francescoassisi

This article gives you an idea of how big (and ongoing) the problem is....

http://m.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/13/china-customs-pangolin

YOU HAVE PROVIDED NO SOURCES !!!!!!!!!!! If your an expert then where is your research? It should be ready to go. I've been trolled again... probably by JS/ZZ... well I learned something.

nah. it is not me. i would never exploit such case for another Thailand bashing or antiChinese rant like the OP and some others here do. they are the trolls.

thailand bashing and anti Chinese? Show me

just look at the topic title you choose for that 2 years old news story.thailand is obviously the place for disgraceful hubs for you.would you wrote that if some western smugglers of endangered animals would get busted in a western country?and in the following comments i could read how uncivilized these people are and often repeated lies were told that the Chinese would believe in some sexual magic food and are so responsible for extinction of these animals.so i have my doubt there is some honest concern about the fate of these cute little pangolin fellas. it is the front story to start some racist bashing.

You will also note that none of the remarks you mention come from me

The article I refer to 104 pangolins is as I said this week 26 march Bangkok post

You are confused as I then refer to an ongoing situation and give previous examples

YOU HAVE PROVIDED NO SOURCES !!!!!!!!!!! If your an expert then where is your research? It should be ready to go. I've been trolled again... probably by JS/ZZ... well I learned something.

nah. it is not me. i would never exploit such case for another Thailand bashing or antiChinese rant like the OP and some others here do. they are the trolls.

If your an expert then where is your research? It should be ready to go

This is going from the sublime to the ridiculous

As for you concern for my timetable I'm touched....and "expert"?...I'm flattered.

Breeding is just a process of selecting desirable traits.

Some animals are much easier to domesticate like ferrets. lemurs, primates so no it might not take hundreds of years...

It's a lot easier to get people interested in say a Lemur than a Wolf.

But a number of people have asked you of examples of endangered animals that have been harmed by farming or captive breeding and you have never answered with any?

Are these imaginary animals?

Many animals have been kept from extinction with "captive breeding" such as the Condor. So if breeding is in the name then is it not breeding?

I'm sorry but it seems that you are just making baseless assumptions on various issues here. I think you should take some time to read up on conservation (and domestication in conservation terms) and then I'm sure you'll see how naive your comments are.

I have to say in one way they are quite useful as they serve to illustrate the huge gap between persception and

reality in the public at large.

I can only address so much given time and space available to me but if you find reading difficult you might Google some conservation sites or watch some documentaries on the subject. I won't suggest any as they are so easy to find.

One word OK d advice though. Check out how to identify a trustworthy source. I find many people find it very hard to sort the wheat from the chart, especially on the net....which as I'd shown often on this site isbopenb to the most bizaarre thought designedd mostly to appeal to ignorance and prejudice

YOU HAVE PROVIDED NO SOURCES !!!!!!!!!!!

If your an expert then where is your research? It should be ready to go.

I've been trolled again... probably by JS/ZZ... well I learned something.

However I'm getting the impression that you find yourself running OK it of things to say so you have resorted to shooting the messenger?

If you want primary source material why not join a conservation group, speak to the researchers directly or go to university....for you it could be a revelation.

There ius a huge difference between "captive breeding" and breeding in captivity.

You cite the condor reintroduction programming; do you consider that everything is OK with the Condor now?

And yet again you don't show any indication that you understand the enormously complex processes involved in reintroducing animals ( or plants) back into the wild.

You can Google some on thus quite easily and if you check the tiger temple threads you'll find their "plans" for reintroduction discussed there. Suffice it to say that reintroduction is seldom the evolution, allowing indigenous stock to thrive is the preferred solution.

Please I employee you, IH fbyou are interested in conservation....and it sounds like you could be, READ, READ, READ.

Breeding is just a process of selecting desirable traits.

Some animals are much easier to domesticate like ferrets. lemurs, primates so no it might not take hundreds of years...

It's a lot easier to get people interested in say a Lemur than a Wolf.

But a number of people have asked you of examples of endangered animals that have been harmed by farming or captive breeding and you have never answered with any?

