virtualtraveller

We're getting into an unending philosophical debate here about democracy; at what point do local and national interests draw the line of governance. Certainly Thailand might well solve some of their differences through more of a federal system like the US where each province is locally governed by the federal government overrides it on national affairs like education, national budget dispersal, security apparatus etc. This would give the people of Isarn a better feeling of control over their affairs, and tone done some of the hate and mistrust between the two polarised sectors of society (urban rich/rural poor).

It would also eliminate, to a degree, the awful practice of position buying and loyalty above competence that is going on from both sides and very necessary to maintain political clout. However, since local strong men dominate politics and money factors in elections, a much more robust system of checks and balances, accountability and censure needs to be in place to keep the dodgy in check. For example, democracy seems to work much better in Bangkok, where there are fewer instances of vote buying, but I'm not sure that parts of Isarn can be trusted to elect a leader fairly. What's the point of democractic autonomy when the resulting winner isn't necessarily the people's independently chosen choice.

I doubt the present governments idea to appoint all levels of authority will ever get of the ground, just imagine what would happen if such power fell into the opposition's hands.

Typical Thailand to pass the hot potato on, string it out like all court cases, go to appeal, inch through the course towards an expiry date with a convenient excuse to let the case go. The point here is that Bout was caught red handed trying to sell weapons illegally to an organisation engaged in terrorist activity, in a Bangkok hotel, he's also very well known for suspected arms dealing with shady people over the years, whether or not that is true will come out in the courts.

But if Thailand lets this one go, all things considered, it will be a great example of how political pressure can override justice, to my mind Bout is as guilty as hel_l but the Russians desperately don't want him to fall into American hands. What are they trying to hide. It's unfair to accuse the Americans of leaning on Thailand, afterall you have a high profile suspected criminal here that they want to put on trial, I think the American legal system is a lot more reliable towards the accused than the Thai or Russian one.

Thailand runs the risk of showing the world that's it's the perfect place for criminals the world over to do business and hide out, should they let Bout evade justice. Remember, Bout is not guilty yet, but he does have to face trial, why is he so afraid of that?

30,000 baht? try 8,000 baht - that is the starting salary of a junior teacher, even those in profitable private schools get no more than 10,000 - some assigned to some Mattayom classes.

When I was teaching 8 years ago the highest salary in the private school was 15,000 baht, yet the mercs would roll up in the morning to drop off their kids, says it all really.

I'm doubtful whether this country can ever successfully reform its education system to produce better qualified manpower, being dumb is all part of the fabric of this society, being clever is just a threat to the system. Besides if the new generation are never allowed to be cleverer than the older generation then what hope is there of improvement.

Part of the problem too is that the educators aren't particularly smart and the decision makers among the educators, are even less smart about it all.

If Jatuporn was to be sued for every defamation or false accusation he makes, the man would have to permanently pitch his tent in the courts, he's got a cheek!

Soutpeel, stop winging and go back to Sefrica man!

The harder Russia tries to protect Bout, the more guilty he seems to me. What are they trying to hide, it isn't an apparent spy, yet they come out strongly in one individual's defence, it would be interesting to see if they put as much effort into the incarceration of an ordinary Russian mafi guy in Pattaya, say.

it will interesting to re-read this story in a year's time when Thaksin might be sitting down with his cheque book and saying to Newin 'So how much do you want for joining our coalition'?

I'm not involved but I have vested interests in the Thailand's approach to welcoming guests, I find this whole episode disgusting. Perhaps there are several mitigating factors and reasons behind the fallout, part mis-management, part-misunderstanding, part slipping attendance (violating visa rules), who knows but the reaction to all this of the two main parties says alot about Thailand;

1. On the one hand you have Matt Kay, who started this all up and turned it into a successful business that was benefitting lots of people, training them and providing CMU LI with a highly profitable usage of a failing department. He has run around trying to find solutions, and communicated properly with those involved and, crucially, committed to digging into his own pocket to refund and pay for expenses incurred from the sudden termination of the agreement.

2. On the other hand you have the president of CMU abruptly terminating the program, citing an implausible reason, giving unreasonable notice and not co-operating in helping find the students an alternative (which could quite easily be done if he wasn't spiteful), furthermore he has violated several hundred contracts by refusing to refund money to the students despite his university issuing the receipts for the money.

