PaPiPuPePo

Betty...

I think you should look up the word "hyperbole"

I thought you said you could read, but you can't read a short username correctly.

I think we should start up a fund for JTJ and JDIA to go on a madcap Koh Tao adventure together. They'd obviously be happy to share a hotel room so that will keep costs down. And since a stipulation of the free trip is that they walk around spouting off like the do on this forum, it shouldn't be long before one of them winds up one of KTs numerous scary-looking guys with their condescending self-righteous BS, leading no doubt to the other having the room to himself for the rest of the trip.

How Conspiracy Theories Work ... http://people.howstuffworks.com/conspiracy-theory.htm

Why Rational People Buy Into Conspiracy Theories ... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/why-rational-people-buy-into-conspiracy-theories.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Conspiracy Theorists Arent Really Skeptics .... http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/11/conspiracy_theory_psychology_people_who_claim_to_know_the_truth_about_jfk.html

Why People Believe in Conspiracy Theories .... http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories/

Why conspiracy theories persist... http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/04/21/cass-sunstein-explains-why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories

Fine, we can read all about this the next time there's a fake terrorist attack. Or maybe they will give insight into your conspiratorial beliefs about the case.

You may think labelling people in derogatory ways and dismissing their well-founded beliefs (as you only have beliefs since no one was there) about this case will work since there are indeed some gullible people here who will listen to your BS, but fortunately you're wrong.

Your views are about to get tossed on the ash-heap of history, not that that will discourage you.

Everybody forgets that DNA evidence only proves they are connected to the the victim it does not prove they have commited the crime

Their semen was in one of the victims.

John you sure rely on thoughts contained within the box. How do you KNOW their semen was in one of the victims? Have you tested it yourself?

Good to see a number of people bringing this up.

I've been following this closely and have seen no actual report stating what JTJ says like it's fact.

JTJ, <deleted> and go away.

Everybody forgets that DNA evidence only proves they are connected to the the victim it does not prove they have commited the crime

Their semen was in one of the victims.

Show the link to this info, I've never seen it.

Otherwise it's as shameful of you to spread unverified info of this kind.

Show us the link.

We want the truth!!

Until then... BOYCOT KOH TAO!

You're absolutely right everyone should boycott Thailand until the truth is revealed. That should go for all the expats ... time they stopped moaning about things and took action by leaving.

I am quite happy with my life in Thailand. I plan on visiting KT on my next long break from work to visit friends.

You are welcome to stay away though.

Don´t forget to eat a pancake

and have a good laugh with Mon at suree beach

Yeah JDIA, go to Koh Tao, and if you get ripped off (tip: be sure to rent a motorbike and give them your passport) you can get all legalistic and self-righteous about it like here. See if you end up JDOA.

I find it interesting that some writers believe that having the British police here will be a waste of time. I would imagine these officers are the best of the best under strict orders from the PM, and if you think that a bunch of Thai police can hinder their technical investigation I think you been in Thailand to long. For one thing the new Thai PM is clever enough the best in years will open any means to properly solve this case. It's 2014 and if Thailand is to be taken seriouly on a world stage then they will learn and not hinden, after Billions of $$$ are at stake. The world is watching especially the ASEAN partners, it time Thailand wakes up, there's more to making a society and economy grow then just screwing tourist. Stop importing cheap China products, education the people and create jobs. India declared yesterday to stop the influx of China products which is causing lost of jobs.

So, I think you'll find a few more police with all of the decorations and ribbions on their shirt fired. Every cop in Thailand has a paratrooper jump pin on their chest, bullshit. Where do they buy these things. Teachers dressing like military officers, who dresses these people.

The point being International attention to this case and false sense of being special here in Thailand with vanish, its just a country with many many problems and the outside is coming, like it or not.

Meanwhile, on Planet Earth...................

Do you have anything to contribute other than these one-liner dismissals of others' posts? Maybe something based on experience, fact, that kind of thing?

True tidbit: I had a break-in at the 2nd story of my Thai house. Cops arrived. I showed them muddy boot prints on a white outside wall - where the thief had likely climbed up an adjoining tree. Police grinned and waved it away as inconsequential. Inspector Clouseaus, they aren't.

didn't you mean to say "ARE"?

