jpinx

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Reunification would make the border issue a moot point. The fact is that passport control and customs into the north could very well be the reality and something the people on both sides will have to come to terms with.

 

Absolutely - but it's no big deal.  The locals had it all before, and cars had triptiques and so on..  everything is possible to mitigate the inconvenience of the security

1 minute ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

They could revive Hadrian's Wall

That would mean moving the border

17 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The consequences of brexit can be dismissed and labeled as anything that comes to mind, but sooner or later reality will kick in.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-ireland-republic-northern-irish-border-checkpoints-hard-louth-cvan-leitrim-a7584211.html

Hard borders may well have to be considered, but there are many degrees of "hard".  The Irish appear to be on shaky ground these days over some internal matters, so expect the politicians to be grasping at anything to boost their profile and enhance their cause.  Back in the day, the Irish border was supposedly "hard" but there were systems for locals to be virtually unaffected, in the same way nowadays where a farmers land might be in 2 countries.  The Border issue is by no means the most likely to trip up the negotiations, there are far bigger issues to overcome. 

What is also interesting is the possibility of Scotland going for independence and joining the EU, only to find itself having to control an EU border.  The cases are similar and the same policies would probably apply.

Einstein's supposed quote about the intelligence of a fish is most appropriate.  But within it's realm, the cuttlefish is extremely clever.

To the topic....  It's nice to see Junckers getting a taste of his own medicine.  Complaining about the countries being "pushed around" by the mighty USA .. ...  wasn't that exactly what Junckers was trying to do to UK over Brexit.?    Fortunately he won't be around for the finale of the brexit negotiations, nor will Schultz.  It'll be interesting to see the EU team playing musical chairs in the middles of the talks, at the same time trying not to lose the elections in various member countries.

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I suspect only a minority of students would be interested enough to stay outside school hours for debating programmes rather than watching TV/their 'phones - but perhaps it would be a start.

 

The main problem (IMO) is that the main parties have been so similar politically for a few decades now (even though they pretend otherwise), so the 'end result' is the same regardless of the party elected.  In view of this, its hardly suprising that youngsters have lost interest in politics.

 

Cameron made 'a mistake' (politically) by actually carrying out his promise of a referendum, and it bit politicians in the bum as it gave voters a genuine chance to change things .

The other aspect of life is that UK has actually not got that much control over it's own fate.  The only changes that a youngster might have noticed have been caused by outside influences - 1940's, 1970&'80's, and 1990, so why would they bother with UK politics unless they are independent.

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/2647/economics/history-of-inflation-in-uk/

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Yes. A filtering organism. Think of me as a mollusc:

 

 

 

....but can you do the waves of coloured lights under your skin? 

6 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

A lot of this stuff is from the Bloomberg Brexit feed on Twitter.

Good - I'm glad we have you to filter in the interesting bits and pieces

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Euro Pacts:

 

Nice find    Nice to see you contribute something useful    I'll be happy to share that with my fellow savages

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

The voting age in the UK was lowered to 18 by Harold Wilson's government in The Representation of the Peoples Act 1969. This was the 6th time that suffrage had been extended.

 

Why? For the same reasons suffrage had been extended previously; to allow all adults to vote regardless of their age, gender or social class. Surely you don't want a return to Rotten Boroughs?

 

History of voting in the UK

 

Campaigns in the USA to lower the voting age to 18 began during WWII and intensified during the Vietnam war; using the slogan "Old enough to fight, old enough to vote!" A sentiment I have much sympathy with.

 

There have been recent campaigns to lower the UK age to 16, as was done in Scotland for the independence referendum and for Scottish elections; but not for UK general elections as that is a matter for the UK Parliament. My question is whether at 16 people are mature enough?

 

Of course, being able to vote does not mean someone will.

Same here; my daughter is 26. I used to put her on the form when she lived at home and was old enough, but she never voted.

 

Since she moved away from home she has never registered to vote and has no desire to do so. Whenever I ask her why, she simply says she can't be bothered!

 

 

....and there you have it -- they can't be bothered!  You have my sympathy 7x7 -- it must be so frustrating, but us oldies need to somehow come up with a formula that actually will make voting interesting enough -- or do we go the Australian route and make it compulsory?

16 minutes ago, sandyf said:

There is certainly something not right but I am not sure that bored with politics would be the right way to put it, to be bored with politics they would have had to have seen some politics in the first place.

