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I can't believe you're really this obtuse. tell me you're kidding.If you'd care to read my post you'd see I said that Animatic didn't say those words. If you really need somebody to completely verbalize something before forming an opinion based on other things they wrote then you must be all of 5 years old.

Plus where I'm from some quarters can refer to a single entity.

Poorly informed is nowhere near "intellectual morons"

He also used the word "ignorance" or is that a term used in reference to nuclear physicists where you're from?

He also specifically stressed that ignorance he was talking about was not a sight of stupidity. Moron is synonim for stupid, btw.

He was talking about Thaksin, and "being kept in the dark" is not being an "intellectual moron"

As another point goes sailing into the stratosphere above your head. My point is that Thaksin didn't keep Isaan people in the dark with his B/S. They aren't daft. To suggest otherwise would indicate that yes, Isaan people are "intellectual morons'

It would be daft to claim that Thaksin didn't use mass media to control the flow of opinions and information.

The truth is you put your words into people's mouths, got caught, and now you are trying to justify it with one post which you are stretching beyond any reason.

Doctored or not - the stuff on the tape is seriously damaging to Prime Minister's reputation, you should expect some sort of a response, most likely lawsuit for defamation or libel, whichever applies, in this case Computer Act, and you will have to be prepared to defend yourself in court. What do you think are the chances "I didn't know it was false" defence line?

The fake abhisit clip is on the same disgusting level and as inciting as the "finland plan" - i wouldn't mind seeing the originators of both in court.

Nice try. There's a difference, however.

Abhisit's actual words are a matter of public record.

What has been discussed at that meeting in Finland is still a secret. None of the participants, and i guess there were dozens of them, came forward with a "real" version.

Ever.

Only a couple admitted that there actually WAS a meeting and visions of Thailand's future were discussed and that's where they all developed either a memory loss or speech impediment.

Makes one wonder why they never tried to sue the publishers - maybe they are afraid to present their version of the story.

Don't misunderstand me - I'm all for openness here. Let them sue, it's probably the only way to find out what really happened.

...

The origins of the e-mail chain were traced to SC Asset, that has been widely reported. What did I alter here?

I did; clearly underlined and in orange (post #94)! What more do you want??? Okay, let's help you in baby steps...

The original news item (postem at the start of this thread) and other news clips posted make clear statements about the two employees who forwarded this audio clip:

News clip (post #1) "Monday warned the people against forwarding Prime Minister's doctored audio clip"

News clip (post #6) "two company employees arrested on Sunday for alleged involvement in the release of the controversial audio clip"

News clip (post #55) "have been charged with disseminating the controversial audio"

You then alter those statements to suit your purpose... In your post (#84) you stated that the people caught (and released) were responsible for the recording; your words (post #84) "Out of thousands that have been involved in this only people who have been arrested (and released) are the guys who started it all."

They didn't start anything, nobody (except you) is saying they did... They had an audio clip which they forwarded to some work colleagues, nothing more.

You, I and likely hundreds of thousands of other people in Thailand could be equally 'guilty' of forwarding similar information in a similar way (yellow, red or blue info: it matters not). This is political thuggery by the ruling power, it's undemocratic and very dangerous. It's an abuse of freedom of speech and freedom of sharing information, in my opinion - these are the actions of scary states; Stalin has been mentioned along with the Burmese junta (I mentioned the 70's Pakistan junta)...

Blinkered and polarized folk such as yourself who support actions of this type by this 'government' are helping to set this country back decades. It is not acceptable for MrT, Abby, the army or anyone else to silence the people...

You regularly misquote news clips, statements and quotes, in the way outlined above, to suit your blinkered viewpoint. I stand by my words; it's pathetic and shameless to alter and / or misquote statements in order to further your 'argument'...

The guys admitted getting a CD of the clip, putting it into mp3 format and sending it to their collegues.

That was the start of the viral e-mail forwarding chain that included even opposition MPs.

I never claimed they created the clip themselves. And they never said they simply forwarded e-mail recieved from somebody else. And your objections don't make any sense whatsoever.

It seems the only reason for your lenghty post is to put in words like "blinkered", "pathetic" and "shameless".

... removal of a democraticaly elected goverment and prime minister in a coup de tat?

The guy was an interim PM for over half a year, not democractically elected. He couldn't get elected in April, remember? And the stuff he tried to pull off to win should have permanently disqaulify him from talking anything about "elections" and "democratic", but he got five year ban instead.

"Ignorance is bliss some say, which should not be confused with stupidity,

just not knowing of options or mitigating facts doesn't make one stupid, just poorly informed."

Poorly informed is nowhere near "intellectual morons"

"He kept the Issanese in the dark as much as possible about anything BUT his 'great deeds for them""

He was talking about Thaksin, and "being kept in the dark" is not being an "intellectual moron".

"He cynically played up fortune tellers, black magic, witchcraft and age old susperstitions

with a faux Budhist overlay, to identify more closely with back country people."

