Several

@ Vinnie. Heh. Not what Buddha predicted. I think you underestimate how deeply Buddhisn is rooted in Thai culture. The evangelical forms of Christianity are bordering on fanatical which is a bit much for your average sabai Thai. More likely the Evangelical sects will be overrun by Islam. True that the protestant reformation was necessary to overcome papal dominion, but Buddhism does not order crusades and auto da fe for heretics. Nor does it burn books that disagree with Dhamma. So there is far less reason to rebel. Perhaps it is needed, but it will not happen.

Many years ago I went to meditation sessions in Bangkok and then Nakhon Sritamerat.

There was a farang monk whose name I sadly cannot recall who told me something that has stayed with me.

Statues of Buddah are like the are because they show him in the normal act of sitting in the fashion of the time. He stated he sometimes wished that there more statues from real life..even sitting on a toilet as it is not how you sit that is relevant to how you meditate.

Customs and practices based on them are just that.

Well, its a very old fashion. Seals from the Indus Valley civilisation date back 3 to 5 thousand years showing individuals seated this way. It seems to have been in constant use up to the present day. Statues of Buddha are based on Greek sculptures and always show a beautiful and youthful appearance, probably coming from Indian connections with Bactria (Afghanistan) which was under Greek rule after Alexander. It would be more realistic to see some imagery of Buddha as an old man as much of his teaching came in later life finally ending when he was 80. His reasoning behind the pose seems to be mostly that once comfortable with it the position is the most stable for long periods of meditation. But you are right, it is comfort and what feels natural that counts.

And all that without ince referring to 'I'!

dam_n.

@Bosse; good man. Glad to see you back. Sadly I think I'm a fair way from where you are. In fact I'm a fair way from where anyone is. But keep posting. It always provokes thinking about what you're really doing when you hear the opinion of another.

@Para, as usual I agree. My first monastery expected all monks to appear at 5 o'clock to go and meditate with the yogis at the hall. Felt it was a bit like being put in an exhibit and I was more aware of not walking into or disturbing others than focused on my meditation subject. Of course if I kept to my Kuti I was therefore 'sleeping'. Stalemate.

Lol. Yes, another of the great unmentionables. I have other questions that get frowned on too. Ah well. I don't mind the posture, it gives relief to my aching knees to change around from half lotus fter a while, I just can't find any precedent for it. I thought it might be swastika pose but no. Mysteries of Thai Buddhism.

Something I'd like to know is why do Thai Monks sit papiyap with one leg out to the side rather than padmasana. Also the monks here believe Buddha wore a Sankati, but I'm not so sure. Can anybody 'enlighten' me?

Seriously though our chants are in very old Thai with Pali words sprinkled throughout. I have an 'english' version which the others call karaoke, but I find that a bit odd as they admit not understanding it either. Like a westerner chanting Chaucer or Bede with the odd word in Aramaic.

The final chant starts; "Kan-ta yang sou-kang soh tin-yang..."

I am told it will be of absolutely no use anywhere else in Thailand as we don't even chant in the same way as the tiny percentage of Wats who do use these chants. Mai bpen rai.

He is one of my influences, yes. Along with Demis Russos and Snoop Dogg.

And I want little bells now. I'm going to speak to the abbot. Bells are cool.

Absolutely Para. I was of the same opinion as Bosse when I first arrived in Thailand. So I'm guessing many farangs feel the way you do. Remember a lot of people read these posts but never comment. And I for one found value in your input.

Several.You mentioned in a post,that you "do intend to quit (again)" Smoking,that is.Bear with me,when I will tell you how I managed to do it after thousands of failed attemt.Perhaps it also will shed some light over my previous posts.My father got fed up beeing beaten and left home 13 year old.Started work in a factory.When he was 35,he was in an accident and lost his right leg above the knee.Couple of years later,his young wife,my mother,died of cancer,and he was left with 3 small children,which he singelhanded cared for.All the time,and all his life,he never missed a day in his workplace and he never,ever complained.He made it all seem so easy...Now to my point; I asked him once,how he could manage all this and he told me,that already when he left his home,he started to train his thoughts.Sometimes he tried to keep the same thought for a long time,sometimes the opposite,to keep his brain "emty",with no thoughts at all.So,everytime some bad,unwellcome thoughts entered his brain,he just dismissed them;didn`t let them take root. With this in mind,one day,when again I wanted to quit smoking,I used this method,and to my amazement,it worked! It is now 35 years ago,and I never,even once,missed it (the smoking)I am not saying,that this is for everybody,but this method,of controlling your thoughts,has helped me in many difficult situations.Perhaps this story can inspire somebody.