You're right. I forgot: Clouseau was a bumbler. How about this:

"Inspector Poirots they aren't"

Poirot better to be sure; but wasn't the thing about Clouseau that he got also his man in the end? Speaking of books/movies, not the cartoon!

StephenTerry:

I agree with the sentiments, completely. However, it is noticeable that up until 23rd Sept the RTP were on track to resolve this investigation - suspects

had been identified. But on the following day a complete turnaround occurred - the so-called suspects weren't anymore, and the ensuing alleged 'cover-up' by a new team of RTP has spread right through this case up until the present day. And the problem with any falsification, if it has occurred, is that it can never be perfect, logically. In other words, by its very nature, there can never be a perfect cover-up.

I still believe this case will be brought to trial, with the debatable 'assurances' from the prosecutors given to the suspects family, see following:

The parents of the two suspects later submitted a letter to Thiravut Phramhun, deputy public prosecutor attached to Ko Samui, asking for justice for their sons.

In return, Mr Thiravut reportedly told them that fairness and justice would be given to every party.

I re-read the news articles linked to from here, from around that time, and saw again how the ones right before and after the "turnaround" are full of completely contradictory information, as well as some suspiciously vaguely worded sentences glossing over the sudden changes. If I hadn't already had alarms bells about the investigation already that would have sent them off, as it did it really got my attention.

[Now I'm having trouble with the quotes.]

I really feel so sorry for those poor people.

If there is any justice in this world, those two boys wiil soon be able to travel home!

Good job of social media to keep this case alive. Keep posting until those two kids are safely back in Myanmar!!

If there is any justice in this world we will see soon enough.

I'm against the way Thai police conducted this investigation.

I'm against Thai police torturing the suspects.

I'm against the lack of legal representation these people had.

But I still don't know if they are the real murderers.

I hope the British police will shed some light on this.

But even on that I have my doubts.

Till I'm convinced that they are, or they are not the real murderers they haven't got my sympathy.

Good that the social media is keeping it alive so at some point we will have the real truth.

But please don't presume they are innocent just because the social media says so.

Fair enough!

But it would be very easy for the police to silence their loudest critics on social media.

Simply by DNA-testing the two people most people think are the real culprits, do it publicly, and let it be followed from swab to testresult by a neutral agency. Don't leave it out of sight for a second, we don't want "mistakes" to happen!

If those tests free the two guys, I am willing to reconsider, but not before!!

The RTP may more often than not lamentable. This case - inept, local police out of their depth, more concern on the tourist buck etc etc then whiffs of cover ups and corruption.

I don't know if these 2 are guilty or not. That remains to be proven and as such they should be presumed innocent. I do know appearances are deceptive and have been lied to by some equally looking innocent young Asians who were thieving recently.

However, for any police force anywhere in the world to bow to "social media critics" and change procedure on 1 case would be a disaster. Every criminal will then adopt this tactic, social media lobbyists will be out in force and we are back to trial by the media, this time social rather than the news barons.

Yes it would be an easy way out for the police. Let the British test, or an independent agency. But, that would mean tacit acceptance that the RTP cannot be trusted. Do you think any police force would allow that? All previous cases would then be subject to appeal.

There are too many people who, based on facebook and other sites, have decided they know more than the police, have appointed themselves the judge and not only reached a verdict on these 2 but are willing to state who the guilty are. And all without leaving their keyboards. Frightening.

100,000s of thousands of people smell a rat, or a pack of them. There are so many problems with the case against these guys it boggles the mind, enough that the UK has made the extraordinary step it has. The RTP have a very strong rep. for corruption and if you'd actually ever been to KT you'd know some things about the place that add to the problems with the case.

You say that the RTP shouldn't accept any interference, but not because of the merits of their case, merely as a matter of form. That and much of the rest of your post is what I myself find frightening.

 

""Anesthesic doctor said before undergoing general anesthesia, she was asked to inform the doctor about all other medication that she has taken. In this case, a doctor said she might not inform."

And

"Authorities speculate the deceased woman ate a meal prior to receiving anaesthetic, which caused complications resulting in her death. Her body has been submitted for forensic examination."

Appears to be a concerted effort taking place to blame the victim in this case.

Seems that the medical profession is the same the world over.

Deny, deny, deny

Blame, blame, blame

Yes it appears the article is using hearsay to point at the victim's actions or lack of communication as the cause; where could this info have come from pre-autopsy if not the clinic, hardly an unbiased source. Disturbing lack of journalistic standards.

