Ajarn

Agreed sabaijai,

in fact I have a feeling that it is actually against the law for Monks to break some of these rules - a few years back the Thai press carried a story about a Thai Abbot in Oz that had been frequenting brothels. The press, if I remember correctly, were stating that when (if?) he returned to LOS he was subject to arrest!

There's an old story about Theravada monks and their alms. It goes something along the lines of a leper, whilst giving some of his food arms, lost his thumb. Yep, it dropped in to the alms bowl. The monk carmly consumed the diseased thumb along with the rest of the collection. While I would think this is an urban myth, it goes someway to explain that the monks ARE obliged to eat all food given alms. Often though this is taken back to the temple and shared with other monks. What is left is shared by visitors and temple staff after the monks have finished (obviously the food is in serving dishes in the middle of the table, I don't mean eating the monk's left over dregs). I often eat at my temple - we take food with us as many visitors do. After the monks have finished, we tuck in. I am a vegitarian, so I only eat what I am assured is veggie.

Thai women are forbidden by cistom from touching a monk or even directly passing something to one. I do not really know the prostitute scene etc, but I would thought most Thai women would be horrified if a monk come on to them, and would never consider the reverse. I am sure it does happen, but I would have thought rarely. Mia Nois I fear is mostly down to myth and rumour - Thai women can become very jellous, it would be good ammo to let a rumour start that 'her' enemy entertains the local Abbot!

He was the so called green monk because of the color of his robes. He fled to the USA. He was sprung using an Amex card in brothels in Australia.

Sounds like you're referring to that rascal, Phra Yantra. Last I heard, he was on trial in the U.S. for causing a traffic accident (he was driving) where people were killed, and another monk was crippled

Is the name of this beautiful northern Thai city "Chiangmai" or "Chiang Mai" ?

Subsequently, is it "Chiangrai" or "Chiang Rai" ?

I disagree that Chiengmai is a beautiful city anymore...I think the city is 'interesting', 'historic', etc., but not 'beautiful', overall, with the pollution, billboards, ugly new construction, traffic, etc. Beautiful Province, though

Kevin, I grew up in Marin, and you lived the dream I had as a kid there. What a great way to live, I still think

Where you ever a part of the Gate 5 community in Sausalito?

Now, if he were to spray it on his nipples first, then you should be worried....

If the driver's window is down, he'll get it, too, as everything being sucked out will pass by his nose...

Many years ago, I had a piece of the 'Grey Rabbit' hippy bus company in the States. On our busses, cigs were not allowed, but joints were. The driver only needed to open his small side window to get a buzz off all the escaping smoke..

Did you happen to be out of Frisco?

I knew a gal named JOE that had an ol man named TOM and she was involved with GREEN TURTLE and had a home at Harbin Hot Springs up in Lake Copunty.

Fact I stayed a few times at their home. Kinda different being around where most folks don't wear cloths.

You know, you can only call it Frisco if yer' from there

You are correct, sir. I'm an Old Hippy from San Francisco, bottom line.

I knew Joe very well (knew Tom, but not well) for a period of perhaps 12 years in the 70's-80's. One of the nicest, truest, most honest people I've ever had the pleasure to know. Certainly a Nature Girl. I was pretty shy, but I still could enjoy the scene. At that time, she was working for green tortoise doing some driving, accounting, and sort of a right hand man of the owner of green tortoise, a very interesting guy and good friend/co-worker of mine, too.

Green Tortoise http://greentortoise.com came after the Grey Rabbit. I was among a loosely-knit group of folks who started the alternative travel scene using Gryhound Diesel coaches (4801's for any bus freaks) around 1973, mostly along the west coast with twice-weekly round trips between Berkeley and Seattle for $13 each way. Soon they expanded out to Baja, Mardis Gras, coast to coast, Alaska, Mexico...Man, what an incredible scene then. Lots of young European travellers along with grandmothers and Nature Folks. Still the best way to see America if you want an organized 'tour'. Even if you don't like tours or tourist stuff, you still might enjoy green tortoise because they tend to go to places that other tourists aren't at, like a beautiful natural hotspring with nobody around for miles and mles, or an isolated beach in Baja....

Sorry for the long wind. Nice memories for me. Thanks for the chance

This is a wind up if ever I saw one. Only pillocks would fall for it, or bored witless morons.

