rwdrwdrwd

Kitsune

A ridiculous comment which adds no value to the discussion.

A poor attempt to justify the illegal workers who exist on tourist visas which clearly state that working is prohibited.

Normal activities of daily living are not "work" in a legal sense!

The Thai legal definition simply says that 'working is working'.

Your interpretation of what 'work' is, and what is '"work" in a legal sense', is entirely opinion based.

• The elite visa which costs 500,000 thb for 5 years.
• You shouldn't have a problem getting another tourist visa from your home country or another country neighbouring Thailand.
• You won't be refused entry if holding a TR.
• Set up a company so you can have a non 'B' visa and WP.
• There are companies that will, for a fee, employ you and organise a work permit. (sorry I don't know much about them other than they are expensive)

Unfortunately Thailand doesn't want people your age living and working here illegally.

You misunderstand!

The "digital nomads" live in 5* hotels , use the "gratis" Wi FI and pay tax on their huge incomes!

They also contribute to the economy of the local mobile noodle stall !

Actually there are quite some digital nomads that make far more as the old guys, there are also many old guys that live of a meager pension contributing almost nothing to the country.

But as with all groups there are those who make only a bit of money and those that are successful.

The older guys don't like the younger crowd as they don't have to pay for the girls.

As usual complete tripe

Only the last part.. it is probably true that the old guys don't have to pay for the old girls.

The remained of robblok's post is however entirely true. There are 'digital nomads' that make good money, I know a number. By 'good' i mean 100k US NET (and it goes a lot higher). Plenty of retirees on a fraction of that.

Certain members of staff in Thai consulates are unfriendly, certain countries especially (e.g. Singapore).

Laos is usually the friendliest, I'm surprised you were told that there. Or was it at the border on the way back in?

Anyway I'd just chalk it up to that member of staff having a bad day, there's no official limit yet to back to back tourist visas one can obtain from Laos.

Here's all the Thaivisa moderators confirming that - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788273-is-there-any-limit-on-back-to-back-tourist-visas/

After 4 or so in a row they ask for proof of funds to show you're not working in the country at some cash in hand job, if you just show proof of funds coming in from abroad you're fine.

Full details on that - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/715011-red-stamp-in-vientiane-advice-needed/

Or you can 'break the chain' of back to back visas by going to Savannakhet, in your position I'd do that. Get a visa from the Thai consulate in your home country first though, you should have zero issues.

Renewing your passport for a fresh one also helps, all those one page tourist visa stickers fill it up fast anyway.

You get a number of months of 'time left' added on if it's not expired yet, e.g. 9 months for UK passports.

Anyway yeah I'd ignore that one off hand comment from one member of staff, get a triple entry visa in my home country, fly in, then go for double entries in Savannakhet after that point.

If there was a defined 'abuse' point for tourist visas it hasn't been written into law yet, I don't feel guilty about staying here on tourist visas out of some imagined notion of 'abuse' - it that existed why isn't it clearly stated on every consulate website. Some have stayed for over a decade on tourist visas.

There's also the Thailand Elite program which has stood the test of time and is a good option if you're sure you'll be here 5 years, you'll recoup most of the costs by not needing to do border runs.

With regards to working you can work online, nothing in the Alien Labor act says it's illegal to freelance remotely online, have a blog, or anything like that. It's not taking jobs away from Thais. That's what I do, I'm also in my 20s and have been here 6 years, I know many other digital nomads in their 20-30s who live here long term too.

There's never been an arrest for working online in Thailand, or anywhere in the world, the above scaremongering about being arrested leaves out the fact it was work with a physical presence (tour guide, bartender etc.) Just don't do that and it's fine.

How incorrect can you be ? YOU are in Thailand and YOU are working, be it remotely or not - that is illegal without the correct visa and work permit.

Tell the online teachers that were arrested and deported from Chaing Mai that there have never been any arrests !

They were not arrested for 'working online', they were arrested in an ad hoc office set up by an business that was advertising jobs for teachers in Thailand, that was paying said teachers in baht, in Thailand.

Where did you get the information that they were deported anyway, because that's not what I heard..

I know this does not answer your question but why live in Thailand at your age? Sure, there are many good things about living here but it's a backwater. For 99% of people it's a place to retire not a place to build a career. Few companies will value the work you do here believing (not incorrectly) the standard and skill set are low. You will be trashing any chance you have and for a career and getting paid poorly for it. Stay in your home country or move to the USA (if you are in IT) and build your career, skills and income. You can always visit Thailand and plan for an early retirement. Don't waste your golden earning years in Thailand ... you will regret it later.

