Tapster

Jerry

Let's go climbing together.

I have 35 years of trad climbing experience behind me and I respect all that you say, but you gotta read the posts:

There's no commercial interest here at all. There just isn't!

Posters have found possible climbing areas and we're discussing how we might work towards making these available to the largest number of people. I don't see how there's anything commercial in that.

Now, bolting does cost something but we're looking at self-financing so, again, no commerce.

Our ethics are pure, unless you're a luddite from darkest England where bolts are a work of the devil.

I'm coming to live in Phuket with my lovely wife and my trad gear will be with me by end Feb 2015.

Please find a challenging trad line by then and I'd love to climb it with you.

We can leave really good trad lines alone but there will be bolting because some lines have no natural pro, some people have to learn on all sorts of styles of climb, some people will never want to climb trad.

Let's get together. There's enough rock out there for all of us.

Steve, you're right: top-roping first to find lines worthy of expensive bolting, and very much only with the permission and goodwill of the landowner, that goes without saying.

I didn't want to make my post even longer and we had covered getting permission earlier in the thread.

On this issue, it would be great if you long-term residents, with a greater understanding of the Thai way of doing things, would start to find out who owns what and to approach the landowners with a view to agreeing access.

I don't know how you'd want to approach this but, from our side you should know that there's no money to be made for either side in this project, certainly not to start with and probably never.

Any requirement on the part of the landowner to be paid for access to the land would almost certainly rule out the use of the crag for bolting development.

Anyway, I know I may be sounding a bit gung-ho about all this but I've done it before and if it's going to happen, negotiating access is key to the success of the project and everyone would benefit if one of you experienced guys would give a little time and expertise to talking to landowners, particularly of the Chalong cliff area that GFJ found and the area NE of Phuket Town that Hans told us about.

Any thoughts on this?

Cheers

Re: the competition wall at Saphan Hin.

It looks very small. Is that the actual one they're building?

Just for interest, and not saying 'mine's bigger than yours', but I've been to an international climbing competition and the sort of walls they'd build nowadays are in the pics below.

The idea is to make it so hard that ideally, only one person can get to the top and he/she is the winner. The one shown in OC's photo looks very easy, even if the holds were small and the moves very technical. There are no overhangs, for instance.

Anyway, how do you fancy trying one of these??

Greetings to all interested parties in the development of climbing in Phuket!

This is an update on the feasibility and costs of establishing bolted rock climbs in Phuket.

I need to start with a bit of history about the climbing in Southern Thailand.

I hope you're sitting comfortably!

There will be some metallurgy involved and some chemistry!!

Firstly, many thanks to Gforcejungypkt who started this thread, and more recently hansgruber and stevehaigh who have also spotted likely climbing spots.

It's now clear that Phuket has some climable rock and that the establishing of permanent bolted routes is easily possible.

This will provide a wonderful new resource for the island, for those who climb and those who would like to learn. No more will it be necessary to take a long boat ride to go climbing to areas where the climbing is excellent but often far too hard for a beginner.

Now, here's the metallurgy and chemistry..........the tropical and coastal conditions in this part of the world (in short, warm, wet and salty) present an almost unique challenge to safely protecting rock climbs.

The world-class climbing area in Krabi, centred around Tonsai Beach, near Ao Nang, is now almost entirely bolted (protected) using titanium hardware, rather than the stainless steel used in many other parts of the world.

Early in the history of climbing in Southern Thailand, stainless steel bolts and hardware were used. It was found that after a very short time in comparison to hardware in other parts of the world, the bolts corroded and in some well-documented cases, actually broke with just a climber’s body weight on them.

Clearly that was a potentially deadly failure in the metal and it was found that the tropical heat combined with the chemical composition of limestone and the salt from the nearby sea led to greatly accelerated corrosion and weakening of the bolts and the metal hardware in general, through the process of Stress Corrosion Cracking (please see explanatory link later in post).

Titanium was found to be the only material resistant to this mode of failure and nearly all the stainless steel bolts in Krabi have now been replaced with titanium.

Here are some pictures to go with my thousand words:

This is a diagram of a commonly-used steel expansion bolt, with a "hanger" into which one clips a carabiner with the rope in it, to protect the climber.

The expansion bolt is placed in a drilled 10 or 12mm hole and torqued to pull the wedge outwards and hold it in place.

In the unique corrosive conditions in Southern Thailand, we start to see this:

And after 3-4 years, even this. Would you want to clip into such a bolt?

So, along comes the titanium bolt. This is glued into a drilled hole, with epoxy resin. The lifespan of such a bolt is a minimum of twenty years and most will last much longer than that.

Seen next to the steel bolt which it replaces, it's easy to see which will last longer.

(The inset shows the appearance of the steel bolt after the nut and hanger were removed.)

I’ll leave you to read more on this if you would like to.