Thank you for that Bosse. I was wondering about the history behind your comments. Your father had a hard life indeed. And I always admire a fighter. In relationship to life in a Wat it can be difficult to quit. Well meaning people bring you a carton of cigarettes as Tawaai (I gave the last one away but the other monks just gave me cigarettes in return later.), Thai laugh openly at you for trying (though they laugh at everything, as you probably know), and my teacher says 'don't bother trying, it's too hard!' (but he says that about most things). So the environment isn't too helpful. But I gave up a lot of other nastier 'indulgences' and I have heard someone say something very simmilar to you before. I can quiet my mind, I have had plenty of practice, so I promise you and my lungs I will quit soon. ish.

Coming from a literary background of Buddhism as most westerners do, the reality of Thai Sassana is a shock. Many Thai men from totally different backgrounds ordain for various lengths of time. I have met majors and colonels, police, secret service, gangsters, drug dealers, managers and layabouts. Some are serious practitioners and some are just 'doing their time' as all Thai men are expected to ordain at some point in their life. So you will see a colourful variety of behaviour in the Sangha.

I actually feel that the west could gain from this part of Thai culture. Its better than military service or prison. Young men are exposed to discpline, calm problem solving and the wisdom of my elder brothers who have seen hundreds of monks pass through these gates and who have the experience to guide them.

So please, forgive the behaviour of the short-time Monks. It takes a long time to get Samsara out of your system even in robes. The long term bad apples usually get weeded out in the end and they will have to pay (Kammic debt collection) for their behaviour in time and future lives.

I believe your intentions are good and ultimately that can only be of benefit.

Sadhu.

So, the head monk and the Maha Thera were out today meaning I got to lead the chanting for the first time. Was actually asked to do so by one of the younger monks. Great joy. Though I'm not a big fan of chanting it is expected of us. I look at it to being simmilar to lighthouse keeping. Not knowing if there is a ship out there we keep the light on regardless. We beam merit rather than photons, but you catch my drift.

Number 2 monk carefully selects the smallest incense stick he can find and holds the lighter about halfway down it grinning. They are all grinning. I shrug and try to explain that size is no guarantee of longevity, but they see it is small and it is good and number two assumes I mean light it at the end like big monks do.

We begin.

I fumble through the Satya prayer. Nobody laughs. Excellent. I start chants out of order and unknown. Confused looks and frantic page flicking. Excellent. Now they are mindful. At what is usually the second last chant I observe the little incense stick. Halfway down. Blast.

I nod to number two and he also is dismayed. Plus its his fault. We continue. Neung chua toop, not keung brothers. Another twenty minutes of leg numbing, knee aching ting tong farang random chant selections and our duties are complete and I am happy.

But they learned. New chants. Expect the unexpected. You cannot judge the incense by its length. Never ask Phra Farang to lead the chanting.

Excellent.

Lol, very true. Where did that money go? But I did avoid owning a car so at least avoided financing petrochemicals. I do intend to quit (again). The way I see it is smoking is bad but not all smokers are, just as Buddhism is good but alas not all Buddhists.

Also agree with Camerata. The body functional rather than the body beautiful. My body isn't a temple, but it is in one.

"The world is full of ignorence,wars....." Yes,really!! Especially ignorence... You are not likly to be able to stop any wars,but you should be able to quit your own smoking. That is,if you are not ignorent but aware of all the bad consequenses,for you self and,in a broader meaning,for the society at large.I do not try to make anybody quit;by all means,puff away till your lungs or heart give in! The reason why laymen give cigarettes to monks,is of course,that they know,that monks want it.Is it really to much to expect,that monks can,by their own good will,try to be a good example to others,especially the young,and lay off smoking...?I accept that others have other opinions on this subject,but for me it is clear:a monk who can`t control his mind enough to live without the "stimuli" of tobac,is in my eyes not a monk.Next to one of our fields do we have a wat.The monks have TV,mobils and smoke.What else they might do I do not know,and do not care about either,but one can not help thinking;why do these people live in a wat,mascerading as monks,if they want to live an ordinary life?! Could it be,that it is a nice existence with few worries? Actually I know of some,that were a lazy bunch and did not want to do something useful;they became monks..Let me add,that I am certain,that most of monks a good,honest people,whith an important roll.That is exactly why I am sad to see,when the few spoil the good image of Buddhismen!

