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"We Thai patriots want to declare our intent to form a people's network to restore Thai sovereignty to the surrounding areas of Prasat Phra Wiharn," Veera said.

He pledged to pursue every legal means to reclaim Thai territory. He also warned officials that they would be penalised if they were caught involved in the territorial violations.

He went on to complain against the Cambodian government for allowing Cambodian villagers and soldiers to settle and build a road on Thai soil.

He called for an immediate withdrawal by Cambodia from Thai property. He urged the Thai military to take action under martial law to repel the transgression."

So how is it better now? Freedom of speech is better? Freedom of the press is better? Individual liberties better? LM prosecutions are fewer? How exactly is it better now?

I think you'd refuse to see that it's better regardless of any arguments.

Freedom of speech - in T-days people were sued left and right for billions, not happening anymore.

Freedom of press - there are half a dozen anti-government publications. In T-days he sued every media outlet even slightly critical.

Justice - for the first time in history power does not give immunity anymore.

:D

Why don't you look at it through Thaksin's lawyers eyes, they've spent six months in jail, or former EC commissioners who were jailed, or Pojamarn, who was convicted of tax fraud, or Samak who tried to fool the court with fabricated evidence, or Thaksin himself who can't escape justice despite all his money and fan clubs everywhere.

What's wrong with the economy? Outside it's the worst crisis since Great Depression, but in Thailand unemployment is minimal and when companies start rehiring, the workers are reluctant to come back.

Human rights - of course it's better, in Thaksin's days he was rallying the country not to show any mercy to dead drug dealers, he ordered an inconvenient lawyer to be abducted and killed by the police and next day declared that the man simply ran away from his wife.

Media freedom - there are half a dozen red publications and their own TV station, and they are not sued to bankruptcy by Abhisit.

Justice - for the first time in history power does not give immunity anymore.

The real worry for Thaksin is that the country IS getting better, and he is part of the problem, not the solution.

For umpteenth time - it wasn't PAD who provoked the fight, PAD had every right to demonstrate.

Who were those idiots who thought PAD had to be stopped by force?

What is this "disputed territory" everyone keeps refering to? Both countries have asked that this land division be decided upon by international courts, right? They have consistently given the temple to Cambodia. It's the entrance on the Thai border, that's the problem. The land outside of this temple is littered with landmines and it's not the big dispute.

I hope not everybody in this thread as misinformed as this poster.

The land outside the temple is PRECISELY the problem. 4.6 sq km of it. Court ruling only covered the temple itself, not the surrounding areas in dispute.

Landmines or not, but Cambodians built a settlement there together with the temple and a road.

Both countries lay claim to those areas, but only Cambodians dared to actually use them as their own.

What is wrong with PAD, or anyone else, asking the govt why that was allowed to happen and what they govt is going to do about it. Democrat's response that it is a sensitive issue that shouldn't be brought in public is reasonable, now they have to explain what they are doing to PAD leaders who would in turn convey it to the people.

It's a perfectly reasonable question really..!! Where is Thailand now..??

Agreed, when he was in power the economy was good and Thailand was ticking along quite nicely. However, forget the current economic climate around the world and surely everyone can see that since he has departed this place has gone into full meltdown.

Airport stormed and closed, political turmoil not seen for decades, an inept government (not democratically elected!). The list goes on and on.

No, it pretty much stops right there.

Political turmoil revolves around Thaksin's fate, nothing else.

The government IS democratically elected, the vote was televised and I saw it myself. The other candidate lost by a large margin.

Whether you like Thaksin or not, things (in my opinion) were a whole lot better when he was PM.

His last years in charge the growth slowed down to 4-5% and stayed that way all through the crisis, until the meltdown in the rest of the world reached Thailand this year.

I laugh at the posts on here, "Thaksin is a criminal", "he's corrupt".. bla, bla, bla. Do you honestly believe that Thailand is in a better social state now..??

Yes, a few dodgy deals here and there

Twelve outstanding court cases with one conviction under his belt, and the political ban for electoral fraud. Current ministers suspected of corruption are removed even before the opposition gets a whiff of impropriety, and the only case they brought to people's attention in a censure debate is some posters from five years ago involving people who are no longer with the party.

How can you NOT see the difference in the way the country is run under Democrats.

