bankei

So I wonder why it is not more popular amoung Thai monks.

Two reasons that I know of. One is that from around 100 years ago Buddhism in Thailand became more book-learning oriented, since this was considered more "rational." Hence the requirement that monks pass the nak tham Pali exam before they can ordain other monks. The other is that many Thai men join the monkhood for short periods, or because they haven't any other choices in life, or a variety of other personal reasons. So it may be more like an occupation than a spiritual quest for them.

Maybe another reason. The monks are rather busy!. In the morning after bindabart, they clean up do some washing, and then are often invited out to ceremonies for lunch. Then come back, maybe clean up a bit, have a little nap, then there is often a group clean up session. Seeing visitors, and chatting to other monks, then it is evening chanting, then it is late so go to bed so they can get up early the next morning again.

Bankei

I just went to a temple and said I wanted to ordain as a novice. The abbot said why not become a monk instead, only kids become novices. So I did!

Bankei

Hmm. Quite contrary to what I know. No matter how old you are, the first ordain will only be as a novice and not as a monk. The novice has far less rules than of those monks.

Hi Thai-Aust. Maybe you misunderstood. I did become a novice before becoming a monk, briefly for about 10min. All monks are ordained as novices (Samenera) before going onto the full ordination (upasampada), usually the ceremonies are conducted together.

What the Abbot meant was I need not set my sights on becoming a novice and stopping there, but going to be a full monk.

Incidently a few weeks later about 50 boys ordained as novices for 2 weeks, and an older man, approx 50, ordained as a novice too - he didn't go on to become a monk.

Monks have 227 rules, novices have 10 to follow.

Regards

Bankei

I think at the average temple very few monks actually meditate. At my temple there were not group meditiation sessions, it is up to each monk to practice (or not practice). Most knew about meditation and could talk about it. One senior monk came to my room and suggested we meditate. I started meditating and had a peek at him, suspecting he wasn't meditating, he was laying down asleep!

Other rules broken by the monks include listening to music - some had mp3 players on most of the time. Another temporary monk smuggled in a playstation and TV into his room some days he didn't even make it to bindabart (almsround) in the moring because he was up all night playing games. All monks there used money. But these were all minor rules in the vinaya yet every monk recited these rules during the ordination ceremony.

I must say that even though the monks were breaking many minor rules they were all very good people - except one!

Hi Tp

I am 38 now, and ordained earlier this year. I have been a Buddhist since 1983, and always wanted to experience being a monk but just kept putting it off. This time on a trip to Thailand, I just decided to go for it and give it a try.

Nothing has changed with me (well, sabbe sankhara anicca anyway!), but now I have a better understanding of Buddhism from the local Thai perspective - which is very different to my approach.

I deliberately went to a 'village' temple, ie an average temple, not particularly famous. I experienced life as a monk the way that an average Thai would. I saw the good points and bad points of Thai Buddhism. And I impressed my Thai friends! They were amazed that a farang could memorise the Pali and become a monk. One member of my 'family' bombed out on the ordination day and could not remember the Pali, so could only become a novice.

Regards

Bankei

Lopburi

According to the Vinaya monks can have food after noon if medicine - and they are sick. But I doubt this could be classed as medicine in this case. The soup wasn't just for me, but a number of monks ate/drank soup that night.

I think it may come down to a definition of food. Is a clear liquid food or drink? Some monks refuse to drink milk after noon as they consider this a food.

On another occaision, I witnessed a 'bad' monk (with 21 Vassa) actually buy an ice cream after noon and eat it. He had the gall to ask me to pay for it!

Thaibebop, I was thinking the other way around. Monks in the cities tend to be more educated, and know the rules better. But this is not always the case and you probably cannot generalise like this.

Bankei

There is a new Documentary about an English Buddhist monk called "Lost in Lane"

http://www.poppoli.com/lostinlane.html

"SYNOPSIS (long)

It´s 1981. A boy at the age of 18 travels from England to Thailand to become a Buddhist monk.