He's not talking about working for a company here, but about earning income online from outside of Thailand.

Not sure what the OP does, but for a skilled senior software engineer working remotely, 100k US is easy, and it's quite feasible to double that if you're an extremely strong dev. It can also be entirely tax free, depending on the tax rules of your country of citizenship and the location of your clients. And you can still get negotiate equity deals, again tax free.

For young individuals that can earn income online, and that are highly skilled, it is quite possible for them to be MUCH better off by living in Thailand, to enjoy a far greater standard of living throughout their earning years, and to have the ability to retire to a great self-funded tax free pension at an early age.

I do not know how the Thai authorities judge if working on-line is "working in Thailand" or not. But I think it could be compared with someone say for example working out something in his mind whilst being in Thailand, for example a formula or equation or invention, would that then be considered "working in Thailand"? I think not.

Or is it just the simple fact that generating an income while in Thailand and not paying taxes for that income that is the definition? which makes a lot of sense in which case the online work is formally "working in Thailand".

The Thai definition of working is 'working is working' - make of that what you will.

Regardless of whether or not earning income online would be construed as within that definition, tax is not related to it - under Thai tax law, foreign income is only taxable if it is remitted to Thailand in the year it is earned, and the individual in question is tax resident for that year (> 180 days in Thailand in that year). Anybody, Thai or not, can earn billions of dollars outside of Thailand and bring it in tax free, so long as they can wait until the next tax year to do so.

I moved here around 10 years ago in my mid twenties, like yourself, and derive income from outside of Thailand.

These are your options in terms of long term visa:

1 - Thai Elite

2 - Get married (probably best to have someone you actually want to get married to) - Non O

3 - Use one of the umbrella companies, like iglu.in.th - Non B

4 - Set up a Thai business, you don't need to run everything through it, just 50k or so - Non B

5 - Take up a course and actually attend - Non Imm ED

6 - Use one of the new multiple tourist visas (probably not going to work long term though)

Thai Elite is probably the simplest of all, and imo would work out the cheapest over 5 years, when you factor in the time cost of dealing with the bureaucracy for all of the others.

All except 3 or 4 would leave open the possibility of being construed by the relevant authorities to be 'working in Thailand' without a permit, though as jspil points out, you would be the first person to be prosecuted for doing so that I am aware of, either in Thailand or abroad.

There is also an investment visa option, but I can't offer you info on that, I stick to the rule 'only bring in to Thailand what you need in Thailand'.

Dont you need 4 employees for a WP therefore costing more than 50k?

Yeah that's why i said 'or so' - though I believe many people operating Thai companies don't actually use employees services, but simply cover the tax as if they were - not sure of the legality of this.

Also need to factor in accounting fees and personal income tax - still don't see it going above 60k a month.

Please read one of the many other topics on the question, this is the most recent http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/854461-work-online-for-an-overseas-company/

No, I think his purpose of visit is to visit his girlfriend. He is not physically entering Thailand as a precondition to earning income.

When I work on a plane, it does not mean that I am on the plane for the purpose of work.

In terms of the 'occupation' aspect of the form, that form is not issued everywhere, and even in the places it does it brings us back to the question of sending an email and whether that counts as 'engaging in an occupation' or not. Can easily be interpreted to mean offering services in Thailand.

It sounds to me like his 'purpose of visit' is to spend time with his girlfriend.

I think that's a bit of a stretch, one could equally interpret it as 'undecided' - the list doesn't include 'sending a business email' and I can't get on board with the idea that this activity would be considered work, so am loathe to get on board with the opinion that anything else business related not mentioned on this list must by default require a WP.

The named activities are also very highly focused around conferences, seminars, lectures, business negotiations and trade based activity, which is a big money spinner - I suspect that this list is more about removing confusion that was previously hindering the organisation of such events and Thai/Non Thai business than anything else.

Given the OP stated catagorically he intends working in Thailand can we state catagorically he needs a WP ?

But the thing is there is clarity, there is a list of occupations a foreigner cant do under any circumstances and there is a recently published list of circumstances where a WP is not needed..... couple that with the standing rules that one needs a work permit to work in Thailand which further states where one is paid or even if one gets paid has no bearing on the defintion of work

It seems to me the intent is pretty clear in my opinion of course

The other thing that needs to be addressed about not being able to get a WP for on line work ....yes one could if one set up a Thai limited company, and in fact know someone who has done exactly this and the core on line business has nothing to do with Thailand big difference between "cant" and "wont "

I honestly don't think we can categorically state that, no - we have no guarantee that what the OP personally considers to be 'work' would also be considered 'work' for the purpose of Thai legislation by a judge. It might be, but it might not.