Or Thailand could just grant the residents Thai citizenship. Its not their fault which governments decided to give them id cards - purely chance based on which side of an imaginary line their birth got registered. No wonder the locals want the protesters to go away - when your family is straddling a border you don't want outsiders coming along stirring up trouble and telling you your great aunt should be evicted because the border happened to move a couple of decades ago, somehow transforming her into the enemy.

Afaik, they are squatters, they were not born there, they moved in when tourism trade boomed.

Didn't the PAD also break through police barriers though?

The police has no right to block a peaceful rally either. Also keep in mind that there was a stalemate for several hours during which provincial governor tried to persuade PAD to abandon their plan, and then hel_l broke lose.

I think local officials and the police haven't got enough experience with crowd control yet. The wanted PAD to stop, pack up, and return where they came from with nothing. Like that has ever worked with any demonstration.

The more stupid people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Do you mean that this is the reason you hang out on Thaivisa now?

Thanks.

Or maybe you were replying in Pets and animals forum and there was some technical screw up?

if they were a bunch of red shirts with exactly the same agenda and acting exactly the same way

You mean if reds were peacefully marching somewhere and locals put up barricades to stop them? Apart from blue shirts that no one supports here, I can't recollect any of such cases.

I also don't think many people would support disrupting a peaceful red rally.

I think you got carried away a little bit - the villagers didn't have any rights to physically blockade PAD there. Don't forget that eventually the army negotiated a way out - let PAD read their statement at Pha Mor Ee Daeng gate and fuc_k off. The clash should have been avoided and those who provoked it should be held responsible.

Also keep in mind that Chamlong said none of the five PAD leaders had anything to do with this rally, Veera Somkwamkid has to be held solely responsible on PAD side there, not the overall movement.

Reds were not there, no need to bring them into this topic,

As opposed to when a thread goes on about red shirt violence and then somebody pops up with how well behaved the yellow shirts are in comparison.

Feel free to complain when it happens.

So far reds have nothing to do with this incident. Unless they were manipulating the locals to erect those barricades.

Apparently they were immune from prosecution thanks to the Emergency Decree, it was a non-starter.

The Nation once promised to investigate the issue - was there a decree in place and who and what was covered by it, but they didn't keep their promise. The court mentioned it in its ruling, that's all we know.

Personally I'd go for shooting live rounds into the crowd and killing six (or eight?) people, and, of course, for politicians who publicly defended military action without any regret for any of the victims.

Thaksin has been trying to overthrow Thai state during all this time, and now he asks why there's not much progress - he's the main reason why.

I thought the PAD were the thugs powered by the elite? not the "significant amount of people with concerns about the country".

Sorry, but widespread urban support is in Jayboy's quote from Chang Noi, even if I disagree with the tone of it.

If they were concerned about the country, they wouldn't continue to create unrest,

And now PAD leaders distanced themselves from KPV adventure, and none of them was present there.

which is then shows in the evening news around the world and dropping Thailand further down the list in countries preferred by tourists, as they did when they took the airports and government buildings hostage.

Maybe, but no one had any better ways of fighting off Thaksin. The court took almost a year to issue a verdict, and without PAD protests the govt, which gained power via illegal means, could have completely exonerate Thaksin, outlaw AEC and rehabilitate banned TRT executives.

PAD protests were natural reaction of people towards abuse of power by politicians, starting with Thaksin, and it was a rather small price to pay in retrospect. Thanks to PAD, Thaksin is now finished and toothless, and hopes for a miracle.

T always presents himself as a big shot business genius

He has that effect on people, it's a god given gift and he's got it. Not fair to fault Man City's bosses for falling for his charms, they were not the first ones.

From the Nation's report - "The PAD just wanted to enter Pha Mor Ee Daeng to read out their statement."

Why they had to be stopped on the way there? On what grounds? Why were they met with barricades?

Once PAD broke thought those barricades and reached Pha Mor Ee Daeng they were contained there without problems.

Once reds broke through blue provocateurs in Pattaya they stormed Asean meeting.

This episode should be an opportunity to discuss why Thais descended into fighting with other Thais over how to deal with Cambodians. Reds were not there, no need to bring them into this topic, thanks to Webfact they have a few dozen threads of their own.

And they even stated that they would fight everyone in their way.

People "in their way" do not come with flowers, so what do you expect?

PAD shouldn't have provoked the locals with their rally, but the locals shouldn't have tried to force PAD to abandon it either.

