Mark1971

Personally I find it very difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff on a lot of these trading forums.

Lots of people trying to make money selling you stuff to help you trade better.

These financial TV shows Bloomberg etc. are trying to fill up air time, and are bombarding you with fast paced, up to the minute rubbish.

Honestly if these people really had the secrets, they would be using them to make money, not giving their secrets away to strangers on a forum, or on TV.

I am an investor not a trader.

Every investment I make I am prepared to keep for my lifetime, each investment must provide an income or dividend.

I am comfortable growing my wealth slowly & steadily.

One Financial blog I respect is Naddem Walayat, UK biased but with a very interesting viewpoint & has a proven track record of predicting major financial events before they happen.

Not just reporting them after they have occured.

CMK posted.

" I am still laughing about the import tax and investment incentives being responsible for the production of 2 million cars. “

According to The Nation newspaper, Thailand will produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2013, 1.5 Million of those vehicles will be for the Thai Domestic market.

According to The Daily Mail newspaper, Britain is forecast to produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2016. 0.4 Million of those vehicles are for the Domestic UK market.

Do you not think the fact that 80% of UK built vehicles are exported, while only 28% of Thai built vehicles are exported, may be related to Thai import taxes?

I am surprised you would jump into this Thai race thing. Thought you were above it. Are you saying because a person is Thai they can't design a car? Yes I am having a laugh. The identity of the person designing the Jag is back up in the thread look it up if you want to. I am still laughing about the import tax and investment incentives being responsible for the production of 2 million cars.

No I have not stated that race has anything to do with ability.

I have stated that Thailand lacks the research, engineering and design infrastructure to produce Engineers and Designers - Now let me guess, before I go looking. A Thai designer on the Jaguar Design team (not the designer of the Jaguar F-Type ) where did he learn his trade?

I don't have a clue. I didn't post it. I think he was the head designer but I don't know anything about the guy. If you want to debate schools would you say Abhisit Vejjajiva did not produce a Thai government because he went to school in England? The whole engineering world is so international that any attempt to classify it by country is foolish.

CMK.

Maybe you should think why Abhist Vejjajiva's parents decided that having him educated in the UK would be a good thing.

How many of Britains elite are thinking of sending their children to Thailand, for a Thai education?

I am finding it difficult to debate two of you at the same time about the same subject. Could you come up with a spokesperson.

CMK this is a forum not a debate.

At its best this forum is about sharing information in a positive way.

Your thread title & the contents of your posts come across with a negative tone in my opinion.

As you don't know the backgound of the people posting here, please try to listen more & argue less.

Some of the people posting here may be experts in this area.

There are a number of issues the OP misses, fails to address or simply can't get his head around.

The first is the huge import tariffs applied to Automotive imports in Thailand - So where the UK is an open market and the UK's Automotive industry is not subsidised and not protected by the government the same cannot be said of the Thai Automotive industry.

Secondly there is a world wide overproduction of mass produced budget vehicles - Sales of UK budget vehicles have risen this year, but nobody expects that to continue - Expectation is that lower demand in Europe and greater international competition will reduce sales of Mass Produced vehicles in the UK. Of course these same impacts will hit Thailand's automotive industry, but you'll not find it being discussed in the local press or the BoI circulars.

On the flip side, the UK's luxury Automotive industry is booming, with production at Jaguar, RangeRover/LandRover flat out and long long waiting lists for other top end motors. All of which have a high content of UK Engineering and design. The UK's dominance of the racing Automotive industry needs no explanation.

Thailand has no luxury car maker, little if any Thai engineering or design content in any vehicle produced in Thailand and the only contribution to the Automotive Racing industry that Thailand makes is go faster stickers plastered on Toyotas driven by people who can't see over the steering wheel.

And then there is the blindingly obvious fact that while Thailand has been very successful at importing mass manufacture of Automotive vehicles (well done Thailand) there is next to no Thai engineering or design content in these vehicles AND as a matter of observation there is next to no other Thai engineering industry.

Compare this to the UK, where as mentioned there is a broad spectrum Automotive industry (with significant UK engineering and design content) PLUS a host of other industries that are simply not present in Thailand - Aerospace, Defence Technology, Communications Technology, Power Engineering, Chemical Engineering, Pharmaceutical Engineering, Oil and Gas Engineering.