Not difficult to judge who the villian is here. I suggest the students collectively go to a lawyer with a class action lawsuit against CMU for refund and expenses incurred for visa runs and other costs incurred while waiting to resume their studies. They should show up en-masse at his office and demand an explanation. Of course being farang he can get them all 'unguested' from Thailand (to quote his own word), which would conveniently remove them all from the country and he can keep his money (amounting to about 10 million baht) and squash the lawsuit (since it's against a govt institution) and carry on with an empty language institute, as if nothing ever happened.

What's more the manner in which the Immigration department went along with everything then suddenly 'queried' their methods, is suspicious and I don't trust this man's explanations one bit. As a professional at an executive level of a prestigious university you would have expected him to give sufficient notice and have the forethought to realise that sudden termination will leave lots of people suddenly unable to renew visas. CMU are also trying to pass the buck by referring everyone to the administration of the program (Matt Kay et al) when in fact it is not a proper company and the whole program was organised under CMU LI which is a part of the university, so they are obliged to deal with disgruntled students and liable for refunds. It's fairly typical in a country that has such poor sense of accountability for an individual of this seniority in public education to conduct himself like this and get away with. It says a great deal about how this country runs, why it can't even get 3G going, and continually embarrasses itself with dysfunctional politics, law and order and half-baked business deals.

Mai pen rai, there will always be a plane full of gullible flush foreigners touching down at Suvarnabhumi every 5 minutes, waiting to be fleeced by King Power, the Police or whoever, who cares about the reputation of the country.

I saw this coming months ago, a ploy to maintain a monopoly, that's how much of Asia still works and that's the mentality at CAT and TOT. We have 3G in Bangkok and cities, provided by TOT, you have to sign up for a year contract and if the service sucks, that's too bad, no refund. That's how you make money in Thailand. Ironically, if Thaksin was still in power we would have had 3G long ago, albeit skewed towards a certain company.

To be sure there is a lot of money at stake and the complex arrangement of all parties involved simply can't agree on how to divvy up the corruption pie. The amount the govt (and by extension TOT and CAT) will derive from the auction more than covers the losses that these two state behemoths will lose. The problem is, a different set of people now have control over who gets to skim off that, and TOT and CAT will now no longer have access to wads of cash to cover up their inefficiencies and mismanagement.

Also, you can't outrule the possibility that powerful individuals in CAT were encouraged to push for this freeze so that the present govt cannot approve 3G (and gain the lucrative kickbacks associated) during their watch, so that the opportunity passes on to the next govt, who might be run by Peua Thai.

TIT, never let the national interests get in the way of private greed. Who needs 3G anyway, except to beam live footage of protesters being shot.

I think the Saudis have been extremely patient, Thailand is well aware of how much it's lost in foreign revenue from the loss of 200,000 workers in Saudi, but they will never admit that it all adds up to more than the value of the jewels sitting in one policeman's pocket.

The real disgrace here is the police, their inability to solve the crime, their foot dragging in investigating, their involvement in the cover up and deaths, and crucially the inability or unwillingness of successive govts (even the strong TRT one) to discipline a law enforcement agency that has made Thailand the laughing stock of the interpol.

CLARIFICATION:

I am personally acquainted with the director (Matt) of the language institute, and although I suspect there's lots of murky details I'm unaware of, I can confirm some things as first hand information. Lots of speculation in the comments above which are simply not true.

1. The language institute at CMU is an independently run organisation but the courses are endorsed by CMU, the premises belong to CMU, CMU staff and former directors are on the board for language institute, and CMU takes a substantial cut of the profits. I'm not sure what the company ownership is but it is managed by a farang.

2.Recently the rector of CMU gave the director short notice that they no longer wish to continue hosting the program, this began with a series of meetings regarding the future of the program some months ago but recently the director abruptly gave 1 month for them to move out. I cannot say if there was a reason why but the director assures me everything was above board at their end. Crucially, CMU derives significant profit from offering these courses to farangs, and it is filling a building that was built 3 years ago but was never successfully used.

3. Furthermore, I'm told that all the CMU's share of the profit derived from advanced payments for year long course and deposits has been remitted to the university already, and that they are unwilling to refund portions of this to the language institute. The director told me a week ago that he would honour all deposits and advance fees, since the language 'company' had good capital reserves, even if CMU refuse to refund their equity. However it's unclear what happens if you want a partial or full refund should you be unhappy with the course being offered by the new university. He's a person of good character and I'd trust his word, he's got a family here and settled in Chiang Mai. Unfortunately it's all unfolding rather quickly and he's probably inundated with calls and as yet has no clear answers from the authorities involved, so he's not taking calls.

