Mark1971

HI all

Thanks for all the useful info you fill into this forum.

1 question I have, I think Jim talked about it earlier. It is estimated to harvest about 3 to 5 KG of rubber per tree per year (all depending on age, soil, fertilizer ect. ect.). The question i have is when we say 3 to 5 KG as a estimate is that dry rubber content or is this 3 to 5 KG of wet rubber. ??? (Jim??).

Another question for all of you. If you got a offer to buy land with 5 to 6 year old Yang on it what would you be willing to pay per rai in your area? i know many factors would affect the price but in average.?

By the way i found below link to a web site where people sell secondhand trucks, tractors, farm equipment ect. (all in thai) but easy to get a overview of what stuff cost's in this country.

http://www.truck2hand.com

maybe useful for some.

Claus

Claus,

3 to 5 Kg / Tree / Year is DRC.

Personally I wouldn't pay any premium over the price of empty land, for land with 5 to 6 year old Rubber trees.

I am sure that the trees won't be the type I want & won't be planted & cared for the way I expect.

Bad decisions & poor treatment of trees in the first few years can never be recovered.

That they look 30 to you is completely relevant.....its relative to your taste and preference.

Would love to stay and haggle pumpkin, but I'm off to bed with an older woman....not older than me, but older than the 30yo's that you like.....much older in fact.....37ish....and thats from a photo too.

So tell me how do you know how old are the ladies in the photo? And you know my taste and preference???

How old they look is completely irrelevant unless you can state some way of telling age from a photo.

CMK,

I would love to know if all of these pointless arguments you have on Thai Visa are just your way of having a laugh because you are bored.

we have a plot of 6 rai, 3 yr old trees that are doing alright. about 10 mths ago we had the space between the trees tilled. that went ok. during most of the year the ground is fairly hard and firm but during the rainy season it is easy to sink ankle deep in mud. Wife now says to again till in between the trees and I say why bother as we've kept the weeds down and trees in the forest grow fine without tilling, plus tilling is bound to tear up some roots.

what y'all doing on your farms ?

Ploughing near the trees is not a good idea after they have been planted, it will damage the root system of the trees & may also increase soil erosion (dependant upon site specifics).

+1 vote for chiangmaikelly.

You can just see him rock back in his chair with a wry smirk when his quips go straight over everybody's heads. He has fun, he's honest and he's very knowledgable.

If there was a category for the most persistent poster Chiangmaikelly would win hands down.

Maybe I am a bit thick, but 100% of his quips go straight over the top of my head.

"however you seem to completely ignore "

You could find a softer way. The way that you write this comes across as an attack. While people often are open to discussion, direct criticism, I find is usually met with the same; on this forum or in real life. If you want soft and easy, be soft and easy. Don't get your feelings hurt if you blast someone and they blast you back.

just a few words, and from my side this is closed

i havent read any mention in your post i replied too about that aspect, thus that post completely ignored this points i addressed.

it wasnt any attack, nor intended to be; a fact stated.

and second: notice in the big analysis that my nick is not Canada, nor NZ this, or Kiwithat...my first language is not English, with any one dialect or accent, or whatever you wish to call.

It is a second language in best, thus where it seems raw or not softened enough, it may just well stand to my limited vocabulary, and not in any intention to attack.

While the forum English, i dont think we all have to be a native speaker to participate, but maybe i am wrong there, as sure by far the majority seem to be native.

While Ting Tong could have made his comment in a less confrontational way (explained by English not being his native language), I think that the points he made are valid ones, which many of us ignore.

A good way to value land or any other asset is to look at its rental yield, based upon this method of valuation, much of the farming land in Thailand currently looks very expensive.

If the land sells for 100k / Rai & rents for 2k / Rai / Year, renting the land & investing your capital in income yielding assets you can personally own doesn't seem a bad idea to me.

The price of Thai farmland can't continue to rise at the current rate forever, just as house prices in Spain / Ireland / USA couldn't.

The only people that make real money out of agriculture are the merchants, be they suppliers or buyers. If your wife comes from a farming background I doubt very much she'll be too excited about getting involved. Ask yourself why she has a foreign husband.