Plus a substantial research and development infrastructure both privately funded research centres and university department led research.

But yes, Thailand has done very well importing other people's manufacturing - Thailand has failed to build an engineering expertise on the back of this and those who are in charge of developing these industries further in Thailand are probably still grimacing from the effect of the floods last year.

Having read the BoI report on the car industry, perhaps it might be worth writing to them to ask how many companies close shop and went elsewhere after the floods of last year.

Bet your bottom dollar, Toyota, Honda et al, took note of the floods last year and the Thai government's lack of planning (smoke and mirrors) bet your bottom dollar they are working on Plan B....... Though they might not have told the BoI about it just yet.

GH said, "Thailand has no luxury car maker,"

Thonburi Automotive Assembly Plant Co., Ltd. Began To Assemble Chassis For Commercial Vehicles At Plant No. 1. Subsequently, It Expanded Its Operation To Cover The Assembly Of Mercedes-benz Passenger Cars In C-class, E-class And S-class Models At Plant No. 2 In Samut Prakan Province. Considered By Leading Car Manufacturers As One Of The Most Modern Factories In Southeast Asia, The Plant Has A Capacity Of 12,000 Cars Per Year. Thonburi Group Was Appointed By Daimlerchrysler (thailand) Ltd. To Be The Authorized Assembler Of Mercedes-benz�s C-class, E-class, S-class And A-class Models, In Accordance With Daimlerchrysler Ag�s Stringent Quality Standards.

You are comparing car assemblers with car manufacturers/makers,not quite the same,as parts being shipped in from around the world and put together,having been Engineered/made by other countries.

OP has been out in the sun too long.

This is just a way for Mercedes to avoid import tariffs.

Engineer & manufacture the vehicles in Germany, dis-assemble into the largest components allowed, put into boxes and ship to Thailand.

All they are doing in Thailand is opening the boxes & bolting the bits back together.

I knowwwwwwww, my point was the UK provided the best piston engine for the job at the time.

Though the fuel injected inverted V12 of the opposition was cool.

Since you brought it up what is your point relative to Thai auto production?

Weeeeeeeell, hmmmmmmmmmm, nothing, BUT my point is Thailand has not developed anything. They are assembling other folks stuff, your UK WAR is crap. YOUR Thai engineering stuff is crap. Who designs the roads, oooop's think the Germans are owed some cash for that, who built the airport, who designs and builds anything. ??????????

Sorry but you are going on about a country that is doing stuff for OTHERS because of cheap labour, plain and simple, same as India and China. China is now moving on with folk having a better lif,e BUT l think manufacturing will move back to home lands in the future as these countries get nearer to the wests standard of life and costs are put on the west.

As I remember it that is what the US said about Japan in the 1950's. The first Japanese cars were really crap. I think they also said that about Japanese steel. Actually they said it about anything made in Japan. At first Made In Japan, meant cheap and crappy. My first Japanese Honda was really crap too I bought it in 1960. My Enfield was a lot better.

The first Japanese cars weren't the best, nor were the first Korean cars.

Both of these countries now excel at the design / engineering / manufacturing of automotive & other products.

It is now 2012 & I am unaware of any globally successful product which has been designed / engineered & manufactured by Thais.

OP

What is the point of this thread?

The reasons Automotive Manufacturing is increasing in Thailand are quite simple.

1. South East Asia is growing rapidly.

2. Japanese Yen is too strong, pushing low cost manufacturing overseas, while maintaining core Engineering skills in Japan.

3. Thailand has prohibitively high import taxes on imported vehicles.

4. Japanese like coming on business trips to Thailand, as the enviroment, weather & female companionship are better than competitors ie. China, India, Indonesia.

5. Thailand has a young, cheap, low skill workforce readily available.

None of these things are related to the UK, or UK Automotive Manufacturing.

Additionally none of them are anything to be particularly proud of.

UK Manufacturing is 10x as skilled & 3x as efficient as Thai manufacturing, it has to be due to the high wages & cost of living.

When Thailand has a workforce which has 1/2 the skill base of the UK you may have a point.

Just to get it straight. Varee's International Programme is the Cambridge IGCSE which is based on the UK National Curriculum and designed especially for students studying abroad, although some schools in the UK use it too. The Cambridge course is the most popular and widely used international syllabus available and their advanced level exams (taken at 18) are accepted by virtually all providers of higher education in the English speaking world.

