Plus

He received payment for his services, he wasn't simply a guest there.

Not to mention that his show was called "Cook and complain", offering comments on everything under the sun.

What did it, in my view, was that he denied he was paid and produced forged documents as evidence.

Before 2000 elections Thaksin was gloating on TV how he smartly invested in Alpine Golf resort, buying it off Snoh.

Later it was discovered that the land on which it was built was donated to the temple by a dying woman, eventually it ended in Thaksin's hands.

Later it was discovered that it wasn't in Thaksin's hands at all - it was in his maid and driver's names.

Later it was discovered that Thaksin had no idea that for politicians hiding his assets through proxies was illegal, and he cried about honest mistake.

That did it for me.

And then there was a small stuff, like buying ITV in the run up to the elections, to ensure "proper" coverage, illegally investigating critical journalists (not by NCCC, and by Anti Money Laundering Office).

Buying Liverpool wasn't illegal, it was just shameless - he wanted to buy it with public money, not his own.

The death of Shipping Moo just as he was about to testify against Thaksin's company in a tax evasion case was blood chilling - this guy won't stop at nothing.

Forcing goverment loan to Burma with a condition that they use the money only on his company services was shameless.

Converting excise taxes that boosted his company market value by tens of billions of baht was there, too.

And the endless hubs hubs hubs hubs hubs.

Check pre 2005 thread in this very forum - the maniac was all over the place. All current cases, about a dozen of them, steam from pre-2005 offences, there's nothing new there. It's justuce finally served, not a result of propaganda campaign.

I have read Nick's account and I just can't see where the Red shirts turned from democracy heroes into animals (when Nick was himself was shouting at them).

I also can only chuckle when Nick stresses overwhelming local support for Reds at every opportunity and describes locals confronthing all over the town them as thugs and PAD guards.

Still, it doesn't come quite up to Nick's own standard of writing fluffy pieces about extreme violence, the standard set after Udon lynch mob.

I wonder how he'd cover pogroms and extermination of Jews if he was around in those days. I think he'd do extremely well.

Yes, Sonthi was Thaksin's friend, and so were half of his die hard opponents.No matter what triggered the change, they are enemies now.

Sorry, but when a personnal feud pushes a nation to the brink of civil war ... it matters !

Because it's what it is, a personnal feud ! People of all sides tried to use it to their personnal advantage, but at the end it's only a personnal feud, and for the good of Thailand, it has to stop !

When Sondhi was pushed off the air he started his "seminars" small, renting auditoriums at Thammasat. He didn't talk about the feud, he talked about corruption and it got people's attention. Soon he had to relocate to Lumpini park because so many people came to listen, and so many people came forward with information.

From that moment on the movement has lost all connection with "personal" feud, the movement had life on its own.

Don't try to dismiss it as people's push for personal advantage. It's lame.

That was the time when the red shirt movement was born, btw. It wasn't red at the time, of course, it was a bunch of government hired goons trying to disrupt Lumpini Park meetings. Reds have gone a long way since then, but the essense remains - trying to counteract genuine public uprising against corrupt politicians.

"I believe an amnesty would ease tensions, because the root cause of the turmoil is injustice inflicted by the 2006 coup," Peerapan said.

That's a nice way to sidestep the issue of Thaksin's corruption that kicked off mass protests that led to the coup. It didn't come out of the blue.

Provisions to be amended should include Article 237 on party dissolution and Article 190 on international agreements, Peerapan said.

Less punishment for electoral fraud, less scrutiny for backroom reals involving international relations. And they call it democracy.

...the mandate for independent organisations should be reviewed with an eye to enhancing democratic principles instead of working like a bureaucracy.

What does that mean? That independent bodies should be subjected to review by elected bodies they are supposed to oversee? That politicians should have control of the election commission and counter corruption commission?

Is there anything here proposed in the interests of the public and not politicians?

It looks like there's going to be a parliamentary revolution where politicians exonerate themselves from all previous and future sins, without any consult with the public. It would be a gentleman's agreement among thieves that robbed publid would be forced to follow.

That would bring reconciliation alright.

Obviously !

Now it's time to enlighten us to the issues with the current constitution that the PEOPLE want to resolve.

Would it be "MPs should not be allowed to vote according to their conscience"?

Would it be "politicians should have greater leeway and not subjected to judicial review and placed clearly outside the law"?

Would it be "party executives should not be punished for the actions of selected scapegoats"?

