Mark1971

...some thoughts .

..guess this was the wifes idea?

..who informed you about the Chanote being issued?..."free beer tomorrow"? Still waiting for a paved road past our farm "promised" by head man 7 years ago...

...Sounds like you should ask someone other than "interested" parties to evaluate the trees...

..the ROI in rubber is certainly better than many investments but as Jim says, being an absentee gentleman farmer makes it a high risk investment..not to mention the ulcers..

However all the due diligence/research in the world will certainly help but it ain't for the faint of heart.

That said many Farangs are doing it and enjoying it and you should not let us know alls stop you if that is what YOU really want to do....will never know if I would have done it if TV and the like info was available when .......it is a nice life style for sure...

Think if I was your age the last thing I would be thinking about was getting into farming in Thailand...555

Hi, Originally my idea once I visited our families existing farm nearby. Chanote info is from the villagers. Our families farm was converted to Chanote two months ago and they said they are 'working their way around' to the area of the new farm in 2013. But I appreciate this is Thailand and this may be 'extended' for a longer period.

It's certainly one of those if you don't try you'll never know things. I already have investments and property in the UK and Europe.

I'm hoping to break even in 50-60 months (investment of 1.77m THB). Does that sound crazy to you?

Cheers for the pointers, Tom.

Hmm sounds like you are on the ball.....5 years should get you out from under..think our first 25 rai ( about 1milbt.)...took about 4 at 30-50bt kilo cup so it's not beyond the realms so to speak. Just keep your expectations realistic and I am sure you will be fine....Unfortunately it is a fact that "they" being some families or ....assume that you are infinitely rich and that any "extras" they can gain will not be missed and they will not be held accountable......since you know nothing ,foreigner yadda yadda...etc...sad but true....something we have to live with...good luck

d

At current Rubber prices I don't understand how it is possible to return the initial 1.77M Baht in 5 years, on 960 trees (12 Rai @ 80 trees / Rai).

To me it would make a good investment if the owner wanted to tap his own trees.

If someone else is doing all of the work and taking 50% for their effort the pay back time would be much longer.

(Approximately 15 years based upon my previous calculation).

OP,

My knowledge on this subject is purely second hand & from research.

There are many members here who have real hands on experience, which is invaluable.

The wife & MIL purchased 200 Rai in Chiang Rai last year, so I have been extensively researching the details before my BIL plants the trees.

We are in the UK until I retire in 10 years, so there is no need for me to rush.

Land title is not Chanote, but the wife & MIL said that's the way it is in their village & the land was priced appropriately.

The wife owns the land, so if she is happy with the price & title deeds so am I.

As with any investment in Thailand, in the very worst case we would just walk away from it.

What is the price / Kg your family are getting for the liquid latex?

(I have never seen the price of rubber, sold in this manner).

The type of tree & how they have been looked after are very important, RRIT251 should give 1.7x the amount of latex a RRIM 600 tree will.

It would be interesting to see your ROI calculations, after you clarify these inputs.

A very rough ROI calculation assuming a 50/50 split with the tappers, RRIM 600 trees in average condition, no additional ongoing investment by you. (Fertiliser / maintenance paid for by the tappers, pickup running costs are paid for by the tappers, you don't build a sheet factory).

960 trees @ 5Kg DRC / Year = 4800 Kg / Year

4800 Kg @ 50 Baht / Kg = 240,000 Baht / Year

50 / 50 split with the tappers =120,000 Baht / Year

ROI = 6.6%

15 Years before you recover your initial investment.

OP,

I assume that your Brother / Sister in law are going to tap the trees & manage the plantation, while you & your wife take a % of the income.

Here are a number of things you should carefully consider before you invest.

How stable / reliable / honest are your wife's family?

This whole investment relies on them be 100% reliable & honest, over a period of many, many years.

What is your planned return on invested capital?

Could you achieve a similar return with a less risky investment?

(Many Blue Chip UK Stocks pay a 6-8% dividend).

What type of tree clone is planted?

Some of the modern clones RRIT 251, RRIM 3001, JVP80 give a much higher latex yield than the traditional RRIM 600 clones.

How well have the trees been cared for?

Has fertiliser been applied?