If you really want to 'invest' and you have 4 million at your disposal you could look into buying an established rubber plantation. You have to very very careful though. Firstly, land title, chanot or nor sor sam, otherwise forget it. Look for uncut trees about 6 years old. Research tree variety, soil composition, what is under the soil and location. Location is important as rubber is fairly new to issan, you need to find a site that has good rainfall and climate, elevation etc. I can't stress the need for research too much. This is an investment right, so your not going to do the work yourself. Cutting rubber is done at night and the latex is collected in the morning. The common way of operating is that you engage workers that live on plantation, so you need to build accommodation. They do the work for 40% of the take, you have to buy the fertiliser and manage the sales. You dont need to process into sheets, but they are easy to transport and can be kept for better prices. To process liquid latex to sheets you need power and water, not rain water. You need to get experienced rubber workers, preferably from out of town as locals will scam you. Out of town workers will scam you too, but at least they lack local knowledge. You need to be very careful as latex production can be chemically induced to the detriment of the trees' future production, ie it's fuc_ked. Rubber prices are very low right now and future projections are not good. At ten years old the tree starts to hit its peak, but can be tapped at 7 years. Once the trees are exhausted, there is a timber value of about a million baht a rai. So for the sake of argument 30 rai will be worth 30 million in timber for 25 year old trees at today's prices that is. My son works 20 rai in Surat, his share varies from 20k to 30k a month during tapping season.

Good luck.

There's no real estate network to help you find a place, it's all word of mouth. Not to worry, there are so many many 'chancers' on commission out there that once the word gets out you're looking for rubber they'll be coming to you, and keep coming. Trying to find out how much you can expect to earn is almost impossible. Those selling land overstate it massively, in fact there is a thread topic on this site I'd trust more than anything.

Think you will find that unless you have Malaysia rubber clones there is no million Baht a rai for lumber, Thailand is full of Rimm 600 and some 251s, not much of a return on lumber. Jim

I tend to agree with Jim, 1 Million baht a Rai stumpage for RRIM600 timber doesn't match my numbers.

The figures I have are 60K Baht a Rai for 21 year old RRIM 600 trees.

Mark,

Thanks for the research and write-up on that. Very interesting to see the different planting densities and the resulting yields (latex and lumber). Unfortunately, it seems everyone (including falangs) can fall into the "do it how its always been done" mentality. It is especially difficult to overcome when you're facing such a large financial commitment along with a long term commitment.

Good work digging that info up!

-k

Kolohe,

I have already completed all of the research, it will just take me some time to summarise the important points in a structured & logical way.

I will continue posting step by step through the plantation life cycle.

My findings are radically different to the standard way Rubber plantations are manged in Thailand.

Doing things the way they have always been done is very tempting in Thailand.

A plantation is a major long term investment & Thais (including my wife) are comfortable copying everyone else, but feel very nervous about doing things differently.

This concept of not loosing face is deeply engrained in them, which is exactly what they think will happen if they do things differently & fail.

Even if there is no logical link between doing things differently & problems encountered, they will think there is.

I believe in my research, however even I may be tempted to just do things the Thai way to keep the wife fully onboard.

2. Planting density.

Before you determine planting density it is critical to identify if you will intercrop a cash crop, either during the immature period or even during the mature tapping phase.

Another option you may consider would be to intercrop with a cash crop during the immature phase, before integrating livestock (normally chickens, goats or sheep) during the mature tapping phase.

All of these options would require a decreased planting density from the one proposed below, which is designed to maximise latex & timber production / Rai.

The current recommended planting density for latex & timber production is:

112 trees / Rai.

4m x 3.6m

This is a 47% increase in the number of trees / Rai compared to the standard Thai method of 7m x 3m.

No reduction in the amount of latex / tree / tap was observed at 112 trees / Rai.

The advantage of the standard Thai method is that it allows space for cash crops to be grown during the immature phase.

Studies have been conducted up to 160 trees / Rai, 4m x 2.5m, this planting density provided the most latex / Rai, however the amount of latex, per tree, per tap decreased.

Interestingly for timber production the higher number of trees per Rai resulted in the most useable timber / tree.

I will try to summarise my research into the latest rubber plantation management & production techniques.

I will do this step by step as it is quite an extensive subject.

1. Tree clonal type, RRIM 3001 (Latex Timber clone).

Considering the whole life cycle of a rubber plantation there are 3 phases, it is therefore important to consider the costs & expenditure during each phase.