Robert Eddison was born and raised in Nottingham. He had always had the feeling of being a Buddhist and started to practise from an early age. His teacher advised him to seek further guidence, leading Robert to a monastery in Thailand.

His plan to stay there for several months became a decade.

During his years in Thailand he corresponded with buddhists from all over the world. His life was transformed when he decided to visit one of his penpals in Iceland. There he found thousands of Buddhists who had immmigrated to this cold country in the north. He was asked to stay there to serve their religous needs, a task he happily accepted. Suddenly Robert became the only Buddhist monk in Iceland and started a formal religous movement in 1995.

Robert’s life was transformed again when he travelled to Kazakstan to visit a space station to celebrate the end of the millenium. Robert had always been interested in space travels and that interest led him to the suprise of his life. He fell in love with an aerobic instructor in Kazakstan, asked her to come with him to Iceland and marry him. That she did, and Robert disrobed after sixteen years of monkhood.

His marriage lastest for five months. He separated and started to work as a security guard. In few months Robert was transformed from a naïve monk to a “normal” person. Encountering the challenge of wearing pants, paying bills, as well as dealing with the headaches from the opposite sex.

His visit to the “normal world” ended in May 2004 when he travelled to Thailand to become Dhammanando again.

It looks like this film pay also be called "Act Normal"

There is a trailer available at:

http://www.poppoli.com/actnormal.html

Bankei

There is a new Documentary about an English Buddhist monk called "Lost in Lane"

http://www.poppoli.com/lostinlane.html

"SYNOPSIS (long)

It´s 1981. A boy at the age of 18 travels from England to Thailand to become a Buddhist monk.

Robert Eddison was born and raised in Nottingham. He had always had the feeling of being a Buddhist and started to practise from an early age. His teacher advised him to seek further guidence, leading Robert to a monastery in Thailand.

His plan to stay there for several months became a decade.

During his years in Thailand he corresponded with buddhists from all over the world. His life was transformed when he decided to visit one of his penpals in Iceland. There he found thousands of Buddhists who had immmigrated to this cold country in the north. He was asked to stay there to serve their religous needs, a task he happily accepted. Suddenly Robert became the only Buddhist monk in Iceland and started a formal religous movement in 1995.

Robert’s life was transformed again when he travelled to Kazakstan to visit a space station to celebrate the end of the millenium. Robert had always been interested in space travels and that interest led him to the suprise of his life. He fell in love with an aerobic instructor in Kazakstan, asked her to come with him to Iceland and marry him. That she did, and Robert disrobed after sixteen years of monkhood.

His marriage lastest for five months. He separated and started to work as a security guard. In few months Robert was transformed from a naïve monk to a “normal” person. Encountering the challenge of wearing pants, paying bills, as well as dealing with the headaches from the opposite sex.

His visit to the “normal world” ended in May 2004 when he travelled to Thailand to become Dhammanando again.

I think it is common in many Asian languages to omit the topic or subject of a sentence. It is very common in Japanese too.

I too doubt it is related to Buddhism.

Bankei

It depends on how you would define a good monk. I stayed in a Temple with about 20 monks there. None meditated, all used mobile phones and money. But they did the chanting, went to invitations and were generally considered to be good monks by the lay people.

While I was a monk there, one of the senior monks came in and gave me a bag of soup at night. I was with a lay person at the time, and the monk didn't try to hide it. I suspected this was against the rules, and asked the monk, but he said it was ok as it was clear soup with no 'food' in it. When he left my room, I asked the pay person, a Thai, who said, after much prompting, that monks shouldn't be eating soup at night. So I didn't eat that soup. But the lay person still held that monk, and others in high regard. The monk was worried that I might be hungry as I was a newly ordained monk, and not sued to not eating at night.

At my temple, I would say there are many good monks, as in good people, but not many good at following the precepts.

Bankei

Hello Camerata

Sorry for the long delay in replying.

When I look back now, I am amazed that I got through. I just went to a temple and said I wanted to ordain as a novice. The abbot said why not become a monk instead, only kids become novices. So I did!