Agreed, she even spelt necassary right and then breaks into pidgeon englsh in other posts, took me all my life to get that one right, I am spectacle about tthis pist

Pome hen duay...

Now, if he were to spray it on his nipples first, then you should be worried....

If the driver's window is down, he'll get it, too, as everything being sucked out will pass by his nose...

Many years ago, I had a piece of the 'Grey Rabbit' hippy bus company in the States. On our busses, cigs were not allowed, but joints were. The driver only needed to open his small side window to get a buzz off all the escaping smoke..

Hi,

Does anyone out there have any advice on van hire/furniture removals in Thailand? I will be moving up to Chiang Mai from Hat Yai in a couple of weeks and have a fair amount of kit to move.

Tried Budget car hire, but they only have mini-vans and not the full van of the same size. Driving myself would be the most convenient way but if furniture removals worked out cheap enough that would be second best.

Cheers

Whem my wife and I moved back to Chiang Mai from Songkhla a few years ago, we used ETO (Express Transport Organization) We paid, as I remember, about 4 baht per kilo, picked up from our house

4 years ago, I moved 2 big bikes and a household from Bkk to CM by private 6-wheel truck. It was 7,000 baht, all inclusive

Figuring from the 6-wheel cost, you might be looking at around 20,000 to move from Hat Yai to CM, would be my guess...

Here is the ETO website http://www.eto.mot.go.th/index1.htm

They have an office in Songkhla, but I only see the Bkk info

Express Transportation Organization

485/1Sri Ayudahya Rd, BKK 10400; Tel 2450647; Fax 2452104

Transportation Costs, Including Fuel Costs and Freight Rates (2000) to give you maybe a rough guide http://www.boi.go.th/english/tid/data/BOI_...tation1200.html

Good luck. You are making a smart move

There is (maybe was) at least one school in Bangkok where they teach Sex workers (and Ex-) Real world skills so they can get out/stay out of that field. I don't know if has been succesfull and I can't remember what the place is called.

/SM

Maybe you are thinking of Empower?

EMPOWER Foundation, supports women in the sex industry

57/60 Tivanond Road

Nontburi 11000, Thailand

Tel: 02-526-8311, 02-968-8021,

02-968-8022

Fax: 02-526-3294

http://www.geocities.com/wari9/thailand.htm

Has a list of many other women's organizations in Thailand, including hilltribe women's rights.

LF, trying to confuse the folks with some common sense?

Having waited one morning this week in a queue of traffic at a red light for 23 minutes before it went green, without a single blast of the horn from anyone... you have to admit that Thai drivers have patience. (or is it simply that they know that blowing the horn would be counterproductive when there's a policeman controlling the lights).

This was going against the flow of the traffic, coming home from the school run in the morning rush hour... - I'm fairly sure the police will switch to green on whichever road is backed up the most once the backlog is clear on the road currently at green, which means if you're on the road with the least traffic (i.e. only a few hundred cars in 20 mins), lights can be a long wait.

Thailand (and Singapore, of course) are the only countries I've driven in where horns aren't the favored expression in traffic

I, too, find it pretty amazing, and pretty cool. That 'cay yen' driving style is like a goal or ideal for me, I think

Traffic cops...Do they seem to mostly be the ones causing the traffic??

Okay, what does 'educated opinion' mean to you? Simply a Thai with a general education, giving their opinion, it seems. To me, it means an opinion from a Thai with direct knowlege or education in the topic they are giving an opinion about. A Thai with zero formal education can still offer a valid 'educated' opinion on such things on being Thai, etc...

How did this teacher come to this conclusion? Did she do a study? Is her academic speciality 'prostitution among Payap students' ? What qualifies her opinion as 'educated'. Your hypothesis isn't supported by anything, that I can see.

The kind of evidence you are looking for doesn't exist. These girls aren't going to participate in any kind of survey.

All we can do is listen to those in the know and draw conclusions. In this case, I am not the only poster who has Thai associates who are closely involved with the universities and can offer a reasonable estimate. Being a THAI techer at a number of universities for 10 years plus in my mind qualifies them to make estimates. I think we can assume that the estimate is based on their constant involvement with the students IN ADDITION TO the fact that they are Thai and speak Thai absolutley fluently and will therefore always be privy to information that you and I will remain blissfully unaware of.