4. Meanwhile the director has been working hard (I can't even raise him on the phone) to move the language program to another university in Chiang Mai, this he has done as there is a private university quite willing to take on this lucrative business as a partner and to give the courses a university endorsement. They are not as prestigious as CMU but perhaps more reliable since they are motivated by profit while CMU is a state institution that can make counter-productive decisions like the one above.

5. Courses are set to move in early October, but from what I've read here and heard from someone on the course, CMU are now obfuscating the process and causing trouble.

6. The business of courses here has become a lucrative one in recent years because it enables farangs to get a visa. Up until now it has been approved by immigration, though I'm lead to believe they have been 'taken care of'. None-the-less it appears that these have become a victim of their own success, and someone became spooked by so many farang getting study visas. (anecdotally I heard that the rector's daughter was shocked to walk into the language institute one day and discover she was vastly outnumbered by farang, so she complained). I can only assume that someone's toes were stepped on and they've raised the issue with a big noodle who has instructed immigration to stop co-operating and causing the university to dump the program since it was becoming a hot potato.

UPDATE:

This morning I got news from someone on the Thai course that immigration had arrested some of the 300 people on the course, I don't know any further details.

I doubt they give out 100 a year to say, Nigerians, or Moldovans, and since the majority applying are probably from a handful of countries they never have to give out more than 1,000 a year, which is perhaps the number of Thais applying for citizenship of another country every single week.

I've never met someone who has PR (though I have met one farang who was granted citizenship, he's was a former consul and has been here about 30 years and his father in law is a retired army general). Two people I know say it's all been approved but waiting on a desk somewhere for a signature (a fairly common excuse here).

It's like waiting for godot.

Reconciliation, as these politicians see it, is figuring out a deal where their asses are covered and a compromise is formed to bring Thaksin home. I don't see how reconciliation is going to happen without fudging the law to let Thaksin walk free. Never mind the money, he'll be given 'opportunities' to make lots more. The crucial details would be the checks and balances to ensure that Thaksin doesn't seize proxy power and start a process of retribution, and that the coup generals are guaranteed protection. Only then will the Red Shirts stop holding this country ransom, and the military stop meddling to keep them at bay.

So, ultimately the fabric of the nation is the loser, since Thailand once again compromises on law and order to suit dodgy individuals who are powerful enough to disrupt the entire country for their own gain.

Reconcile the ethics and principles of politicians first before you think about reconciling the country, it's the poor morals of our leaders that need an audit.

"My group will not obstruct the proposed talks, but will not let the government ignore its responsibility of the deceased," he added.

This is why PT can't agree on whether to reconciliation or not, because ultimately they want the govt to admit they were solely responsible for the deaths, never mind who is responsible for getting them there in the first place, or for the burning of Bangkok...They have a one-tracked mind.

When the next election rolls around Peau Thai and Bum Jai Thai are going to fight bitterly for Isarn. It's going to be very messy, involving lots of bidding and enormous amounts of money. And if/when PT get a chance to form a government they are almost certainly going to need to talk to Newin. I'm quite sure Thaksin absolutely hates his guts for being disloyal but he's going to have to offer BJT the earth to get their co-operation. One way or another they absolutely will be in the next coalition, but if they join PT they are going to have to fight tooth and nail to keep Thaksin's influence under control, if he's allowed to make a comeback the first thing on his agenda will be to destroy Newin.

interesting times ahead, and it remains to be seen how much of Isarn turn their backs on BJT for dumping Thaksin/PT. For sure several of the present BJT seats will fall to PT, but the PT defectors we are seeing will run to BJT.

PT needs to get at least 200 seats in the next election otherwise they haven't a hope in hel_l of reversing the 2007 constitution to achieve their number 1 goal. They are hoping for 240 plus so they don't need to rely on coalition partners who can block them. My guess is PT will get less than 180 this time around.

I'm no economist but money flows across borders by osmosis, it goes where it can earn the best returns, it's flowing into Thailand because Thailand is doing much better after the recession than the US or UK. It's six of one half a dozen of the other, you want stimulus and high economic growth, with low inflation, but you don't want the capital influx strengthening the baht too much. What to do?

