DumFarang

Not so long ago, I quizzed a newly qualified Thai lady barrister, married to a friend of mine, if she would ever consider taking a bribe.

Without hesitation, she replied "yes, if I thought it would help my family".

This really depressed me. If the younger generation of "well educated" Thais are just as corrupt as their elders there is no hope....

"Without hesitation..." Wow. Her answer might as well have been, "of course!" Followed by loud cackling.

Sorry, I don't understand your point. Please explain.

My point, as you clearly don't get it is thyat even the young well educated Thais have an instant sense of right and wrong this is rather sad. Don't you agree?

I don't understand what you don't understand. My post echos your dismay. The corruption is a shameful thing indeed.

It's also worth noting that corruption and bribing etc., in general, is more common in poorer places around the world because it serves as another means of making money where not enough exist.

I'm from the southern part of the U.S. and, while less common now, it has historically been poorer than other regions of the country and has always had more corruption akin to what is seen so commonly in Thailand. Louisiana is still quite a poor state and the corruption is unbelievable for the average American to fathom when compared to most of the rest of the country. New Orleans can be just as much of a confusing place as anywhere I've ever been in SEA. Just like here it's a place containing the haves and have nots. People from more affluent places around the world have the luxury of looking down on it, but for many people who aren't above some form of corruption their title for it is "getting by."

I read a good article a few years ago by a psychologist who looked at the behavior of people in road rage incidents. He said that many people who are involved in a traffic dispute revert to the emotional maturity of a two year old. If you have ever watched a two year old throw a tantrum - extreme over-reaction, throwing things, screaming etc. - I think the comparison is somewhat accurate. Of course a two year old cannot do any real damage. Unfortunately, in this case we had a couple of two year olds in adult bodies, so damage was done, and there was no parent there to provide control and discipline.

Yeah, it is just the most peculiar thing when you try to reason it out logically. Can you imagine if the same thing happened when people are walking in a city and one person stepped in front of another and this type of maniacal rage incident occurred? We're all guilty. I've gotten quite angry while driving as well. The only thing I can even begin to attribute it too is that the elevated threat of danger just triggers an explosion. I guess sometimes we feel like somebody cut us off and we could have died. Well documented rage incident ensues. Madness.

The next time someone compares corruption in Thailand vs other countries, ask them if the teachers must pay a fee for their promotion (pay increase) to go thru?

How many competitor prices are the same for the same product in other countries vs Thailand? Plus how many competitors do you have for the same product?

The Thai public are exposed to corruption/tea money payments from the time they start preschool and it continues thru some allotted time after death. How do you convince them it is wrong, when virtually every aspect of getting what you need/want depends on it? To compare to the majority of the countries of the world, that we TV members come from or have lived, does not make sense, in my opinion.

It's not quite that bad, although it's true that it's just incorporated into their lives. I wouldn't go as far as to say everything they need/want depends on it, but it's prevalent there can be no doubt. I've only directly seen a Thai bribing another twice (as in handing the money over). The first was my brother in law getting pulled over for speeding and just handing the policeman money and we were on our way again. The second was a bigger deal, and I'm not even exactly sure what it was over, but it was one of those meetings where there's a normal Thai guy and a few other "official" looking ones. I know it was greatly in the Thai guy's interests to keep selling what he was selling at the time, and I don't know if he was stepping on some toes by doing so. But, I saw the money change hands, and it was pretty obvious.

Anyway, I own a business here, and I've never bribed anyone, and if my wife ever bribed anyone she didn't tell me, so I'm pretty sure it never happened because I would have to hear about it as part of the saga of her difficult life which is regularly recited to me. Which reminds me, bribes or no bribes, Thais love a good complaining session.

Yes people are very short sighted here. It a "what's in it for me" attitude that pervades this country and will keep it destined to always be a third world country.

They are not just short sighted they are downright greedy (majority). quote=as long as it benefits themselves= Ha Ha would you say that remark was a little selfish ???...........The age group in the poll I would question as it seems to suggest just the younger population, I personally think the older generation are the worst-by far. the youngsters just learn by habit that this is the way here,and the norm. This is rife from the farm to the runaway politicians.

I agree that there's definitely a selfishness to them, but it's of a funny sort isn't it? I mean unless you don't spend time around Thais very often, how many times have you been invited to eat food you haven't paid for or take part in one of the many other things they enjoy doing communally when there's nothing to be gained from your presence except your company? I know this example is a cultural thing, but it's still unselfish of them.