Are these imaginary animals?

Many animals have been kept from extinction with "captive breeding" such as the Condor. So if breeding is in the name then is it not breeding?

I'm sorry but it seems that you are just making baseless assumptions on various issues here. I think you should take some time to read up on conservation (and domestication in conservation terms) and then I'm sure you'll see how naive your comments are.

I have to say in one way they are quite useful as they serve to illustrate the huge gap between persception and

reality in the public at large.

I can only address so much given time and space available to me but if you find reading difficult you might Google some conservation sites or watch some documentaries on the subject. I won't suggest any as they are so easy to find.

One word OK d advice though. Check out how to identify a trustworthy source. I find many people find it very hard to sort the wheat from the chart, especially on the net....which as I'd shown often on this site isbopenb to the most bizaarre thought designedd mostly to appeal to ignorance and prejudice

Education is crucial to conservation and some of the comments on this thread really underline how general lack of knowledge of the issues surrounding conservation are by no means restricted to the more rural parts of South and East Asia.

I was surprised again by someone who needed to know of farmed animals that contributed to the pressure on their cousins in the wild.

He of the most obvious is here in Thailand vis-à-vis the tiger. Also in thailand the home grown elephant causes problems for both wild ones here and in Africa.

The problem is not jut restricted to animals, forestry and species of trees herbs etc etc are put under pressure too.

https://www.facebook.com/WorldPangolinDay

I guess the demand is mostly for medicinal cuisine.

I wonder about the taste.. What if it tasted like Foie Gras and Bacon with truffles?

Can they breed and farm these guys? Maybe that would take the pressure off the wild populations.

And I wonder if they are domesticated for pets?

Again you misunderstand the basics. Domesticating is a process of selective breeding that takes hundreds of years.

I think the above poster is being a bit naive.

Below is from the save the pangolin web site.

Pets medicine or food, farming wild animals has a tendency to increase demand and therefore pressure on the wild population of endangered animals

This also tends to make people less concerned about the wild population whose habitat is then destroyed at an ever increasing rate....

"Pangolins are hunted for food, for use in traditional medicine and as fashion accessories, and for a rampant illegal international trade in scales, skins, and meat. There is high demand for nearly all of their body parts, principally from China. The large-scale illegal trade in Asian pangolins is drastically driving down their numbers throughout Southeast Asia. Rapid loss and deterioration of available habitat places added pressure on the dwindling numbers of remaining pangolins".

what are some examples of farming and breeding animals causing the demand to increase and pressure the wild ones?

Just curious

Good question. It would seem that if the animal-rights folks are most concerned about extinction, they'd be in support of farming and breeding these animals to meet both demand and ensure survival of the species. Apparently not.

I don't have a dog in this fight. In fact, I wouldn't know a pangolin if I was pissing on one. But every time an animal-rights activist opens his/her mouth, I cringe. They seem to love animals more than people...which is certainly their right. But in fact, pretty much every culture/country has examples of what could constitute animal cruelty. Why should a pangolin be treated any differently than a cow or pig? If they're endangered, certainly, but breeding them doesn't seem to be the answer that animal-rights folks want to hear either.

On a somewhat unrelated note, why does it seem that every endangered animal on this planet that gets smuggled always ends up in China? Is everything considered medicine over there?

It would seem that if the animal-rights folks are most concerned about extinction, they'd be in support of farming and breeding these animals to meet both demand and ensure survival of the species. Apparently not. It would seem that if the animal-rights folks are most concerned about extinction, they'd be in support of farming and breeding these animals to meet both demand and ensure survival of the species. Apparently not.

You are displaying a big lack of knowledge here. The arguments here are about conservation - not animal loving.

Id say that judging by your comments you are remarkably uninformed on the topic as you arguments are at best spurious but also demonstrate a lack of awareness that is potentially dangerous to conservation.