Comparisons are between RRIM 3001 & RRIM 600 (The standard rubber tree planted in Thailand).

1.1 Planting & immature phase.

During this time there is no income and substantial expenditure.

RRIM 3001 will reduce this period by 40%, from 7 years to 5 years.

1.2 Tapping phase.

During this phase income is derived from the sale of latex.

RRIM 3001 will increase average latex yield by 78%, from 280 Kg / Rai, to 500 Kg / Rai.

1.3 Felling for timber.

Around 20 - 25 years is normally the optimum time to fell the trees & sell the timber for a one off capital gain.

RRIM 3001 will provide 2 cubic meters of timber / tree after 15 years.

RRIM 600 will produce 0.42 cubic meters of timber / tree after 21 years.

RRIM 3001 will increase timber by 476% in 70% of the time.

mark,

I'd tried to find info on puncture tapping and came to a dead end. You read anything on it?

Google rubber puncture tapping. This link gives some info on it.

http://medinfo.psu.a.../2000/tsir1.htm

Nice find Mosha! I have been trying to see if there was any info on this for the last couple of years but my Google skills weren't up to the task. Its interesting to note that the positive is more latex production but the negative is less DRC. They claim that the household's income went up so one would assume that the increase in output offsets the decrease in DRC. I would be interested to see these things quantified a little more tho.

-k

I have quickly skim read the link from Mosha.

I think this link refers to RRIMFLOW or a similar system.

When they use the term "puncture tap" in this document they are referring to the puncture made into the tree, which allows the stimulation gas to enter the tree.

As with anything there are pros & cons to these systems, however they have been extensively researched, have clear operating criteria & have been commercially used for over a decade.

mark,

I'd tried to find info on puncture tapping and came to a dead end. You read anything on it?

Glenn,

I think the term "puncture tapping" originates from trials in the early 90's.

The objective of the trials was to discover techniques which would reduce the skill & time required for rubber tapping.

One idea at that time was to puncture the tree with hollow metal pins & extract the latex through the center of the pins.

I don't think this system ever became commercially available, however this research led to modern commercially available tapping systems like RRIMFLOW & G FLEX which are commercially available for mature trees >15 years old.

I will try to pull together a post summarising my understanding of the latest technology & my thinking regarding these systems.

If anyone is ever looking for detailed information about Rubber in Thailand,

the Rubber Research Institute of Thailand posts journals on www.Rubberthai.com.

As well as all the latest information, they have scanned in their old journals going back over 30 years.

All of the information is in Thai, so you would need to drag the wife away from the Thai Lakorn to explain the details to you.

However they have some excellent research & very clear step by step information on every aspect of the rubber business.

From detailed information on all RRIT tree clones, information about diseases & prevention, through to Jim's favourite subject how to make a drying house for sheet (Volume 32 issue 2).

Personally I still think the Malaysian Rubber board are quite a few steps ahead of Thailand with Latex timber clones, LITS, RRIM Flow, G FLEX, CUT, Mortex, Mucuna Bracteata.

I tried to discuss some of the Malaysian research regarding plantation management on here earlier & didn't feel that there was a great deal of interest in doing things differently to the Thai way.

If anyone is interested I could try to summarise my understanding of the latest Malaysian best practice & how it should improve plantation profitability.

I think most of the expats living in CM, are retired and living off their pensions and or investments. Thailand would be a tough place to make a living wage and be able to save for retirement.

While I wouldn't say the OP can't find what he seeks, his field is generally not so valuable as to command a premium. I agree that probably most expats in CM are retired or on pensions and investments. If i moved there I'd add to their numbers.

What is valuable? IT? Marketing? banking?

It might not be valuable for some people!

Maybe you are not aware of Climate change, forest degradation, loss of biodiversity, resources depletion!

You or your your kids generation will know soon enough what is valuable and what is not!

thanks for the post anyway

Tropico,

No one is arguing that your chosen field of work is not valuable to our enviroment.

However your original question was how to make 100,000 THB per month in Chiang Mai, therefore it was you who inferred that value was to be measured in financial terms in the context of this thread.

As you have already discovered it is not easy to find a job which will consistently pay you this much money in Chiang Mai, based upon your skill set.