Don't get carried away with blame game - the best scenario would have been PAD peacefully rallying on Thai soil and their concerns conveyed to the Thai and Cambodian military.

Now the opportunity is lost. Who thwarted it, and what was the purpose?

Was the point to prove that PAD is violent? That would seem like a provocation if not outright setup. I hope the locals were just stupid and didn't know what they were doing, and probably still don't.

And it would be a scandal if there was some outside influence to lure PAD into a fight. Those bloody invisible hands, or invisible bloody hands - both fit.

widespread urban support

Here's your answer what gives PAD its power. They represent significant amount of people with concerns about the country, without any sign of self-interest. They might be wrong and they might be rough, but they are sincere, and they are the best you've got.

Or you can go with elites plans on how to proceed, or the army with the likes of Saprang, or PTP led by Chalerm, or the red mob directed from Dubai.

Take you pick.

And Scott, can you stick to your moderating duties and stop flaming posters by comparing them to Iraqi information minister. First time I saw it I thought I should press "report" button

I don't recall using your name in my post, or anyone's name for that matter.

I didn't mention you offended me either.

Just sort out this moderator/debater thing, please.

Brahmburgers, here, in your own post, is the answer why even if someone cried for help for those suffocating they were not going to let them off the trucks:

"The soldiers on the scene were scared, especially with night approaching, of an attack by angry Muslim mobs who were not already detained."

Yes, the detainees were treated with no respect for their human dignity, but it's still a long way from actually ending their lives, though on the spur of the moment that probably wasn't a very high priority.

To make a distinction clear - soldiers were out to humiliate them, not to kill, and it's the humiliation that burns muslim hearts to this day, not the deaths per se.

>>>

Or consider this hypothetical scenario - there were five more trucks, detainees are stacked in four layers instead of five, no one dies. Military are out in the clear, more or less.

Unless you can show that they deliberately ordered less trucks than there were available, don't declare that they were out to suffocate the detainees. Unless you can show evidence that they were stalling on purpose, don't paint them as soulless killers.

As I said - gross negligence, manslaughter, judgment error, but not premeditated murder of 80 people.

..last year it was the yellow, now its the reds, maybe next year it will be blue, or green, all I see are 2 sides that cannot work together on anything period.

Remembering that newbie's question on the first page - it's all about Thaksin and getting rid of him.

Colors, democracy, coups, vote buying, elections - they all don't matter, they are just meaningless labels to sway outsiders to your cause. And by outsiders I mean millions of people who had no idea what color they were five years ago.

Mc2 got it right, for once - reds love Thaksin and yellows hate him. There's not much more to it than that.

And the only way they can reconcile if Thaksin's fate satisfies them. Yellows want to see him punished, reds want to see him vindicated. If there's a way out of this mess it's this - how to deal with Thaksin in a manner that pleases both sides?

Locals apparently barricaded the road and stopped the buses PAD was using to go to the temple. PAD got off and fought its way through.

I don't support this latest move to KPV, but I don't think it was PAD who were started the fight, at least as it's reported in the Nation.

The temple is unnecessary diversion for PAD, they should stick to anti- Thaksin agenda. The only good that might come out of it is that Thais in general would try to seriously think about what to do with KPV and surrounding areas.

Cambodians should remove their people, that's a reasonable demand.

The way I see it is that Thais, being friendly neighbors, allowed them to settle there and even erect a Buddhist shrine, but now it's gone to far - the land is in dispute, they are squatters, basically, and their government is threatening to shoot any Thai who approaches there. What gives them right? They are taking advantage of "inhumane Thai military" that doesn't shoot Cambodians living there.

And now some Thais are pissed off and PAD is taking them to the border. Si Sa Ket people shouldn't have try to stop and engage them, it just complicates a fairly simple demand.

"they had to put a thousand people on ten trucks" as an excuse ? nice. what they actually had to do was ensure a level of care. if they had to transport people, they do so properly according prisoners their rights. we are talking about the thai national military here, with a budget for things like buses.

They had a few hours before dark to organize this operation, there was no time to push the budget for buses and wait for delivery.

They had ten trucks that could be locked from outside, prisoner rights or not, that was all there was.

And no, they couldn't lease buses suitable for transporting prisoners from some company on a few hours notice.

Again, the simple point that the deaths were unintended is escaping you. That's the difference between Tak Bai and the alleged burning people alive.

