Darrel

You really dont need to worry about the questions relating to liquidation because the simple answer is that a foreigner cannot legally own land in Thailand, even by subterfuge.

The closest that farangs get to owning land is to create/buy a company of which they can only own 49%. This company owns the land (and house) as a company asset. 51% of the company must be owned by Thai persons, and in order to retain control the farangs often create preference shares with majority voting rights. There are also techniques like collecting pre-signed sales contracts from the Thai persons, which can be used to keep control of the value, or getting loan notes (IOUs) from them. None of these are legal as the law is quite specific that the Thai persons have to put their own money into the venture, and not be using money from the farang, and that they should not be nominees.

The only safe way to own a house in Thailand is to lease some land and build a house with the correct building permissions in your name. You then own the house and have a secure tenancy on the land for 30 years, and possibly a second 30 years if you live that long. As a farang you will NEVER own the land yourself and anyone who tells you that you can is a liar.

The only thing that I dont understand is why the government doesnt just introduce 99 year leases (and tax them accordingly). This would cover nearly all buyers' needs, even those with young families who want to be sure to pass something on. I suppose the assumption is that a new Thai house will not last more than 30 years anyway, so there is no need to plan further ahead.

The first thing I do before signing any sales and purchase agreement is to get a copy of the title deed and ID and get my lawyer to verify at the Land office the vendor is not a Beach Road lady boy.

Far simpler just not to pay over any deposit. That way you have nothing to lose if the so-called vendor proves to be fake or otherwise unwilling to complete the deal.

I really fail to understand why anyone is defending the notion of unilateral deposits, which are of no benefit at all to buyers and only of help to vendors. Presumably all those defending them are themselves permanently selling and never buying, which puts them in that extraordinary group of owners of Thai property with several condos or houses for sale, few or no tenants and no cash. At the moment I seem to meet a new one like that every couple of days.

Interesting comments. Thanks. Any more?

Will you insist on the same when booking a new car?

It depends: if I was buying a car that was in stock (lke a house or condo is in stock) then I would pay no deposit at all; I would just hand over a cashier's cheque and drive it away. If for some reason they were waiting for stock then I would still not pay a deposit: I would just ask them to call me when they come in. If they couldnt manage that then I would just buy an identical car from another dealer that could manage it. If however I was ordering some very special one-off design, then yes I would expect to pay a small deposit. But in that case I would be buying from a main car dealer with the backing of a very large motor manufacturer, who would be unlikely to cancel my order on a whim and disappear with my money, and not from an unknown private property owner who is probably worth far less than I am and who for all I know doesnt even own the property he is trying to sell anyway.

Without some proper safeguards (like escrow) a vendor could easily promise to sell a condo or house to 30 different people at a low price, pocket 30 deposits of 10% and vanish on the first plane out, leaving the 30 buyers to argue about who gets what. Or even get many deposits and one full sale. And I wouldnt rely on the integrity of many Pattaya real estate agents to protect me from that. It's happened here with off-plan sales: why not with actual houses or condos?

And, to pose a more apt question, would you pay a deposit to someone selling you a used car here? If so, you must be absolutely nuts. That would be rather like paying a deposit to a Beach Road ladyboy.

As a total non-rider I have been advised that a Honda PCX would be suitable for short sedate journeys of a handful of km around the quieter roads in Pattaya/Jomtien, when I dont want the hassle of parking/driving a car. I'm also told that the seat opens up to provide a reasonable amount of (secure?) space for a few groceries, helmet etc.

All I'm interested in is having something comfortable, cheap and reliable. Automatic gears, electric start, decent suspension, good brakes. I'm not a boy racer and will probably never have a passenger on it. I weigh under 100kg.

Any comments would be helpful.

I would rather buy new than used, but do these things still tend to get stolen from condo carparks and the front of restaurants these days? Just wondering.

And how many beans have you given away?

None, as I thought I made abundantly clear. Nor would I, unless a vendor made a similar commitment.

Either the deposit works two ways and is made to a totally independent 3rd party or there is no deposit.

If I walk for 5 minutes in Pattaya I can see at least 100 breaches of various laws. Any day, any time of day. And there are probably at least 100 more that I dont even notice or know about. I suspect the same applies elsewhere.

Every now and again there is a "clamp-down" and some or all of the infringing parties may or may not be dealt with, in whatever fashion seems appropriate to those in charge.

Why does anyone imagine that the situation with farangs owning land via illegal nominee company structures is in any way different? Just like begging, playing the guitar without a permit, gambling, yaba-taking and driving a motorbike without a helmet or licence, it is illegal and one day those doing it will probably be looked into. The only real question is "when?". Just because many people do something doesnt make it legal de facto.

Personally I would rather my money was not invested in any sort of structure that isnt 100% legal. Property here is a dodgy enough game without having to worry about whether you legally own something, or whether your nominees will steal it from you, or whether the government will decide to sequester it or punitively tax you on it because you shouldnt be owning it in the first place.

