is over the tax free threshold, but with some concessions, no tax is paid. Here are the non resident of Australia tax rates. https://www.ato.gov.au/tax-rates-and-codes/tax-rates-foreign-residents Foreign resident tax rates 2024–25 Taxable income Tax on this income 0 – $135,000 30c for each $1 $135,001 – $190,000 $40,500 plus 37c for each $1 over $135,000 $190,001 and over $60,850 plus 45c for each $1 over $190,000 Of interest to me is, it has actually changed a little. In any case, the point being, you can see there is no tax free threshold. That's 30% from $0. Now, currently, myself, and some friends, and I suggest many other Aussies, have enjoyed living in Thailand, and other countries, and not paid one cent in non resident tax. That's because the current 90 year old tax laws around residency in Australia are based on where you are "domiciled." Dictionary meaning of domicile. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domicile law : a person's fixed, permanent, and principal home for legal purposes I live in Thailand, but I have maintained a "domicile" in Australia, as well as business, family, and community ties. These make it difficult for the ATO to prove I have no "intention" of returning to Australia to reside. Others, who have sold up everything in Australia, moved all their money to Thailand, and not maintained any community ties, would not be able to argue the same point. However, currently, the ATO has no real way to differentiate between the two, so no "Dear John" letters from the ATO over the years, to any of us. These are the changes to the current 90 year laws that the previous Liberal government put forward, and Labor hasn't binned them. https://treasury.gov.au/consultation/c2023-205344#:~:text=This measure was announced by,be an Australian tax resident. "Under the Board’s proposed model, the primary test will be a simple ‘bright line’ test — a person who is physically present in Australia for 183 days or more in any income year will be an Australian tax resident. Individuals who do not meet the primary test will be subject to secondary tests that depend on a combination of physical presence and measurable, objective criteria." The changes state if you are inside Australia for 183 days you are a tax resident, but that also means if you are outside of Australia for 6 months, which is most expats, you will be deemed a non resident for tax purposes. Here's the changes simplified by a random law firm. https://hlb.com.au/tax-residency-changes-for-individuals/ If you are inside Australia for more than 45 days, but less than 183 days, there are some secondary tests that are not too difficult to meet, but some may have some difficultly meeting them. Also, Labor has hinted at changing the 45 days to possibly 60, maybe 90. You will see that no where in the proposed changes does it mention exemptions, tax free thresholds, means testing etc. As you can see, rather than 90 year old laws based on maintaining a "domicile" and having an "intention" is going to be replace by a physical presence and time based model, similar to many other countries. So, the main points of debate are: Will immigration inform the ATO about the Australian citizens who have been outside of Australia for more than 183 days? Will the ATO then inform Centerlink? Will Centerlink treat pensions / pensioners as non residents? First of all, the pension is deemed an income. https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/income-deductions-offsets-and-records/income-you-must-declare/government-payments-and-allowances "Australian Government payments, pensions and allowances are income amounts that you receive from a government agency." Secondly, the pension is taxable. "You must include taxable Australian Government pensions, payments and allowances in your tax return. Taxable government payments, pensions and allowances include: age pension." This is the source of the debate. Basically, the pension is an income, the pension is taxable, you are a non resident for tax purposes once you are outside of Australia for 183 days, there is no tax free threshold in the non resident tax brackets, there are no exemptions for pensions in the proposed changes. I added all these together and posted about it and the debate exploded. Then comes the Double Tax Agreement between Australia and Thailand. (DTA) A DTA ensures the same money doesn't get taxed twice. The DTA has many articles, but Articles 18 and 19 deal with pensions. Here they are. Article 18 Pensions and annuities 1. Subject to the provisions of Article 19, pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States shall be taxable only in that State. 2. The term "annuity" means a stated sum payable periodically at stated times during life or during a specified or ascertainable period of time under an obligation to make the payments in return for adequate and full consideration in money or money's worth. Article 19 Government service 1. Remuneration (other than a pension) paid by one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision of that State or a local authority of that State to any individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of governmental functions shall be taxable only in that State. However, such remuneration shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the services are rendered in that other State and the recipient is a resident of that other State who: (a) is a citizen or national of that other State; or (b) did not become a resident of that other State solely for the purpose of performing the services. 2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of governmental functions to one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision of that State or a local authority of that State shall be taxable only in that State. Such pension shall, however, be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the recipient is a resident of, and a citizen or national of, that other State. 