bankei

Yes, it is not what the Buddha taught, but it seems to be fairly common in Thailand.

annica, dukkha, anatta

everything, everyone, no exceptions

Nice and pithy, but I'd go one further and be politically incorrect and say that anything having to do with Islam is death to Buddhism. They are the fundamental enemies of the Buddha's teaching, and the reason Buddhism died out in India after the Holocaust of their merciless slaughter of monks and nuns and their wanton destruction of Buddhist institutions of learning (for example, the razing of Nalanda monastery).

As Buddhists, we may not be inclined to harbor enemies, but still must recognize a disease where it exists and do what we can to resist it, lest it kill the entire organism: that disease is Islam, and it is the scourge of humanity, and they aim to kill all of us, according to their own scriptures and modern-day teachings! To be forewarned against those who would take our lives and wilfully destroy anything having to do with the Buddha-Dharma, even in this modern age (e.g. Bamiyan, the South of Thailand) is to be forearmed.

rikpa, by your logic all Buddhist monks would be enemies of Buddhism because one monk assassinated the Sri Lankan Prime Minister in 1959.

As Buddhists

I doubt you are a Buddhist.

Regards

Bankei

If the first precept is "He should not kill a living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should he incite another to kill. Do not injure any being, either strong or weak, in the world," then why do Buddhists participate in warfare? I have a quote from the Vietnamese spiritual leader, Thich Quang Do, that makes me thinks the anwer is "No, Buddhist should not support war." He says the Vietnamese Buddhists allowed their nationalism to come first.

The first precept is not to kill. War involves killing. Buddhists participate in war for the same reason as others, greed, delusion and anger. Not all Buddhists follow the teachings of the Buddha.

Bankei

A lot of Thai women become Mae Chii without shaving the head. Shaving is not a requirement, it is not part of the 8 precepts.

Bankei

Hi Casanundra

I am half way through a LLB degree in Australia and would be interested in further study in Thailand. Masters degree sounds good, interested in taxation, business and banking etc.

Bankei

hi

I have read the book too and also thought similar things. I actually asked a monk many years ago and he responded that arahats cannot liek so it must be true!

When you look at it, it just seems there are many things that the biographer could not have seen or heard about. Its not necessarily lying, Mahabua is telling a story and has simply added some bits to it!?.

Since then Mahabua has allegedly declared himself enlightened, cried in public and also organised a huge collection of gold donations for 'saving the nation'. Strange behaviour for a 'forest monk'.

Another interesting aspect of a monks duties is care of other sick monks. On another forum a monk has pointed out the requirements of monks to look after each other during times of sickness. In this context, the Buddha said "He who would tend to me should tend to the sick." (Mv.VIII.26.3).

This reminds me of a quote, from the Vinaya I think.

The Buddha urged his monks to go out and spread the teachings, "for the good of the many, the welfare of the many, let not two of you go in the same direction." (paraphrased from memory).

Bankei

Did some googling and found the quote. It is in the Khandhaka section of the Mahâvagga which is in the Patimokha of the Vinaya:

"Go forth, O Bhikkhus, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, for the good, for the happiness of gods and men."

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha062.htm

and

Go ye now, O Bhikkhus, and wander, for the gain of the many, for the welfare of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the good, for the gain, and for the welfare of gods and men, Let not two of you go the same way, Preach, O Bhikkhus, the doctrine which is glorious in the beginning, glorious in the middle, glorious at the end, in the spirit and in the letter; proclaim a consummate, perfect, and pure life of holiness. There are beings whose mental eyes are covered by scarcely any dust, but if the doctrine is not preached to them, they cannot attain salvation.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe13/sbe1312.htm

This reminds me of a quote, from the Vinaya I think.

The Buddha urged his monks to go out and spread the teachings, "for the good of the many, the welfare of the many, let not two of you go in the same direction." (paraphrased from memory).

Bankei

chownah - dont thank the thais for keeping buddhism alive. i beleieve it (had to be) reintroduced via sri.lanka and has always been stronger/more serious force in neighboring countries esp myanmar. thailand is a new phenomenon (sp). it was the burmese + khmer that stomped all over the 'thais' before the new dog had its day - siam was born and conqured (sp) its neighbors -primarily the khmer/lao + pushed back the 'burmese'.

i think jdinasia has something - do not judge a monk by your western standards, certainly not that of christian clergy.

monks are really cool. i have a good time joking with them (they old guys). in the end - we are all faulty players.