Well my friend, get ordained and make a difference. I've sat in a ward full of old dying men trying to cheer them. We got knee deep in flood water helping those in trouble and donated a large quantity of food too. I teach english to poor locals for free. I've looked after the puppies people dump on us and watched them die. Given hope and support to the mentally ill and the desperate. Patrolled the Wat grounds at two in the morning trying to catch the yoms who steal our electric cable and copper piping for yaba and wondering how to deal with armed men non-violently in a language I don't speak. And the chances that anybody saw me and though 'Oh look, Phra Farang is smoking, we'd better start too!' are infinitessimally slim. Whatever damage I have caused is ameliorated by the massive amounts of tax I have paid. The life of this farang as a Monk is no masquerade. Thai Buddhism is what it is, and sometimes that means bloody and muddy, misunderstood and misjudged, powerless and alone. So give it a try. Or not. We all die regardless. Pax.

Absolutely right Rockyy, the detrimental effect of my smoking is very noticeable during Anapanasati, though not throughout the rest of the day. Luckily I do not get cravings whilst sitting and I'm guessing thats due to concentration. Like on long bus rides, if I cannot have one I don't even think about it. Though I am not yet up for hours of sitting at a time. Bad knees. At least I know when the rain is coming.

Camerata is also right on, though I would add that a strong flexible physique also brings a certain confidence and the activity involved in maintaining that state prevents self pitying.

All this chanting and meditation,and many (most?) of them can`t even control their minds enough to stop smoking....Or is it,that they are ignorent of the dangers of smoking and/or the bad exampel they set for young people..?

I am curious as to how many Farrang Monks have you seen smoking?

Personally I consider smoking an intoxication which breaks Patimokkha rules........

The only time I've seen monks smoking was back when I lived in the States, and they were Thai. I think it's just standard here, I've seen what looked like children smoking before, as well as some sneaky novices as well. Have yet to see any non-Thai monks smoke, though - that'd be a new one for me.

About smoking, and chewing betel nut/mahk - I see eye to eye with you, Para. I asked about it once and was told it is considered 'medicine.' I stopped all further inquiry when I heard that. I was listening to one of Ajahn Panya's talks (the one and only, of the late Luang Dta Maha Bowa), and he was explaining how when Luang Dta chewed, it was more of a stimulant to aid in the talk - my conviction in both him and Luang Dta Maha Bowa is very high, and that was enough for me. Maybe not for others, though. Then again, Luang Dta was not the ordinary monk by any means, and neither was Ajaahn Panya (by the way, Ajaahn Panya never took to it - it destroyed his mouth, and he stopped smoking, though the story I don't remember quite well.)

In America it has a somewhat of a bad connotation, smoking (based on my experiences), but I notice in Thailand, it's considered socially acceptable for males (I've only seen three ladies smoking, and the older ladies chewing betel nut in Isaan). So I'm not surprised it carries over into robes for some. It's a very grey area here, indeed.

When I was staying at another temple in Muang Loei, of another not-so-ordinary monk, the abbot there chewed betel nut as well.

Looking back on it now, I think it really depends on the person and their state of mind.

Er, well, I smoke. And chew betel nut, though not often. My teacher said don't bother trying to quit, though I do agree that it doesn't look good. An old lady up the road where we stayed on Tudong keeps inviting me over for some 'maak'. The teacher says 'chew maak, smoke buri, read tipitaka.'

It makes me laugh when people get so vehement about the evils of smoking. The world is full of war, greed and ignorance which really need stopping and yet we are reviled for such a little thing. Ah well.