I'm not really sure where you're going with the occupation list comment, it doesn't really cover anything pertaining to remote work that I can see - http://www.thailawonline.com/en/others/labour-law/forbidden-occupations-for-foreigners-jobs.html - nor does the 'list of circumstances where a WP is not needed' cover every other possible activity. I don't think we can infer that any other activity is allowed or disallowed just because it does not appear on either list.

In regard the the WP for online income - yes by virtue of a Thai Ltd co and a lot of bureaucracy everyone 'can' get a WP, the question that remains is whether they 'need' to. I don't think anyone here can accurately determine the answer to that.

In regard to forums being 'about opinion', the reason I am arguing here because it seems that you are stating as FACT (and not as opinion) that the op would be illegal and I am questioning your ability to do so with the available information:

Simple. It's illegal.

• You cannot work in Thailand without a work permit and you cannot get a work permit for the work you describe

The OP did not describe the activity. They could be purely sending emails all day (hence the above questions), we do not know.

Given the extremely badly worded legal definition of 'work' in Thai legislation, only a judge can decide whether the OPs activity constitutes 'work' under that legislation or not, and the only true answer that the OP can be given is "It depends if a judge considers what you are doing to be 'work' under Thai law".

I understand that you are playing the wannabe/actual lawyer but this is a forum of people being asked for advice and information. Not for legal certainty. I assume that most people ask questions in the hope that the respondents have actual real life experience to pass on. Which many of us do.

You're absolutely right that my advice is opinion and that I failed to properly express that, but you fail to acknowledge the fact that I also said "If you truly want the answer then don't listen to anything posted here and go along to your local Labour Office.", which IMO indicates sufficiently that my advice was opinion.

No he didn't describe the activity but ​IMO someone employed to send emails all day is working regardless of whether some smart lawyer thinks he can contest the definition of work. You're are also right that a judge would have the final say, but that's of no help to the OP whatsoever. Work in fear of being caught and thrown in jail by a judge, or go and talk to the DOL who would be the ones putting you in front of the judge. I know which route I'd take. And have taken!

My interpretation of the OP was that they were seeking legal certainty, not opinion.

In terms of emails, I don't personally see how emailing all day is working yet emailing for 5 minutes is not, but we can only speculate as to how a judge would see it.

The big issue here is the lack of clarity and absolutes in Thai legislation, imo.

Lawyers can't answer the question either, indeed the question has been asked there many times and varying answers have been received. The only person who can answer is a judge.

Besides which, the 'Ask a Lawyer' section is hardly a buzzing hub of activity is it.

This has been asked before on two occassions and believe in both cases the lawyer was of the opinion a WP was required

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/789130-working-remotely-from-thailand-computer-security/

Lawyers can't answer the question either, indeed the question has been asked there many times and varying answers have been received. The only person who can answer is a judge.

Besides which, the 'Ask a Lawyer' section is hardly a buzzing hub of activity is it.

I told the OP to talk to the Labour Department because they are the only authority that counts. And I'm not guessing but passing on information I've been told by the Labour Department.

A judge isn't required to throw someone out for illegal working. And as I've said to you before, if a court was involved there is no way they would come down in favour of the foreigner as the precedent would be to far reaching.

Many other people claim to have spoken to the Labour department and received conflicting advice to you - both versions of advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Pretty sure anybody arrested can deny charges and opt to go up in front of a judge, so in the case that the suspect wishes to contest the charges, a judge is required.

Your assumption regarding the decision a court would make is entirely opinion based. Still no precedents, I believe (not that they would necessarily impact future decisions anyway)

As the Labour Department would be the ones prosecuting I don't think taking their advice with a "pinch of salt" is good advice.

Agreed, if contested. If you were the OP and living in Thailand and working online for this foreign company would you honestly want to contest and face prison time?

Isn't a forum about opinion. Or does only your opinion count?

I am suggesting taking the conflicting second hand reports (including yours) from disparate DOL offices with a pinch of salt, not direct first hand interactions on a case by case basis with the DOL.