3. The provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2 shall not apply to remuneration or a pension in respect of services rendered in connection with any trade or business carried on by one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision of one of the States or a local authority of one of the States. In such a case, the provisions of Article 15, 16 or 18, as the case may be shall apply. Many saw the first line in Article 18 and declared, as a retired expat pensioner living in Thailand, they will not be taxed. (remember, this debate arose prior to Thai's announcing their taxi/s) You will see that Article 18 relies on the provisions of Article 19. I wanted more information on these provisions, so thought more research was needed, and I still stand by that. The DTA Australia has with Thailand came into force in 1989. It's 35 years old. Think, pre mobile phone, pre internet, pre budget airlines etc etc. Australia is expanding and updating it's DTA's with other countries. Just one random article about it. You can see there must be some truth to it because of the new DTA with Iceland. https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/australia/individual/foreign-tax-relief-and-tax-treaties "The Australian government plans to enter into new and updated tax treaties in the coming years. The relatively recently signed treaty with Iceland has entered into force to apply from as early as 1 January 2024. A new treaty with Portugal was signed on 30 November 2023 (yet to enter into force)." This was also of interest. "Australia has also entered into bilateral agreements with a number of countries in relation to the exchange of information in relation to taxes." Could Thailand be one of the countries exchanging "information?" Who knows, but I would say probably yes. After reading Australia was updating its DTA's with countries, I looked for a more updated DTA Australia has, and found the DTA with Germany. I did this to maybe gauge what a newer DTA with Thailand might look like. The DTA with Germany is dated 2016. Here it is. Article 17 deals with pensions. https://treasury.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-03/GermanyDTA.pdf " Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2, benefits paid under the social security legislation of a Contracting State may also be taxed in that State but the tax so charged shall not exceed 15 per cent of the gross amount of the benefit. However, this paragraph shall not apply if the benefits were first paid before 1 January 2017" Make of this what you will. During the debate, there was conflicting information coming out of the ATO. In this one, an ATO staff member says non resident tax will have to be paid on a pension. https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s0000002ngF/p00172380 "As a foreign resident for tax purposes, you will pay income tax according to foreign resident rates. This means for all income under $180k, you'll pay 32.5c per dollar. You would only report and pay tax on your Australian-sourced income to us. You'll likely be eligible for the seniors and pensioners tax offset (SAPTO) though, meaning you'll get a tax offset to help counter the tax payable. You don't have to be a resident for tax purposes to receive this." And this one. https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s000000O2y4/p00197245 "As a non-resident for tax purposes, we'll only tax you on the income you receive from Australia sources such as interest and your pension." A member posted a screenshot, rather than a link, so I can't post it here, but it was on the 4th February in this thread. The ATO staff member was Jim Quinn. He stated the DTA mean no tax payable. Check it out. So, you have some ATO staff saying tax is payable, and another ATO staff member saying it's not payable. So, that's the summary. I have shown the information in which I have based my opinions, comments, statements, calculations, predictions etc on. You can decide for yourself where you currently stand with the ATO, and where you may stand if / when the proposed changes are passed. I wouldn't like it, but I could do 45 days in Australia, but 90 days a year would be a real PITA. I can easily meet the factor tests. If you are happy to do more than the 183 days per years in Australia, then you have nothing to worry about. Just be sure to do 186 days in Australia so you don't go over 180 days in Thailand, and watch out for the leap years. After you have informed yourself of the above, you can then deal with Thailand's new tax/s, but only if you are going to do more than 180 days inside Thailand. The ground is shifting under the feet of expats, and the tax man is catch up with globalization. Good Luck with it.

Unless you trade small pieces of the gold for goods and services, how does it get you around the tax man?

Nuclear too messy. Biological and cyber will be the weapons of choice. A perfected airborne virus that kills in 48 hours out of a lab, and the country that develops it will have the vaccine. Cyber attack to stop the flow of information inside enemy territories that it's happening, while it's happening, with all communication shut down. The war will be over in a few weeks. The army of the enemy can not even gather to fight. Picture Hiroshima, but with out the destruction, only the death. We are a wonderful species.

Did I miss one?

I think the member meant "online account" and not internet banking.

Can you clarify? Do you just want a bank account, or a bank account and to move from a 30 day visa exemption stamp to a retirement visa? Most agents offer both services, but to go from a 30 visa exemption stamp to a retirement visa, in country, does cost a bit.