Armed with a copy of the ceremony in Pali in English letters, it took me 4 days to memorise the whole thing. I had not read the Pali before going into the temple, and had trouble even reading it the first day, but constant repetition, being pushed by the monks, made it possible.

I also had to relearn some pronounciations to match the Thai (mis)pronounciation of certain Pali words. e.g Dhamma becomes Thamma etc.

I highly recomend anyone wanting to ordain to just do it. I was putting it off fors years, and regret that now.

Bankei

There is another book which I recently viewed in a Bangkok bookshop. I cannot remember the title, but it was mainly photographs with short commentary on each page. It appeared the Westerner in the book (an academic) ordained many years ago.

Anyone know this one?

Bankei

There are plenty of similar stories like that, especially in relation to the discussion of the vinaya. This is probably a natural progression of case law, as a monk having sex is a very serious issue, so just what consitutes sex would need to be established.

Some of the stories include

- The monk with the subtle neck (ie he could bend forward far enough)

- The monk with the long penis who can insert it in his own anus

- The monk asleep with an erection who is ridden by several village woman while asleep (not an offence as he didn't know!)

- The monks who trained a monkey

- Having sex with a corpse, or part of a corpse

Interesting stuff

Bankei

There are a series of excellent articles by Gregory Schopen on "protestant presumptions in the study of Buddhism."

One of which is “Archaeology and Protestant Presuppositions in the. Study of Indian Buddhism,” History of Religions 31/1 (August 1991).

From memory, he argues that there is ample evidence to suggest that monks were involved in various practices which have been considered degenarations of Buddhism, since very early in the history of Buddhism. Furthermore, this evidence has been ignored by most scholars, and sometimes even suppressed. So Buddhism hasn't degenarated over the years. It was like this from the begining, or very close to the beginning.

eg.

- It is assumed that monks only started using money recently. However, various archaeological evidence suggests otherwise. this eivdence includes finding evidence of a coin forging operation in a monastery.

- Monks holding property, owning slaves, being concerned with inheritance of property etc

- Belief in ghosts etc by monks was widespread from an early period.

- Monks, and Nuns, donating stupas, being concered with merit etc date from the early centuries BC, possibly as early as the 3rd century BC.

Schopen now has 3 books out which are a collection of his various articles over the years - fascinating stuff.

Regards

Bankei

hmmm It is spiritually inappropriate to claim "enlightenment" and is actually forbidden in the precepts I believe.

Hi jdinasia

A Bhikkhu falsely claiming to be 'enlightened' would be a parajika offence, ie one of the most serious offences which requires disrobing. Here is a translation of the rule from Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

Should any bhikkhu, without direct knowledge, boast of a superior human state, a truly noble knowledge and vision as present in himself, saying, "Thus do I know; thus do I see," such that regardless of whether or not he is cross-examined on a later occasion, he — being remorseful and desirous of purification — might say, "Friends, not knowing, I said I know; not seeing, I said I see — vainly, falsely, idly," unless it was from over-estimation, he also is defeated and no longer in communion.

Bankei

Depends on how long your are going to be there. I recently ordained in Thailand, temporarily, on a 3 month tourist visa.

Bankei

I must admit that I had a few discussions with Thais where I also argued that the Phra Phrom statue was not Buddhist, but a brahmanical idol. Of course, the Thais insisted it was Buddhist, just as all the Ganesh statues are (that elephant god).

So that got me thinking, why do I consider these to be non Buddhist? Is it my rational western upbringing? Maybe Buddhism for me is textual - ie if it is not in the Pali Nikayas/vinaya it is not Buddhist, but a later degeneration. Is this view justified?

Bankei

The situation in Sri Lanka is interesting. Initially the ordination lineage was reintroduced from Thailand, but the monks restricted the ordination to people of high caste only. People of other castes were not happy with being excluded, and so some went to Burma to seek ordination. The Thai lineage was called Siyam Nikaya, and the other from Burma was called the Amarapura Nikaya - named after the area in Burma in which the ordination came. Later others went to Burma seeking ordination, and a third Nikaya came into existance, called the Rammanya Nikaya.