In regard to forums being 'about opinion', the reason I am arguing here because it seems that you are stating as FACT (and not as opinion) that the op would be illegal and I am questioning your ability to do so with the available information:

Simple. It's illegal.

• You cannot work in Thailand without a work permit and you cannot get a work permit for the work you describe

The OP did not describe the activity. They could be purely sending emails all day (hence the above questions), we do not know.

Given the extremely badly worded legal definition of 'work' in Thai legislation, only a judge can decide whether the OPs activity constitutes 'work' under that legislation or not, and the only true answer that the OP can be given is "It depends if a judge considers what you are doing to be 'work' under Thai law".

Guess you couldn't answer 3 then...

You're making the mistake of assuming that what the OP refers to as 'work' is definitely captured under the Thai legal definition - you cannot possibly know whether this is the case or not.

In regard to any comments from an IO pertaining to work - Immigration is not the DOL, and it is not their remit to give permission. Neither is there a legal definition of 'holiday'.

I don't understand why people try to convince other people that their random, irrelevant and arbitrary layman interpretation of the law is actually the law.

What on earth does being on 'hoilday/vacation' have to do with anything - where is the law that even treats someone differently if they are on 'holiday/vacation'?

seancbk introduced claiming to be on perpetual holiday was a way to circumvent the law.

Right, so think we're in agreement that there is no legal distinction between whether or not an activity is 'work' regardless of the length of stay and visa status of the individual in question.

Thai law simply says 'working is working' so therefore what is 'work' for someone who stays in Thailand for 5 years must logically also be 'work' for someone who stays for 5 days,

1 - If someone stays in Thailand for 5 days and spends 10 minutes a day dealing with business related emails, are they working?

2 - If someone stays in Thailand for 5 years and spends 8 hours a day dealing with business related emails, are they working?

3 - If the answers to 1 and 2 differ, why is that and upon what legal basis?

That is the whole point - unless you are employed by a Thai company and paid by them in Thailand you don't need a WP.

If you are 100% employed outside of Thailand and paid 100% outside of Thailand, you are not working here, even if living here.

Because again how can they stop you answering work emails and replying whilst on holiday? They can't.

Being paid is irrelevant. You could work for free while in Thailand but you still need the right visa and a work permit.

The OP is not someone on "holiday". He is talking about being resident here and working. Big difference.

Can you point to the legislation that treats somebody on "holiday" and somebody "resident here" differently? And the bit where the distinction is made between "replying to emails" and "updating a blog"?

Too many amateur judges on here - given the extreme lack of clarity in the Thai legal definition of 'work', nobody except a judge (a real one) can make a judgement call regarding the interpretation of it and determine what is 'working' and what is 'not working'.

Anybody else who claims with zero authority to interpret the law that is is 'illegal' or indeed 'legal' is just guessing.

I told the OP to talk to the Labour Department because they are the only authority that counts. And I'm not guessing but passing on information I've been told by the Labour Department.

A judge isn't required to throw someone out for illegal working. And as I've said to you before, if a court was involved there is no way they would come down in favour of the foreigner as the precedent would be to far reaching.

Many other people claim to have spoken to the Labour department and received conflicting advice to you - both versions of advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Pretty sure anybody arrested can deny charges and opt to go up in front of a judge, so in the case that the suspect wishes to contest the charges, a judge is required.

Your assumption regarding the decision a court would make is entirely opinion based. Still no precedents, I believe (not that they would necessarily impact future decisions anyway)

Happy for them to delve through mine, my income is not subject to tax in my home country since I'm not resident there, it's not sourced there, and it's not remitted there.

Have fun HMRC.

That is the whole point - unless you are employed by a Thai company and paid by them in Thailand you don't need a WP.

If you are 100% employed outside of Thailand and paid 100% outside of Thailand, you are not working here, even if living here.

Because again how can they stop you answering work emails and replying whilst on holiday? They can't.

Being paid is irrelevant. You could work for free while in Thailand but you still need the right visa and a work permit.

The OP is not someone on "holiday". He is talking about being resident here and working. Big difference.

Can you point to the legislation that treats somebody on "holiday" and somebody "resident here" differently? And the bit where the distinction is made between "replying to emails" and "updating a blog"?

Too many amateur judges on here - given the extreme lack of clarity in the Thai legal definition of 'work', nobody except a judge (a real one) can make a judgement call regarding the interpretation of it and determine what is 'working' and what is 'not working'.

Anybody else who claims with zero authority to interpret the law that is is 'illegal' or indeed 'legal' is just guessing.