And by the way, the baht is 25% up on the pound in the last 15 months, what could you do about that, it's the greatest problem for tourism right now, so stop pandering to the exporters (the filthy stinking rich lobbyists) who are enjoying record export growth, but bitching because they're pricing in dollars for a US market. Ask the Fed what's going to happen, using unnatural taxes on speculators just hurts the rest of us.

here's another juicy story about a farang being ripped off by a Thai women: She's a property agent in Pattaya, agreed to (and paid up front) a twelve month lease on his house, he went back to UK, discovered 6 months later she had forged his signature on multiple docs and somehow managed to lawfully sell the house to a loan shark. He's now struggling to reverse the mess and regain ownership, in between lots of bribery from both sides to get the co-operation of you-know-who.

http://forum.1stopthailand.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3446

Does South Africa have an extradition agreement with Thailand? Nelson Mandela is seen in his study. If it is a recent photo Mandela's diary manager would have briefed him on the 'suitability' of a photo op with this man. Though I don't doubt he might have indulged Thaksin a meeting on the basis of imparting some advice on how to reconcile a divided nation. Mandela is an compassionately astute man, on the one hand he would be concerned about Thailand's politics and willing to share his South African experiences, on the other he would be very cautious whom he's seen shaking hands with. If it were a fake his people would come out and say so. As for Thaksin, I can't be sure if he came away from any such meeting enlightened, but he loves a photo op doesn't he. I'm cynical.

Jatuporn does it again! I'm surprised anyone takes him seriously at all, and that Taptim would even waste good newspaper space on this, we all know it will come to nothing like ever other explosive accusation this man makes. Someone like this would lose his parliamentary seat in the next election for being branded such a sensationalist liar, but...TIT

All these armchair commentators should take it first then criticise later. Like the airport, it's bound to have glitches at first, though one wonders why when they've been testing it for more than a year! Lots of people speak of Suvarnabhumi as an awful airport and a mess but I disagree, perhaps not one of the world's top 10 but much better than most. We have a tendency to criticise everything here, I've no doubt this rail link has corruption and inefficiencies but will be useful and an acceptable experience.

The key thing here is that Bangkok taxis are generally good value so, they are always going to compete with this rail service, and as long as it remains 250 baht to get from airport to hotel door-to-door in 45 minutes people just aren't going to wait around for 30 minutes to board a 15 minute train journey and then still need a 15 minute 50 baht taxi ride at the other end. It will however be useful during rush hour when taxis become a 1.5 hour journey to the airport. Slap a 100 baht vehicle congestion charge on taxi use and I'm sure you'll find the rail link more sensible.

Cynically speaking, I doubt the DSI will reveal the full truth, for it would likely be quite damning. However, if you want to point fingers and get outraged you should be asking for a dual investigation here;

1. The manner in which these people were killed

2. The circumstances which brought them there in the first place.

Both are responsible, and both reprehensible.

Quick reply to Abrak: yes, I make no apologies for coming across as biased against the reds. The point of this lengthy post was to put across a reasonable, factually backed account of the unfolding events of the past three years in terms of electing (both MPs and a PM). You can spin the figures in any way you want to describe democracy in this country, I just wanted to show that much of the complaining made by the red shirts for 'democracy' and 'new elections' is unfounded, built on half truths and ultimately incorrect in their confident assertion that the majority of this country want a new election and don't want this govt.

If anything the poor should be protesting for a complete overhaul in the electoral college of this country because the present one is just causing endless conflict due to the way it can be manipulated.

The various merits and shames of Thaksin and Democracy is another argument entirely.

As is often the case in Thailand, even the policy makers at the very top come out with impractical but well intentioned remedies or rules that don't work, in this case by dissolving a cheating party you achieve little since they all just regroup again under a different name using the same logo as previous party and come back again, as we saw with the PPP and PT. It's a case of using a sledge hammer to drive in pin.

Rather, vote fraud should be tackled like this: When a candidate is red carded he is disqualified and the guy who came in second wins the seat simple. No re-run, no proxy candidates, if a PT candidate wins but was proven to be cheating he is disqualified and barred from running for a set time. PT loses the seat to the party that came in second, simple.

If vote fraud occurs at an executive level, whereby it's clear that the party leadership were aware of the cheating and failed to remove their candidate then they lose their share of the party list seats in that zone (which would be max. 8). So, rather than banning the PPP in the last election because of one crooked executive, they would have lost all their party list seats in the North, and they would have had the 15 yellow and red carded candidates disqualified and lost those seat too, a total of 23. This would have had significant bearing on their coalition.

Bout won't make it to America, either he will mysteriously get sprung from Thai jail, or a Russian secret agent will poison him with Polonium.

Russia will stop selling cheap oil to Thailand.

Pattaya tourism will half overnight due to 'restrictions from Moscow'

At least arms dealers will think about doing their arms deals somewhere else.

Bravo Thailand.