Yet again, nothing to suggest Animatic called them "intellectual morons".

It's you, MCA, who put these words into other's mouths, not forgetting that one Animatic's post itself doesn't qualify as "consensus in some quarters". Who else did you imply thinks that Isanese are "intellectual morons"?

Apparently the two employees have been fired and Jatuporn claims the clip came from an army base.

Clauswitz - yes, the two guys can say they didn't know it was doctored, but it still leaves questions about their motives. This is some serious stuff on there, it's not just an innocent prank like Maew rap clips on youtube.

As I said - if they wanted to be whistle blowers on Abhisit, they should have checked the source, or put a HUGE disclaimer on it. I understand there was nothing of the kind.

Doctored or not - the stuff on the tape is seriously damaging to Prime Minister's reputation, you should expect some sort of a response, most likely lawsuit for defamation or libel, whichever applies, in this case Computer Act, and you will have to be prepared to defend yourself in court. What do you think are the chances "I didn't know it was false" defence line?

I see that Animatic went out of the way NOT to call Isanese stupid or no brained intellectual morons.

How did MCA came up with "There seems to be a consensus on this thread from some quarters.." is beyond me.

Given that this MCA's line started an off topic debate stretching for pages - yes, it was trollish. He accused "some quarters" of saying things they didn't say and forming some kind of consensus, and it all went down from there.

what happen if you spread some BS or potentially damaging whatever about a country's ex-Prime Minister?

You get sued for billions.

Complete speculation and different from what the police and Abhisit have stated...

You always shamelessly alter the facts. During my several years on this forum you are the absolute worst at this habit; above is a simple example. It's pathetic...

Show me what facts I altered to justify labels like "shameless" and "pathetic".

Actually you should have included them in your post in the first place, without me having to ask you to clarify.

Without them it's nothing but flaming post without any substance.

The origins of the e-mail chain were traced to SC Asset, that has been widely reported. What did I alter here?

Plus, I wasn't referring to this particular thread as referring to people as stupid. Some posters have been consistent in denigrating them....but that's a side issue.

Where? I think I've read every post here, but the first time it was brought up is on the previous page by MCA without any proof.

Part of the problem is that the split between the red shirts and the political party they tend to support may widen in which case you end up with a renegade group.

So far it's a split between red leadership and red politicians. People will go and vote all the same. Or maybe reds will start their own party. Up to them. Nobody can assign them their representatives.

That audio clip has been spread all over the place, uploaded on the Internet and what not.

Out of thousands that have been involved in this only people who have been arrested (and released) are the guys who started it all.

They can claim they got it from someone else and they didn't know it was doctored, and it will probably stand in court, but at this moment the police wants to scare them into giving up the source. Never seen this tactic with the small fry used in the movies?

I have no idea what was allegedly going on in their heads when they heard this recording. If they thought they were whistle blowers on Abhisit, it was their responsibility to check it out first. If they thought it was "fun", just like forwarding videos of showering neighbours, there's a law for that.

Next time think twice when you decide to spread something so potentially damaging to any other party, be it your ex-girlfriend or a country's Prime Minister.

So a politician questions the governments claims and the reply is a call for party dissolution?

What are you talking about? In this case it's the other way around - the government questions the opposition's claim that Abhisit ordered a crackdown, and it showed that their "proof" was a forgery.

It doesn't matter if he is the most popular politician. Popularity doesn't beat the law.

Agreed but equally it's important to ensure the law and the judicial process is even handed and not in any sense politically "directed".

Thaskin should accept his punishment. He is guilty as hel_l and should admit it. Until he does, all the talk about even handidness is just a kindgarten level defence.

It's a common tactic now - catch yellows or Dems doing something fishy and then demand full exoneration for Thaksin or whoever you need to save, in the name of fairness. Look at Newin - the police chief going down for bloody Oct 7 crackdown, and a week later BJT proposed full amnesty for everyone involved in political protests in the past year. They mean they trade Patcharawat for letting airport thing go away.

See, it's not very important to them, just a bargaining chip.

Reds want political amnesty for coup makers in exchange for banned 111 freedom.

Until MCA mentioned it himself I didn't see any reference to Isanese as stupid in this thread. That was a trollish bait and we swallowed it.

I don't think reds will ever be reconciled with the rest of the country. Ever. So the strategy is to minimise their support base.

Also, reds DO have political representation, but there are signs that even some in PTP got fed up with their pointless campaigns. Even they realise that kicking the dead red horse will never bring them to power, they need to appeal to the rest of the country.

As a polical force both reds and PTP need to realise that they can't hang onto Thaksin coattails forever. But that's the thing - I don't think they are a political movement, just Thaksin fan club.

Ha ha, someone produces a forged record of Abhisit ordering a violent crackdown and people cry "freedom of speech".

I'm sure buckles can be designed so that a security guard won't notice hidden blades just by looking at it lying in the tray.