Has a nitrogen fixing legumeous cover crop been planted?

What access is there to the land?

If you have to access via someone else's land, what would happen if you are refused access in the future?

Is there a source of water in the dry season?

You refer to liquid latex, when calculating potential income make sure you factor in that liquid latex has a 34% dry rubber content, the other 66% is water. When referring to cost / kg it is normally the dry rubber content which is being quoted.

Good luck.

Any Farang investing everything they have in an Isaan farm they can never legally own & relying on this as their only source of income is taking a major risk in my opinion.

That is not to say it can't work out well, as Jim and others on here have proved.

However there are so many things that can go wrong (Not only with the farming, but also with your personal relationships), it is probably the exception that make this a reliable sole source of income for 10, 20 or 30 years.

Personally I find the farming forum very interesting, however when I retire any income from farming in Thailand will be purely supplemental.

aeon atm at central mall there is no 150 baht fee......aeon is at end of mall closest to the highway near all the other banks...

The wife set up an extra UK account with Barclays & gave the MIL the card, when she needs money the MIL uses a Bank in Chiang Saen & always gets charged 150 Baht.

I don't think the MIL gets down to Chiang Rai very often, are there any ATM's in Chiang Saen that don't charge a fee?

Thanks.

ok a while back i mentioned talk of this 408 tree variety , just got back to Phon Pisai and a relative told me he waited along with 2500 other thais to collect 3 new sample trees of the 408 variety ...this was carried out by the govt research farm in Rattanawapi ... apparently people came from as far as Trang to do this ... my relative paid others 200 baht to line up with id card in hand so that he could gather as many samples to start grafting ... i have no other info on this tree ... which is why i posted a few months back asking ..anyone else got any updates about this new beast ?

RRIT 408

This clone has been developed by the RRIT, to perform well in the East of Thailand which is prone to long periods without rain.

The latex yield is 352Kg / Rai / Year which is more than the standard RRIM 600 tree, but less than RRIT 251 or RRIM 3001.

OP,

I am in a similar situation, living in the UK with 2 kids & a Thai wife.

Although I think I am a few years older than you.

I often think about moving to Thailand, currently the following things have stopped me.

1. Education.

My children are British, this isn't about their passports it is how they feel about themselves.

I know a few kids & adults Thai/American (Living in Thailand), Japanese/English who are messed up.

They seem unhappy because they don't really understand or fit into a culture.

In the case of the Thai / American kid, he would be much happier living in the States, rather than a rural village in Thailand.

In the case of the Japanese / English they often struggle in Japan, and want to return to the West.

Knowing my kids, if we move to Thailand the only option I would consider is a full International School.

That isn't to say that this is the best, or only option for everyone, as every child & family is different.

For some a Thai education will be best, for others a Bilingual school may be the best option.

2. Finances.

International school fees are £10,000 per child, per year.

With 2 kids £20k a year for 13 years is a lot of money.

Family Medical Insurance is also expensive.

I can't legally work in Thailand, so I have to be sure I can support the family with income from my investments in the UK.

(Worst case you have to be prepared to walk away from any investment you make in Thailand).

Maybe I am too cautious in my approach, but we won't be moving to Thailand until I am sure that we will never have to struggle financially.

Because I never want to be forced into returning to the UK to work when I am in my 50's or 60's.

Other people will be more relaxed about some of these things, but this is my personal view.

Moving back to your original question, we visited a few places & did some research about schools & where to live as a family in Thailand.

Bangkok. Too big, too busy, not for us. Best options for schooling.

Chiang Mai. City is not as pretty or scenic as we expected, nice housing in the surrounding countryside. Good options for schooling.

Hua Hin / Cha Am. Nice & clean, just the right size, good options for housing, No suitable options for schooling.

Phuket. Some good housing options in the center of the Island, although you have to pay a premium. Main Int School looked good but expensive, though more schools are now opening.

Chiang Rai. Nice city, just the right size for us. They have a new International School though I am not sure of the standard.

This forum has a wealth of information on a variety of different subjects.

Despite searching, there is very little information available relating to Oil Palm plantations.

I am trying to evaluate the potential of Oil Palm as an investment for the wife.

My wife has family in Phuket & Chiang Rai.