As a farang teacher with 16 years teaching experience, what is your estimate for Payap?

I have never met one from Payap, so there might not be any.

Okay, my head's not that far in the sand

Of course, human nature tells us that there are people hooking, in various forms, throughout Thai society, as well as every other society I'm aware, I feel sure.

But, I feel it would be irresponsible of me to suggest a percentage or number of hookers at Payap. I have no evidence, so anything I say would only be my unsubstantiated opinion, as is yours. It is pointless conjecture, from my way of looking at things. I'm a Scientist, so I prefer to use facts and personal experiences when expressing my opinion. I try to qualify every post I make here, since my goal is to be clear, fair, and reasonable. (insert angel image here)

Even as a Teacher with 16 years teaching experience here, there are plenty of topics where my opinion would not be an educated opinion, were I to offer it. Numbers of hookers at Payap is just one such issue

And, lets not forget that not all opinions are even 'honest' . How can one know what kind of personal predjudices may be at work?

I would still be interested to know how your teacher friend came to her conclusion, and you don't seem to know, since I've asked you this at least a couple of times. Maybe next time you talk with her, you could ask, and let us know. Maybe she does know what she's talking about, and credible evidence on such a topic would certainly be interesting, if not educational, to many here, including myself.

I am here to learn,too, na'?

CMT, I hope there are no hard feelings. Maybe my confronting your figures felt like I was in your face too much. Admittedly, I intended to be in your face, but not too much

Really, sir, you seem to be reading MUCH more into my words than I've said..

MY OPINION BASED ON PERSONAL FANTASIES ETC.???

I hoped, "based on hearsay, personal predjudices, personal fanatasies....whatever". would put my statement in the proper perspective. Of course, I don't know where your opinion is rooted, but the possibilities I listed are where many factless opinions seem to come from, in my experience. Not a personal attack from me, merely to point out the unsubstantiated numbers you are promoting

a Thai's educated opinion

Okay, what does 'educated opinion' mean to you? Simply a Thai with a general education, giving their opinion, it seems. To me, it means an opinion from a Thai with direct knowlege or education in the topic they are giving an opinion about. A Thai with zero formal education can still offer a valid 'educated' opinion on such things on being Thai, etc...

How did this teacher come to this conclusion? Did she do a study? Is her academic speciality 'prostitution among Payap students' ? What qualifies her opinion as 'educated'. Your hypothesis isn't supported by anything, that I can see.

Now I know without a doubt that you have a vested interest in convincing yourself that only .005% of Payap girls are prostitutes.

Wow, your judgements and observations are way off. I offered no numbers or percentages, and I gave no evidence of some sort of vested interest. Paranoid?

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but you appear to be yet another farang who after spending significant time here decides that he is an absolute expert

I have never said anything to suggest that, but some people here do seem threatened by my comments or experiences at times. As I have stated before, I have little time for fragile egos. I do try to be honest and straightforward, without any hidden agendas or 'sideways' comments. I'm here to learn and to share with others. My intention is to be fair and balanced, and to be open to straightforward communication- but not someone's ranting, closed-minded bullshit. If you have any evidence of my being different than I've just stated, then please let me know in an honest and clean way. Comments such as I quoted above are not conducive to good communication and, to me, signals that the speaker has their reasoning mind maybe turned off, for, again, your hypothesis is not supported by any facts that I'm aware of.

Why do you discount the opinions of so many Thais, especially when you know that one has taught for a decade in these institutions and the others have studied there? What leads you to believe that they are simply misinformed, while you know the facts?

Oh, my, here we go again. The only 'fact' I've stated is that your teacher friend has no evidence to be seen to back her opinion. I've suggested nothing to say that I know better than Thais, nor do I discount the credible opinions of Thais, or anyone else. Again, if you have evidence otherwise, please present it.

I am simply relating information given to me by solid sources. I am told that roughly 40% actively participate in some form of prostitution. I trust my sources and I trust that this figure represents a reasonable estimate.

You are welcome to trust anyone you want. So far, your opinion of 'solid sources' does not match mine, and I've clearly stated why in ever message I've posted.

Anyway, enough of my beating my head against the wall. If you have any other comments that aren't unwarranted personal attacks on me, then please say them, I'm willing to listen with an open mind. But, it takes two of like mind for this to work.