This is the website of the organization who is doing the “retro-bolting” in Krabi:

http://thaitaniumproject.com/

This article explains the process of stress corrosion cracking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_corrosion_cracking

This is the website of the only company in the world (hard to believe, but true) that produces titanium bolts and safety hardware for climbing. They are based in Sheffield, England.

http://www.titanclimbing.com/

The bottom line is that the stainless steel bolts and hardware that I can provide will not be suitable for protecting rock climbs in Phuket.

Naturally, titanium is more expensive than stainless steel and I have done the maths.

Based on the costs of equipment from Titan Climbing, not including shipping from the UK and various ancillary pieces of equipment required, such as drill bits, the approximate cost of setting up a 30-metre high rock climb, with seven bolts and two bolted anchors at the top would be 100 GBP or $160.

To set up top-roping anchors at the top of a climb, so that people could climb, supported by a rope above them all the way, would be cheaper, at 30 GBP or $50.

So there we are, the harsh reality is that if this is to work out, we will need money from somewhere.

I am very keen to get this project off the ground.

I am in contact with Martin, the boss of Titan Climbing and am working on a price for the hardware necessary to establish ten fully bolted climbs. The cost of all this will be in the region of 1000 GBP or $1,600.

I know it sounds like a lot, but if this is done right once, it will last for years.

I am willing to commit 300GBP ($475) to this project.

Will anybody else join me in securing their place in establishing the first rock climbs in the history of Phuket?

Any ideas on promoting the Phuket Bolting Fund?

Excellent work!

I've been in touch with two of the Krabi bolters and I'll be posting about this at greater length as soon as I get in front of my PC,...probably tomorrow.

How much do you want?

If it's a boat's-worth, I can't help you, sorry, but for only a small amount: Julapan Stationery just 200m (?) up Chao Far Road East from Chalong Circle has linseed oil for oil painting.

Any good?

@GFJ

Cool!

A Gri-Gri is the most important of those things, to save you seriously tired arms!

Re: protection for climbing wall....I've asked Steve, below. Anyway, the web has a lot of helpful info but it would be good to know what people in Phuket use.

Yes..beers and climbing wall discussions.

There are definitely more climbers out there in Phuket, so there could be some interest. There's lots to talk about. A climbing wall could be a labour of love or maybe could pay for itself. We'll have plenty of time to chat at leisure and see how we feel.

Re: bikes.......I bought one last time we were in Phuket, earlier this year. It's in storage and I can't wait to get back and ride it!

@SH

I'm loving your pool rock. Very stylish!

I think I might have seen it before on a real estate agent's photos when we were checking out properties last year. Have you bought your house recently? What a coincidence that would be!

Re: termites, do you have any advice on wood treatments. You can see my query in the post with the climbing wall photo. I'd be very grateful for any ideas you might have.

Cheers.

Hi Steve,

I think it's the same in any hobby or interest that you've done for a while: stuff just builds up, doesn't it?

A new version of something comes out, sometimes a whole new technique evolves, requiring more gear.

You know how it is.

The climbing gym idea is interesting. It's likely that a properly set up, safely-run climbing wall would do quite well in Phuket, especially on rainy days!

Open to the public? Trained instructors? Cafe/bar? ...... how big a vision do you have of this?

When my stuff arrives in Feb/March, I will have a small training wall which I'll be putting up outside the house. It is supported by large threaded bolts which go though the wall and has chains by which it can be raised or lowered to make it easier/harder. You'll be most welcome to give it a try. It's very useful for getting fitter. I'll need it!! I haven't been doing anything like as much climbing recently as I'd like and you can see from the attached photo that it's quite hard to use the wall at the moment!

May I ask your advice, please: I built the training wall from plywood with a softwood frame. It has been mounted inside a garage so far but our new house will only have space outside, where it should be quite dry under the eaves but the wood will be at the mercy of termites and other nasties.

What is the best thing to protect the wood from insects and will the same stuff make it waterproof as well??

Hi GFJ,

As I'm pretty snowed under with a massive to-do list leading up to our packing and leaving our house here, so I can't get everything out and photograph it, sorry.

However, I have everything one could possibly need for trad and sport climbing and for route setting.

Just to give you an idea:

• Two 50m static ropes, five or six dynamic climbing ropes.
  
• Two full racks of trad gear with many carabiners, quickdraws, slings, belay devices, etc.
  
• Three or four harnesses, three helmets, many pairs of rock shoes.
  
• Everything for cleaning and setting routes: ascenders, descenders, crowbars, brushes, Bosch 36v cordless drill, bolts, hangers, etc., etc.
  
• I have been collecting all this stuff for years. I haven't needed to buy any new gear in ages.....sadly, because I love new gear as much as the next guy!

What would be very useful for you to have is a Gri-Gri or other so-called "assisted belay device". You may already have one but if you don't, it's a great investment. When sport climbing you don't have to wear yourself out holding the rope tight while someone repeatedly falls off or rests for a long time. Also, if assisting with route setting, you don't have to hold the rope taut for hours as the guy cleans the route, or places bolts. You still have to hold the rope for safety but only loosely in your hand. The Gri-Gri pinches the rope and holds it tightly.

