Several

...and I hope y'all have a good vassa.

Kamma is very complex, like the butterfly effect in chaos theory. Some talented individuals can perceive the kammic 'equation' that lead up to where the individual is now and even predict future events to a degree, as in the post about the plane crash. To use a game of cards as an analogy, Kamma is the cards you are dealt. Some people can count cards and appear to have a miraculous power. Your hand may seem good or bad depending on a dualistic view (debilitating disease, uber rich family, good looks etc), but are in fact neither. The way you play is up to you (confident, bluffing, throwing in your hand) and when the cards are returned to the deck this determines the next round of Kamma. Or so it seems.

Its is cause and effect and it is the intention that counts. Associated emotion gives 'colour' to the resulting Kamma. Buddha suffered headaches because in a previous life he liked to watch his father, a fisherman, kill fish by smashing their heads against the deck of the boat. This vicarious enjoyment produced a kammic debt. Being enlightened he didn't concern himself with the suffering and did nothing to prevent it as he had to pay. So yes I'm saying intent is the important factor.

Kama [Pali, Sanskrit]: meaning = Sexual desire, sensuality.

Karma [Pali, Sanskrit]: meaning = Action or doing.

Karma in Buddhism normally associated with Vipaka.

Karma - Vipaka

Action - Consequence or Fruits of Action.

Kamma is Pali, Karma is Sanskrit according to Pali English Dictionary.

@ Leolibby, you weren't reading those elfin love poems to your dog too were you?

Karma is not like "every action equals opposite and equal reaction." Because emotions are not so clear cut.. anger is neither positive or negative.. anger could motivate one to correct an injustice. Causing pain can have positive effects.. like if you disciplin a child. Being hurt in a relationship can cause you to learn valuable lessons. Showing too much affection to a dog might make the dog not obey you at all (happened to me).

Rebirth is both moment to moment and life to life. In the absence of a soul or immortal element I don't think you can say Kamma is 'recorded' anywhere, but that each subsequent moment or life is the result of the quality of previous actions.

do you mean future events are influenced by our knowlege of our past actions? if so I like that better because it takes into account intention.. like there is a difference between if you kill an a an animal just to see it in pain, and if you kill it to feed your family. If just the physical act of killing mattered, there would have to be a spirital medium to record the event.. like a soul or an akashic record.

Its is cause and effect and it is the intention that counts. Associated emotion gives 'colour' to the resulting Kamma. Buddha suffered headaches because in a previous life he liked to watch his father, a fisherman, kill fish by smashing their heads against the deck of the boat. This vicarious enjoyment produced a kammic debt. Being enlightened he didn't concern himself with the suffering and did nothing to prevent it as he had to pay. So yes I'm saying intent is the important factor.

Everything is subject to arising, maintaining then decay. If Kamma can be created then it will exhaust itself. Kamma is exhausted quicker through effort. However an Arahant does not produce good or bad Kamma. Therefore its creation has an emotional factor. The other post about Dependant Origination is correct and that process also works in reverse.

One thing I wonder is if there is Gestalt or group Kamma. I've been told not, but I do suspect the common actions of any size group (being comprised of individuals) will produce a common Kamma.

Rebirth is both moment to moment and life to life. In the absence of a soul or immortal element I don't think you can say Kamma is 'recorded' anywhere, but that each subsequent moment or life is the result of the quality of previous actions. Nagasena in the Questions of Milinda compares it to lighting one candle from another. The new flame is a result of the old, but it is not the old flame itself.

Rationalisation only serves explaination. Buddhism is more about practice and experience. You could rationalise how to ride a bike but no amount of explaination will give you the ability. Whether Kamma exists or not is argued in search of a definitive explaination, but it seems irrelevant. Selfish uncaring behaviour will most likely result in some form of suffering regardless. Loving kindness will serve you well no matter what happens. Events occur in life that lie outside Kamma too. A good person drowns in a flood, a bad one wins the lottery. Two things will always exist in this universe for humans. The unknown and the unknowable. Sometimes there just isn't a satisfactory explaination and there never will be.

Depends what team it supported. I mean, who's gonna help a Man United fan?

There again I might flip it over anyway. I mean, it'll never outrun the arrow like that.

But then if I do it might end up as nothing more than an exhibit in the emperors palace although that would give Chinese sages opportunity for comparisons.