Obviously the mainland near Phuket is OK for oil palm. (Except the high land costs).

What be the result if it was planted in Chiang Rai? (Reduced yield due to less rain, or complete non starter).

It would be very interesting to understand the basics, here are some points of interest.

Please reply or expand as you see fit.

Which regions of Thailand can it be grown in?

Plantation establishment basics, costs, time to establish etc?

Best type of oil palm for high yield?

Kg Yield / Year / Rai ?

Market price / Kg?

Costs / Year / Rai, Labour, Fertiliser, Transport etc?

Thanks

Mark

Some kids are bad and need an occasional beating from parents or teachers, some kids are good and a beating does them a lot of harm.

Only you know your own children & if they deserve this treatment or not.

If you think that your children shouldn't be treated like this, ask yourself how you will protect them from this abuse.

Personally I wouldn't waste time trying to get the school to deal with this problem.

I would move the kids to a better school, and would simply tell the head teacher of their current school why I moved them.

Varee School has an International annex.

We were considering relocating to Chiang Mai and had a tour of Varee & was quite impressed with the teaching and facilities for the price.

I was also impressed by PTIS, but the fees are very high.

Hi to all.

We are trying to supplement our income.So we (wife and I)looked around and asked a lot of questions.

Banana trees.are what some people do.We looked and checked out 1 farm with massive nam wa growing between the rubber trees.Also down near Chumpon we saw some finger bananas growing in amongst the yang.

Middle men will come to the farm and give us 7baht per kilo,(Our friend averages 100baht per tree) and middle men do the work.Local resturants will come and cut and buy the flowers for 2 baht each.Seems like money for nothing as the banana trees get free fertilizer from the rubber trees.So we went to Sukothai and got 345 small nam wa trees from a friend of my wife's for 3baht each and our Myanmar worker planted them.They are showing growth slowly.Within 1.5 years we should be able to harvest.We will go back to Sukothai soon and get another 700.1 banana tree for every rubber tree.Total of 1000 trees x 100 baht per tree is good extra money.Also we were told within 4 years can have a harvest every month.Giving us an extra income off this farm of not less than 300,000baht per year.

Also if you have 100 trees (1000 KG)of bananas ready to sell.I'm thinking ,load up the ford and sell them for 14baht per kilo at the banana market in southern Bangkok.Well worth the trip.

Another good 1 is paw paw.We will do this on our mountain(cliff face )yang farm.We are just waiting for the wet season to start

Anybody had a go at this or like to try.Please give us a message and let us know how you are going.Maybe we can compare notes and learn from each other.

Cheers and good luck to all and may your liquid gold over flow your cups

Hi all I am back again from my very expensive trip to OZ. Was glad to get out of the place. Anyway cobbler, bananas may sound good, but nothing grows under a rubber canopy. Once your trees start to spread your bananas will die.

On another point, I am begining to think that planting rubber now may not be as good an idea as some people believe. Where I live the back of beyond, I am 4 tappers short this year. We have had to leave 16 rai untapped and another 30 as cup rubber,no one to make pancakes. Tried to get someone to collect the cup from 700 trees, not a hard job just walk around and throw the cup into a bag, maybe 2 or3 hours. Best offer 1000 Baht, no one wants to work and if it's like that now how much will they want in 7 years.

As a PS if anyone knows of a family of rubber tappers PM me. Jim

Jim,

The current system of Rubber tapping used in Thailand relies on very high labour availability & low labour cost per hour.

This was something I mentioned briefly on this thread several months ago.

Malaysia has already changed to different tapping systems due to reduced availability of labour & rising labour costs.

In Thailand the key meteric normally quoted is Kg / Rai / Year.

In the future this will change to g / tree / tap. (This factors in the labour cost).

The systems already exist to achieve good financial returns with less labour availability, and higher labour costs.

Changing to these systems in Thailand is pretty much guaranteed, it is simply a question of when.

I have found the Farming in Thailand forum to be the most informative & interesting on Thai Visa.

The members are very generous in sharing their valuable knowledge, including those who have posted on this thread.

This thread is dealing with a very emotive issue, which is illegal for Thais, let alone Farang.

If people want to make illegal loans, it is probably best not discussed on an open forum with strangers.