I have trouble putting my finger on the exact way that they are selfish, because in certain regards they definitely are, and then a Thai person will turn around and give me something for free or share with me and my perception changes again. It's weird. It's certainly not pure, outright selfishness that runs through this country. It's almost institutionalized in that there are systematic times when they just will be corrupt, and it's accepted. For instance, when they're driving and a cop pulls them over for speeding they already know that they just need to bribe the guy and avoid all the ticket hassle. It's a funny country for sure.

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

christian ethics are so just? let us look at the current scandal in the uk with the press or perhaps nixon and watergate a financial system that looked away whilst banks got round bad debt by selling it off...

corruption or cover up?

Don't see what that has to do with western morals which condemn this behavior. These are just more examples of corruption which of course occurs everywhere in the world. The question, especially in relation to the article, is how prevalent is it in any one country, and what view does society have of it? The article makes it clear that a majority of Thais don't mind corruption because they themselves are corrupt.

Not so long ago, I quizzed a newly qualified Thai lady barrister, married to a friend of mine, if she would ever consider taking a bribe.

Without hesitation, she replied "yes, if I thought it would help my family".

This really depressed me. If the younger generation of "well educated" Thais are just as corrupt as their elders there is no hope....

"Without hesitation..." Wow. Her answer might as well have been, "of course!" Followed by loud cackling.

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

I couldn't agree more. I'm not religious, but I'm well aware that my moral base is deeply rooted in Christianity, and all I've done is omitted the God and church part. It's a good moral base to have as well.

What a surprise!

So according to your logic a martial arts expert who has hands that are deadly is planning on killing some one when ever he or she gets in a car.

you claim

"a lot of people on tv are a lot smarter than you"

But not many as Naive as you.

I thought maybe I would capitalize your word a being as it is the start of a sentence. But what the heck why try to make sense out of your argument.

This comparison does not stack up, a martial arts expert cannot but take his potentially lethal weapons with him. I did know of a guy who was a martial arts expert who went out looking for trouble and in that case premeditation was in my view present. Living in a rural area it is common to see motorcyclists with knives in holsters used for their every day work, in metropolitan Bangkok I can think of few jobs, except perhaps concerning food preparation which would require a large knife for every day use. True a small craft knife may be plausible, especially one which can open bottles, indeed some have so many attachments that by the time you find the blade the red mist would have possibly sunsided.

In summary I think the nature of the murder weapon contributes greatly to how the case should be dealt with - a sharpened Samurai sword should be treated exactly the same as premeditated murder in my oppinion.

I don't think the logic of the type of weapon determining premeditated or not makes sense, even if it were a sharpened Scottish Claymore. One problem I have with it, amongst others, is that it implies that a much smaller handheld knife wouldn't be premeditated based solely on the fact that it's less lethal. To me, anyone feel free to set me straight here, premeditated murder refers to a decision made by a person prior to murder, a decision to kill.

What difference does it make if they succeed with a pen knife, a machete, or a gun? The issue in a court of law won't change based on the weapon from the decision of: did the killer think about doing it prior to the murder or not? Was it a situation where they had time to decide to back away or move forward with murderous intent?

I think as far as the weapon is concerned charges can be added on if a person uses an illegal weapon, which a sharpened sword kept in a car probably would be in most countries. But, it shouldn't have any bearing on the premeditated decision unless a person sets up a guillotine or something and gets someone's head in it somehow and...now that would be ridiculously premeditated I guess.

Another thing I can think of that works with something like road rage is an instance where a person aggressively uses their car to force another car to pull over, gets out with a weapon, and commits murder. Even in this case, though, the weapon just fits into the whole story of premeditation starting with them using their car to instigate a fight and then following through with murder, so it still doesn't come down to the type of weapon in my mind.

Then perhaps it is time for the USA to have a control when people board an airplane in the USA so their criminals stay there.

Let's not forget about the UK and Australia. The numbers speak volumes.

It's clearly not a problem that can be pinned on any one country as criminals seem to leak out of all of them. Certain types of crimes do seem geographically related though. You read more articles about various types of scammers coming out of Europe it seems like, Africa--drugs and some scams as well, Russia and Japan--mafia, and Australia and the U.S. seem to similarly send over random criminals ranging from pedophiles through killers.

The USA is not any better than Thailand in this regard. There is not enough space on the internet to talk about the unethical and criminal things that happen in the USA. I hate when journalist have nothing to write about and make up stupid stories like this. True or not, I can easily make up the same story about the United States.

Freedom of speech is over-rated.

Hmmmm....but the unethical things that happen in other parts of the world, like the EU, could be covered with, oh say, .00001% of the internet while America's crimes against humanity are so numerous as to overflow the entire web?

Oh wait excuse me...I'm trying to type a whole response but still wiping tears of laughter from my eyes...