Establishments offering a recognised International education usually apply for accreditation by one or more bodies who check various standards, but which exist primarily to give confidence to prospective parents and guidance to schools by offering a wider perspective. It's a fairly drawn out process and is a couple of years before accreditation is confirmed since, as you would expect, they actually have to monitor a reasonable period of operation. The VCS International Programme is undergoing the accreditation process and, I'm told, expects to have it confirmed during the current school year. The level of fees at International Schools varies quite widely and given the facilities I don't think you'll find they are out of line.

To answer the OP's question: if learning in English is the objective then I agree with the poster above to who suggested you look at the Varee English Programme. It's the Thai National Curriculum but taught in English by native speakers. My stepson has been on this course since he was in Prathom 2 (at eight) and three years later is a confident speaker, comfortable talking to adults in most circumstances. I'd like to see the school give them more demanding homework but overall I remain pleased and, best of all, he loves going to school every day. EP fees stand at about 90,000 baht a year including meals and a lot of stuff that often seems to turn up as extras.

Whether I put him onto the International Programme will depend on my financial circumstances but I like the option of being able to change course without changing school,.which from my recollection is a stressful and less than happy experience.

There is some good advice here.

I visited some International schools in Chiang Mai about 18 months ago, as we are thing of relocating from the UK in the future.

PTIS (Prem) was very good, but also very expensive, I also like the fact they study Internaional Baccalaureate.

There may be some scholarships available, however even with the scholarship the annual cost is way over the OP's budget.

The wife was also worried that most of the kids were from expat families, school fees paid by the company & there was a resulting high turnover of students.

I also thought their I Bac results weren't brilliant, though this may be down to their student intake as much as their teaching.

Varee.

We were interested in the International programme because they study IGCSE.

The English Programme shares the same campus & facilities, only teaching is in separate buildings.

I was impressed with the facilities and teaching I witnessed, additionally the students are local so your children will make life long friends.

The International Programme is new so they couldn't demonstrate their exam results yet.

With the OP's budget this is where I would send my children.

With a budget of 100,000 Baht / Year, Varee English Programme is the best option I am aware of.

The starting budget for a full International School is double that figure.

Varee International School is about 195,000 Baht / Year, going up to 450,000 Baht at somewhere like PTIS.

The different schools offer various scholorships, dependant upon how much academic or sporting excellence the child brings to their school.

Some of the International schools are very heavy on Christianity, this is something else worth considering.

Best look at the different schools websites to see what scholarships are on offer, think about which areas your son excels & speak to the schools directly.

Should have said in my earlier post - I was pretty much brought up behind the bar of Working Men's Clubs in north east England. Smile and be friendly to the customers was a given. No matter what, put on the slap, do your hair and paint on your smile and talk nicely to the paying customers. It's all part of the job and why you rarely see ugly barmaids. I know it's not the same as the situation here in Thailand, but the principle is the same. People go to the bar, pub or club to escape, not to have some sourfaced hag ignore you. If they wanted that they'd buy beer from the shop and drink at home. Totally against all feminist and probably moral beliefs, but it's true, and I can't see anyone being able to argue me down on this one.

Excellent post Konini. A view from the other side of the fence, and a sensible response... what on earth are you doing on Thai Visa...?? Haha!

Seriously though, I do think a few posters here need to be more observant and read and understand what was said - I am sure the chap posting is doing so because he would like some genuine advice, but a large number of posts are just people making stupid comments that are not helpful.

There is some good advice mixed with the rubbish - just have to sort the chaf from the hay!

The OP has shown terrible judgement posting this here looking for advice, which makes me question if he is really viewing this situation objectively.

I think his girlfriend knows exactly what she is doing, women don't flirt by accident.

She is working in a bar, flirting with foreign men who drink there, hoping a good catch walks in so she can dump him.

I have two pieces of advice for the OP.

1. Take your girlfriend out of the bar into a regular job & hire a barmaid.

2. Stay away from Thai Visa for a few days, until this train wreck of a thread dies a death.

Based upon his terrible judgement feeding this train wreck of a thread I don't think he will take either.

Hi,

Just checked on Trip Advisor, Siam Triangle reviews seem to be a bit patchy.