Thailand has had a Theravada Buddhist presence for a long time, possibly from as early at the 5th century. As far as I know there is no evidence that the Sangha had died out and had to be reestablished, but there is evidence of Singhalese monks in Thailand around the 12th century.

But the Sangha did die out in Sri Lanka - more than once. In the 1700s Thai monks travelled to Sri Lanka and ordained monks there, re-establishing the ordination lineage. Today the largest group of monks there is known as the Siam Nikaya. (There are also two other lineages introduced later from Burma - Ramanna Nikaya and the Amarapura Nikaya).

Bankei

$1000 to ordain is too much for me. Are you sure about this? I figured out that I will have enough for my airplane ticket, visa, and travel in Thailand. I will keep asking around, including monks, but I hope the price for being ordained is as low as possible - actually, I thought it was free!

Sorry for the late reply.

Yes, I am sure that is what it cost me.

You can do it cheaper, much cheaper. But you must realise that Thais think Westerners are rich, and may expect more in the form of gifts and donations etc. How much you give, if at all, is up to you.

Bankei

Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,

kārako na, kiriyā 'va vijjati.

Dukkha certainly is, but no-one suffering dukkha,

there's no doer, but the deed is found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI 90

I ordained early last year. Initially I wanted to stay just for 7 days, but the abbot wanted me to put in 15 days, which I agreed on. I had to stay in the temple for about 7 days before this while trying to memorise the chanting and learning the ropes. I couldn't speak much Thai and no one spoke any English there, but I got through it and it was a great experience.

With the ordination you have the option of just ordaining as a novice or going for the full monk (upasampada) ceremony. The novice ceremony is not that serious and I was told I could have been ordained straight away and could even read the chanting (ie not memorise). But the Bhikkhu ordination is very serious and you must memorise the whole lot - which is considerable as you must memorise the novice part too. No notes can be read.

At first I could not even pronounce the Pali. It was very difficult and I wanted to give up, but luckily some monks pushed me and I was able to memorise it in 5 days. I was told Thais take from 1 day to 2 weeks to memorise it all. pronunciation is also very important, and they will insist you pronounce the Pali in the Thai way. eg Dhamma sounds like Thamma etc.

Just get one of your Thai friends or relatives to help you find a temple and give it a shot.

Bankei

This would be related to the Siima (pali word). A Siima is a boundary in which important monastic ceremonies are held such as ordination ceremonies and reciting of the Patimokha (monks rules). The nine stones would mark the boundary of the siima, probably around the 'bot'.

siima boundary are necessary because there needs to be agreement by all monks present for certain ceremonies. eg. at the ordination ceremony all the monks present must agree (or not object) to the ordination of the new monk. There may be many monks in the temple who do not attend, therefor there needs to be a barrier to distinguish those in from those out of the ceremonies. If a wat has no siima, then ordination ceremonies cannot be carried out.

As time has progressed the rules for the siima have developed and become more complex.

Bankei

Sabbe satta marisanti, maranantam hi jivitam.

All beings will die, for life ends in Death.

I agree completely

I agree with Grover. Police intended to kill, and then performed the act of killing = Bad Karma.

Where does the Thai forest tradition fit in here? Is it part of the Thammayut?

Chownah

Where does the Thai forest tradition fit in here? Is it part of the Thammayut?

Chownah

Well, it depends what you mean by forest tradition. Most of Achan Mun's disciples were Dhammayut, but with one noteable exception, Achan Chah was already ordained in the Mahanikaya when he became a student of Acharn Mun. Many others were too, but they disrobed and reordained in the Dhammayut. Acharn Chah didn't reordain and now all of his descentants are Mahanikaya, including most of the Western monks.

There are also forest traditions that are not descended from Acharn Mun, including many Mahanikay monks.

Bankei

The 5 precepts are called Pancasila and are recited in the Pali language. If you have ever been to a temple or tam bun ceremony, you have probably heard them recited.

In Pali the precepts are worded like this:

xxxx veramaṇī sikkhāpadam samādiyāmi

xxx is the thing to be avoided, such as killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying and taking intoxicants.

veramani means to abstain from something

sikkhāpadam is a precept, or training rule

samādiyāmi means something like to take it upon oneself.

So all up it would mean something like this:

I undertake the training rule to abstain from xxx

It is interesting regarding the Mahayana influence in Thailand. Kwanyin is becoming very popular with shrines located in many Theravada Wats. There are also esoteric type influences, especially outside the capital. And then there are the Bramanical influences which seem to be even stronger.