Ok that's better...sorry what were we talking about?

"...it can be hard to distinguish between the felons and the investment bankers on vacation. (In some cases, presumably, they could be one and the same.)"

I love it!

"...Crystal waters?" -where????

If you're in Pattaya nowhere. Come south my friend.

Hard to understand why a 63 yr. old man gets out of the car and has a fight with a man half his age, and at the cost of his life. R.I.P. It is sad.

there was a collision, the old guy was cut up, he chased the other guy, this resulted in a collision. the front of his car was badly damaged, I guess they need to get out of the car anyway, but in this case they got out because they wanted to argue/fight, pair of morons squabbling over bad driving.

to be fair to the murderer (and I am not condoning what he did in any way) he was rammed from behind by the older guy. ( unless he braked hard causing the collission)

That's true. Road rage is our primordial, territorial beast at its best/worst unleashed I guess. There's hardly another explanation or excuse needed really.

Someone said in some another post that the Thai Buudhist way and how Thai people really act sometimes are shockingly at odds. I guess this is a good example, especially in regards to a younger man killing a significantly older one.

I thought one of the most telling things in the article was when the younger man was quoted as saying something to the effect of, "I was just so angry, and he spoke rudely to me." All I could think was, "so you killed him?"

Hard to understand why a 63 yr. old man gets out of the car and has a fight with a man half his age, and at the cost of his life. R.I.P. It is sad.

Here's a newer definition for the younger crowd.

Cold Blooded

a person/persons who is considered wrong for an action they committed

Man, what you did to that ole girl is cold blooded.

To show blaten disrespect for another.

After his mother took me out for a nice steak dinner, I layed that ----- over the table and ------ her.... Cold blooded

Straight from the urban dictionary.

Cold-blooded or premeditated or other, he was carrying a knife (small, concealed, double-edge type used for close combat). He got out of his car. Note that the person who was murdered did not get out of his car (I think that is an important point). He walked over to the other car (and had time to consider his actions) and attacked the man who was sitting inside his car. He could have yelled at him and walked away or punched him, but he DECIDED to kill him. In my country he would either be on death row or in prison for life. Personally, I do not care what a person twice my age did or said, I would never assault him (unless he was trying to kill me). Some of you might find this interesting:

In Cold Blood is a 1966 book by American author Truman Capote detailing the brutal 1959 murders of Herbert Clutter, a wealthy farmer from Holcomb, Kansas, his wife and two of their children. The oldest daughters no longer lived at the farm. When Capote learned of the quadruple murder before the killers were captured, he decided to travel to Kansas and write about the crime. He was accompanied by his childhood friend and fellow author Harper Lee, and together they interviewed local residents and investigators assigned to the case and took thousands of pages of notes. The killers, Richard "Dick" Hickock and Perry Smith, were arrested not long after the murders, and Capote ultimately spent six years working on the book.

The recreation of events is inaccurate:

"A guy stepped out and despite my protest, my dad got out too. They quarrelled and fought. When my dad came back, he was holding his neck and was bleeding. He lost consciousness a short time later," Chatchawas said.

They did both get out and have some sort of altercation. The lack of details also make any presumptions, at best, only guesses because there's not enough information in the article to say that the man with the knife wasn't defending himself, or that he didn't just start stabbing the poor old guy in a fit of rage.

Here's a newer definition for the younger crowd.

Cold Blooded

a person/persons who is considered wrong for an action they committed

Man, what you did to that ole girl is cold blooded.

To show blaten disrespect for another.

After his mother took me out for a nice steak dinner, I layed that ----- over the table and ------ her.... Cold blooded

Straight from the urban dictionary.

Well, it would certainly make more sense than calling a man who killed someone in a fit of road rage cold blooded.

Fact is, the guy totally lost it and in a rage, killed another man over what is essentially a very stupid thing. Its terrible and sad and I feel awful for the old man's family.

It was not cold blooded, it was not pre-meditated and I know that most courts take that into consideration when sentencing and also when considering bail.

Sorry if facts offend or if some people wrongly assume that its condoning the action. That is your own read of it and has nothing to do with what is essentially a recitation of fact. Please do not ascribe to me opinions I have not made.

To murder a person "in cold blood" does not mean what you think and does not relate to the temperature of anything. I think we have a generation gap here Is it me, or is this type of thing increasing rapidly in Thailand. I think there is a generation of KWI idiots (16-38) who have played too many violent computer games, watched too many violent movies, have virtually no knowledge of anything, and who do not know any other way of dealing with a challenge than resorting to VIOLENCE! It is sad to see Thailand go down this road.