And due to the fact that he started his career as a 6000 baht per month policeman,he should be able to do wonders with all illegal aspects of life in Thailand.

And as you say,he is from CMX ,he should have a good feel for the things there.

6,000 baht is what they get NOW I bet when he started he was on about 1000 bht a month.

What an investor he is!!!

More like 4,000 then, but Thaksin surely didn't have to live off that money...His family has been quite well off for a long time with Shinawatra Silk, and such. Word is, his wife is the real brains behind his business success. Of course, his government-guaranteed monopolies on supplying computers and pagers to the government is what made him rich

The 3 million baht investment visa is no longer available and was stopped last October according to information I have been given.

The inconvienience of 4 trips to singapore or KL with overnight stays and 4 payments of the recently drastically increased pricing for the 'extention' are non trivial.

The mild xenephobia I can handle but the obstales being placed in my path from simply living and spending money / supporting Thai's is starting to get to me.  Thailand is a wonderful country but being such a second class citizien while also being expected to pay double for everything is getting old.

Lastly I did contact a coupe of reputable consulting companies (SA etc) as well as my local visa agent.  All have told me that there is nothing they can do for me.  Of course the disreputable companies and government officers can still get one.

This is essentially wrong and right. The 3 million Baht investor visa was discontinued , but it is thinly disguised as an 'extension' now. All you need is to prove that you have brought in 3 million baht; savings account, condo investment,

or govt. bonds and then you will be given a one year renewable extension. You must already be in Thailand on a valid visa first, such as a non-o visa.

I can confirm that in Chiang Mai, though the extensions are 90 days, at least in my case (last week). They were quite clear that the 3million I showed in my bank account was all I needed to show. And there are no restrictions, it seems, meaning, I think, that I can use the money during they year, as long as I show that confirmed 3 million baht each year.

They also mentioned, informally, that they are looking at ways to tighten up the bank account stuff, because they believe many people are simply borrowing short-term from friends in order to qualify for the one-year stamp....Immigration wants to somehow make sure that the funds are really owned by the applicant, so they might require that your bank account be held for a certain period of time before it can be used as surety for the visa extension, or maybe creating a Sponsor category, which would require a substantially larger bank account to be shown... I am currently 'sponsoring' a friend who has a Thai family, but only gets a pension of about 15,000 baht a month. I'm not sure, though, that I can take the risk next year. The Immigration lady said immigration would 'Mai hen duay' (not agree) if someone were to (illegally) provide funds to be used in a 'visa fraud'...

I got the clear impression that some folks at immigration really do try to help some folks they feel are deserving, like long-established farangs with Thai families, but making less than the required amount by law for a one-year stamp. Just because someone doesn't have enough money, it doesn't mean that they have to leave Thailand and do visa runs...They can give extensions of 90 days, or anything shy of that, requiring the applicant to go back to immigration for another extension, which is a lot better than having to shoulder the expense of visa runs...

Your attitude and demeanor at immigration are of critical importance, in my experience. Speaking Thai helps. Smiling helps. Wearing clean, appropriate clothing helps to keep you in the game, too.

Huay Thung Thaew Lake is always good. There is also boating, kayaking and bicycles for rent if you wish to exercise.

Huay Thung Thaew is great!

But, it's also my 'Secret Garden', so only tell nice people about it

The Thai Army has done a great job in managing the area over the years

.......... young children selling flowers in tourist areas late at night. There seem to be an especially large number of children involved compared to (hilltribe) poor people selling flowers in other parts of the city.

These kids are obviously in a vulnerable position, not to mention that no 5-12 year old kid should be walking the streets every night until 2am.. 

Very True.

BUT in the eyes of the authorities those children do not matter,

they are no THAI!!

Not always true, actually. There are a number of Thai kids (sometimes whole families) out there selling flowers into the night. Not so much in the downtown areas, but more on the outskirts, in my experience, and at main Super hiway and middle ring road intersections, until ahout 10pm, it seems.

And the authorities still aren't showing interest in their welfare, either. Even under the new child protection laws, where parents are now accountable, and authorities have farther-reaching powers to affect action.....

How do you encourage police to do their jobs without them doing their jobs on you?

Come to think of it, when there's a relatively unexpected reason to slow down (someone driving in front of you suddenly indicating to torn right (if that) and slowing down)  then I'd most likely flash all 4 indicator lights.  Then turn those off (if there's time) and indicate left and then right.  

