DumFarang

Drawing a zero tolerance to corruption line in the sand,

not allowing an moral equivocation or historical grievances

color the actual use of law should be sacrosanct as a basis f

or implementing Democracy correctly.

It is a benchmark for the implementation and functioning of

checks and balances which is inherent to democracies proper.

Oh, they got away with it i the past!

Oh, stopping it now, is a 'double standard'.

Oh, they had guys doing the same thing.

None of these arguments can be allowed in a proper democracy with the rule of law.

Draw the line in the sand and prosecute ALL instances,

and those that meet the standards of proof WILL get punished.

Do it now, and not delayed, because it wasn't done properly in the past,.

From now on rule of law, and learn to deal with it, ar fall.

And who is paying all these people who can smother the line with enough eyes and ears to catch every little infraction?

Your stringent view looks nice on paper, but do you actually believe it's humanly possible?

You have changed the question, but the answer is the same. As long as I post under a pseudonym, you have no proof that I am a foreigner, and I don't accept that stating my opinion is "interference"or 'participation", especially in an english-language forum aimed at foreigners. I also express my opinion amongst friends and family, but I don't attend political rallies or armed insurgencies.

As you also continue to post, I can only assume that you think the same way, or given the OP, that you think electoral law should be broken with impunity.

We are discussing the action of breaking the law, you make my point so well, no matter if you are immune to prosecution, YOU are aware that YOU broke the law....that is where the double standards come in calling for the letter of the law to be followed

I've always followed the belief of one of my former business managers............rules are but a line in the sand, you may put your foot right over the line, you may just nudge your toe over the line.....but you will not be allowed to move the line...........

This is actually a really good example of rules/laws and the philosophy of law enforcement, well my philosophy anyway. It reminds me of John Goodman's character in the movie The Big Lebowski when he spots someone's foot cross the line a bit in a bowling competition and when the guy claims he was legal Goodman goes as far as pulling a gun on him. Obviously it's the act of a disturbed man who constantly struggles with PTSD, and just as in your example the line on a bowling lane isn't going anywhere is it? But, do we as viewers condone that form of law enforcement, of course not. No sane person would.

My interpretation of laws/rules is similar to this. The line is the line, but should we lose a toe that crosses it and gets pulled back fairly quickly. Should it be so strict that a penalty must be enforced? When equating this to the real world I think not. In bowling I would probably take a different view.

However, including banned politicians in an electoral campaign isn't grazing the other side of the line with one's toe. It's stepping right over it and acting as if it doesn't or, even worse, shouldn't exist. If anything does come of this that works out negatively for the PTP I can only say, "you should've respected the line a bit more and known just how much leeway it can allow if your foot barely crosses it."

No people appreciate those who do something for them. Didnt the BoT the other day say the 300 baht minimum wage was not a worry? Im sure those employing slave labour wouldnt agree with them

Good point above slave labor. Many Thai employers will of course literally hire slave labor (Cambodians/Burmese) and fire their Thais as being unrealistically overvalued.

I'm not sure where you're getting Burmese being slave labor from (I only know one Cambodian working here btw). There are still a lot of kinks in the system, but they have to get cards now to work legally, and immigration does put forth an effort to check and catch the undocumented ones. The Burmese get paid a bit less than the Thais on average, but it's far from slave labor. The salaries are comparable, at least I can say that for where I live, and there are several thousand Burmese workers milling around here, and a few are in my employ making the same wage I offer Thais. The difference is the Burmese roll up their sleeves and get to work, and the Thais complain about not having most of the day free to lay around sniffing menthol.

It's basic economics, so any economist would say it usually would do so. Of course, the risk of it being a burden increase with the actual plan, the actual numbers and speed of it. Raising wages works smoothly when the quality level of human capital is raised FIRST. To put this harshly, Thailand's poor should be thinking more about improving the lives of their CHILDREN than themselves, because any artificial quick fixes are not only not going to help their children, they are going to backfire on themselves, as they aren't based on actual sustainable real wealth (higher skill levels).

I understand your view from the standpoint of pure logic, but in the real world a wage increase has to happen sometime, and it has to be across the board. It's never going to be a case where a bunch of skilled workers show up just in time to accept a wage increase. An improvement in skill level must come along with a wage increase, but you have to break a few eggs, especially on a national scale. Some people with few skills will benefit just as well as some people with better skills. But, with effort toward equality it will level out and gradually the vast majority will have fairly equal skill sets.

I understand the need for a minimum wage on a national level, but to be honest I own a restaurant and my staff don't get the same salaries. Some are simply more valuable than others even if their skill sets overlap. I pay the ones who shine more money b/c they're eager and smart and they take on more responsibility without me having to look over their shoulders like a parent. Some people might think it sounds unfair, but it's not to me. The ones I pay more are more valuable to me. I reward effort and positive results. I guess my staff work in a free market!