I think it would be a good thing for this forum if the mods closed & deleted this thread.

From the photos of members plantations, it seems that a lot of effort is required to keep the area between trees clear of weeds.

Has anyone tried planting nitrogen fixing leguminous cover crops like Mucuna Bracteata between their trees.

These plants take nitrogen from the air & transfer it into the soil reducing fertilizer requirements, they have additional benefits of preventing soil erosion, improving moisture retention in the soil & suppressing weed growth.

Way back at the beginning of this thread in Rubber 101,James recommends planting the trees every 3 metres and the rows 7 metres apart, resulting in 76 trees per rai. 2 days ago I went to the Agricultural office in Ban Dung, Udon Thani and picked up their leaflet which recommended either planting every 2.5 metres, 7 metres between rows, resulting in 91 trees per rai, or planting every 3 metres with the rows only 6 metres apart, resulting in 89 trees per rai.

These numbers are considerably more than what James recommends, does anyone have any thoughts or advice on this?

Does anyone know why 3m x 7m is the recommended tree spacing?

To me his spacing is logical if you are going to grow cash crops in the 7m between rows, until the rubber tree canopy closes.

For a mono culture rubber tree plantation. (With latex & timber as the outputs).

The research I have read states that latex yield per tree starts to deteriorate when the spacing is dropped below 4m, so 3m seems too close & 7m too wide.

I am thinking of planting 4.5m x 4.5m.

I hope this will give an increased latex & timber yield per Rai due to the increased number of trees.

Additionally the trees will grow taller with a larger straight bole increasing the timber value, due to the even spacing forcing the trees to grow straight up in search of sunlight.

Hi,

My wife & I are planning to relocate from the UK to Thailand in the future.

Our first choice is Chiang Rai, as that is where she is originally from & her mam still lives there.

My main concern with the move is not compromising the quality of my childrens education (7years & 5years old).

Therefore I am looking for some feedback on the newly opened CRIS.

As the school is new it will take time to be fully established, so there are no exam results yet.

However if anyone is sending their children there, or has knowledge of the school please share that information.

Specifically how do you think an education at this school would prepare the children, compared to an education in a good UK state school?

Article is on line here.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/feature/environment/274073/rubber-points-the-way

Mark

Awesome work Mark, thanks for posting. I am guessing those lumber prices are retail and does not take into account all the middle men and lumber harvesters taking their cut. Has anyone here sold lumber recently? What was the going rate in your area? Kind of curious.

k

Thanks Kolohe,

My information came from the following website.

http://worldtimber.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/malaysia-rubberwood-clones-forest-plantation-log-prices/

The price is for logs, but it is unclear at which point of the value chain this is & what deductions need to be made.

What is really suprising is the massive difference in useable timber between the RRIM600 and the RRIM3001.

On the same site they are quoting Merbau log values of US$319 - US$352 per m 3.

If these values are realistic it might also be worth planting some Merbau for the future timber value.

I am still living & working in the UK so all my information is from the Internet.

If you are on the ground in Thailand, please feel free to challenge or update any of the numbers I quote based upon the actual figures in Thailand.

Due to their higher labour costs Malaysia has been forced to rethink the economics of Rubber trees.

Unlike Thailand where the focus is on increasing the latex yield, they have given equal importance to increasing the timber yield.

They refer to their latest trees as latex / timber clones.

I tried to make a quick economic calculation to evaluate the benefit.

Rubber wood log price. US$ 47 - US$ 81 / m³

(These figures come from a Malaysian website, if anyone knows the Thai values please update).

RRIM 600. 0.42 m³ timber per tree at 21 Years = $19 - $34 per tree x 80 / Rai = $1,579 - $2,721 / Rai.

RRIM 3001 2 m³ timber per tree at 15 Years = $94 - $162 per tree x 80 / Rai = $7,520 - $12,960 / Rai.

I managed to translate some information on the latest Malaysian Rubber tree clones.

Hope it is useful, if anyone decides to use these trees it would be great if you could update with the progress.

Latex / Rai / year.

Wood tons / acre / 15 years.

PB 260.

347.

39.2.

PB 355

420.

117.

PB 350.

442.

56.

PB 359.

378.

68.