Personally I think they are brought up now with too many distractions(modern technology?) around them which to a certain extent is delaying full adult maturity. To me it seems that they need to be a bit older before they start to appreciate the bigger picture. I wouldn't disagree that the education system should be used in some way to try and stimulate an interest  in politics and world affairs.

Although my son only married last year, he and his wife have had their house for over 3 years now and I often stay with them when back in the UK. They don't spend many evenings at home, my son does night classes for financial exams and he plays in a pop group. They both work and when they are at home they never watch the news or a current affairs programme, they spend the evening either clicking a way on mobile phones or watching some mindless programme from Sky TV. It is fairly obvious why they have little idea of what is happening in the outside world but the real worry is if that is typical of his age group is the problem going to get worse as they move from one generation to the next.

There is no incentive for people like Sandy's family to get involved with politics.  My daughters are both the same - little interest and less inclination to actually do anything about the causes that affect them, because "What difference would it make?"   Roll out the schools debating programmes, chaired by favourite teachers so that kids will go rather than watching TV

59 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

My daughter (who is at uni in the UK) voted remain because all her friends did, and they were worried about being obstructed from travelling around Europe in their upcoming gap years if we voted out, according to her.

Which neatly highlights the question of voting age -- it was 21 a while ago.  Who let the teenagers in, and why?

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Many claim that the leave voters knew exactly what they were doing but its not quite true. My son is 25 and like many of the younger generation has little interest in anything political. He and his wife voted to leave because her mother said so. It's my own fault really, like a good parent I always advised him to stay on good terms with the mother in law.

That rings very true.  So many young voters are totally bored with politicis, and who can blame them?  They only see argumentative, grasping politicians.  The disconnect is huge and is something else the education system needs to address.  Start by educating the current crop of idiots in charge.  So much of perceived education is actually just a very good memory.  IQ tests are  a classic example of how skewed the view of intelligence has become.  What was it Einstein said about the fish?

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

Good advice on the MiL Sandy

55 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I wasn't "blaming" the EU. I was stating that the EU can't help us with these problems, and we need to focus inward, rather than outward, for a while.

 

And if you think other countries don't have many of the same problems as us, you must be wearing some very tinted sunglasses on your travels around Europe. Try talking to any Polish people you might know about the problems of drug taking and anti-social behaviour by kids in Poland right down to pre-teen level. Spain has a huge drugs problem, with the associated crime. The Scandi countries are rife with hooliganism and gangsterism. I could go on.

There is one solution - make the parents responsible for the deeds of their kids.  If a kid commits some vandalism, get the parents to court and let them lose a lot of face and a bit of community service.  Courts are so PC they won't exact an effective penalty and even if they do and it is ignored - there is no serious followup.  The parents are a very large part of the problem, not instilling decent values, so let them be punished. 

This issue is not about money at all.  There are plenty of mal-adjusted public school attendees.  Back to Basics doesn't seem to have worked - it's been tried a few times but the basics are so badly tainted now it's going to need something more than that.  One of the greatest issues is the example given by the people that matter in society.   The conduct of the people who are supposed to be leading UK's society is nothing short of abysmal. 

Just now, SheungWan said:

Maybe just half a notch above happy-clappy.

That attitude is part of the problem.  You need "attitude re-adjustment"

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It's not just the UK; USA also under performs.

 

Nothing to do with EU

 

More to do with our own, home grown, ideas

 

Thai education is much worse mind you.

 

Did you ever look at that Michael Moore documentary I was going on about? Finland seem to be doing well.

 

Education is absolutely key. Difficult to fix when there is such gross inequality though.

 

 

Education might well be key -- but the key is no use if there's no keyhole.  Family standards are what inspire parents to send their kids to school with a positive attitude.  Without that most fundamental foundation, a culture will not progress.

I just posted something about that..  just my take on it.  The thing that seems to be crippling UK's progress is social education and simple family standards..  When you look at the level of irresponsible behaviour in uk now it would make anyone's granny spin in her grave.  It's no better in USA, Thailand etc, but UK should and can be head and shoulders above where they are now.  Enough on that - most people recognise the issue, from their perspective, but meantime we need to turbo-charge the brexit team so that UK comes out with a good deal, happy neighbours  in Europe,  and a positive outlook for the future.

7 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

132 pages and 3,296 postings for this topic.

Maybe time to close topic and start an updated one?

Not at all - - there are so many threads on Brexit I stopped following the rest - I only see posting on them if it comes up in my "latest postings". 