.......you are making a commonly made mistake here equating conservationists with animal lovers, presumably through your own apparent lack of knowledge on the subject. I have and others already said Im NOT an animal lover and conservation is not dependant being an animal lover . It is a scientific study of how the planet works as a biosphere of interlinked eco-systems, and the logical conclusions drawn from it.

(I consider expression animal lover actually is little more than a sound-bite or stereotype used to dismiss the arguments by those who have no argument themselves).

Farming - There are various arguments for and against farming of wild animals and some - which again it seems you havent read - point out that from a conservationist point of view this isnt often a solution - see above.

Farming of wild animals for food is seldom an efficient way of supplying food/protein - we have spent many millennia selectively breeding and domesticating animals for this purpose. It also tends to increase the value and interest in the wild equivalents as a cheap (free if poached) alternative; it also makes it easier to dispose of carcasses of poached wild animals - e.g. the situation with the Thai ivory trade

Then you seem to try and dichotomise the topic, suggesting that instead of animals (as Ive said an incorrect interpretation) they should love people

They seem to love animals more than people this again shows how wide of the mark your understanding is of the whole concept of conservation is....as if it is simply a question of preference!

Men with limp dicks and stupid enough to believe in lame cures will kill the last of the planet.

Speak for yourself Sunshine!!

Mildred! pass the powdered rhino horn and tiger penis...I'm feeling frisky!!!

I think the above poster is being a bit naive.

Below is from the save the pangolin web site.

Pets medicine or food, farming wild animals has a tendency to increase demand and therefore pressure on the wild population of endangered animals

This also tends to make people less concerned about the wild population whose habitat is then destroyed at an ever increasing rate....

"Pangolins are hunted for food, for use in traditional medicine and as fashion accessories, and for a rampant illegal international trade in scales, skins, and meat. There is high demand for nearly all of their body parts, principally from China. The large-scale illegal trade in Asian pangolins is drastically driving down their numbers throughout Southeast Asia. Rapid loss and deterioration of available habitat places added pressure on the dwindling numbers of remaining pangolins".

The disgrace is the eating of these creatures. And these animals were discovered in Thailand, before they were eating. Frankly, with the amount of animals that get discovered at BKK, etc, its a wonder anyone even tries to bring them through there.

OP

I might point too that once discovered the Thai authorities show a singular lack of concern for their charges and many subsequently die from lack of care or find their way backbintobthevtrade.

I wonder if this thread will get closed like the one you opened up 5 minutes prior on the same thing. Then redirected to where this discussion is taking place

I think that was a technical glytch

What's a Pangolin?delicious apparently

"The Guardian provided a description of the killing and eating of pangolins: "A Guangdong chef interviewed last year in the Beijing Science and Technology Daily described how to prepare a pangolin: 'We keep them alive in cages until the customer makes an order. Then we hammer them unconscious, cut their throats and drain the blood. It is a slow death. We then boil them to remove the scales. We cut the meat into small pieces and use it to make a number of dishes, including braised meat and soup. Usually the customers take the blood home with them afterwards.'"

104 pangolins were discovered by the Thai navy this week near Udon in an SUV bound for the Chinese market.

This is an ongoing problem

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/09/26/photos-100-pangolins-seiz_n_981051.html

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/6198

Even though these animals have so far avoided the pot, they still face a slow lingering death as the authorities have no facilities for looking after them and refuse to hand over to charities set up to care for animals in such predicaments

What's a Pangolin?delicious apparently

"The Guardian provided a description of the killing and eating of pangolins: "A Guangdong chef interviewed last year in the Beijing Science and Technology Daily described how to prepare a pangolin: 'We keep them alive in cages until the customer makes an order. Then we hammer them unconscious, cut their throats and drain the blood. It is a slow death. We then boil them to remove the scales. We cut the meat into small pieces and use it to make a number of dishes, including braised meat and soup. Usually the customers take the blood home with them afterwards.'"

104 pangolins were discovered this week in an SUV bound for the Chinese market.

This is an ongoing problem

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/09/26/photos-100-pangolins-seiz_n_981051.html

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/6198

Can anyone give a summary of income tax rates for single/married person in Thailand