If it is any consolation it is also not possible for me to earn 100k THB per month in Chiang Mai, which is why I am working in a less desirable location & saving for an early retirement.

Life doesn't always offer us perfect solutions, and we sometimes have to make the best compromises we can.

If you're in the education field, check out prem. What is your master's degree in? What were you doing for work beforehand?

I have a Master in Natural Resources Management and have been working in forest conservation for the last 7 years. I have managed project for reforestation of degraded areas around Chiang mai.

You can forget about using that degree and job experience working for a Thai company; if they need anyone with these abilities they will find a Thai to hire at a small fraction of 100k a month. If you want to stay in the same line of work you'll have to find another U.N. or NGO job, which will probably require leaving Chiang Mai, or work for a big forest product company, which will definitely require leaving Chiang Mai.

In short, unless you have some other valuable abilities that can be applied locally, you are unlikely to come anywhere close to 100k a month in Chiang Mai.

Based upon the information you have provided I have to agree with the comment above.

100K a month with your specialist skill set will be very difficult to find as a local hire in Chiang Mai.

You will probably have to move where your specialist skills are currently in demand, or adjust your budget if you want to live in Chiang Mai.

I hope you are lucky & prove us wrong.

Why does it cost you 100,000 to live here ?

I have a masters degree and Yes maybe in BKK I could get work for 100K but I don't want to live anywhere near there.

I and my family live very well on just a fraction of what you think you need a month. Do you really need to live in that top 1%

It does not cost me 100,000 to live in Chiang Mai but house rental, food, schooling for my daughter etc, amounts for about 50,000/month.

I'd like to save money for a later stage of my life and possibly buy a modest house.

Tropico,

Over an extended time period you won't consistently make 100k THB a month in Chiang Mai as a local hire.

You could make this much working for yourself, if you choose to work for yourself there seem to be two avenues available to you.

1. Income derived locally in Chiang Mai.

In my opinion you will have do some research & make a substantial capital investment (10 Million THB +).

If your business has a low capital entry barrier, if you are successful your business model will be copied by locals who are happy earning a tenth of your target income.

2. Income derived globally.

Set up an Internet based business, you could make your target income and a lot more.

Just remember that there are millions of other people out there who would love to live in paradise, making an income from the internet.

Personally I think your best chance to make the money you are looking for with your experience & qualifications is to go back to farang land for a couple of years.

Do a teacher training course in your home country, work as a teacher for a bit & start applying for teaching jobs in Chiang Mai International schools as an expat.

Gambling is a massive problem with Thai women in my area (UK not Thailand).

One lady has recently divorced & 4 months ago received her final divorce settlement of £40,000 (2 Million THB).

She phoned my wife up today asking for help, she hasn't got enough money to pay her rent this month!

This lady works full time as a cleaner at the hospital, probably makes about £1,200 a month. (60K THB).

She has been going to the casino, and lost over £10,000 (500K THB) a month every month for the last 4 months!!

My wife said that unfortunately she can't help her financially, and is going to drive her to the Citizens Advice Bureau on Monday.

No sum of money is enough for a gambling addict.

I have seen many Thai girls come to our area over the years I have been with my wife.

The first year can be difficult for them if there is too much changing from there previous life in Thailand.

For example.

Previous life in Thailand.

Working in a bar in a major city like Bangkok, always loads of her mates around, plenty of easy money coming her way, every day is a party / excitement, Thai street food never more than 10 steps away, all expenses paid weekends at the beach in Pattaya or Phuket with that weeks new benefactor.

New life.

2 Bedroom council flat in the rough end town, 7 months pregnant, mid winter -3 degrees & sleeting outside, can't drive so has to wait in the cold for the bus to town, husband at work all day, no mates yet as always stuck in the flat, no family, doesn't know where to get Thai food shopping.

It's a wonder 90%+ of the Thai girls who turn up stick around.

as you say 90%+ do stick around, job and or language school plus not living in the middle of nowhere helped for me at first and I thoroughly reccomend it....

other way round if I was placed in her village and left to sit about all day with nothing to do I would not last 3 days...either that or get on the lao khao

Yes 90%+ do stick around.

But only 50% stay with the same man they first came over with.