RRIM 937.

397.

26.

RRIM 938.

366.

...

RRIM 928.

499.

42.7.

RRIM 940.

324.

...

RRIM 929.

502.

69.

RRIM 2001.

456.

71.

RRIM 2002.

375.

63.

RRIM 2003.

451.

...

RRIM 2025.

432.

108.

RRIM 2027.

485.

75.

RRIM 3001.

512.

120.

RRIM 2025, RRIM3001 had a girth of 50-60cm, 1.5 meters from the ground and can therefore be tapped for latex at 4 years of age.

RRIM3001 can yield over 500 kg / Rai / year if well-maintained.

The rubber is perfect.

The disease immune system, tolerance to hot weather & drought is better than other varieties.

Source information.

http://sites.google..../yangthai18/aaa

Last Update: 22 Sep 2008

My wife plans to purchase and plant her Rubber trees next year.

One key question is which tree clone should she buy.

Currently she is planning RRIT 226 on sloping land, RRIT 251 on flat land.

Her land is about 1 hour North of Chiang Rai, 80% of the land is moderately sloping, 20% of her land is flat.

She will need about 16,000 trees so it's important she selects the right trees.

Rubber trees are a very recent development in Chiang Rai, the only trees currently being tapped in the area are RRIM 600.

My basic understanding of the 3 tree clones above is as follows:

RRIM 600. Tried and tested for many years, suitable on sloping & flat ground, 290Kg latex / year.

RRIT 226. Newer clone developed by Thai research institute, suitable on sloping & flat ground, 345Kg latex / year.

RRIT 251. Newer clone developed by Thai research institute, not suitable on sloping land 440Kg latex / year.

I am very interested in the new JVP80 clones but can't find any research / actual experience relating to this tree.

The JVP80 claims to yield 500 Kg of latex / year & have an extended 35 year tapping life.

I can't find any information regarding suitability in Northern Thailand, suitability on sloping ground, disease resistance, actual latex yield etc.

I think some of the members have already planted this tree, if they have any feedback it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Mark

Hi Mark, know nothing about 226 trees, first I have heard of them. 251s fall over in the wind. How windy is it where you are, I am nor talking constant gales. One good blow can flatten a plantation. Tothemark is they only one I know of who is giving the JVPs a try.

Think best you go to the local Agro dept. and ask them what's working in your area. They may not be the sharpest tools in the box. but at least they know what's falling over and what's not. Jim

Hi Jim/Mark,

We have about 10 rai of JVP80 growing now. It grows pretty quick thats for sure, its more expensive and buy only from a registered seller of the strain. My cousin in So Phisai has just bought some as well and they bought it directly from Malaysia and had it delivered direct. Better to do that rather than going through a government supplier such as we did, its quicker and knowing them it would have been cheaper.lol

But first, Mark, take a step back and consider what you are doing, my inlaws lived around Lampang and Mae Mao in Northern Thailand for many years before moving back to Isaan. My knowledge of that area is that there is very little rubber grown there and you have to ask the question why. Thais arent stupid, if they see an opportunity they copy it, so i would undertake some serious market research as to why they dont grow rubber in significant quantity in the North. My initial assumption would be that the temperate climate in the North especially Chiang Rai does not lend itself to profitable yields from the trees.

If you do go ahead with it and 200 rai is going to cost you circa 40,000bht per rai before you tap, (trees, fertilizer etc) you need to be very careful or you could lose a bucket load. Personally, I would spend time determining what strain is best suited to the climate of the north, not getting it right could break the project.

Thanks for the reply's.

I am confident that the climate in Chiang Rai is suitable for Rubber trees.

I think the reason that Chiang Rai historically didn't have many rubber trees, is because the locals always believed that the climate wasn't suitable.

As you say the Thais are prolific copiers.

Over the last 10 years that I have been visiting the MIL's village there has been an explosion in Rubber plantations.

10 years ago no one was planting Rubber trees, Today >50% of the land around the village is planted with Rubber trees.

The small number of people who have started tapping are said to be very happy with the results.

We are still in the UK and will be for at least the next 8 years, so there is no rush with this project.

We have decided not to plant the trees for at least another couple of years.