Official versions:

NLA bows out after 218 laws

The National Legislative Assembly met for the last time yesterday after passing 218 laws since it was appointed on October 11, 2006, by the military junta that deposed Thaksin Shinawatra as prime minister.

Listing the legislature's achievements, Speaker Meechai Ruchuphan said the assembly had held 95 sessions, answered more than 100 enquires and passed one emergency decree during its existence.

The assembly acknowledged 100 reports from its standing committees, he added.

...

March 1, 2008

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...newsid=30066931

Wallop lauds NLA, govt over performance

Published on January 20, 2008

National Legislative Assembly member and former senator Wallop Tangkananurak says the assembly and the military-appointed Cabinet were "industrious" in passing law, given their short tenures.

He said the dozens of laws passed by the assembly could be divided into groups.

The first was the seven principle and organic laws for people with disabilities. They formed a special division of the Social Development and Welfare Department to care for the disabled, and established a fund for organisations that care for them.

The assembly passed a law establishing child and youth councils at district, provincial and national levels. It will allow for the representation of young people in national issues and democracy.

Women's affairs saw a law to curb domestic violence, which prohibits the news media from inappropriately presenting news of domestic violence, and a law with a new definition of rape to cover both male and female victims.

The assembly amended and passed the Names Bill, allowing married women, as well as divorcees and widows, to choose whether to be addressed as Miss or Mrs, said Wallop.

Other important social law passed included labour-protection legislation, which was approved in December. It will come into force this year.

Its key content includes requirements for business operators hiring short-term workers to provide the same payment rates and welfare currently enjoyed by full-time employees.

It states employers who suspend business temporarily must pay workers at 75 per cent of their full rate, compared with the current 50 per cent.

It allows workers to terminate employment contracts within 30 days if employers move location, and still receive 100-per-cent payment. At present it is 50 per cent.

The Cabinet approved many social laws. A Cabinet resolution in December approved in principle a proposal allowing women civil servants and state-enterprise officials to attend religious instruction and rites for one to three months at retreats accredited by the Office of National Buddhism.

In November, the Cabinet approved in principle a decree for more tax incentives to private companies supporting education, by exempting them from certain income, value-added and specific-business taxes.

Those entitled to the exemptions, which will be announced in regulations, procedures and conditions set out by the Revenue Department, are companies that support scholarships, fund research and innovation or employ education personnel.

The donation of less than 50 rai of land to a private organisation for social

causes will be exempt from property-ownership transfer tax, while those supporting disabled people can receive up to Bt30,000 in tax rebates.

The Nation

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...newsid=30062816

I think it's simply impossible without a major change on Thaksin's part.

There's a flip flop Panlop, however...

I remember reading a fair assessment of Surayud's govt performance - it was very very impressive on some fronts, not PR friendly stuff but it set the country back on track, clearing Thaksin's era backlogs and debts and pushing for some very important legislation. NLA productivity was astonishing comparing to Samak era when nothing got done whatsoever. Some ministers, however were really in neutral gear, that was also true.

Yes, Sonthi was Thaksin's friend, and so were half of his die hard opponents.No matter what triggered the change, they are enemies now.

Their commitment over the years cleared away any doubts about their sincere believe in their "new" cause.

Also, the question on the referendum is bias.

It ask the people to vote

(A..) Yes, the newly proposed 2007 constitution or

(B..) No constitution at all (because the old one has already been thorn; also imply that military continue to rule, as no fresh election can be held without constitution).

You just made that up, didn't you.

It all started with Thaksin refusal to grant Sondhi a new TV license

Nice little theory. Repeat it great many times, belive in it, and it becomes your version of reality.

On the other hand, no one who observed Sondhi's campaigning during these past four years can doubt that man's sincerety and dedication to his goal, and no one would even think he has been doing it for some TV license either, no matter how it started.

This "Thaksin as bogeyman" approach is just what the army want. It's a welcome distraction from their incompetence and gerrymandering. Whilst people see them as protectors against Thaksin, they are not anylysing the situation on the ground correctly ie. this an ongoing coup that started in 2006, not a return to democracy.

At no time have they relinquished control, they have all their appointees in place ruling according to a constitution they made. A constitution that nobody outside their elite circles had any input into, nor one that anybody that is not of their ilk will will be able to influence.

<deleted> are you talking about? What military appointees? Whose incompetence? Are you aware that we had four cabinet changes since 2007 elections? What military appointees?