Though it might be too heavy to lift depending on whether it has a world on its back.

I blame the rabbit.

We do not go on pintabat either as the local people don't have much money here.

I would agree that Bindhabaht can be not practiced in a country such as Malaysia....because the population is Moslem ...or England...because they are Christian...the monks wouldn't receive anything and sometimes might be in physical danger.

But in a Buddhist country there is no excuse for not going out. Even if the people are poor...the point is to give them the opportunity to make merit. Once the Buddha accepted a handful of earth from a poor child with nothing to give.

Also it is important that monks are seen out amongst the people....One reason Busdhism disappeared from India is because they stopped going on alms-round...sitting waiting in their temples for offerings...distancing themselves from the lay community...so when Brahminism was making a comeback in popularity the Buddhists felt alone and unsupported.

Its the way this monastery is run. I've only ever been on pintabat once since becoming a monk. I have been on Tudong though, we still do that even though most monasterys don't. Not a quick stroll down a rose-petal strewn Bankok soi either. Its hard but good. The locals see us working in the fields all day long. Bus loads of school kids too. I've even seen cars stop and back up for a better look. So we're actually more visible than if we appeared once in early morning. Plus people can come and talk to us as its much less formal.

I was in Malaysia for a bit and the Muslims are fine. I'd go out to the shop or internet cafe and never even got so much as a dark look. In fact two Muslim ladies once gave me a lift. I guess they were being naughty, but curiosity got the better of them. I believe the Koran advises showing respect to clergy of any religion. Georgetown in Penang has quite a few temples and centers from a range of Buddhist sects.

Ah Lokesh, I am not suggesting that all men should be monks, nor would they choose to. Its not an easy life. Neither does being monk preclude productiveness. We have rice fields and a rubber tree plantation here. More and more monasteries are becoming at least partly self-reliant. We do not go on pintabat either as the local people don't have much money here.

Its generally easy to love your family, but a greater love is that of all. I do not see east vs west, but east and west. Simply different approaches to simmilar situations. I agree though that some discussions can get out of hand.

Rational understanding is not enough to fathom the meaning of Dhamma and the world is an attention-hungry place. Monks and monasteries are necessary to provide the right enviroment for this search. Medieval christian ideals treated most people as peasants and kept them uneducated and pregnant. Accounting your works to god was a major message. That underlying philisophy continues today, and it is still only of major benefit to a tiny section of society. So if monks are escaping reality its because it is a construct that has more in common with 'the matrix' than any real world system.

Demented, then beheaded! Duality in action! En garde!

And do you mean the earth is round? It's not.. it is elliptoid.. I commend you for this brilliant analogy though... the flat/round earth analogy had defeated me many times. I salute you Sir.

Thanks Brother. I think I meant going round, as in spinning. I like the earth being 'pear shaped'.

I'd say that Gotama seeking enlightenment is a frank admission of imperfection. Some Buddhists do treat him like a god but I'm far more impressed by the man.

You must have been quite a soldier to get into devotional yoga whilst in active service. Did your officers know, or were you a secret practitioner?

Well it would if he'd run off for lesser reasons, but surely his being the Buddha opened the way for many to avoid rebirth. His concern became all sentient beings. Not just family or country or race. When his wife caught up with him she asked to become a nun and their son a monk. So for us average joes, yes its immoral. But because of his teachings we have a shot at the highest realisation. I guess he rebelled against culture and religion and duty, I reckon he did the right thing.

But he did leave in the dark of the night and sneaked out of the palace gates without even bidding adieu to his family members. He didn't consider it important to intimate his own family of his plans to leave, even if we consider it to be a spur-of the moment decision/choice.

Even if he was convinced that his arguements to leave in search for enlightenment would fall on deaf ears, he still should have chosen to atleast inform them with details of his plan rather than leaving them wondering in misery caused by sudden shock about his whereabouts.

Can we consider it as an act of courage & rebellion or should we label it an act of cowardice? His quest for enlightenment as he embarked on this long journey began in this manner; he couldn't even muster enough courage to face his own family? How could he preach the masses when he didn't fulfill his most basic duties & responsibilities?

He left his father too along with his wife & kids, something which surely would have been considered a reprehensible & heartless act at that time as even today's Indian society (though the values are changing fast but we must remember that we are referring to Asian societies here), the love, respect & obligation towards one's parents is same/exceeds that for one's wife and kids among many.