20 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Having worked in a school in a poor area (although, thankfully not as a teacher!), I think I understand why so many under-privileged children continue in the same way.  Their parents(s) blame anyone/everyone else when their child behaves extremely badly (an under-statement) and schools find it almost impossible to get rid of the 'disruptive' children (another under-statement).

 

These appalling children are only following their parents' example in most cases and, lacking any discipline other than when the parent hits them because they've annoyed the parent.... they continue the same pattern .

 

Fortunately this true 'underclass' is a tiny minority as most parents want their children to do as well as possible.

 

Can't begin to number the 'stories' I have to support this POV.....

 

Entirely off topic though and, back on topic - we can only have an opinion as to how the UK will fare in negotiations with the EU.  At the moment, the EU is struggling with not only the loss of one of its few paying members - but other EU countries showing signs of going the same way, not to mention the precarious financial position of a few member countries.

Not offtopic at all -- it is a fundamental for the UK to sort out education, both social and academic.  Family standards in many places are really falling fast, producing the types of kids who do not take well to school, and schools have become so PC as to make teaching almost impossible.  Without education people become a burden on a society, not an asset.  Hopefully the UK generally will get it's priorities right and stop wasting money on tricks like the EU and funnel it into long-term, well thought out education schemes.  There is no quick fix. The parents must be sommitted to this as well. 

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Something positive

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38957943?client=safari

 

Feeling brighter now?

That I can relate to.  I had the privilege of filming a double-headed steam train going from York to Auchterarder back in the 1980's.  What a magnificent thing.  As a kid we lived very close to the railways and I always remember the incredibly slow choo.........choo....... sound of the night good trains going up the incline,  and sticking your head out of the window always got you covered in smuts.    Happy days.....

Given the popularity of steam trains it is certainly something that could be promoted much more.  The West Highland Line has a steam train aimed at tourists, and it is great to see it wending it's way through the glens.   UK has magnificent attributes in the historic stations in lovely cities like York and would easily be able to boost UK's profile if they were used better.  Getting out of the EU is a great opportunity for UK to piggy-back the UK's international profile on the back of the general publicity about Brexit.  Certainly tourism is way up because of the cheaper pound and that is a good starting point.

11 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Here wo go again. It's groundhog day with some posters. Or is it called trolling?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/05/chief-economist-of-bank-of-england-admits-errors

 

"the worst is yet to come"

 

Yes.....for the EU. Not the UK. As confirmed by major business leaders such as Joe Kaeser, who put his money where his mouth is when announcing it.

It's groundhog day.  Same posters ask the same question multiple times and if there's a punctuation difference between your answers they will pounce on it like a vicious kitten.  I refer all repeat questions (that I recognise) back to the poster and tell them to do their own <deleted>' legwork.  Venn Diagrams <deleted>?  They'll be wanting a colouring-in book of maps of the EU next.   How about some NEW news.  What's the state of play on the court action supposedly going through dublin courts?  Even the UK press are struggling to come up with new news on brexit. 

18 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Here's some interesting "hard facts"..

.

• A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.

• Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.

• A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.

• White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.

• The AB social group (broadly speaking, professionals and managers) were the only social group among whom a majority voted to remain (57%). C1s divided fairly evenly; nearly two thirds of C2DEs (64%) voted to leave the EU.

More from here....  http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

 

The fruitgum analysis is a bit too fruity

It's very interesting that they do not make any analysis of the averaged education levels achieved across the time-span of the voters ages which were used in their analysis.

Degree results obtained by The Sunday Telegraph show six out of 10 students were handed either a first or an upper second in 2010, compared with just one in three graduates in 1970.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8235115/Dumbing-down-of-university-grades-revealed.html

...feed that into your analysis 

59 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

No need for 'euphemisms' - its easy enough to refer to a majority of the voters with whom you disagree as disadvantaged and poor (and more relevant IMO).  Edit - as per the article you quoted...

 

Here's some interesting "hard facts"..

.

• A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.

• Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.

• A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.

• White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.

• The AB social group (broadly speaking, professionals and managers) were the only social group among whom a majority voted to remain (57%). C1s divided fairly evenly; nearly two thirds of C2DEs (64%) voted to leave the EU.

More from here....  http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

The fruitgum analysis is a bit too fruity

It's very interesting that they do not make any analysis of the averaged education levels achieved across the time-span of the voters ages which were used in their analysis.

1 minute ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Ah yes, the "real world", that giveaway phrase that means "I'm patronising you"

Quoted out of context.  It's those intelligent numpties who are trying to patronise those they perceive as being of lesser education and capability.