As such I would never consider buying any property in Thailand in anything other than foreign name. And that name will be mine alone. And if the Thai government decides that this limits me to buying only condos, so be it. At least I know where I stand, and that if one day I want to sell (and can find a buyer ), at least I will be able to legally sell my unit on without any extra bother.

Yes, yes. Go to court in Thailand and spend the next 10 years waiting for a result. Wonderful. I have better things to do with my life, thanks.

A much simpler arrangement to ensure that both parties respect whatever terms they have agreed to is that both pay over an equivalent deposit to a totally independent and honest 3rd party. There is no reason whatsoever why a buyer should be expected to pay a deposit and a vendor not be expected to: as a group they are both just as likely (or unlikely) to default.

As I said, no one is getting a bean from me unless they put up an equivalent number of beans. And if a vendor doesnt like those entirely reasonable and equitable terms they can just look for another buyer (some hope!).

Astounding to see that Lek and Apex have recently put their prices up for breakfast from 110B to 150B (for dinner they go from 180 to 250). A pretty staggering increase, and such a coincidence that they should both choose the same time and amount!

For the time being Diana Inn, Diana Dragon and Casa Pascal (and others) are all unchanged. This makes them much better value.

I never liked the Lek and Apex breakfasts anyway, but the Apex looks really empty at the moment whenever I walk past. As far as I can see books of tickets are still being honoured, and I dare say that many of the few people in there now have actually paid the old price.

Just another example of the absurd practice of increasing prices when sales drop?

I'm amazed that any purchaser would consider paying any sort of deposit unless the vendor agrees to the same terms.

Why should a buyer suffer for pulling out, but a vendor be free to do it without penalty? Nuts to that.

When I sold my last house (in Europe) the 10% deposit was reciprocal. Had I not gone through with the sale at the agreed price it would have cost me 10%. And quite right too. The deposit money was, of course, held in escrow by a government agent. There is no way I would give even one Baht deposit directly to a vendor or real estate agent here. They are far too crooked to be trusted.

I'm running Windos 7 (64bit) and IE 8.

Just install IE9. IE8 is old news.

From the photo it looks like the meter in question is somewhat different to the meters on either side. It may, therefore, be an honest error that has been made by the people reading the meters. Or maybe not. It would be interesting to know whether other people getting high bills have a meter like that of the OP.

Either way, the OP should be contacting the building committee: their details should be on the noticeboard in the lobby. They are the ones who tell the management company what to do and if some sort of scam/error is happening then they are the ones who can instruct the management company to fix it. They can put huge pressure on the management company to sort it out. No individual tenant or owner can put the same pressure on.

Whether or not the committee in that building is any good will depend on who the members are. In that building I would have thought that a fair number of the members will be farang, and they would probably be more motivated to do something than Thai members might be. They may even be paying too much themselves, without knowing it.

My personal opinion of the electricity price is that I only pay the government rate. If a building or unit owner asks for more than the official rate then I just dont live in that unit. End of discussion. There are loads of other condo units around. If more people refused to be ripped-off then there would be a lot less people trying it on. And that applies world-wide, not just here.

As for the other tenants/owners; I am constantly amazed by the way that so many people go through life with no apparent knowledge or understanding of what bills they are paying and how accurate they are. I work on the assumption that every bill I get is probably wrong, and I check them all with no exceptions. This includes restaurant bills and supermarket checkouts and tax bills and bank statements. And over the years I have found that maybe 10% are indeed wrong, or include some item that I never received or didnt want. The figure is increasing year on year.

"11.25 million baht if anyone is interested."

There was a place very near Soi Buakow in one of the online classified ad sites the other day for just two to three hundred thousand. Seems more in touch with reality. Not that I would buy either at any price.

Has the madness stopped now or is it going on all night again?

I expect it to be quieter along 2nd Rd by midnight. I'll be asleep by then though so wont be going out. Today is the last/worst day.

... is it on again tomorrow?

No. For the love of God, no.

Well, it certainly didnt seem the same to me. I quite liked it 20 years ago. Living about 50 yards from where I live now I had no trouble at all going out for a meal in the evening back then. Tonight I have no chance (I'm glad I got the over-rice takeaways earlier!).

Only 3 hours left, thank heavens.

err... care to show me any adverts of "very nice places" in south of France?

I'm looking for a 4 BR*, approx. 500 sqm new-looking house (fully renovated is ok too), with maids quarters, living room, office, play room for the kids, snooker room and a approx. 14*7 meter pool, with en-suite bathrooms for all the bedrooms, on a minimum of 2 rai of land (approx. 2800 sqm), carport for 2 cars minimum.

That's approximatively what you can buy for 20m baht, and IT IS FULLY FURNISHED.

What you may consider nice and reasonable here is probably not what would be considered nice and reasonable there. The way buildings are constructed makes this obligatory as the house you buy there will still be standing 200 years from now, unlike something bought here which will be very glossy when new but will probably fall down in a few years. So you would get less space but better quality. If you could build there to Thai standards (and no reputable builder would, nor would he be permitted to) then you could probably get something nearly as large for the same price. That said, I know of very nice places in very desirable areas of Provence with 5 en-suite bedrooms, perhaps 250+sqm living space, big pool, no crappy neighbours, 4000 or 5000sqm of land on sale for under 30MB (equiv). And houses actually sell daily at that price, unlike here where they will just sit on sale for years on end, before being reduced to 6MB and still not selling (as we have seen).