Things that will help your Thai wife settle in more quickly in your home country, and improve your chances of a successful marriage.

Get her driving lessons & her own car. (This will give her a lot more confidence & independence).

Ask her to register at the local college for ESOL, cooking, maths or whatever takes her fancy.

High speed Internet in your home, so she can Skype her friends, EBAY shopping, Facebook watch Thai Lakorn or do whatever Thai women do on the Internet. (These seem to be the only things my wife uses a computer for).

Bring her to your country in Spring, so she can enjoy 6 months of good weather while she settles in.

Find out where the local Asian / Thai supermarkets are, these are good places for her to meet other Thai women as well as do her shopping.

Buy her the best rice cooker she can find.

If she wants to work let her, but don't push her into until she is settled & relaxed at home.

Give her a little project, like redecorating the house in her own style.

Open a bank account for her & automatically transfer an agreed sum of money to her each week or month, so she can spend it herself.

If she has children from a previous relationship, let her bring them with her if she wants to.

If she is pregnant when she comes, talk to her about getting a 3 - 6 month visa for her mam or sister to live with you & help out with the new baby.

I have seen many Thai girls come to our area over the years I have been with my wife.

The first year can be difficult for them if there is too much changing from there previous life in Thailand.

For example.

Previous life in Thailand.

Working in a bar in a major city like Bangkok, always loads of her mates around, plenty of easy money coming her way, every day is a party / excitement, Thai street food never more than 10 steps away, all expenses paid weekends at the beach in Pattaya or Phuket with that weeks new benefactor.

New life.

2 Bedroom council flat in the rough end town, 7 months pregnant, mid winter -3 degrees & sleeting outside, can't drive so has to wait in the cold for the bus to town, husband at work all day, no mates yet as always stuck in the flat, no family, doesn't know where to get Thai food shopping.

It's a wonder 90%+ of the Thai girls who turn up stick around.

I am trying to do the right thing but it seems too rough ahead with her and her family. Considering jumping ship anything I should worry about

Yes, there is something you need to worry about.

Your unborn child.

You need to decide if you are going to be a father to the child, or are you going to walk away.

Often the family just want to see a large sum of cash at the wedding, to maintain face in the community.

This can be borrowed & immediately returned.

You can even agree to pay it for real at a set point in the future, when you can afford it.

With realestate selling for cheaper then you bought can be painfull.

If you owned it for say 10 years and sell for 30% lower it is actually a lot more that you loose than the 30%

With an average 4% inflation in 10 years you already lost about 30% in value.

Every 100.000 would represent only a value of 70.000 after 10 year. The price would have to increase almost 45% to keep the same value.

Meaning 100.000 after 10 years should sell for 145.000 to keep up with inflation.

If you sold for 70.000 you actually only have around 45% of your value left. 55% is gone......

I don't live in it. I don't have to buy a new house. It's bricks or money. I want the money now. Assuming a buyer can be found. I have the thai gene of wanting an easy life in me, and i can't eat bricks, and owning bricks doesn't negate the need for me to work and earn money! If i can get anywhere like 20,000 baht a month off interest that goes a long way towards my monthly bills and cost of living. And obviously i don't take out of the lump sum.

But if the world goes boom with its currencies my cash may suddenly disappear or become a worth a whole load less than now. But there you go, i'm done with the bricks!

And that when 'bricks' are actually the most stable investment you can ever make.

Cash will devalue and get used up very quickly if it is not invested. Unfortunately that is the current situation.

Having 'stuff' is one way of protecting your wealth, but not many things have a return on investment.

If you are not savvy with financial investments the changes that you loose it all is pretty big. Again bricks can go up and down in value but they never go to zero. And when it is rented out, the rent follows inflation so that at least you can keep up with it.

In the current financial world there are not many choices for a secure investment.

OP is making a smart move selling his property in OZ in my opinion.

Real estate can be a good long term investment, however there are two rules I adopt when buying investment properties.

1. I always buy within 10 miles of my own home. (Preferably within 3 miles).

2. Purchase price should not exceed 200x the monthly rental income, ideally it should be around 150x.

Aus$ has been very very strong lately, it could quickly correct by 20 or 30%.

Now might be a good time to move your capital into a mix of currencies, or THB the currency of the country you live in.