The fact that he left his wife alone with their kid (please note that it was 'their' kid & not 'her' kid alone) for a holy/greater cause (& yes, not for another woman) does lessen the intensity of the wrong deed by only a small measure.

His wife joined him later as his disciple reflects on the magnanimity of her character than on Buddha's greatness & she emerges as a true heroine in my eyes who forgave her husband & embraced him despite his choice to sneak away uninformed leaving her alone with their son.

Moreover, I believe that performing ones' daily duties sincerely & with honesty is one of the greatest prayers and one doesn't need to renounce one's wordly duties/tasks to be devoted to God.

So, if every guy turned into monk in order to achieve absolute wisdom as per the Buddhist philosophy, how would the society progress and the world would come to a halt.

Buddha should have advocated a practical way of life wherein one can balance the two because performing the wordly duties is also of utmost significance.

Roaming around with a begging bowl and expecting to live a life on the mercy of others for something as two basic meals a day, no matter how difficult it may be does strip an individual of self-esteem & dignity. One should be able to 'earn' his own bread & butter because a life of penace & meditation alone isn't enough.

What kind of detachment is this, if every person started following it, then I wonder what would become of this world.

And, there's an event when Buddha says that there is no father/mother/any relation, then why did his followers introduce the concept of filial piety to Buddhism just to make it more appealing to the Asian societies that valued it and spread it's influence. They should have allowed it to remain true to it's original form, the way it was intended to be.

You also say society cannot advance, but how has it advanced? Ipods? Better wespons ? TV? Medical science took a great leap forward once Hitler got his hands on some jews. 99% of your effort at work goes to increasing the wealth of those who already have money. There are almost no industries not geared towards luxury. I fail to see what advancement you allude to. If you read enough history you'll see we're just chasing our tails, not working towards some grand design.

Its not about devotion to god its about seeking realisation and liberation from rebirth.

What if no men became monks? Are you going to live in a world of industry and science? Neither display much wisdom. Industry is killing the only planet we live on. Science is knowledgeable but has no insight. A smart man can build a nuclear weapon, but a wise man would not. Without the possibility of higher things in this universe we have no more reason to be here than bacteria.

Filial piety is good, to a point. It is also often abused. Nothing should be followed blindly. Relatives are human and sometimes therefore wrong. The eldest son can be a moron. The father abuses his children. The mother poisons out of 'love'. Rare cases? Or global.

You have some good points, well put. I maintain my position, it is samsara that is avoiding reality even in this day and age when our actions could push our world into oblivion.

Its a question of what you believe reality to be. The western ideal, if you're not working 9-5 you're wasting your life, is only only view. American Indians who saw palefaces all arise simultaneously, dress ridiculously, rush off to 'work' for a set amount of hours etc thought we were all insane.

Many people live in the delusion they have a firm grasp of 'reality'. Just as 500 years ago all westerners 'knew' the earth was flat. I garantee you we all still cling to a flat earth theory, we just don't realise what it is.

Buddha encouraged people to verify what he said for themselves and not accept the dogma of any age simply because you are told 'thats the way it is.' Nobody has a monopoly on reality.

But wouldn't it have been cowardice to stay? Not to go against the social obligations and just do as you're told? King Bimbasara had gone to great lengths to keep Gotama in the palace and if he'd been asked politely whether the heir to the throne could leave he'd have found himself under armed guard. He agonised over leaving his wife and child, but the reality of suffering is clinging. After he had left a life of luxury for abject poverty he did not avoid his family. It wasn't like he was running off with the circus. He was seeking something. Giving alms to those in the homeless life makes merit. It is better to give than to recieve. Living day to day with the uncertainty of getting enough food is quite brave.

Time for breakfast. More soon...

Well it would if he'd run off for lesser reasons, but surely his being the Buddha opened the way for many to avoid rebirth. His concern became all sentient beings. Not just family or country or race. When his wife caught up with him she asked to become a nun and their son a monk. So for us average joes, yes its immoral. But because of his teachings we have a shot at the highest realisation. I guess he rebelled against culture and religion and duty, I reckon he did the right thing.

Hey, I'm not here to argue my friend. I'm sorry about your condition. I know that the reality of deayh makes you look a little harder at the world. Another thing that samsara spends too much time ignoring. I've drowned twice in my life and had various other near scrapes with death, so like you I know its coming.

