DumFarang

I might be a thick Mick but I can't get my head around it (pun intended)!

If a man wants to have his bits lopped off so he looks like a female to coerce men to screw him surely to Bhudda

the man must be queer as a coot to start with!

What is all this bo llocks about transexuals being different to gays. They surely must be gay to want to have sex with another man even though they look like a woman. Bejaysus I thought the raving queens in the catholic church/any church were mad!!

Agree with you sentiments, but most gays on this board are attracted to masculine men not lady boys / transsexuals. Apparently lady boys are used by heterosexual men in the main? Do a search loads of information on this in previous topics.

Yeah, but I think his point is about the sexual orientation of the ladyboys. They don't care who takes them up on a sexual offer be it a straight man or a gay one. I completely agree with the point. A man who wants to have sex with men is gay. How he dresses, etc. etc. as far as it goes aren't disqualifying factors in my mind either.

Of course they don't because the whole thing is poverty related, as mentioned in my earlier post. your previous post did not go over my head ( arrogance) but don't see the relevance to this topic. and i still detest the emotion crap. Homosexuality was rife in Roman times, but we are discussing lady boys are we not. Not homosexuals. There appears to be a difference. I have been to Korea many times and i don't agree with your statement.

Well I didn't visit Korea. I lived there. Koreans will deny that homosexuality exists in their country. The funny part is you'll see men who lean on each other and rest on each other and stuff like that, while wearing pink sweaters mind you, but it doesn't exist, so they claim.

Anyway, I can't believe you're so caught up on the word homosexuality. If being a ladybody had been fashionable in ancient Rome and Athens then that would be my example. As this wasn't the case it's not.

What they were or condoned is immaterial. My point is cultural not sexual, not sexual, not sexual, not sexual.

There used to be quite a few ladyboys in Penang and also down Bugis Street in Singapore.

There still are in Penang. If you're walking late at night you'll be propositioned at every corner if not more often than that. And, they're nastier than Thais in terms of politeness. I won't quote anything that was said when I rejected them, just suffice to say--nastier.

In another life we took our Australian shipping agent on a round trip that included Singapore and Penang. Before we got our hands on him he was a teetotal scoutmaster (a 'wowser' if you know your Oz). We introduced him to whiskey and the delights of Bugis Street. He'd never seen a ladyboy before and was fascinated by them. We moved on to Penang where he'd had a few drinks before we went ashore. We were walking up the street behind a ladyboy and he grabbed hold of her arse. She turned round, took a swing and knocked him out

Great story.

Sorry i thought we were talking about lady boys not homosexuality, which appears to be quite a different thing?

I might be a thick Mick but I can't get my head around it (pun intended)!

If a man wants to have his bits lopped off so he looks like a female to coerce men to screw him surely to Bhudda

the man must be queer as a coot to start with!

What is all this bo llocks about transexuals being different to gays. They surely must be gay to want to have sex with another man even though they look like a woman. Bejaysus I thought the raving queens in the catholic church/any church were mad!!

Agree with you sentiments, but most gays on this board are attracted to masculine men not lady boys / transsexuals. Apparently lady boys are used by heterosexual men in the main? Do a search loads of information on this in previous topics.

Yeah, but I think his point is about the sexual orientation of the ladyboys. They don't care who takes them up on a sexual offer be it a straight man or a gay one. I completely agree with the point. A man who wants to have sex with men is gay. How he dresses, etc. etc. as far as it goes aren't disqualifying factors in my mind either.

Sorry i thought we were talking about lady boys not homosexuality, which appears to be quite a different thing?

I might be a thick Mick but I can't get my head around it (pun intended)!

If a man wants to have his bits lopped off so he looks like a female to coerce men to screw him surely to Bhudda

the man must be queer as a coot to start with!

What is all this bo llocks about transexuals being different to gays. They surely must be gay to want to have sex with another man even though they look like a woman. Bejaysus I thought the raving queens in the catholic church/any church were mad!!

Somebody gets it.

There is also a cultural factor to consider. In ancient Rome homosexuality was considered sort of fashionable. A lot of the stigma, for that region anyway, came along with the rise of Christianity which is nothing other than another cultural influence. I believe a similar thing can be traced back to ancient Athens if I'm not mistaken.

It has always existed.

Sorry i thought we were talking about lady boys not homosexuality, which appears to be quite a different thing?

In that whole point you only saw the word "homosexuality?" Fine replace it with anything you like. If you read it again maybe you'll get the point.

I read it again and can only see the word homosexuality and of course it has always existed. What is your point?