All of these 3 Nikaya underwent further division. The Siyam split into 2, over a dispute invloving the validity of ordinaiton. These sub nikayas are also called 'nikaya' which makes it confusing, but this is sometimes translated as 'chapter'.

Further splits have occurred, and there are now something like 30+ chapters (nikaya) in existance. I think the Rammanya is the onlly Nikaya without division at the moment, a split occured, but the 2 parties rejoined togther in the 1950s.

The monks of the Siyam Nikaya are more numerous and are considered more lax in their practice. Monks are the other 2 nikaya are less numerous, but more strcit in their practice.

I beleive the chapters have leadership, and then each Nikaya has a overall leader - forget what they are called now. As far as I know, there is no overall leader of the whole Sangha in Sri Lanka comparable to the Sangharaja in Thailand.

For those interested there is a interesting article by Steven Kemper, "Reform and Segmentation in Monastic Fraternities in Low Counry Sri Lanka." Journal of Asian Studies, Vol 51/1, 1980, pp. 27-41.

Bankei

Hi

I am going over to Thailand again soon, and will be taking my laptop. I want to do some work on the internet so would like my own connection rather than going to the local internet cafe.

Can anyone recomend a course of action?

Wireless broadband would be preferred. I have a phone in the apartment, but it goes through the swtichboard - ie not a direct line. So I think that would make connecting costly (tho I am not sure about this).

I will only be staying about 3 months, then coming back home for 3 months, than back again. So not sure on signing up for a contract or getting something like a prepaid kit. I will probably need around 4 hours per day connection.

I have an apartment in Bangkok Ratchada area, but will be travelling for a few weeks up country (chantaburi), so something that works up there too would be good.

Thanks in advance

Bankei

Thanks for that. It seems for Thais it is a "work and holiday visa" not the same as a "working holiday visa"

Hi

Australia now has a working holiday visa for young Thai's to travel to Australia and stay for up to 12 months.

see

Aussies Launch Work-holiday Visas

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=51669

Australian Thai Fta Possiable New Visa, new visa - info needed

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=52485

I've got two Thai female friends whom want to travel to Australia to improve their English and work etc. They are not Bar girls, but am still worried about Australia's policy of discrimination against Thai females when applying for a visa.

Does anyone know of people who have applied for this visa? If so, any tips.

Also, one of the above links suggests the application needs to be a university graduate. However, there is no mention of this requirement on the Australian Immigration website:

http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/visiting_whm.htm

Nor the Australian Embassy website:

http://www.austembassy.or.th/visas/working_holiday_eng.php

Thanks in advance

Bankei

Thanks Richard for the detailed reply. And thanks Katana. I came across that report too when looking on google. Interesting fair, hope it is on when I'm there! ps Who is that sloan guy? seems like an interesting guy - it seems has fathered children in every country.

Bankei

Hi

I may be spending some time in Chantaburi in the coming months. I have never been there and wonder what it is like. Is anyone living or working in the area - any advise.

Bankei.

I wonder who the leaders of these so called sects are? There is no one leader of Theravada. In Thailand there are 2 Nikaya's, but I suppose the Sangharaja would be termed leader. In Sri Lanka there are 3 main Nikaya with about 20 sub Nikaya. I don't think there is a Sangharaja there. Similar in Myanmar. There are 9 Nikaya's but no Sangharaja. Not to mention all of the other countries.

Mahayana is even more diverse. There could be no one whom cold be called leader of Mahayana.

As for Hinayana. Theravada is only one school of the so called Hinayana. There were 18 Hinayana schools in early India, and Theravada is the only surviving one. Many do not like the term 'Hinayana', other options are 'non Mahayana', Nikaya Buddhism etc.

Hi

I am studying law at the moment, and also hope to work in the legal filed in Bangkok.

Would anyone know what the approx salaries are like.

Bankei