In more serious cases, like a kid or very solid obstacle entering the road in front of me requiring serious braking, and/or just about any situation at night with a high likely hood of any traffic behind you being asleep or drunk at the wheel,  I also flash my two back-pointing flood lights.   Those really are an excellent thing to have.    You know, suppose you're turning right yourself but are waiting for on-coming traffic to clear so you can make the right turn crossing their lane.  At the same time you're watching your rear view mirror to make sure any traffic behinf you in your lane has seen you and is moving to the left to overtake, as opposed to driving straight at you..  That's a very good occaisioan to use those bright backward pointing lights as well.

Those things are really not expensive to install, most shops will do it for a couple 100 baht, including a neat little switch in the dash.   They're mostly intended for providing visibility when having to back up on a dark country road, or off-road, when the regular white reverse-lights aren't bright enough.

Finally.. if there's some dude behind you at night with his high beams on....   Can give him some of his own medicine.    A single flash is usually enough, my reverse beaming lights are rather bright you see...

Cheers,

Chanchao

Come to think of it, when there's a relatively unexpected reason to slow down (someone driving in front of you suddenly indicating to torn right (if that) and slowing down)  then I'd most likely flash all 4 indicator lights.  Then turn those off (if there's time) and indicate left and then right.  

I usually just tap my brakes a couple of times to get the attention behind me, then just use my left signal to indicate I'll be passing the car on the left that's waiting to turn right, assuming cars behind me will see the car turning right as I move over...I also have only seen Thais use the left signal in such a case. (or maybe I unconciously tune out the right signal to focus on the left signal on the car ahead of me- afterall, I'm only really concerned with HIS intention..I never pass unless I can see it's clear for myself. The only other signalling I trust is from professional drivers, because car drivers do the stupidest of things sometimes )

Of course, you do what works for you. The proof is in the pudding,- we're still alive to talk about it:)

I also have a couple of back-up spots (100W each), aimed to get the most attention from behind. Gotta be careful that you don't blind someone when you want them to watch out for you, though...

As you said, they are quite effective against drivers driving too close behind you with their highbeams on

And most shops will install them for free if you've purchased them there, in my experience. I've never had to pay installation charges for anything unless I bought it elsewhere (which I try never to do unless it's something special that wasn't available locally at the time, like my dvd player, which I bought online). But I do often tip the installer 50 baht or so.

Anyway discussions with my old visa 'agent' today made it clear I can get another 1 year B visa in Panang for 5000 baht and he will even run a tour including hotel and a company that can sponsor me plus handle all paperwork for another 5k... So 10k baht and a 2 day penang run and I will be doing another year on a B (with 90 day Ranong runs) !!

Plus I look more like mid 20's than 50 

If you are 50, why not just get a retirement visa? 800,000 in a bank account, and over 50 are the only requirements...

Don't you just love those old, beaten up pickups with no lights, driven at 15Kmph by a buffalo with a farmer or two in the back.

One of these?

http://asiarecipe.com/larry/motor.html

I'm not going to defend the drivers here.  I'm still trying to figure out what the rules of the road are  .  One thing that I have noticed is that I haven't seen as many accidents here as I did back in California.  Yes, I know that Auto accidents are one of the major causes of death in Thailand, but I rarely seem to see any of them!

'Might is Right' is the rule of the road here. I think it makes complete sense from a safety issue, and it fits in naturally with how Thai society operates...

Motorcycles have better visibility, acceleration, maneuverability, braking, than cars or trucks, plus a bike will likely take the brunt of any collision with a larger vehicle...

So, a bike should kriengjai a larger vehicle...

Cars have better visibility, acceleration, maneuverability, braking than larger trucks, plus a car will likely take the brunt of any collision with a larger vehicle...

So, a car should krienjai a truck or other larger vehicle...

This system mostly works. The only time I deviate from it is when I come across a farang driving...I make them the 'cawkong Thanon' (road owner) every time, because they are the ones I'm mostly afraid of. The tourists tend to drive by their perceived Right of Law, while Thais have a whole different idea...I find farangs to be generally MUCH more dangerous than your average Thai driver, mostly because they are clueless as to what's going on, or they are unwilling to drive the Thai Way, making them more unpredictable than your typical Thai driver.