See I put the detestable whistling thing as well. Smart

I love the whistling thing. In one simple emoticon it immediately lets someone know that something completely sailed over their head.

The point isn't what ancient Rome and Athens condoned at all whether it be homosexuality, transexuality, cross dressing, or bestiality. The point is the societies didn't frown upon it too greatly, so it occurred quite regularly. Compare that to a more repressive culture like modern day South Korea where almost any Korean man or woman will openly tell you that gays don't exist in Korea, if you can believe that. Maybe it paints the picture for you when compared to Thailand's culture of open mindedness.

There are a mega amount of lady boys in Brazil, Philippines as well as Thailand. Common denominator poverty, This is not just a Thai thing, or maybe all the guys in the aforementioned countries eat out of plastic bags?

There is also a cultural factor to consider. In ancient Rome homosexuality was considered sort of fashionable. A lot of the stigma, for that region anyway, came along with the rise of Christianity which is nothing other than another cultural influence. I believe a similar thing can be traced back to ancient Athens if I'm not mistaken.

It has always existed.

Sorry i thought we were talking about lady boys not homosexuality, which appears to be quite a different thing?

In that whole point you only saw the word "homosexuality?" Fine replace it with anything you like. If you read it again maybe you'll get the point.

There used to be quite a few ladyboys in Penang and also down Bugis Street in Singapore.

There still are in Penang. If you're walking late at night you'll be propositioned at every corner if not more often than that. And, they're nastier than Thais in terms of politeness. I won't quote anything that was said when I rejected them, just suffice to say--nastier.

There are a mega amount of lady boys in Brazil, Philippines as well as Thailand. Common denominator poverty, This is not just a Thai thing, or maybe all the guys in the aforementioned countries eat out of plastic bags?

There is also a cultural factor to consider. In ancient Rome homosexuality was considered sort of fashionable. A lot of the stigma, for that region anyway, came along with the rise of Christianity which is nothing other than another cultural influence. I believe a similar thing can be traced back to ancient Athens if I'm not mistaken.

It has always existed.

the flipping of one's gender seems to be epidemic in Thailand unlike any other country I have ever heard of. This is not only boys acting like girls, but girls acting and looking much like men. The "problem" will never be "solved" as long as the priority of convenience outweighs the consequence. The over consumption of Phthalates in the food chain from plastic bottles that sit in the sun and putting oily and hot food in plastic bags continues. A well known fact that Phthalates are carcinogenic and cause chromosome damage is well documented is a clear factor in gender disorders. The over use of estrogen mimicking pesticides is also well documented in causing the feminine qualities of a species to take dominance ie. hermaphroditic frogs and fish. In the case of hormones, a small amount has the same effect as a lot but in this country more is always better. More chemicals, more antibiotics, more volume, more MSG, the more "modern" the better. You can't change something that is by telling it it is not, ludicrous.

A good scientific precis of the most probable cause of so many ladyboys in Thailand, and incidentally the Philippines and Brazil. I would add that phthalates are used as plasticisers for PVC, hence the rigid plastic uPVC is not a risk, it is the flexible plastic found in most food wrappings which is the problem. Whilst phthallates will leach even into water, they leach more readily into acidified water such as carbonated drinks, the practice of small shops pouring coke etc into plastic bags, is a common practice in the three countries named.

Meat animals, particularly chickens, are regularly fed oestrogen in order to promote rapid growth, this then enters the food chain.

The end result of all this is that girls mature faster, breast development is precocious, boys become feminised and male sperm count falls.

Where I disagree with the quoted comment is in the incidence and correlation with female to male transition, lesbians are small in numbers compared to layboys, even then the majority are bi-sexual in orientation.

This is a very interesting twist on this thread. I have zero knowledge about it but thank you two for introducing it. Now I have an interesting new thing to learn about.

Yeah right! Because this country has so much in common with Taliban ruled Afghanistan!

Sure it does - the Buddhist conservative elements here, just as the Christian ones back home block efforts to improve sex education and access to reproductive health services by the young and poor, not only causing unnecessarily large numbers of teen pregnancies and kids not properly cared for, but vastly increased AIDS fatalities.

Refusal to publicly acknowledge the huge social problems caused by criminalizing the sex industry when all concerned would be much better off if it were legal and regulated.

Not as extreme, but still remnants of gender inequality under the law, and definite entrenched injustice at the social/community level, many customs and attitudes supporting women as chattel, little support for changing that through education from the top.