The wife spoke to the MIL Yesterday & told her to use the land to plant corn (or whatever other cash crop the MIL thinks is suitable).

They agreed to split the profits 50/50.

It will be a new experience to have funds transferred from Thailand to the UK.(No one will be amazed more than me if it ever happens).

There are a couple of reasons we have decided not to plant the trees yet.

1. We are not in Thailand to oversee the major long term investment required to plant & look after the trees.

2. We think that now is a good time to buy some more land at a reasonable price & any cash the wife has would be better allocated to this.

A lot of the locals are experiencing major cash flow problems, as it is 7 years of ongoing investment until they see any return.

Many are getting to 4 or 5 years & are now selling their spare land to look after their trees.

3. I want to wait another 3 years to see how the latest tree clones develop in the real world.

As well as the JVP80, there are new high yield latex / timber clones from Malaysia RRIM 2025, RRIM 2027, RRIM 3001 which were released in 2009.

They are claiming 4 years until tapping commences & >500Kg of rubber / Rai each year.

Thanks

Mark

My wife plans to purchase and plant her Rubber trees next year.

One key question is which tree clone should she buy.

Currently she is planning RRIT 226 on sloping land, RRIT 251 on flat land.

Her land is about 1 hour North of Chiang Rai, 80% of the land is moderately sloping, 20% of her land is flat.

She will need about 16,000 trees so it's important she selects the right trees.

Rubber trees are a very recent development in Chiang Rai, the only trees currently being tapped in the area are RRIM 600.

My basic understanding of the 3 tree clones above is as follows:

RRIM 600. Tried and tested for many years, suitable on sloping & flat ground, 290Kg latex / year.

RRIT 226. Newer clone developed by Thai research institute, suitable on sloping & flat ground, 345Kg latex / year.

RRIT 251. Newer clone developed by Thai research institute, not suitable on sloping land 440Kg latex / year.

I am very interested in the new JVP80 clones but can't find any research / actual experience relating to this tree.

The JVP80 claims to yield 500 Kg of latex / year & have an extended 35 year tapping life.

I can't find any information regarding suitability in Northern Thailand, suitability on sloping ground, disease resistance, actual latex yield etc.

I think some of the members have already planted this tree, if they have any feedback it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Mark

My wife's exact phrase regarding employing Thai people was: "Why would I ask a cat to deliver a fish"

I love it! That is funny.

I don't have any experience with what you're trying to do, all I can offer is some thoughts based on what I've experienced.

Thais seem to like to do things the way they've always done them. When things are done out of the traditional way, they can get suspicious... especially regarding money. I would think that if they were told they are getting some lower percentage than the typical arrangements then they would start to think that you're some how ripping them off. You could try to explain it to them with the spreadsheets and such but in my experience its hard to explain concepts like that and they would just focus on the % they are getting. I could be totally wrong and you may be able to pull it off, if you can more power too you. I just have not seen much success in trying to get someone to think differently there.

I think Jim also has some experience with this. In one of these threads he talked about trying to get the locals to sell him liquid latex instead of making cup rubber. Doing so would also net the farmers more money. It required the local farmers to embrace a different approach to selling rubber. Needless to say, they are still selling cup.

-k

Kolohe you are right, the tappers will think I am trying to rip them off as they will only remember the %.

From my experience Thai people never tell each other the real numbers when they talk about what they bought / earn etc.

The tappers will have a bigger face & be happier if they can say to their friends that they make 50%, even if their income after costs is less than it may have been.

If Mosha's arrangement of a 50/50 split, with the tappers responsible for weeding & fertilizing is the standard that is what I will advise the wife to do.

What is the normal size of plantation each family of tappers can look after?

I was thinking 10 Rai, but I am not sure.

Just to add my wife's opinion on tapping. 50-50 split the tappers contribute to feeding the trees, 40-60 maybe contributing but at a lesser rate. We use a Burmese tapper, she says Thai's are too unreliable and are lazy sods. That's from a Thai lol.

My wife agrees with your wife about not employing Thai's, she is going to employ Akah people from her village.

They are trained from birth in the virtues of hard work & honesty by the American Christian missionaries.

My wife's exact phrase regarding employing Thai people was: "Why would I ask a cat to deliver a fish"