I stayed there soon after it first opened about 18 months ago & thought it was very good.

Serene at Chiang Rai hotel gets the best reviews now.

Never stayed there personally, but it will probably be the one we will stay in next time we go.

Hi,

Last time we were in Chiang Saen we stayed in the Siam Triangle Hotel for 3 or 4 nights.

Personally I thought it was of a very good value for money & a surprisingly high standard of accomodation for Chiang Saen.

Good points.

Modern, clean, pool, breakfast was ok, right on the river.

Bad points.

Bit of a long walk along the river to Chiang Saen.

(We had a car so it didn't bother us).

Personally I would have stayed longer but the wife insisted we stayed at the MIL's for the rest of the visit.

There are many areas of Chiang Rai that offer different living experiences. Some areas are much more scenic with beautiful moutains, rivers, streams, rice paddies, etc surrounding you. Other areas are nearer to the big highway and are really just pretty flat and not very scenic. There are Thai housing estates with gates where the houses are placed very very close to each other. There are other areas that offer more space between the housing units.

Since there is little or no zoning you do need to be be careful about who your neighbors might be, how close to your house they will be and what they may be up to. You would not want to build a nice house and then have someone open a pig farm or worse next door. You also need to be aware of noise from the local village as most have loudspeakers that they do a daily "news update, singing contest" or you name it. While few and far between you might also like to make sure there are no mosques nearby or you will be subjected to the muslim prayers at all hours of everyday.

For me I prefer a more rural scenic setting with a big enough piece of land to give me some amount of privacy from the neighbors. I like to be able to go for walks without having a bunch of vicious dogs raising hell. I like to be able to sit on my deck and have one of the best views of nature that i have ever experienced. I like to be within 15 mins drive of town but still have all the advantages of NOT being too close to town or on a road with too much traffic. I like to have a big wall around my house for more privacy etc. I like feeling that within reason I am protected from some one opening some obnoxious business too close to my house.

Having said all of that the BEST advice i suspect you will get is to come here and RENT a place for a while and do a good long slow look around at the various areas and at different pieces of property. Narrow it down and be sure to visit at different hours of the day. Do a few walks around the area to find out about dogs and the like. Pay attention to the neighborhood and THEN decide what works best for you.

Thanks for the reply, this is very good advice,

I agree with everything you are saying, and have touched on most of your points in replies to other posts.

The only piece of advice I am unsure of is your BEST advice to come and RENT before buying.

This is of course would normally be sound advise.

However I have a pretty clear image of what I want.

The first time I visited Chiang Rai (to meet the wife's family) was over 10 years ago, although I have visited relatively infrequently since, I have an understanding of the place.

The value of good, well located land will only go up in the long term. (In my opinion).

So if I can find what we want, and can buy it at a good price (I am in no rush, so I will make sure I am getting a good deal), I might be tempted to buy.

It costs a lot of money to get me the wife & 2 kids from the UK to Chiang Rai on holiday, so we can't visit frequently & I would like to make the best use of my time there.

(I tried to explain to the wife that if I went on my own, I could go 4 times as often. Strangely she didn't seem to think that was a good idea).

If i were you, i would choose Santiburi, as it would spare you from dogs, chickens and Pouyi Ban tannoys.

Living so close to the inlaws can prove testing to say the least, depends on how much privacy you require.

Chiang Rai is a wonderful place to live and where ever you decide to make your home, i am sure you will be very happy here.

This sums up a lot of my thinking.

Buying land in a new estate or on the golf course is expensive, however it guarantees that your enviroment isn't spoiled by the neighbours setting up a motorbike repair shop or a pig farm next door.

Also while I love the in laws, a degree of separation would be good.

As I mentioned in an earlier post we looked at some places in Chiang Mai last time we visited Thailand.

The estates we viewed seemed to fall into three categories.

1. Attractive, modern, well maintained estates, very small expensive plots <300m2 with large houses completely filling the plot.

2. Older, poorly maintained estates with a very eclectic mix of properties on reasonable sized >800m2 plots, houses ranging from beautiful & well maintained to unfinished and derelict.

3. There was one estate we visited which we liked which had reasonable sized plots >800m2, individually designed homes with a common architectural theme & reasonable standards of maintenance.