Rohingyas were pushed back according to the rule book at the time. Other countries are not represented only by diplomats - they also have media to express their feelings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CGlTYqqK98...feature=related

Have a look at the video.

These are not trucks that can be locked from the outside.

They are not the trucks used by the police or prisons to transport prisoners with lockable cages.

They are open, canvas roof with drop down sides.

They are two a penny in Thailand. The armed forces have thousands!

Do you have any evidence that they had more trucks available in that area but didn't use them? Or do you seriously believe they have thousands of trucks on standby in every little village?

I would go with judgment error, manslaughter, gross negligence - whatever, but not premeditated slaughter, and certainly not on par with burning a teenager alive.

At Tak Bai they should have been trying to prosecute them for firing live rounds into the crowd and killing 6 people than arguing maximum capacity of those trucks.

Key word in that letter to AHRC - in hindsight.

Rohingya - there were no hundreds, possibly thousand dead after Thai navy set them adrift.

And Scott, can you stick to your moderating duties and stop flaming posters by comparing them to Iraqi information minister. First time I saw it I thought I should press "report" button.

Truth, for you, is a that Thai military are inhumane. That's not truth, that's an opinion. Facts are that there's no evidence Thai army was involved in the burning alive incident, there's no evidence the soldiers were trying to deliberately suffocate those muslims in the trucks, and there were no thousand dead Rohingyas starved to death. Whatever conclusions you draw from this facts is not "truth".

I looked at upiasia story and there are no specifics there on what they army could have done differently, and they blame mostly the court.

I'm getting kind of tired of "demand competence" without ANY suggestions of how it should have been done under circumstances.

The commanders procured ten trucks and there were a thousand people, and the night was approaching.

The nearest army base was several hours away.

And then there's a poster who says it was a case of gross inhumanity, but then goes on to demonstrate that burning people alive is not such a bad thing and happens all the time.

Reds view the military and the courts as evil incarnate called to slay the democracy while the majority of people think that military and courts are best what this state has to offer.

This shows that reds are not only in minority, but their views are also extremist by majority's perception.

And all of this confirms that reds simply follow Thaksin's lead on finding the enemies. Coup ousted him - target the military, courts convicted him - target the courts.

It also shows that several recent verdicts - TRT dissolution case, Thaksin conviction, PPP dissolution case - didn't put a serious dent in courts credibility among general public.

Legally you can do anything, like order buses to appear out of the blue.

Why don't you think for a second of logistics of moving a thousand of men on a short notice?

You can't put them on interprovincial buses, they'd just jump out of the windows, and it's not like Tak Bai has a fleet of buses just sitting and waiting there anyway.

As for stacking people on top of each other - that was probably the only way to fit a required number of prisoners on one truck.

I wasn't there, you weren't there. But if low ranked officers say they got an order to put a hundred people in one truck and they've got nothing else to go with, what were they supposed to do? Refuse to follow? And then what? Wait for the night to come and the men would just run off in the darkness?

Who, in your mind, should be held responsible? They guy who couldn't magically produce fifty prisoner transport trucks? The guy who said - load them on, we have no other options? They guys who pushed them on the trucks?

Engage your brains a little, put yourself mentally in that situation, try to visualize the problems, the chain of command, your own duties and your orders. It shouldn't be that hard.

Will you have balls to rebel and tell the commanding officer to fuc_k off in the name of human rights and risk losing your own life in the process?

It's so easy to demand bravery from others when you post on the Internet anonymously.

excuses like "a few hours before dark" and only having "ten trucks that could be locked from outside" is quite simply not good enough. why cant we hold the military to the very highest standards ?

It's not an excuse, it's the reality - a thousand men in an open area, a couple of hours to make a decision and organize transport to the nearest army camp with only a few trucks available.

Your rhetoric doesn't provide any solutions.

There was a news snippet on TV a couple of days ago. A lady in Chonburi was doused with gasoline and set afire. Lucky for the lady that most of the gas only hit her arm and looks like she will survive. But I'm sure that it was unintentional and her beloved boy friend never had any idea that the gasoline would actually ignite when he threw the match.

That was clearly a crime of passion. Did those Thai soldiers (that no one provided any evidence were even there) been spurned by that boy's infidelity?

Request to the mods - why don't you pull all 19 Sept rally threads into one instead of a dozen confusingly similar topics.

And when the next generic "The police promise to keep peace" article arrives, append it to that thread.

It's impossible to maintain a discussion across all these separate threads.