I'm pretty sure the Buddha would have said no to betel, nicotine and coffee too (another sin of mine), so I'll get around to quitting. I gave up everything else so why not. But I'm not going to fret over it as I feel it isn't a big deal. Plus teacher says its ok, which is rare for him. Everything else is verboten.

I know I'll cop a beating over this, c'est la vie. Fire away. Just let me have my last cigarette...

On a side note, Several, Para, or any other monks on this forum: if you need a book of chants following the 'correctly transcribed' Thai Pali (lol, that one gave me a headache). Let me know. And I can send you a copy of a few books I have. I spend time revising chant books for the temples I've stayed at in English, Thai, and am currently working on typing a manual for reading Mon Pali in Thai, as well as transcribing the Patimokkha in Mon (as it's extremely rare to find these days, EXTREMELY lol). I have to make a run to my temple in Nongkhai tomorrow but will be back soon, hopefully (Para, you know what I mean, lol).

Ah thank you brother, but we have some unusual chanting here. I'm told almost no other monasteries do them ('Kang ta yang sou khang' is one and 'Parana sap sa pan yoo' is another.), and we chant them in a way created by a previous master which nobody outside our Sala ever does. I could use a transcription of the Sabittio chant done at ordinations. We have 'the away team' come from another monastery to chant and make up numbers but I always feel awkward that I can't join in. Tried recording it in my phone, but it doesn't help much. Ah well.

I found the reality of Thai Buddhism a bit of a shock. All my previous experience was book learnin' as I believe is the case with most farangs, so to see it in action was not what I expected. The first temples I went to were with my girlfriend at the time. She would always go straight for the fortune telling sticks. I though it was the equivalent of a catholic church with a condom machine.

I read Phra Farang since becoming a monk and found it funny and simmilar to my circumstance. Except my robes don't fall off. So I keep an open mind, half and half as Para said, practice and giving the yoms what they require. Still can't quite get along with the chanting though. I know the Thais expect it but I'm wishing I had one of those chanting machines that Camerata mentioned in the technology forum. I could dummy it up to look like me and hope the head monk didn't notice anything but improvement.

So I was a bit resistant to the culture at first, but it is their way and they have been at it a very long time and they are good enough to let me in so the least I can do is reserve my judgment and be grateful for the opportunity to practice here.

My brother is a Vajrayana practitioner. His knowledge is great, his understanding is... discernable.

I have heard it said by some Buddhists that the universe had no beginning and has always been and will always be because time does not really exist either. Though I'm personally not sure about that is this position based on something in scripture or in a lack of something, ie Buddha not describing a creation event?

Also, does science give us true understanding? Is their discovery of 'indivisible' things simply an inability of math to cope with a problem as Heisenberg Uncertainty shows? For example if a scientist could mathematically explain Nibbana would that enable an individual to achieve it?

The physicist Richard Feynman proposed in his Case by Histories that the results of any experiment are only results under certain circumstances and not comprehensive. No experiment has ever been conducted away from the influence of Sol for example. So to be certain of results every experiment would need to be conducted under every concieveable circumstance. So in truth science can be sure of its facts but not certain of them.

So did the Buddha propose things he had deduced or had direct experience of? The Zen monk Takuan Soho described those who use reason alone as 'men of half baked knowledge'.

Finally if there is no 'I' then there is no 'observer' and yet the effect still takes place by observation. If I am not but the universe is then it is the universe observing itself regardless of whether I am here or not. Trees make noises when they fall and the cat in the box died of something other than curiosity. Who said the observer needed to be a human?

(apologies in advance if I have offended anyone.)

Seem to recall Buddha saying most women are more devout practitioners than men, or something to that effect. Allowing the Bhikkuni order to run out and keeping very strict rules about contact with the opposite sex may have been due to mens weakness as much as womens. Did Buddha ever say women were inferior? Sure I'll find out soon.

In the 1920's a high level yogi (who's name escapes me) decided to teach yoga to women for the first time in its history and against public opinion. But as he predicted yoga has exploded into a global phenomenon with upward of 95% of practitioners being women. I have always had female yoga teachers and sometimes been the only male in class. This agrees with what Buddha said about women being focused more on the spiritual than men in general.

The priblem most likely boils down to Sila (morality).