All fine, except that it's not the fault of video games or cinema. These are poor, poor excuses, and far too many people try to enter them into debates where they do not belong and consequently form a convenient scapegoat that undermines whatever real problems exist. As a lifetime gamer and movie lover (yes violent films too) I can safely say that, if anything, I've relieved plenty of aggression through these harmless outlets and often been the cooler head to prevail in arguments/altercations etc. I'm not the only person I know by a long shot, as there are plenty of gamers in the world, who fits into this category. There's also no evidence that any fault lies in games or movies, only uninformed blaming and finger pointing.

My general attitude to driving these days, and this included anywhere, not just Thailand: if you get a nutter behind you or someone is acting stupidly or agressivly: just let them go. After all they don't have the benefit of your experience and wisdom! Anyway, who wants all the hassel of an accident and trying to prove it wasn't your fault; in Thailand the assumption is you are the low class foreigner, so it must be your fault?

I would even go as far to say, I don't drive in Bangkok unless I have to. For numerous reasons, including hassel of parking, higher chance of having an accident, stuck in traffic, etc. Take a taxi or go by motorbike. Why make problems for yourself when there are easier options?

Thus the benefit of having your own vechical is to make trips out of Bangkok. The freedom of the road to go where you want, when you want.

I would add never even assert your right of way if you have a psychopathic nutcase heading towards you flashing their lights whilst overtaking in your lane. They have lucky charm amulets and even if they don't work reincarnation is a fallback option.

Good advice and funny at the same time.

The obvious question here is what kind of son sits idly by and watches his father murdered? Even if the father escalated the issue, the son's presence outside the car may very well have reduced the violence to words and accusations, especially if he'd tried to restrain the father and had attempted to calm the situation. Then again, it is the Buddhist way is it not, to avoid involvement?

Despite the Buudhist way it does seem to clash against logic on some genetic level not to step out of the car with your sixty-something year old father, especially when you see a man nearly half his age get out of the other car. Wow.

How bizarre. Then why did you bring it up to bother me about it again. Please post more carefully. What a waste of time.

The misunderstanding was cleared up after both posts had been made Dr. Aggro.

And, you're noticeably quiet on the Wiki MSM thing. I'll refresh your memory.

Men who have sex with men

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Men who have sex with men (abbreviated as MSM, also known as males who have sex with males) are male persons who engage in sexual activity with members of the same sex, regardless of how they identify themselves; many men choose not to (or cannot for other reasons) accept sexual identities of homosexual or bisexual.[1][2][3][4][5] The term was created in the 1990s by epidemiologists in order to study the spread of disease among men who have sex with men, regardless of identity.[2]

MSM is often used in medical literature and social research to describe such men as a group for research studies without considering issues of self-identification.

Jingthing, I think if you read this carefully you'll realize that it doesn't support your assertion that MSM sex is practiced by homosexuals and straight men. This, simply put, does not make that claim. This quote says that for the purposes of studying MSM sex scientists began to find it easier to refer to it this way because, as it sounds to me, they wanted to bypass the insecurities of men practicing MSM sex who weren't ready to admit their sexual orientation. These scientists, by simply saying "MSM" could conduct their scientific studies and avoid sexual issues altogether, because their interest was not in confronting anybody with their homosexuality but, rather, conducting a study of diseases. It even says it's primarily a term used in the medical/scientific community.

If your misinterpretation here is the basis for everything you've said with "MSM" in it followed by something about sexual orientation I'm not sure there's much of a chance that I can now find it credible.

3. Show me where I ever said, gay sex is more common than straight sex? I can't believe I ever said such a thing, I accuse you of BLATANT LYING. To make this clear to more clear minded people, I don't believe there is more gay sex going on than straight sex.

Jing, you did say something like this. I recall reading it as well. I'm not going to waste my time looking for it as it's futile and makes me dumber. You can find it yourself.

You're wrong and I'm not searching for you either, the nerve. You can find any kind of snippet and ignore the obvious CONTEXT and make it mean the OPPOSITE of what was actually communicated. It's an absurd thing to think when only 2 percent of the world is gay. I think you were confused by the discussion (VERY SPECIFIC!) that for MALE SEX WORKERS in most countries their MALE customers (gay sex) are more plentiful than their FEMALE customers. This comment is totally limited to the experience of MALE SEX WORKERS. How anyone can expand think to think I said anything even close to what you are suggesting I said is simply 100 percent false. I obviously never intended to expand that to ALL people. Repeat for hopefully the final time -- the discussion was ONLY about male sex workers and who their customers are.

Jing, this already got cleared up. The original poster who misquoted you recanted that statement, obviously negating mine as well by default. But, this isn't a very important issue anyway. However, I think my response to your Wiki quote about MSM is well in order.