Above all, many of the local inhabitants in Europe could some day aspire to buying your house, which would make it a not at all unusual or unreasonable purchase. Indeed you will find many thousands of similar places in all sorts of towns and villages covering vast areas, unlike here where the expensive places are pretty well all within a few minutes drive of Pattaya.

Here you will be living in something that the average local resident would never be able to buy in a million years and which would make it stick out like a sore thumb (with all the security issues that entails), especially when compared with houses in areas just a few minutes (seconds?) drive away.

I think I know which places are overvalued.

An unusual idea. Why not just sell and buy?

I'm not saying where I live until I move out. Otherwise it will soon be full of people seeking a decent connection speed and that will be that!

You asked for the connection stats and I gave them. For what it's worth, the place I'm staying in seems to have its connection capped at 4Mbits, and I connect via one of the 3 wifi access points in the building (one of which hardly ever works, and the third doesnt work at all). The one I am on is "g" and the one that sometimes works is "n". The provider is indicated in the speedtest results and the connection is ADSL. They use a crappy old modem provided by the ISP that hangs every day or so, and I have to log in and reboot it to get it working again. Luckily the hotel didnt change the default modem password and so I can do it from my room without them knowing. The ADSL loses sync several times a day also. I'm not sure why but I suspect the crappy modem.

there are no "very nice places" to buy in Europe for 20m baht with comparable comfort, climate, location, facilities (swimming pool, anyone?) and space.

Darrel, you may get a low-key 3 BR house without a pool in a nice spot in cold and rainy Brittany for that price, no pool though.

Sorry, that's just nonsense. 20M Baht is 500,000 Euros. You can get a lot for that, with a pool, and in the south, not in Brittany. I know. I lived there for many years.

The climate, of course, is not comparable. Southern France has a mediterranean climate and here it is tropical.

absurd is to compare "a THB 20 million home in Thailand" with "a very nice place in France" without specifying any details. that applies especially to "nice places" located at the Mediterranean where €UR 500k will buy a "hut" between Monaco and Toulon, a modest dwelling between Toulon and Montpellier and rowhouse from Montpellier all the way towards the spanish border.

none of these "nice places" will have even 25% of the living area or 20% of the comfort that a THB 20m home provides in the area Rimmer mentioned. not to talk about the french taxman who levies a fancy percentage of income tax, property tax and value added tax on goods and services which have to be taken into consideration when selecting a place to live.

i stopped counting after spending in excess of THB 25m for the construction of my house and several years making improvements. we are living in it since august 2006 and without consulting my PC or use a pocket calculator i claim that the house was fully paid for by income tax we did not pay to the taxman of our home country.

I lived and worked in the south of France for 33 years, in Provence. Did you? How many houses have you owned there? I can show you places for 40MB (equiv) in private valleys, constructed to state of the art building standards, with 300+sqm of living space, all well finished. Not on the sea-front, admittedly, but the ones in Huay Yai aren't either.

And just because you have spent 25MB on your house doesnt make it worth 1 Baht more than someone else might be prepared to pay for it. So it will be interesting to see how much you get for it if you sell it one day. And of course how you came by the money you used to buy it is totally beside the point. You might as well say you got it by selling drugs or guns or your mother, or by winning the lottery: it has no bearing on anything.

Even more to the point: the houses mentioned in France actually change hands on a daily basis at those prices, unlike all this Thai property which just sits there, complete with "for sale" sign.

20m for a house here these days is not so strange, have a look around Pheonix/Huay Yai area - 40, 50, 70M and upwards is not uncommon.

I know: I've seen some. And not one of them was worth anything approaching the price they were supposedly for sale at.

20M in Thailand is absurd, 40M is doubly absurd.

I had to aim my motorcycle directly at him to avoid getting wet.

You certainly run a greater risk of being soaked on a motorbike or baht-bus.

When I was having supper on a small soi near Soi Buakow at around 8pm yesterday evening, the massage parlour girls and kids opposite were still targeting any and every motorbike that went past, but hardly any pedestrians. After eating, I walked straight by (on the opposite side of the narrow soi admittedly) without incident. Another farang wearing a smart white shirt was not so lucky, and boy was he annoyed! "<deleted> you!", he shouted. "<deleted> you back!", shouted the girls and kids.

Not quite the pleasant water sprinkling ceremony that the Thai Tourist Authority likes to make out that it is. It wasnt like that 20 years ago.

Four newly built Houses close to me started life at 20m baht...

How absurd! You can buy a very nice place on the Med in France for that sum.

Why bother with leases when an Usufruct can be for life and does not attract the same taxes as a lease?

Because you can sell leasehold property (especially if the lease is for a reasonable number of years).