This case has really brought out some Thai bashing.

It is NOT the Thai people as a nation who are responsible, it is the 0.1% (elite) who control the country and its finances.

Corruption is endemic but the recipients of the proceeds are the elite and their soldiers, NOT the general public, who are

just as likely to have to pay as any farang.

Please, dont think all Thai people are bad, in my many years here I have met very few who are not kind, generous, warm and inviting to foreigners.

As I wrote above I think it's in part that no small percentage of the people interacting with falang in Thailand have either poor character to start, i.e. got involved in tourism to exploit tourist's ignorance, or have become spoiled one way or the other. So whether it's tourists or even more long-time semi-residents who still stay in touristed areas, both get a skewed idea of how most Thais are; add the language barrier to that.

So while I think there are problems endemic to Thailand at play in this case, there would be problems endemic to any country in a similarly-flawed case. Of course, these kind of things are happening with too much regularity, it would appear, in Thailand. I believe the current PM means well and is earnest about cleaning up the corrupted parts of the gov't/police, but he's probably got an uphill battle ahead.

PaPiPuPePo, on 21 Oct 2014 - 07:42, said:

DJVillain, on 21 Oct 2014 - 00:54, said:

Eirene, on 20 Oct 2014 - 21:18, said:

My apologies if anyone finds this offensive....I am sick to death regarding this saving face BS...how about justice for the two young people who's parents can no longer gaze upon theirs!!

Don't find it offensive at all...

Unfortunately, those in positions of power see David, Hannah and their families as 'just Farang'...

And as far as the powers at be are concerned, a farang doesn't have a face and if it did, it would never be worth saving over that of a Thai...

I haven't brought this up yet but the crime scene specifically Hannah looks like a statement was being made by killing her so savagely. And the killer basically destroyed her face, maybe because she'd made him lose his.

Thank you PaPiPuPePo. This is exactly what I wanted to add....did not know how to put it without sounding insensitive. I have thought this from the onset...this was definitely personal...done in rage...not lust as the authourities keep implying. Whoever it was that believed she had slighted him in some way is used to having his own way,has a very very short fuse, may have done this before and will likely do this again unless put down.

Call me PaPi :-).

Put down, I like the sound of that. I'd be happy to assist.

Have the British the capability of intercepting Thai mobile calls? if so GCHQ will be on overtime

The RTP could have been using mobile phone info from day one to see who was where (though there may not be enough towers on KT to triangulate effectively, distance from one considering you have sea on one side and steep terrain on the other could be helpful); maybe they did, but it's never come up and you think if they had it to bolster their case they'd have leaked it by now.

BTW, anyone interested can find Arnold Schopenhauer's "The Art of Being Right" online and get a better understanding of the rhetorical tricks employed by people (or their unintentional use of same) to derail sincere debate and/or confuse the issue. He wrote it ironically and interestingly you still see people recommending it, thinking Schopenhauer was advocating rather than exposing these rhetorical tricks. I saw a business-oriented website extoll it recently, hilarious.

Schopenhauer was a compassionate man in addition to being a great mind and his desire for truth stemmed from that; I see parallels here.

on twitter now

@atomicalandy

Zaw Linn/Win Zaw Tun signed statement just submitted to prosecutor states they didn't kill or rape victims and were not at the crime scene.

Important: Koh Tao case accused migrants Zaw Linn/Win Zaw Tun retract confessions after 5 hours of questioning by lawyers at Samui prison.

And more http://twitter/com/Atomicalandy

JD should be along any moment now to make a one-line dismissal of the importance of this retraction.

In the real world, however, this is huge and bolsters greatly the position of those….what was JD's term (though he has no stance!) oh yes "hair-brained conspiracy theorists."

And granted, if they'd done it they may have just wised up and realised they can work the system (probably shouldn't feed such iffy ammo to the shills, but…..). But all things considered thus far, Occam's razor's edge points at their retraction being legit.