I also appreciate the relative lack of horn honking and road rage compared to Calif, but I have seen this become more and more of a problem with Thai drivers, too. Lots more Rambos on the road now...

And, I have never witnessed an accident here in 20 years other than normal fender benders. With Thailand having one of the higher accident rates in the world according to some stats, this does seem strange that I haven't seen more of these accidents...But, I'm not complaining, mind you!

I installed the same 140db air horn that the mad buses have and a compressor for it in my car along with a switch for selecting the normal horn (in city traffic) and the 140db thing (for highway traffic). Very efficient...

Bus/Truck air horns do not use compressors. The use a storage tank of compressed air that is usually topped off at fuel stops. This is maybe the reason why trucks and busses only use their air horns when they are really needed...They don't want to be left without air reserve when needed.

The smaller air horns with electric compressor are a good idea for safety, in my experience. I have them on my car, too. Not nearly as loud as a bus, but still effective in getting everyone's attention focused on you for a moment....Of course, once they realize you are a car, your position goes way down on the scale of 'Might is Right'..

(500,000+ plus k's driving in Thailand without an accident)

One more thing..  As for setting targets, I think a very significant thing the authorities could do would be to crack down on young children selling flowers in tourist areas late at night. There seem to be an especially large number of children involved compared to (hilltribe) poor people selling flowers in other parts of the city.

These kids are obviously in a vulnerable position, not to mention that no 5-12 year old kid should be walking the streets every night until 2am.. 

Getting the authorities to act is of course a bit of a pipe dream, but one thing that we could do would be to discourage tourists from buying stuff from these kids.. It sounds harsh, but the more tourists buy, the more money the people make who send them out on to the streets, so the more kids they will send..    We could make an effort to get this word out through web sites, local news media (the tourist magazines) and tour operators.    There may be better lines of action besides 'just not buy anything' so I'm open to better suggestions.

Actually I really wish there was a better line of action, because most of the kids really are great people...  I've seen that rather differently in Bangkok and Pattaya!!  Here's a pic of two flower selling kids, a typical sight around the Night Bazar, restaurants and bars in the main tourist areas: Picture

Cheers,

Chanchao

Yes, a tough issue for many of us...

I, for one, buy flowers from these sellers whenever I can. Admittedly, I am out of most of the 'nightime' loop, but most of the sellers I come in contact with are Akka women, often coordinating with each other at the Helping Hand on Loi Kroh. A couple of them go down to Worarot to buy from the wholesalers, then they hit the streets. There are also 'wholesalers' parked in a couple of spots, ready to resupply- with a couple of baht added for the convenience

These are not gangsters. These are women trying to support their families with honest work. I've heard these stories for years about 'flower gangs', but I've never seen anything like that here. BKK, yes, but not in Chiang Mai. Maybe they do exist, but it certainly isn't a majority of the sellers, I believe.

What I have seen over the years are a number of instances where a parent drags a kid around to night spots to sell while waiting outside on a bike to take them to the next joint, often very late at night. This I don't like, and when I can see the mom, I will sometimes ask the obvious question about why mom doesn't let her kid sleep, and mom get out there herself to do the selling...These have always been Thai women, in my experience, The Akka moms will drag their kids around at times, too. Mostly babies that I see. And only for 2 or 3 regular Akka sellers that I've seen. And they ARE their own kids in every instance I've seen. Not that I doubt there could be 'baby trading' going on, too, but no signs of anything nefarious, and I've talked with these woman for at least the last couple of years.

I hate the part about the kids being out late in the night among all the drunks and air pollution from passing cars....

But, the business of selling flowers is legitimate in my eyes. The sellers I know are honest people, offering a nice product at a nice price. No way would I support that being taken away from them, especially with the limited options for making money available to most of them.

I would like to see the authorities deal with the kid issues, but I doubt they will ever do anything....TiT.

I remember reading a story about some American pressure groups putting pressure on American companies that do business in India with factories that use child labour (under 16, by American standards). Their goal was to force the factory owners to get rid of all their 'child' labour (under 16), by putting financial pressure ob the factories through boycotts of their products.

The end result are people losing the jobs that support their families. Sure, I would rather see children in school, but the reality is that often this child is supporting a larger family, and their working is critical to the family's immediate survival...