We also looked at plots on Summit Green Valley Golf Course, but left with a similar feeling to estate category 2, as the place was huge so could not be properly maintained, there was a lot of half finished and deserted / empty derelict plots.

I like it where I am, about 20kms south of the city on the old Chiang Mai road.

Nice mountain area, no flooding and a good road to town.

It's nice out to the west of the city as well as you follow the MaeKok towards the Burmese border.

It's a fair trip over to the Mekong where your land is though so may be you should concentrate your search in that area.

Yes it is a long old hike from the MIL's to Chiang Rai.

To be honest it is too far away from the city for me, which is why I am trying to make a short list of other options to show the wife next time we go to Chiang Rai.

Not sure if it is the area you are describing, I once drove from Mae Sai over to Chiang Saen & thought there was some stunning scenery in that area.

I wouldn't worry to much about the distance to the land, the BIL will be in charge of day to day management & we can stop at his or the MIL's when we go there. (To be honest the wife will probably talk me into building a small house in the village as well).

Not sure what kind of views you are looking for but here is an example of one kind of view. We are more like 50 minutes from town, than 15, but the town is growing quickly. Took this shot today.

VF,

I really enjoy your photography, much better than any photos I have ever taken.

Personally I am thinking 10 to 20 minutes drive from town is about right for me, however if I had views like yours I might never want to leave the house.

You say you are settling here when the children are bigger. What do you mean by that. If they still need school that is one of the more important issues. Older children also have other needs and these need to be taken into acount if they are to live there too. Without this any advise is possibly not reliable. Let us know what the real situation is and people can help more. Nothing replaces the need to stay and look first from here.

Thanks for the reply.

The childrens education is a major consideration with regard moving to Thailand.

I was deliberately vague about this point in my original question, as I didn't want to get bogged down on this particular issue.

Our thinking on the subject is that the children will have a Western education, in the UK or finances permitting at a top International School in Thailand, going to University either in the UK or Australia.

Chiang Rai probably doesn't offer the childrens education we are looking for, although we are going to take a look at CRIS when we next visit Chiang Rai.

We visited Thailand about 18 months ago & took a tour of PTIS in Chiang Mai, which offered the standard of education & personal experience we want for the children.

I was trying to convince the wife to relocate to Chiang Mai due to the options for the childrens education, but we were both dissapointed with Chiang Mai as a city & agreed we are happier in the UK.

Chiang Rai has always been the retirement dream for me & the wife.

We want at least 1 Rai, so we can build a house with guest accomodation so family & friends can feel as though they have their own space when they come to stay.

Hi,

I am looking for advice from you guys who have experience of living in Chiang Rai.

We are living in the UK, and will be here for a few more years.

The wife is from Chiang Rai & we are planning to retire there once the kids are bigger.

We both agree on this, but whenever we get into the detail, exactly when, where etc, it is obvious we have different ideas.

This is probably my fault as I am an Engineer & enjoy planning things in great detail, obviously as the wife is Thai detailed planning isn't her strongest point.

The Mother in Law lives between Chiang Saen & Chiang Khong.

The MIL has a lovely 4 Rai garden at the back of her place backing onto a stream, which she uses to grow corn / vegetables etc.

We were there about 18 months ago for my Brother in Laws wedding, while there the wife bought 200 Rai near the village.

The plan is for the BIL / SIL to plant & look after rubber trees, manage some Burmese when we start tapping & live in a new house built in the MIL's back garden & look after her in her old age.

Obviously everything will be initially funded by me & the wife, however there should be some money coming our way once things are up and running.

We will be going to Chiang Rai again next May to oversee the tree planting & visit the family.

When we are there I would like to look for a plot of land for our retirement.

The wife would be happy to build a house in the MIL's back garden, but my thinking is that I would be too isolated.

My preference is less than 15 minutes drive from Chiang Rai, safe are, nice scenery, minimum plot size 1 Rai.

Looking on the internet land on Santiburi golf club looks very nice, despite being at the top end of the budget.

I may even consider an estate if there are any with decent plot sizes & good management.

If you were in my position where would you suggest we should look for a retirement plot.

Thanks

OP,

100,000 Baht to 1,000,000 Baht a Rai for agricultural land in Chiang Rai seems very expensive.

1 Rai of roadside development land for a luxury villa, directly opposite Santiburi Golf Course only costs 1,000,000 Baht.