Despite women generally being more intelligent, ambitious and diligent than the men here, the better-paying, less-work jobs definitely go to men.

Not as extreme as the Taliban, but still stupid traditionalism maintained as if it were true morality by religion-supported conservativism. . .

Well if you go around always splitting hairs like this to define your world view then you're right I guess. I don't because nothing is ever absolute, so technically nothing ever ends. To make comparisons between Thai society and the vision of a Taliban society is laughable at best. The outward appearance of the two are nothing like each other. It's like saying a mouse resembles a human because of that statistic that we share ninety some odd percent of each other's genetic code, or that getting slapped in the face by a child is similar to being beaten mercilessly nearly to the point of death just because they both involve a degree of violence.

Nisa you got me confused by saying gay and lesbian are not the same ??????.............Lesbians are gay ladies. if not what are they ????

I didn't say gay and lesbian were not the same. What I said was. "... the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays "

I like you define both male and females attracted to the same sex as being gay.

Edit: maybe it is different up North, but in Bangkok I learned long ago not to refer to a women as gay because it confused Thais and I received a response on more than one occasion asking how a women can be gay.

I think I'd go crazy trying get one of them to comprehend that. Mental note: never try to explain the definition of gay to a Thai person.

What I have noticed, here in Chiang mai, (don't know about other places in Thailand) a lot of ladyboys are gone, where you saw before a group of girlfriends always joined with at least 1 ladyboy they seem to be be joined by at least 1 tomboy nowadays.....

Very strange.. don't know where the ladyboys went.. and I don't know where all the tomboys come from all of a sudden...

The ladyboy population has exploded here where I am in the south. Ladyboy migration?

Do either of you hear much about Ladyboy suicides? I remember years ago I read an article about the very high rate of suicides by ladyboys. It seem to infer that many worked in the cities and then when they got older they returned home only to become very depressed and kill themselves. I've always wondered how much truth was in the story but always think about it when i see Ladyboys and the very very few older ones I see.

A fair share of them die of disease too. Obviously that doesn't account for all, but it's common.

Hey Jingthing, you really have to laugh at some of the posters comments on gay issues, it's nearly impossible to answer some posts. If some posters do not understand why don't they ask?? rather than the crap that they believe in. The gay meaning to my mind is man to man and woman to woman, people mix up all the others and put them into 1 basket.

You need to have "common" definitions when speaking about such things. Your definition of gay is different than that of the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays. You have also now lumped many lady boys into simply being gay since if the have male genitalia they are clearly male by definition across the globe. So, it can cause a lot of confusion in who and what we are talking about using your definition of gay. I guess we could call the Ladyboy's with a penis "Gay Ladyboys" .

I had a Gay yes Gay friend come over for a 2 week holiday last year..He was a litle confused with it all here..His quote was " I like my men to be men" when I asked him if he liked Ladyboys! So there is confusion in all groupsif you have to group people.My opinion for whats its worth is "Live and let Live"! When you are old enough to decide then its up to you what so called gender you want to be...

Excluding those who get into it for the sex trade .. I'd have to assume Ladyboys themselves are not attracted to gay men. It would seem they want a man who likes women or on the other end of the stick (no pun intended) they simply don't want to be gay. I also think that if a gay person was attracted to a Ladyboy, they may not be all that gay as they think. It would seem more logical that curious hetrosexual men or bisexual men would be the ones most interested in a Ladyboy .. ones with a penis anyway.

Gay men aren't necessarily attracted to gay men. They have gender roles just like hetero couples. It's much easier to make out when you see two lesbians where one is a bull and the other is still effeminate. So, essentially, a ladyboy isn't doing anything different than a gay man playing the feminine role. They will still be going with the same type of masculine man. Obviously a sex change is a different thing, but then a man is a transsexual. So, I don't see the difference in one man dressing up like a woman and another playing the feminine role, apart from the obvious wardrobe shift. Either way neither one of them ever takes on the masculine role to my knowledge. If you ask me one of them is just an overachiever. Two things can still be the same thing even with degrees that separate them.

What I have noticed, here in Chiang mai, (don't know about other places in Thailand) a lot of ladyboys are gone, where you saw before a group of girlfriends always joined with at least 1 ladyboy they seem to be be joined by at least 1 tomboy nowadays.....

Very strange.. don't know where the ladyboys went.. and I don't know where all the tomboys come from all of a sudden...

The ladyboy population has exploded here where I am in the south. Ladyboy migration?