Legitimate? If the judiciary were neutral, which they are not (yet),

What's your proof for that? They found Thaksin guilty so they can't possibly be neutral? They refused the 2 million baht bribe his lawyers offered on his behalf, so they must be biased?

You telling me someone refused a bribe in Thailand, I think this should be a cover story in itself, did he say "No" or "I cant because to many people are watching." This makes better news.

Thais don't even refuse bribes when it doesn't even count as a bribe b/c they don't plan on honoring it.

Not about Thaksin, the people have voted and had their say, they voted knowing thaksin was involved......they had their say...........

Are they now to be denied by the political manouvres of people they chose NOT to run their country?

If they are denied it won't be because of "the people they chose NOT to run their country", it will be because PTP broke electoral law.

If you commit a crime do you turn around and point the finger of blame at the person who spotted you commit it? This is the idea you are promoting.

Well put. I tried to say that, but couldn't think of such a good example.

I am no fan of this new government too - and we all know what their real motives are...

But they won - and they really should be given a chance without being cock blocked by the dems...

Whats best for Thailand now?

Maybe the current gov is really bad - But a military coup or a repeat of last years 'bangkok burning' is far worse...

Let them have their power.... let the poor people have their say...

Afterall the dems never won in the last 20 years - and for whatever reasons that is, its still a fact that they just dont know how to please ALL the people, only the educated ones...

Don't forget that only 48% of the voters voted for PTP, So the other 52% of the voters that did not vote for the PTP should not have justice if the PTP broke the law? Everyone must abide by the rule of law in a democracy even if they won 95% of the popular vote. Otherwise what is the point in having a democracy. This is something all parties need to understand, and they need to lead the country by example.

Yep. If they want to show the Thai people that they can carry them into the future they should have started by winning an election where the Dems could not prove that they couldn't come by it without bending and breaking the rules. I don't know what could be more obvious. I can't even think of an example, because it's just so obvious.

I am no fan of this new government too - and we all know what their real motives are...

But they won - and they really should be given a chance without being cock blocked by the dems...

Whats best for Thailand now?

Maybe the current gov is really bad - But a military coup or a repeat of last years 'bangkok burning' is far worse...

Let them have their power.... let the poor people have their say...

Afterall the dems never won in the last 20 years - and for whatever reasons that is, its still a fact that they just dont know how to please ALL the people, only the educated ones...

You think Thaksin is all about poor people having their say? That's amusing.

He is all about the poor having their say. Just as long as they say what he wants to hear, and he thinks it all sounds pretty good about now.

Not about Thaksin, the people have voted and had their say, they voted knowing thaksin was involved......they had their say...........

Are they now to be denied by the political manouvres of people they chose NOT to run their country?

And, whether they know what's good for them or not, are they to be run by people who couldn't come by their victory without committing electoral fraud without any repercussions?

I am no fan of this new government too - and we all know what their real motives are...

But they won - and they really should be given a chance without being cock blocked by the dems...

Whats best for Thailand now?

Maybe the current gov is really bad - But a military coup or a repeat of last years 'bangkok burning' is far worse...

Let them have their power.... let the poor people have their say...

Afterall the dems never won in the last 20 years - and for whatever reasons that is, its still a fact that they just dont know how to please ALL the people, only the educated ones...

You think Thaksin is all about poor people having their say? That's amusing.

He is all about the poor having their say. Just as long as they say what he wants to hear, and he thinks it all sounds pretty good about now.

It was the local branch of the EC that included the "noodles incident" in their election report. The Democrats have nothing to do with that.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that just, before the election, Pheu Thai asked the EC to disband the Democrats ... because they "criticised it's candidates".

Lets not let a small local incident about noodles distract from the real issues.

I would view dissolution for criticizing candidates as a ridiculous charge.

But letting banned, self exiled and convicted Thaksin control, finance and,

dictate positions and membership positions to the party is an extremely serious charge,

Ok, so we will put the noodle dish aside. How about you take a stab at answering the question; What is the motive for bringing a "complaint" against the PTP?

Do the people defending the activity honestly believe that the motive is based solely on the accusers' love of Thailand and respect for the electoral process?

If they got in buy playing by the rules, then they have nothing to worry about

If not then they did not get to be the parliment fairly

same same the democrats

One thing I've started wondering as this conversation has continued to blossom is that the PTP has made such an obvious infraction here that they had see in advance that these charges would be filed, so why go ahead with the cheating? It makes me wonder if they have some end game in mind where this hurdle has already been foreseen and deemed to not be a serious obstacle in the realization of their ultimate goal. My rational side says it's too far fetched and the little conspiracy theorist in me clamoring to get out sees it as totally possible.