Fine, another theory about postponement - Three Stooges pissed of everyone one else in the red camp, including PTP MPs and members of Thaksin family. The petition was useless, numbers of people attending rallies have dropped (despite professed 7 million signatures), and there are allegations of them syphoning off Thaksin's money, too.

So, this time when they announced the rally no one else was told about beforehand, they met with lots of internal resistance.

It doesn't matter if he is the most popular politician. Popularity doesn't beat the law.

Maybe some othe facts speak to yourself and you can actually hear them, but it doesn't happen to me.

What's this, some kind of "voices in the head" attempt at sarcasm?

I don't dispute the 2001 background.I was talking - as I thought would have been obvious - about the 2007 elections which are dealt with in the Anfrel report.

It wasn't obvious at all, the whole reason that Anfrel was mentioned was because people were talking about 2001 elections results, and 2001 report was mentioned in the post with the link specifically. And it was mentioned again in some other post. Why do you assume that I know that you changed the subject to 2007 already? You didn't leave any pointers, either, not a single reference to any of the facts that everyone knows.

I don't know what's going on in your head, I'm not a mind reader.

No one disputes that PPP had the right to form a ruling coalition after 2007 elections. Of course their behaviour was later ruled as fraudulent and they were dissolved, and so in a sense their government was illegitimate from the start, but the court didn't declare any of their actions while in power as null and void. I think the law is designed like that more for convenience sake than for fairness - it would be a mess to apply "illegitimate" label retrospectively, but sitll, a thief is a thief from the moment he steals, he's just given benefit of presumed innocent until the court ruling. Now it's official - they were frauds in 2007 elections, they didn't become frauds just in December 2008.

It's pointless to argue if they could win without engaging in bribery of village heads, they just couldn't stop themselves, could they?

Al Jazeera running an item on censorship in Thailand

Yeah, as if they know anything about it.

But then again, as a global network they have to talk about a lot of stuff the haven't the foggiest idea about.

Coup still in place..

Which place? We are on the forth govenrment since the coup.

Incidentally the report makes it quite clear beyond any reasonable doubt that the result of the election confirmed the wish of the people of Thailand to see a government associated with Thaksin, notwithstanding the efforts of state agencies to thwart this.

That was 2001 report, for christsakes. No one ever disputed his victory back then, and in 2005, too, which was a real landslide, and no one disputed his right to form the government, and no state agencies tried to "thwart this", whatever that means.

No it wasn't, read the report referred to in the link provided.With due respect you are perhaps not the most appropriate person to comment on state agencies attempting to thwart democracy.The well documented facts speak for themselves.

In 2001 report Anfrel said that state officials were under control of political patrons and canvassers, not the other way around. It's on page 16, under "Partisan Conduct of Election Officers and Government Officials".

Maybe some othe facts speak to yourself and you can actually hear them, but it doesn't happen to me.

Incidentally the report makes it quite clear beyond any reasonable doubt that the result of the election confirmed the wish of the people of Thailand to see a government associated with Thaksin, notwithstanding the efforts of state agencies to thwart this.

That was 2001 report, for christsakes. No one ever disputed his victory back then, and in 2005, too, which was a real landslide, and no one disputed his right to form the government, and no state agencies tried to "thwart this", whatever that means.

It was faster before we had to take the belts off.

They don't mean to be truly creative. Just trying to create different versions of the same stuff, hoping it would sell better.

It's not that difficult, btw. You just need to put some extra effort, and that's where govt agency can provide initial support and infrastructure.

Think of computer animation. It was revolutionary ten years ago but by now every flick just the same as the next one. Same stories, same plots, same visual representation. With enough effort you can "create" endless versions of all kinds of cute characters. Cartoon Networks churns them up 24/7, it's not THAT difficult.

yes, that's right, two halves make a whole. and for reconciliation you need to understand the whole. that means understanding where these poor people are really coming from.

all you are doing now is trying to bulldoze them out of the way.

I think lots of people can provide you with explanations how the reds had turned out that way.

Being red doesn't have much to do with being poor per se.

Doesn't matter, it's a shrinking cult movement. They can still create troubles but won't make any contributions or, indeed, any difference to Thailand democratic, political, or economic development.

They have isolated themselves and have nothing to offer. And now they are also split. jatuporn and co have split not only from Jakrapob but also from Kwanchai and other regional leaders, allegedly over the control of Thaksin's money sent for demonstrations. They don't trust each other and everybody wants direct access to Thaksin and his funds.

And democracy??? You must be really naive that any of them really gives a dam_n about democracy. If they do, they think it's a dangerous thing not to be allowed even inside their organisation.

In the other thread on the same topic there's an article saying that they traced the clip to SC Asset via e-mail route, no mention of software signature on the clip itself. Two guys admitted they created the clip and sent to other folks at the company.

They also say they had no idea it was against the law. Duh.