The goal of Democracy is not to isolate anybody. Extremists attract marginal votes from marginal supporters, thats democracy. After all the judgements, bans, disbanding of parties - but of course not the (anti)-Democratic party, the mass propaganda and bans on radio stations, etc, Thai Rak Thai in its third guise in as many years still attracts enough of the population to win a general election. If, big if mind, they are allowed to stand in a free election.

Let them win, by all means. Thaksin, however, is a fugitive form justice with another dozen lawsuits in the waiting. He can't run, he can't win, no matter how many people like him - he MUST NOT be placed above the law.

This, however, is not the first time where the alternative media has been a target of censorship, while the mainstream media remained untouched. Over 300 community and local radio stations were silenced by military operatives days after the powerful Thai army staged a coup in September 2006, ousting from power then-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Oh, another newbie. The first wave of sensorship was when Thaksin used carrots and sticks to co-opt local radios. He threatened to close them all down for being unconstitutional, them made them run advertising for local businesses, and that was the end of their independence.

Most Thai people do not know what happen to "the experience of Nepal". There is a news black-out in Thailand,

Care to back that up? I mean that news about "Nepal experience" were banned in Thailand.

Just because a billion chinese eat with chopsticks doesn't make it right.

Back in 2006 Thaksin was the only issue that forced hundreds of thousands of people on the streets to demand justice, that was the reality, not the belief that everything was alright.

One way to look at the current mess is that a lot of people think that the reality is only what they choose to believe in. Like, for example, if you don't want to remember the mess Thaksin created in 2006, it didn't happen. If you want to believe that red protests have nothing to do with Thaksin but only with people's desire for freedom and rights and democracy, then it is so.

The reality, however, can't be ignored, it tends to come back at you no matter what you believe in. Back in 2000 people believed that Thaksin was rich enough and was sacrificing his business career to serve the country, they believed that he cut corners here and there only to help country's progress. See how that turned out.

Now they want to believe that amnesty for crooked politicians will bring reconciliation, against all reason.

Fat chance, I say.

I don't know where Abhisit is going with this amnesty idea.

Simple, they just start to realize that everything was perfectly fine in 2006 before they start messing up with the government and the constitution ... No surprise they're also talking about amending the current constitution ...

It didn't look anywhere near fine in 2006.

No parliament, no senate, annuled elections, Election Commissioners jailed, interim government that overstayed it's allowed mandate by about three months, Thaksin backpedalling on his public promise to stand down, and people taking to the streets again.

Another point I made elsewhere already - reconciliation needs at least two parties, so far all we hear is red demands without any acknowledgement of any wrongdoing.

That will be some reconciliation if it goes through.

>>>

Maybe Abhisit is giving them the rope - two weeks to start making sense, and if they don't their proposals will be shredded to pieces. Reinstall 1997 const - that is legally impossible. Amnesty for selected group of people is also legally questionable, let alone the process for selecting who is to be included. It's all just nonsense.

Why don't they ask the people if they want to mess with consitution at all, and what they percieve as wrong with it, if they give a fuc_k.

What exactly do they want? Do they want monopoly on manipulating politics through proxies? Apparently if army has a say - it's a no no. When Thaksin approves cabinet appointments it's "true democracy".

And who do they want to reconcile with? So far it's only a list of red demands wihout a single consession to anyone or even naming the reconciliation counterpart.

It's not reconciliation, it's Empire strikes back. Disgraced politicians want to run roughshod over people as if nothing had happened - a recipe for another disaster.

There is a foreign news article somewhere here that says Thaksin has been red flagged by Interpol.

The source was the Nation, however, and I've never seen that in print, or on their website.

Reconciliation is another word for red victory. Having failed to spark a revolution, they want to achieve exactly the same goals under the name of reconciliation.

What exactly it would reconcile is anyone's guess.

Perhaps if they allow only politicians who sworn off Thaksin, perhaps that would be acceptable to yellows. Maybe that's the goal - to isolate the die hards.

You could get a decent PC for the price of 50 legit DVDs here. 50 DVDs would last you what? A couple of months?

You can easily download 50 movies off torrents in the same time frame, but that's not even the point - most Thais can't watch a movie without Thai subtitles, don't blame them.

Also, Thai made movies seem to make the majority of local releases, it varies from year to year, but everytime I show up at a cinema there are as many Thai offerings as Hollywood's.

Opposition Chief Whip Wittaya Buranasiri

I think I saw his name in connection with inciting riots and overthrow of the government, in some comments somewhere. Has he been formally charged?

Maybe moron yellow shirts don't exist?