I'd like to see what the survey questions were , answers you get from a survey can be very much predicated by the questions and how they are positioned

Example

Do you like to take vacation in exotic tropical locations .... most will answer YES

In choosing a vacation location how important is personal safety for you and your family.... most will answer VERY

Are you aware of the recent attack and murder of the two English backpackers at Khao Tao Thailand ... most will answer YES

How likely is it that this and the questionable handling of this horrific case would affect your decision about taking vacation in Thailand.... most will answer DEFINITELY/ PROBABLY

Do you like to take vacation in exotic tropical locations... most will answer YES

In choosing a vacation location is the Kingdom of Thailand on your list of possible spots .. most will answer YES/ or PROBABLY

Given that the political protests there have stopped and Thailand is still one of the top tourist destinations in the world.. would you have any concerns in choosing Thailand ....... most will answer NOT REALLY/ NO /SOME WILL MENTION THE MURDERS

Given the recent Kao Tao situation in which the Burmese perpetrators have been apprehended by the Thai police, does this give you confidence to visit Thailand ......some will say / whats kao tao / don't know/ yes/ no / crimes happen everywhere sort of thing

Certainly in the former example you have a far higher chance of getting a stronger negative influence score than the latter

Surveys are very rarely balanced in their construction and quite often the lean or angle is determined by the desired result

Smells of concern trolling. That could go either way and you acknowledge that implicitly, which is classic poor reasoning or trolling. Your post adds no info, only sows confusion. Was that your goal?

Have the Nomsad family been charged with illigally employing the Burmese accused as yet? I thought employing illegal immigrants was a criminal offence in Thailand.

This is irrelevant , 1000s of migrant workers are without permits on this island and other tourist destinations in Thailand . Then you need to charge any restaurant or bar owner.

No illegals, no underclass to exploit for economic gain and have around to fill prison cells or suck up lethal injections. Why would anyone want to mess with that perfect situation? Not at all specific to Thailand, btw.

David was not killed by blows from the blunt end of a hoe or the blunt end of anything else.

Please educate yourself on the details of this case before you rush in and try to sound important. There are many sources that clearly indicate the wounds - and blunt trauma is not what killed him. (no matter what the boys say or what the BIB say.)

Nut Kyaw Thaung, a representative of the Myanmar Association in Thailand, who attended the interview with the defendants, said:

There's some more nonsense for you straight from the horses mouth.“They said they bashed the victims two or three times each with the blunt end of a hoe, but not with the sharp end. They said they did it because they were drunk but did not intend to murder the couple.”

Weren't sitting alone then were they?

As tired as I am about responding to misinfo/disinfo as you have here, it's probably necessary to keep the story from being deliberately confused or twisted.

So anybody think this could be more like the truth?

A massage from Koh Tao Burmese community

First of all, Thanks a million to CSI LA and fellow Thai friends for standing up for the Justice.

Some Burmese people in Koh Tao whispered that the murder was not happened on the beach, it was happened in the guest house where British couple were staying.

According to them, Nomsod and his fellow gangsters have harassed and molested the British girl in AC Bar and got fight with the girl, when the British girl has gone back to the guest house after fight, they followed and killed the boyfriend, raped the girl and killed her too. Altogether 5 people, Nomsod and 4 Thai Gangsters (one of them was rumored as a Thai policeman) who worked for his father were involved in the murder. After the murder, they carried the bodies to the beach which is 50 meters away from the guest house, staged as a couple were having sex on the beach and killed on the beach.

Two Burmese boys accused were also workers of one of Nomsod's father's businesses on the island, and they were playing a guitar on the beach when Nomsod and his gangsters carrying bodies, and Burmese workers were also asked to helped them carry the bodies too. Two Burmese have to do it because they scared of Nomsod and his gang and his father too. Which mean their DNA can be found on the bodies too. Which make them a perfect scapegoats.

The whole Koh Tao community knows about what really happened that night but everybody were scared of Nomsod's family and their gangsters and also the police thus nobody dare to speak out, Koh Tao Burmese were saying its not a secret that Nomsod family is making millions of bath for Thai police every month from many different illegal businesses on the island, and this case too, there was also a rumor that every Thai policeman involved in this case were already bribed handsomely by the Nomsod family.

The whole point of a message is to inform the Scotland Yard Police to focus on Nomsad and his thugs, AC Bar, Guest House, Sperm DNA inside the British Girl's womb and find a match. Not to trust on the 'murdered on the beach' fairy tale and tempered evidences and CCTVs on the whole island that are under the Nomsod's family influence.

Parts of this account is consistent with a version that I heard from Interpol - but substitute "gangsters" for "bodyguards".