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Hey Jingthing, you really have to laugh at some of the posters comments on gay issues, it's nearly impossible to answer some posts. If some posters do not understand why don't they ask?? rather than the crap that they believe in. The gay meaning to my mind is man to man and woman to woman, people mix up all the others and put them into 1 basket.

You need to have "common" definitions when speaking about such things. Your definition of gay is different than that of the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays. You have also now lumped many lady boys into simply being gay since if the have male genitalia they are clearly male by definition across the globe. So, it can cause a lot of confusion in who and what we are talking about using your definition of gay. I guess we could call the Ladyboy's with a penis "Gay Ladyboys" .

Suffice to say the murky point has gotten cloudier.

Two points:

1. I though Buddhism taught acceptance.

2. Over many years I've heard many stories about monks molesting young temple boys. A bit inconsistent.

Hmmm....which other religion has that problem?

Which one doesn't?

Touche.

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Does a Ladyboy technically have to have a penis? I mean if they have completed the transition from male to female (post-op) are they still a ladyboy or would they be considered transsexual?

Part of the problem discussing issues like this is defining the terms. Thai's themselves simply refer to all outwardly gay men as ladyboys while I think most of us believe it is either shemales or gay men who put themselves out there as being women .. at least in appearance.

I could be wrong but I believe ladyboy is a Thai reference and if this is true then it would make sense to use the local definition and not the more broader shemale definition. Even the OP itself is making its own definition by saying that Ladyboy is synonymous with transsexuals when in fact this would mean they would have had to undergone some sort of surgery.

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Well...I feel terrible about that.

Not being to religious myself (I am a reborn again Pagan) I feel that religion is a way to put forth a set of moral ides. these are ideas that society could base its self on. That is not to say it happens all the time.

It would be self defeating if it was based on what the culture is like today.

The title was very misleading. It should have said preach rather than teach.

By the way this is 2011 we now have a spell check on are computers.

Pot, kettle

Two points:

1. I though Buddhism taught acceptance.

2. Over many years I've heard many stories about monks molesting young temple boys. A bit inconsistent.

Hmmm....which other religion has that problem?

Again Thailand proves that their unique taliban style of Buddhism will not tolerate anything but the party line.

Exactly like Taliban 2.0

Yeah right! Because this country has so much in common with Taliban ruled Afghanistan!

My God, it is like going back a couple of hundred years in time. Imagine having a sociaty like Thailand, free and approving of most gays, lesbians and ladyboys and such stuff. And than within the very same sociaty having these Buddist monks living their lifes like it was the year of 1036 AD or something. No it is really time to fresh up the monks and the tempels in Thailand in order to make them modern and more in terms with today!

Glegolo

I don't see the problem with it. It's religious freedom. They should be allowed to have their view, albeit narrow as it is. As soon as you say these guys need to have different views, and it actually gets enforced then where does it end? It's a slippery slope and one that can end up becoming a society that doesn't condone homosexuality, in any of its forms, at all.

Males feeling like they are females is NOT the same as gay! Effeminacy is NOT the same as gay!

You're wasting your breath Jing. Save it for something important.

No kidding. Realistically how many versions of non-heterosexuality can a society be expected to keep track of anyway? Should it just not be referred to at all for fear of saying it wrong? That's just PC entanglement serving the same minuscule purpose as the rest of it.

Sorry you can't deal with complications. ONLY Black and white for you, is it? Sounds very lazy to me. Not about PC, about REALITY. You must really have trouble in restaurants with long menus ...

Actually, I own a restaurant with a long menu written by me, so no that's not an problem. You seem easily offended on this issue. I was just offering my opinion. I also don't see the point in treating this as a sensitive issue, and it's certainly not worth getting in an argument that the moderators will only delete anyway.

Let me put the point to you this way. I like to play Poker. Most people call it gambling even though I think it's a strategic game that falls outside the realm of betting and praying for the best. Should I invest my time trying to convince people, who really don't care about the nuances anyway, that's it's a strategy game, not just gambling? And really why should anybody care? There's already a word for it that only misses the mark on technicalities.

Males feeling like they are females is NOT the same as gay! Effeminacy is NOT the same as gay!

You're wasting your breath Jing. Save it for something important.

No kidding. Realistically how many versions of non-heterosexuality can a society be expected to keep track of anyway? Should it just not be referred to at all for fear of saying it wrong? That's just PC entanglement serving the same minuscule purpose as the rest of it.

Sometimes we give them money to buy snacks but he saved it up to buy mascara," headteacher Phra Pitsanu Witcharato said of Pipop.

This is the point at which I checked to see if the top said "satire" in red.