Unbelievable discussion. So many people here really think that the monks can do something bad to poor ladyboys. It looks like homo apologets will be very happy to close all temples, convert monks to ladyboys, abolish religion and history and open gay saunas instead of temples, monasteries, museums, libraries and schools. Stalin and Mao were systematically destroying religion in their own countries as well. A direct parallel between commies and our present days homophiles come to mind. Their actions both are based on dicatorship. Dictators do not tolerate any sort of criticism to their address, same as homos do. They are not democrats as they are trying to represent but the most evil hypocritical dictators with Napoleon complexes. They are not sitting quietly in the corner, wanking, no, but, per contra, shouting on each bloody corner how proud they are to be screwed from behind by same sex ''partners'' , trying to convert everybody in this world in their vicious likeness. However, I am happy that these sort of people are still the minority in the society and I hope they will be.

Since when did any kind of MSM movement start to resemble anybody like Stalin or Mao? If anything, as described in the article about monks and ladyboys, it's the various MSM groups that have failed to gain proper recognition and have to find a place in a culture that doesn't really understand them. In your point above when you talk about squashing religion it's essentially the same thing as not properly recognizing a group, close anyway.

It's not like revolt or rebellion is anything new either. Groups that feel repressed and rise up go back farther than our recorded history. The current gay pride movement isn't any different really.

I have certain feelings on this issue that have been thoroughly expressed throughout this thread, but I can hardly agree that any kind of homosexual/MSM pride movement oppresses heterosexual people instead of the other way around.

Men who have sex with men

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Men who have sex with men (abbreviated as MSM, also known as males who have sex with males) are male persons who engage in sexual activity with members of the same sex, regardless of how they identify themselves; many men choose not to (or cannot for other reasons) accept sexual identities of homosexual or bisexual.[1][2][3][4][5] The term was created in the 1990s by epidemiologists in order to study the spread of disease among men who have sex with men, regardless of identity.[2]

MSM is often used in medical literature and social research to describe such men as a group for research studies without considering issues of self-identification.

Jingthing, I think if you read this carefully you'll realize that it doesn't support your assertion that MSM sex is practiced by homosexuals and straight men. This, simply put, does not make that claim. This quote says that for the purposes of studying MSM sex scientists began to find it easier to refer to it this way because, as it sounds to me, they wanted to bypass the insecurities of men practicing MSM sex who weren't ready to admit their sexual orientation. These scientists, by simply saying "MSM" could conduct their scientific studies and avoid sexual issues altogether, because their interest was not in confronting anybody with their homosexuality but, rather, conducting a study of diseases. It even says it's primarily a term used in the medical/scientific community.

If your misinterpretation here is the basis for everything you've said with "MSM" in it followed by something about sexual orientation I'm not sure there's much of a chance that I can now find it credible.

another poster suggested that ladyboys can be helped BACK with hormone treatment, sounding like a disorder.

A weight lifter having steroids and hormone treatment to give him more masculinity..fine until he stops it and his body returns to what it was-OR even in a worse state, agree there are exceptions

Actually I was VERY clear in saying SOME ladyboy suffer from a disorder that can be treated with hormone therapy ... here, do a little research http://en.wikipedia....order#Treatment

Gender identity disorder

(

GID

) is the formal diagnosis used by

psychologists

and

physicians

to describe persons who experience significant gender

dysphoria

(discontent with their biological

sex

and/or the

gender

they were assigned at birth).

Treatment

The

World Professional Association for Transgender Health

(WPATH, formerly HBIGDA)

Standards of Care

(Version 6 from 2001) are considered by some as definitive treatment guidelines for providers. Other Standards exist (see those discussed in

Standards of care for gender identity disorders

, including the guidelines outlined in Gianna Israel and Donald Tarver's classic 1997 book "Transgender Care". Several health clinics in the United States (e.g. Tom Waddell in San Francisco, Callen Lorde in New York City, Mazzoni in Philadelphia) have developed "

protocols

" for transgender hormone therapy following a "

harm reduction

" model which increasing numbers of providers have adopted. Nick Gorton et al. suggest a flexible approach based on harm reduction, "Willingness to provide hormonal therapy based on assessment of individual patients needs, history and situation with an overriding goal of achieving the best outcome for patients rather than rigidly adhering to arbitrary rules has been successful."

^[10]

Edit: Hormone Therapy is not at all an uncommon treatment for a number of things (including cancer) and yes for some conditions you need to take it the rest of your life as is the case with MANY drug therapies ... including drugs for diabetics.

Seems logical. If some ladyboys take feminine hormones then why not the other way around?