And I have managed to post that on the wrong page. Sorry. (see tecnology in Buddhism forum for why I am a ludite.)

Should have been in Sexism in Buddhism forum, not unmindfulness in posting state.

I'll shut up now.

Seem to recall Buddha saying most women are more devout practitioners than men, or something to that effect. Allowing the Bhikkuni order to run out and keeping very strict rules about contact with the opposite sex may have been due to mens weakness as much as womens. Did Buddha ever say women were inferior? Sure I'll find out soon.

In the 1920's a high level yogi (who's name escapes me) decided to teach yoga to women for the first time in its history and against public opinion. But as he predicted yoga has exploded into a global phenomenon with upward of 95% of practitioners being women. I have always had female yoga teachers and sometimes been the only male in class. This agrees with what Buddha said about women being focused more on the spiritual than men in general.

The priblem most likely boils down to Sila (morality).

In the Buddhas time there were no images of him, I believe. The wheel and the footprint were the original iconography. The images we see now are based on Greek sculpure. Also I am not so sure what Buddhas opinion would hve been. More concerned with Dhamma than cult of personaltiy?

In Australia there is a bumper sticker that says 'I have the body of a god. Unfortunately its Buddha.' Its funny, but it is disrespectful (part of Aussie culture. Nevermind) and innacurate. I doubt Buddha was portly on one meal a day and frequent walks.

As long as those within the Sasana are respectful its ok. The non-religious will say whatever they please. As Camerata pointed out we must observe right speech, others can choose.

So I don't think its such a bad thing provided we respond to disrespect with Dhamma and not get dragged into argument.

Although you turned your back on status and perks (company car), interactions revealing your position would still result in an elevated pecking order.

Well, of course you can't avoid the fact that people will treat you as a phuyai if you are a phuyai. The point is not to get attached to it. Interactions that reveal my age, education and nationality may also result in an automatically elevated respect from others, but you just stay aware of it and don't get attached.

The involvement of the "Reptilian Brain" in the assessment of pecking order is very interesting.

Would that work both ways?

That is, ones feeling of inferiority, as well as anothers feeling of superiority.

Yes. See Sagan's remarks about primates. Every animal is dominant over and submissive to some others, and they presumably enjoy playing both roles. Unlike humans!

Many humans most definitely enjoy this state. Prisons and business are full of those who submit to superiors and dominate subordinates. The BDSM community would not exist without it. Military organisations would be useless without it. If I've understood you correctly that is.

If I find myself in a position where I am being treated as a superior I avoid taking advantage of it unless I think my actions could be beneficial. If someone tries to dominate me I quickly discourage that mentality or simply avoid them.

It may be naieve of me, in a world of ingrained hierarchical psyche, but I believe we are all equal in reality and that social status is a very strong illusion that we cannot let go of because it acts as a kind of 'glue' that keeps the structure of society upright.

Like Rocky I spend two months at a retreat. Despite all best efforts by yogis and residents samsara still leaked in. Like Camerata I've always been a loner and couldn't really give a fig about social standing. Death equalises all from kings to paupers. Gotama realised this and abandoned a position of royalty to become a Buddha.

In a psychology course we were told that up to 80% of a mans personality is made up from his occupation. Two men meeting for the first time will ask 'so what do you do for a living' within the first 3 or 4 questions. It becomes so ingrained that it is almost impossible to overcome even when inside a retreat as the OP discovered. It is a major hinderance. Defining oneself as a loner is also a pitfall as it necessarily requires the ego to define itself as seperate from the whole and therefore 'I'.

But wouldn't society be chaotic without percieved structure? All the little cogs and rods and other parts of the machine working away in their places to give us all the impression that humanity is 'going somewhere?'

Then the day comes for some when the realisation that there must be something more dawns, and the way to finding it is to leave the social rank behind. And then to leave the you behind.

An observer without something to observe. To observation stripped of subject all things must be equal. All kings are Ozymandias.

It can be done.

Much (maybe all) of physics is based on the big bang theory as being the point of creation and understanding the unfolding thereof will give greater knowledge of the nature of the universe. But isn't the creation one of the questions that should not be asked by monks? Or am I mistaken? Is it not a problem to hear a scientific explaination as long as we don't ponder it too long? What do you think.