Where did you hear this version? If it's not public, can you share a summary?

And do you mean substitute "bodyguards" for "gangsters"? I.e., it was his BGs?

and regardless, of course, violence of any sort, to say nothing of what was done, is an appropriate response.

Yikes, I meant to say, of course, that violence is NOT an appropriate response. Goes without saying, but an unfortunate typo…..

You and the poster above don't know the DNA matches. The witnesses have been unreliable. The Burmese-and-cop show of the reenactment was a farce, with a photo even showing how the Burmese had to be coached to get the facts right. The confessions were said to have been made under duress and there is mountains of evidence over the years that this is a regular occurrence, it could be called common knowledge thus confessions in MANY countries including the USA and Thailand are very often suspect. Never mind that confessions are traded for leniency and intimidation regarding punishment is also used.

Do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who are suspicious of the conclusions about this case are daft? Conspiracy theorists?

I notice the ratio of doubters to true believers on this forum is huge, though the post count thanks to the trolls and possible shills is nearly even! But

the momentum is on the side of getting to the real bottom of this so carry on with your unfounded certainties but if justice is eventually served you'll be in for a surprise.

"Do you think the hundreds of thousands of people who are suspicious of the conclusions about this case are daft? Conspiracy theorists?"

Quite possibly.

If you think that the fact that sheer numbers of people who have expressed an opinion matter then you also have to consider the billions who have not expressed their opinion and are not suspicious, daft or conspiracy theorists. Outnumbered.

No, because all amongst the 100,000 can be assumed to know about the case, while only a tiny percentage of the rest of humanity can be assumed to know about it. But thanks for wasting a couple minutes of my time.

"Tourism police, tour operators and community leaders on Koh Tao yesterday held a meeting over what to do to boost tourist safety and provide better services.

The proposals included encouraging tourists to dress properly when not swimming or sunbathing, ask them not to commit intimate acts in public, as well as regulate taxi services and publishing do's and don'ts about Thai |culture on leaflets and in other media."

Is Thailand new Saudi arabia??

Koh Tao 2015

Anybody who visits Thailand might reasonably be expected to have done a bit of basic research on the country where they will be staying. Every guide book contains sensible advice, such as how to dress and conduct oneself in public. I see nothing wrong with the tourist authority and police publicly reinforcing these messages in the interests of locals and foreigners alike.

The poster's comparison with Saudi Arabia is ludicrous, as anyone even vaguely acquainted with with the Gulf state will know. Walking Saudi streets half naked, as many tourists routinely do in Thailand, and committing "intimate acts" in public can easily lead to arrest, incarceration and/or deportation. Not permitting people to drink themselves stupid to the point where they commit such offences is one way the Saudis and other nations of Islam curb such offensive behavior by tourists. Maybe Thailand has something to learn here, in respect of its own population as well as visitors from overseas.

Not just Muslim countries, but many others insist on reasonable standards of dress and behavior and have on occasion display intolerance to foreigners who flout their cultures and conventions. Young acquaintances of mine who went to Crete were manhandled by the police and pushed on to a plane home for canoodling on a public beach. The story made indignant headlines in the UK. A few days later an English woman sunbathing nude on an isolated cove along the same beach had to flee for her life from a passing local shepherd who had spotted her and been unable to control himself. There's a moral there somewhere.

Thailand is remarkably tolerant, in my view, about the frequently outrageous and offensive behavior of Western visitors, who would do well to conform to the old maxim, "When in Rome do as the Romans do". To do otherwise in a country where violent behavior and sexual assault are commonplace is to court not mere disapproval, but also danger - and possibly disaster.

I too have thought that the Thai's are extremely tolerant, and have myself been pretty disgusted countless times by the behaviour of foreigners in Thailand as well as elsewhere in Asia. I think though that some of this tolerance is merely self-enforced due to the income factor, but that in turn sets up inner conflict in many Thai people (those who deal with farang) which can cause explosive behaviour.

I don't think comparing Thailand to other countries in this regard is fair: East is East and West is West, if nothing else. Visitors to Thailand should try much harder to not offend.

That said, to make any connection between this and the crime at hand is ridiculous as there's not only no evidence either of the victims was behaving "improperly," they bother appeared to not be amongst the flagrant violators of Thai mores, and regardless, of course, violence of any sort, to say nothing of what was done, is an appropriate response.