When I see a perceptive analysis being rejected in toto

I have actually dissected Chang Nois demands point by point. Feel free to defend the need to restore 1997 consitution instead of reforming 2007. Actually would be nice to know what needs to be reformed exactly. So far it is all about being too strict on politicians, and its only politicians that want it reformed. Your average Somchai has no idea what's all the fuss about.

Feel free to argue how exonerating people who shamelessly engaged in worst cases of electoral fraud would improve the society.

Feel free to argue the issues.

So Chang Noi now joins the ranks of the BBC, Jonathan Head, Financial Times, Guardian, New York Times, New Mandala, Human Rights Watch etc who are ignorant, naive, tainted or bought off by Thaksin's PR people (ignoring the fact that Chris/Pasuk are probably the world's leading authorities on contemporary Thai politics).

Some of these people have proven themselves to be ignorant, naive, tainted or whatever, at least on some issues.

I have no idea why you put Chris/Pasuk in this pile. Baker actually wrote a very good paper for the UN on sufficiency economy.

While I wouldnt say Chang Noi has lost the plot

You are just being too soft on him (them).

>>>

They can do all those things - revert the constitution, issue amnesty etc. If there are enough people asking for it, it might actually work. For a while, at least.

However, the foundations of these moves are as questionable as Thaksin's motives back in 2000. You can live in this "make believe" world only for so long, then it blows right in your face.

Who knows, maybe next time around former reds and yellows would campaign together, but make no mistake - in the battle of people against their rulers the amnesty and the rest is a victory for politicians and defeat for the people. "Elites" and the rest have precious nothing to do with it, they've been dragged into this war against their will, when Thaksin decided they'd make better enemies than emerging middle classes.

But the reds represented more than Mr. Thaksin. Their quest for the will of the majority to shine in a genuine democracy was real and relentless.

So when will they kick out Thaksin's relatives from commanding positions in their party?

And are we supposed to believe that Chalerm is a real shine in a genuine democracy?

They should clean up their house first, before trying to reform the rest of the country.

I'm sorry, but gullibility, stupidity, and financial opportunism describe reds far better, dear Thittinan.

Embrace the proposal to return to the 1997 constitution with some fixes for its few well-known failings. Amnesty the 220 banned politicians. Don't try to stifle the red voice; listening is better. Punish the yellow on par with the red or others will do it for you. Stop worrying about the Nicaraguan special ambassador. Bring back a properly elected parliament and government as soon as possible. Accept the result and let the system work. Never again give the puppet players the support they don't deserve.

Chang Noi has totally lost the plot here.

- Embrace the proposal to return to the 1997 constitution with some fixes for its few well-known failings.

So you get something close to 2007 version. 90% of people didn't read anyway - why is it so important?

The proposal to reinstall 1997 consitution has no benefits except automatically exonerating Thaksin and his cronies.

Chang Noi is just being naive.

- Amnesty the 220 banned politicians.

People went to great lengths to make them pay for theis sins and Chang Noi thinks that excusing them would bring reconciliation. Right.

- Don't try to stifle the red voice; listening is better.

Red voice doesn't make it into national discource because it lacks any substance, devoid of any reason, lstripped of any contstructive proposals, and generally is an affront to one's intellegence.

- Punish the yellow on par with the red

Another childish idea straight from kindergarten sandbox - grow up and realise that you should punish people according to their crimes, there should be no profiling based on color.

- Stop worrying about the Nicaraguan special ambassador.

Pardon me? It was only a week since the worst violence Bangkok in nearly thirty years, and Chang Noi already tells us not to worry about it. That was exactly what we heard from "progressive" reds for ages, and see where it brought us - on a brink of a revolution. Yeah, "move on people, there's nothing to see here" - means a huge embarassment to the red cause, better forget about Thaksin's role in it.

- Bring back a properly elected parliament and government as soon as possible. Accept the result and let the system work

Would the April 2006 election qualify? It was the last election according to 1997 constitution, overruled by judiciary. Bring that back. It should give us a few fake parties but not to worry, as long as it's "true democracy".

"Bring back a properly elected parliament" - what is a properly elected parliament anyway? The current one is as "proper" as they come. Perhaps Chang Noi means that nobody important should be punished for vote buying, that would bring A LOT of reconciliation, yeah.

- Never again give the puppet players the support they don't deserve.

What? PTP won't be allowed to consult with Thaksin? Next PTP hopeful can't declare himself Thaksin's proxy? Or does it mean PTP shouldn't be allowed to run in the first place? Who's going to lead the campaign? Jatuporn?

That is the most ridiculous red demand ever.