Bankei

Camerata

This article may be of interest:

Velez de Cea, Abraham

2005 "Emptiness in the pali suttas and the question of Nagarjuna's orthodoxy."

Philosophy East and West, Vol 55/4, pp. 507-529.

OBITUARY

Acclaimed historian David Wyatt dies

Thai studies expert aged 69 passes away in New York after long battle with MS

Acclaimed Thai studies professor David Wyatt passed away yesterday. He had

been suffering from multiple sclerosis for seven years and had spent the

last year of his life at the Kendall Nursing Home in Ithaca, New York

State.

He died peacefully with his wife Alene by his side. Wyatt was 69.

Thai intellectuals mourned the loss of Wyatt, who made great contributions

to Thai and Southeast Asian studies.

"Even during his retirement and failing health, David continued to write,

to give lectures, and to mentor students. He is a role model and an

inspiration to all of us," Thak Chaloemtiarana, director of the Southeast

Asia Program at Cornell University, wrote in a note to his friends and

colleagues in Thailand.

Professor Wyatt has long been recognised as a leading authority on

Southeast Asia and the foremost historian of Thailand. He also spoke

fluent Thai.

"David Wyatt was a great teach-er. Without him the history of Thailand

would not have reached this far," said Charnvit Kasetsiri, a

well-respected historian who was the first Thai advisee of Wyatt at

Cornell University in 1970s.

Wyatt wrote many books on Thai history. Among his publications, "Thailand:

A Short History" is his milestone and became the standard textbook on Thai

history. The book, first published by Yale University Press in 1984, and

then Silkworm Books in 1991, has been reprinted many times. The book is

the authority on Thai history in the English world, Charnvit said.

Well-known writer Chiranan Pitpreecha, who was Wyatt's last advisee at

Cornell, praised her teacher as "a pillar in the field of Thai and

Southeast Asian Studies".

Born in 1937, Wyatt studied philosophy at Harvard University, where he

gained a bachelor's degree in 1959. He received an MA in History from

Boston University in 1960. He graduated from Cornell University with a PhD

in History in 1966.

His book "The Politics of Reform in Thailand (1969)" was his dissertation

at Cornell.

>From 1964 to 1968, Wyatt taught Southeast Asia History at the School of

Oriental and African Studies at the University of Lon-don. From 1968 to

1969, he taught at the University of Michigan.

Subsequently, in 1969 he accepted a teaching position at Cornell

University, where he served as director of the Southeast Asia program,

chair of the Department of History, and the John Stambaugh Professor of

History & Asian Studies, before retiring in 2002.

Dr Wyatt briefly served as interim curator of the Echols Collection at

Cornell University in 2005.

Over four decades of research in Southeast Asian studies Wyatt collected

an impressive collection of historical documents.

The collection - acquired by Ohio University's Alden library in October

last year - consists of roughly 15,000 volumes, about half of which are in

Thai, and includes most of the standard works on Thailand and Southeast

Asia in general, a substantial number of Thai royal chronicles, the

greater part of King Chulalongkorn's (1868-1910) diaries and letters, and

an extensive array of monographs, memoirs and cremation volumes.

"David Wyatt to Thai history is like DGE Hall to Southeast Asian history.

He validates its existence as a field of studies," said Professor

Thongchai Winichakul, of University of Wisconsin-Madison's Centre of

Southeast Asian Studies.

Subhatra Bhumiprabhas

The Nation

So, than rank is not something that is dealt with through Pali cannon of traditions in Thai Buddhism but more typical means?

Hi

I don't think you will find much about ranks in the Pali canon. It seems this is all a later development. Just imagine what it would have been like back in the Buddha's days - no need for rank, other than maybe seniority based on vassa. As time progressed rulers started patronising the Sangha for political means.

Also compare the situation in other Theravada countries. Burma and Sri Lanka also have rankings, awards etc for monks, though they differ from Thailand. I think Myanmar actively uses awards for political means - keeps the monks in line. The Govt often gives 'dana' to high ranking monks so they can get good publicity etc

I guess this happens in Thailand too. Monks get monetary allowances depending on their rank, so they will be less likely to criticse the governement/Sangha hierarchy as they may be worried about losing money or worried about not being promoted (= more perks).

This is not the first time Acharn Maha Boowa has dabbled in politics. Back a few years ago during the financial crisis he was campaigning for people to donate gold to 'save' Thailand. I think they raised over a ton of gold! After it was collected there was some sort of dispute in that he didn't want to hand it over unless the government could guarantee it would be used in a certain way.