Last year my wife bought 200 Rai of agricultural land in Chiang Rai province, near Chiang Saen.

The land is next to her village & is accessible by pick up truck via a dirt road.

The land is suitable for Rubber trees as it is on a gradual slope, many other people in this area have already moved over to Rubber trees.

The price was 9,000 Baht / Rai.

The land can only be used for agriculture, so does not have Chanote.

However at 1.8M Baht for 200 Rai I told her to crack on.

200 Rai at 100,000 to 1M Baht per Rai, would be 20M Baht to 200M Baht, which are huge sums of capital.

The pressure on Natural Rubber prices is entirely due to increased supply.

While demand is constantly increasing, supply is increasing at a faster rate.

I only see this situation accelerating in the future & anticipate a prolonged period of pressure on Natural Rubber prices.

Global Natural Rubber production is increasing by 570,000 Metric Tonnes every year.

Global Natural Rubber demand is increasing by 140,000 Metric Tonnes every year.

Technological advances with modern high yielding clones & the rapid geographic expansion of Rubber tree plantations guarantee the supply of Natural Rubber will continue to increase.

When similar technological advances have increased the supply of other commodities it has always put downward pressure on the price of that commodity.

eg.

Shale gas hydraulic fracturing (USA).

Milk yield production in dairy cows, by genetic selection & silage feed (UK).

The recommended nitrogen fixing cover crop in mature Rubber plantations is Mucuna Bracteata, it is widely used in Malaysia.

It is advisable that you use a Rizobacteria innoculant, in case the soil in your area doesn't have the correct bacteria, the bacteria is required to allow the plant to transfer the nitrogen from the air into the soil.

Other Farming forum members will know more about fertiliser applications on than me, as they are actually doing this.

My understanding is that the fertiliser requirement increases dramatically when you start cutting the trees.

Trmthailand supply a fertiliser specifically formulated for Rubber trees.

6 Year old trees before tapping = 0.3Kg / Tree, Twice a year.

Mature trees being tapped = 1Kg / Tree, Twice a year.

The purpose of using the nitrogen fixing cover crop is to reduce the quantity & cost of fertiliser applied.

Newbie to this forum and finding it very informative reading it while currently working in UK and sending money to pay for the upkeep of the trees (and girlfriend!).

Have 45 Rai of rubber trees near Ban Dung (Issan) about 2 - 3 years from fruition.

I understand lots of factors involved and complicated, but what is the average yield per Rai (KG/Rai)?

The trees are the latest hybrids (not sure what type exactly) and we've been doing everything by the book so an approximate figure would be helpful.

Thanks

Mike

A modern high latex clone, eg. (RRIT 251, RRIM 3001, JVP 80) should give 500 Kg latex / Rai average yield.

Traditional clones eg. (RRIM 600) should give 300 Kg / Rai average yield.

The average 7m x 3m planting = 75 Trees / Rai.

Modern high latex clone = 6.8 Kg / Tree

Traditional clone = 4 Kg / Tree

Some members are reporting 14 Kg / tree which is much higher than the official averages.

Just a heads guys to friends of pigeonjake ... I received word this morning that he is currently flat out and won't be able to post for a few days.

Should be back in action some time this coming week-end ...

I sometimes pop into the Teaching forum as I am toying with retiring to Thailand early & putting the kids in an International school to finish their education.

I can't believe the attitudes & comments over there, couldn't stop myself from making a couple of posts.

I have a feeling I will be receiving a suspension of my own any moment now.

The thing is on the rare occasion things get a little silly on the farming forum, I always want things to sort themselves out and never feel the lack of respect I feel towards members on other forums.

It may just be me as I was always better at working & had more respect for the men who passed on their skills to me than I had for my teachers at school.

These three steps to "success" are completely ridiculous in Teaching or in any other salaried job.

4. never complain about anything

5. assume that your weekends and free time are not your own (come to all after hour activities)

6. have no other commitment that is more important than the school

Khonwan,

Although I will not be actively engaged in farming in Thailand until I retire in 10 years, I thoroughly enjoy reading the posts on this forum.

In particular I am grateful for the knowledge of members who have hands on farming experience in Thailand,

and their generosity to share their practical experience.

At it's best this Forum is a unique source of irreplaceable information, generously provided by the experienced members of this forum.

Thanks