Personally I think Gotama knew about old age and sickness, but perhaps not death. Either way, when he found out that the 'clock was ticking' he went and sought more. The story has been dramatised and I'm willing to bet his education played a larger role in his decision than his chauffer.

The point of it is that pain and suffering are caused by delusion and desire. These are properties of the 'real' world. They still exist in the Sangha, but it gives more opportunity to go beyond.

All the best Leolibby. I like your posts. Mostly.

Lol. Not prozac. But just about everything else I could lay my hands on. Escaping reality. I became a monk to face it, without chemical aid.

@Leolibby; "did he have a low iq?"

Are you serious? Are you comparing discovering the path to enlightenment with realising santa isn't real? Could you be a bit more respectful please.

Doesn't Thailand have no copyright laws? I could, as usual, be wrong. If a third party copies media and puts it up for free download it should be perfectly legal. You didn't steal it because you haven't broken the law in Thailand. Or do we have to consider the laws of all countries? I know there's disagreement about this in the Sangha. Personally I'm not sure. I consider it on a case by case basis. Plus I watch the odd DVD one of our looksits brings over. I don't own them, but am I breaking this precept when I watch them?

Back on topic, I believe that the opposite is true. To remain in the world outside the search for truth, samsara, is to live in a kind of complexified game. Money is a ridiculous concept yet it now defines the value of everything. Governments and business are run by greedy clowns who want nothing more than more money and power. War is waged against invisible enemies for paper thin reasons. Sex dominates everything from advertising, the internet and all media to peoples minds and by extension defines many lives. Drugs and alcohol, legal or not, provide a vast percentage of the population with the respite they need from the constant pressure to fulfil some imaginary role in this absurd mechanism. Not many years ago, when it all got too much, the doctor would advise you go on holiday and do nothing. The cure for the stress it causes was to ignore it. Now they give you prozac. Hooray. "one great big festering neon distraction." Aenima. Tool.

No, I think to follow the Buddhist path is to take the bull by the horns and seek the truth in the only place you'll ever find it. Yourself.

Is it likely that Gautama knew any argument he could put to his family would be ignored? Also leaving wife and child though harsh is leaving the strongest of attachments behind. He had no problem ordaining Rahula later in life (to his fathers disappointment, losing another heir to the robes). The chance of liberation was perhaps stronger than anything samsara could offer.

If the story is true, he had the advantage of having the Buddha as his teacher, a very powerful advantage.

Absolutely. What extraordinary Kamma, to be required to perform such a horrific task in collecting 1000 right index fingers, and meeting and being liberated by The Buddha in the same life. Milarepa from Tibet also killed through sorcery (at his mothers request), and was liberated by Marpa. He was required to perform many arduous tasks to exhaust his Kamma nearly dying in the process. But both these men were killing on the orders of others who they felt they must obey. They then found Nibbana on the advice of greater superiors, realising the Buddhist message was the end to their suffering. I'm seeing a message of hope for even the worst of humankind. Nibbana is stronger than murder. Regardless how low we fall, the highest is never completely unattainable.

Yeah, same for Devas and Asuras in Buddhism. Any being in the Lokas, demon, ghost, angel, human or animal will exhaust whatever Kamma put them there and be reborn elsewhere. If thats the right way of putting it.

Angulimara is an example of what I was on about before. He killed around 1000 people to repay a debt, and he was about to do in his mum when Buddha intervened. Angulimara, if I recall, attained Nibbana.

Jain monks have a serious take on ahimsa but they can also be proactive about it. There are a couple of stories about them assasinating kings who were planning to wage war, the rationale being its better to whack one king than allow thousands to die. Not sure about the fate of the monks as Jains have a slightly different view of Karma.

Does this mean that killing itself is not a hinderance to enlightenment (Angulimaras case, killing his mum would have been too much), and is killing sometimes justified (food, tyrannical despots)?

Morality is also Buddhist. Sila. Right thought, speech, action, livelihood are heavily based on morality. Also seem to recall Buddha saying he was not a dietician. Living on alms is enough without putting pressure on Dana givers for specific things. One caveat was that the meat was not killed specifically for monks. As far as harming plants the reason, I am told, was that monks were helping themselves to farmers goods. Mangoes and such. Same with vassa, instituted to stop monks walking through rice paddies just after planting and ruining crops. Some vinaya is just practical rather than deeply moral.