Then these groups come in with their western-based ideals and demands to get rid of all 'child labour', No other options presented, like training programs or government help for these kids now unable to work to support their family.

Granted, there are issues of abuse that should be dealt with harshly by the authorities, but often these extreme measures as demanded by western groups hurt mostly the victims, rather than solving any problems.

If kids are your priority, then focus on helping them, not simply victimizing them more...

And even if there was solid research, you have to wonder how accurate any research is; after all you can't count prostitutes the same way you count the number of chickens in the country: the definition of what constitutes a chicken is pretty much beyond doubt. Not so for all the different ways in which money or valueables can flow one way and sexual relations in the opposite direction.

Good point.

Noticing Sisaket is a bit far for a quick drop in! I shall pay 'em a visit and get details for you.

When you have the details could you post them here for all of us.

I am interested in Cheddar as the Makro stuff is a bit too mild.

What about the Extra Sharp New Zealand Cheddar? If that's what you want, I just saw some today at Kasem Store.

Sorry but that is absolutely nonsense John B Good. I don't know what people your respected friend associates herself with.  I went to Regina Coeli school for 10 years and upon graduation one girl in a class of 160 wasn't a virgin (we were 15, now we are 30).  Most of my friends remained so until marriage, many others were involved with boyfriends, a few were kept, but considering we are 160 middle class women, I would say less than 5% of these girls have gone on in life to do something we all consider a bit dodgy - mostly mia noy, only one a prostitute.

To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance.  Its farang men with this attitude that so annoys us Thais.  Sure, many are, but the numbers you cite are just way out of porportion.  Believe it or not, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move.  Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle.  The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

A very well educated and well informed Thai teacher who I am friend's with told me that 'absolutely, at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking in their spare time'. That I believe

Why does it seem like common sense is being tossed out the window with some of you guys? Which head are some of you guys using to think up this stuff?

How is this teacher going to know ABSULUTELY that at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking???

A totally ridiculous statement. The ONLY way this could possibly make sense would be if your teacher friend is the one using the 40%+ students himself...This is obviously bullshit, as is the statement from your teacher friend

Look, a very well educated and well informed THAI teacher who has been involved with a number of universities in Chiang Mai for nearly 10 years on a full time basis estimates that 40% are hooking. So maybe its 30%. Maybe its 50%. I found this a bit surprising myself until I asked my Thai friends what they thought and they guessed in the 50% range.

Why do you find this so hard to believe? If it was said of CMU or Mahidol, okay, its obviously bullshit, but Payap and a number of other uni's across the whole country are a different story. Are you in denial? Why do I get the feeling that you either teach at Payap or have a GF who attends?

Look, I taught full time in Thai schools for 16 years, mostly in universities, including CMU and Payap. I am no more an authority on percentages of student prostitutes than your friend... As I said, there is ONLY one way for your friend to know ABSOLUTELY.

Some bullshit is easy to see if your eyes are open....And just because a Thai person has an opinion doesn't mean they have any more of a clue than you. Tons of bullshit flies around among people who don't a clue, but still have an opinion

Oh, apologies for the crack about thinking with your penis. I'm sure it didn't help you to see things my way, and I would like you to 'get it'...

I agree that no one can know absolutely. (By the way, the teacher in question is a woman.) However, when it comes to the opinion of a farang who, admittedly has many years of teaching experience and a Thai who also has many years of teaching experience, I will put all my money on the Thai. Especially when I consider the fact that all my Thai friends who went through the local uni's within the past few years all put the estimate in the 50% range.

No matter how many years you stay here. No matter how well you perfect that accent and no matter how Thai you think you have become, you are always on the outside and the Thais will always have a more accurate guage as to what is going on. But that's just my opinion. P1P close the thread so I can have final say

I agree that no one can know absolutely

Now you change your mind. Good. You got my point

By the way, this is not some kind of credibility contest between me and any Thai teacher. My years of Thai experience have nothing to do with my message to you.

If you are going to rely on the opinions of Thais, or anyone else, and present them as facts here, don't be surprised when someone steps up to point out the fact that, hey, you don't have one bit of fact to back even one word of anything you've said. Your opinion, based on hearsay, personal predjudices, personal fanatasies....whatever. No personal knowledge or experience of any sort, it seems. Just reported gossip.

Or maybe I've missed something?