Repeatedly embroiling themsleves in Thaksin stuff only damages the party. The country needs its biggest opposition party to be viable. Leave the establishment to fight their battles while being an opposition for all the country. Hasnt Chamlong and a woman form Nakhon Sawan already filed complaints? Why are the Dems so stupid as to get embroiled in this again. They need to be breaking the image that they are the lapdogs of the establishment and show they are an opposition for all the people including those who voted PTP. Thksin just becomes a massive distraction and a huge albatross around the necks of the Dems. Just move on time

I agree that it damages the Dems, but i don't agree that electoral laws being broken should be ignored simply on the basis that the party in question won. If the issue wasn't sufficiently being scrutinized, which to my mind it wasn't, damaging to themselves or not, i think the Dems had no choice - indeed some may say they had a duty - to bring this matter up.

At the end of the day, it's not the Dems who will decide on guilt.

Exactly if you don't want the opposing party to bring charges against you then don't something stupid like breaking campaign laws.

It's funny that in Thailand so many politicians are so mischievous that it required a law be made to ban them. I'm sure it doesn't only exist here, but you don't hear about politicians from other countries getting sent to the corner for a timeout this often. They might as well have political referees with the striped shirts and everything b/c this essentially a football match!

Why didnt they raise it at the start of the campaign? They raise it now after losing.

I agree this matter should have been looked at before the election, but again, the onus shouldn't have been on the Dems. Someone else should have brought the matter up. They didn't. From the Dems point of view, i guess if they were going to have to report it themselves, the knew they weren't going to be able to do so twice, so best to leave it until the latest possible time when there would be the most evidence.

By the way, the Dems can stand aside and say nothing. There are plenty of establishment types who could raise this kind of case. Why do the Dems have to damage themselves to raise it?

Isn't there a seven day time limit, which we are now at the end of?

They submitted the complaint in time.

The PTP won the election and havent even formed a government yet and the losers are trying to have them disbanded on a complaint they could have made months ago but didnt. That doesnt look much like check and balance and even some of the soon to be opposition party are distancing themselves from the move

They could only complain about Thaksin's involvement in the election after the election was called.

They also have until 7 days after the election to lodge any complaints.

Obviously, the longer they waited, the more evidence they would have ... so why not wait?

Not to mention, if the campaign had been going well for them why ruin a good thing with the finger pointing? Nothing left to lose after losing the election. Waiting until after the voting makes the most sense.

Totally stupid move by the Democrats. They need to learn that all these attacks make them more unpopular and less likely to lead any government. It is time to accept the defeat and for the Dem party to take a long hard look at its own failures and unpopularity and work on these so that Thailand can have a viable alternative for government in the not so distant future.

To just blame others continually for your defeat is to never move forward.

Initially Abhisit did the right thing in congratulating and stating he wouldnt stand against Yingluck etc. Now we are back to the Dems just seeming like bad losers and driving people further into PTP support.

Unfortunate that it's down to the Dems to bring this case forward, because as you say, i don't think it will make them any more popular, and those against them will be even more strengthened in their resolve.

But the fact is, if electoral laws have been broken, somebody should be raising the question, and if nobody is, i find it hard to blame the Dems for not standing by and letting them get away with it, as you seem to feel they should.

The Dems don't have much left to lose at this point. Why not go down swinging?

A political "mandate" does not override rule of law. It's that simple. But some people like to think it does.

This is where the rubber meets the road isn't it? What appeared to be a legal election is followed by a perfectly legal set of charges issued to the EC. This is why we have those big buildings with judges in them. The Dems are acting within the law, and I commend them. If this were the red shirts something would be on fire.

advanced member we all can see which side your coming from , why di you really wont to give the party another go , they lost no matter what , and having people like you on yr soap box don't help Thailand unless you are one of the rich !

"advanced member" is not a poster's title, it is a descriptor used by many. Your use of pronouns is also confusing, though I'm sure you know what it is that you are attempting to express. The little red line under a word means that you have mis-spelt it.

Better luck next time.

This is TV not his doctoral thesis. I understood his point, so who cares.

The people were represented after the PPP were banned. These people gave their power to the MPs.

It was the MPs that the people elected that decided not to support PTP (ex-PPP).

And Mr Banharn alluded during the election campaign to the fact that he was 'leant on' to change sides. The small parties were bulied and 'offered incentives' to change sides

So he's not going to change sides this time, so even if the PTP get banned, they will stay in power in their new guise. Even Yingluck won't get banned.

SO WHAT'S ALL THE fuc_kING FUSS ABOUT?

The fuss is about the fact that, like or dislike the PTP, they've shown, yet again, that they can't follow simple rules during campaigns which is understandable since they only come around once every few years, so planning/organizational time is limited.

I find this ending of the article very interesting

So while it may seem like a crushing defeat, it is still too early to tell. Whether Thaksin's sister can consolidate once again her brother's autocratic grip on power, annihilate his enemies, and allow him to return to power and pay back the likes of James Baker, Edelman, Robert Amsterdam, and Robert Blackwill their full "fees" or not will mark the progress of the globalists in their attempt to reestablish control of Southeast Asia and subsequently contain China. For now, the window of opportunity seems open for both sides, while time seems to be on the side of those favoring a multipolar world order.

http://www.prisonpla...s-to-power.html

Blah blah blah...yeah because Thailand's really all about China.

The ruling elite will not stop with their attempts to hold onto power at all cost until Thailand ends up in a civil war and the unspeakable happens. It has happened in other countries and it will sooner or later happen in Thailand. You cannot suppress the voices of your people forever and expect to get away with it.

Which ruling elite are you talking about? The one we have now or the one we had last week?

Both. They're not good at sharing, but they have to do it anyway.

Everyone I know in Thailand who doesn't work for the military or in Maptaphut have been waiting a very long time for this last election, and not to get Thaksin back, but to get Abhisit out.

I've heard the same story in BKK too. People who originally supported the coup voted for Thaksin last month because they'd lost faith in AW.

Conclusion: Dems need to stop focussing on TS and start repairing their own house.

Agreed, but how do you stop focusing on a greedy tycoon who won't go away?

It appears that some people have had a change of hearts. In another thread the very same people defending the move by the Democrats to dispute the decision of a majority of the Thai electorate were up in arms over some people's right to bring a civil suit when false allegations were made.

Yes, the Democrats can bring any action they can substantiate. It is part of the civil process of the peaceful resolution of disputes. it is up to an independent judiciary to decide the merits of the case. Is the judiciary independent enough to rule in an unbiased manner? However, it is obvious to anyone that understands, that the electorate spoke and that the Democrats are engaged in a last gasp to hold onto power. The Democrats have no mandate to govern. The party was repudiated at the polls. All that this does is further the perception of the voters that abandoned the Democrats ,that the Democrats will not respect the election results.

Until the decision is rendered, the PTP has a legal mandate to rule. If the PTP is politically savy they will respond head on to the harassment of the Democrats and will let loose a volley of countersuits and start doing everything legally possible to make the Democrats understand that. the people have spoken. In the meantime, the Democrats have undermined the stability of the nation and struck a blow against the nation. If people did not understand why there are such heated passions from PTP supporters, perhaps they will get it now. The Democrats are anti democratic and sore losers.

Soooo....if the PTP committed some type of electoral fraud it should be ignored b/c they received a majority of votes? Wow. I didn't realize simply falling into the majority allowed such a wide berth for bending the rules/laws. Yay for democracy!

This seems predictable from the democrats and it won't work for many reasons not least because the international community can see Pheu Thai has a huge mandate. The Americans for one would not be at all happy and the military know that. If they did try to cheat Pheu Thai out of its huge victory there would probably be civil war. I am interested to see how anyone can support this pathetic bad loser/ cant accept democracy attitude from the democrat party.I hope Abhisit supporters see him for the dishonest cheat that he is proving to be.

Hmmmmmm

Let's see .... Americans won't care about a party that violates electoral law (any party) being disbanded. America certainly won't care about a party that got less than 50% of the vote being knocked about for violating election laws. Enforcing electoral law isn't "cheating". I doubt Abhisit made this call since he stepped down from party leadership ....

I don't know that these charges will stick BUT Thaksin himself can be charged and sentenced in criminal court for his interference.

IF PTP gets knocked down for this the next Thaksin proxy party should still have enough votes in Parliament to stay in office and if they don't like the margin they can call early elections.

Who dragged the U.S. into this and why? Completely irrelevant.

Fact is it appeared to honor the rule of law when the PTP won a lot of seats, fair enough. And now it appears to also follow the rule of law that the Dems get to sue for election fraud. What's the problem either way?

I thought the people have chosen already ? In all "Democracy" voice of people is usually legitimate . I understand they might be disappointed but I don think it will help to reunited Thais.

Competely correct. If the people have chosen then the Democracts have to bow their heads to this desision.

I am not a great Thaksin fan. It was the Pheu Thai's election policy to bring Thaksin back to Thailand without jail

and the people have chosen Pheu Thai even with this program. I believe that they have a green light to bring him back

and he will have to be pardoned by the right authorities, because its the will of the people. This is unfortunate, but nothing

can be done to stop this from happening short of a coup.

Except for the fact that there are governing bodies that adjudicate this sort of matter since there are laws in this country, contrary to popular belief, and it looks likely at this point that some fairly important ones were broken.