You'll be pleased to know that I normally clean and bolt without assistance. It takes a long time to prepare some routes and I don't like to think of someone having to hold on as I go up and down repeatedly, trying moves or finding the best bolt placements. Anyway, if I'm busy doing that, a willing volunteer could be cleaning another line and top-roping it with someone else.

A few other things you might find useful:

• Some slings, short and long, and a few screwgate carabiners, all for setting up top ropes and very useful for safety. If you can afford it, maybe 4 short slings and 4 long and four to six screwgates. The standard slings these days are 22kN, sewn slings, usually 1m or 2m circumference, and approx 1cm wide, made of Spectra or Dyneema. You can also get one very long sling. I have one of about 6m circumference, again useful for anchors that are a long way from the edge of the crag.
  
• A few ordinary carabiners, snap-gate or wire-gate, for backing up the screwgates for maximum redundancy and safety. Your rope protector will be very handy as well.
  
• Again, if you can afford it, and want to get into inspecting and cleaning routes, a 50 or 60m static rope, 10 or 11mm, and a Petzl ascender:
  
  http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Ascender-Reviews/Petzl-Ascension-Ascender
  
  The ascender will go with the Gri-Gri to allow you to go up and down the rope safely, and using a static rope will mean that you won't be bouncing up and down every time you move (approx 7% stretch in dynamic rope). Also you won't knacker your nice climbing rope with the teeth of the ascender. If you get an ascender you'll need even more gear.......two circular-cross-section screwgates for keeping the rope safely in the device. If you get one, you'll see what I mean.

There.......lots of lovely gear to be thinking about!!!

Cool, man!

I'm off back to my to-do list.

I'll hear from you soon. Good luck with the top-roping

mmmsweet, sweet GEAR!

There's nothing like the feeling of walking into the outdoor shop, totally justified in the buying of shiny new stuff!!

Congratulationsit all looks lovely!!!

??

That's great. There seems to be more and more possibilities opening up.

Good work. I liked your recent video as well. Was that a wheelie I saw as you left your house?

Looking forward to seeing all this rock!!!

@Stevehaigh

Oooo..........it just gets better and better!!

Roll on 2015!

mmmm............interesting!

It looks quite featureless and there's quite a lot of water seepage with moss and organic growth.

I guess we're just going to have to see what's climbable.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to it.

@Gforcejunkypkt

That main wall you mention is plenty high enough to bolt, especially as it looks somewhat steep and quite smooth in places, therefore lots of potential for falling off!!

Most ropes these days are 60m, with some being 70m but that's not very common.

If your rope's 60m, obviously that means you can climb up to a max of 30m with your man on the ground still holding the end of the rope when he lowers you off from the anchors at the top! Any higher and the rope would slip through the belay device towards the end of lowering-off, with hilarious results (not)!

In practice you'd want a greater margin of safety than that so a 20m wall is a decent pitch. On the higher parts of the wall and by the sound of it, at this other place in Phuket Town, we'd do a single-pitch climb to an obvious stopping point and maybe a second pitch from that, if the climbing was good, for those climbers with the skills to do a multi-pitch climb with abseil/rappel descent.

Sounds like lots of potential. Can't wait!

@KarenBravo

Dude, it's a choice.

The Nespresso machine produces coffee that has the crema and strength of a cafe-produced espresso.....at home!

Of course, I have a Bialetti espresso maker, like everyone else..........but the quality and strength is variable and for real cafe coffee, the Nespresso delivers.......at a price.

I don't have it often, so it's probably worth it.

er, that's 42THBbut it's still a lot!

Seabear, a great idea, cos 48 THB is a lot for a cup of coffee at home!

Cool, Hans, thanks.

I was wondering whether we'd have to sell our coffee maker before coming over.

Hi,

Has anyone seen these bad boys for sale in Phuket?

Many thanks.

Maybe you can try top-roping.....totally safe and you can be lowered off any time you don't feel good.

Thanks for the exploring idea. If we can get access permissions there's some exciting potential by the sound of it.

I'm in South Africa until late December but there are others who will take up the challenge in the meantime, I'm sure.

When I get to Phuket I'll be keen to get out and see what's around. If you've found some possible crags, maybe we could go together sometime.

Hans, that's awesome!

I've saved the spot.

It higher than the Chalong cliff, you reckon? That's brilliant. Higher = more moves to get to the top = better training for strength, better training for being comfortable at height. It's all good!

I'm getting excited about this. Training walls in Phuket, new climbers, re-born climbers, social shit, beer! You know it makes sense!

Do you climb?

Thanks for your comments! And very glad to hear that you'll be coming to Phuket, and even more so with your technical knowledge and gear While I have some decent climbing under my chalk bag belt it's been mostly bouldering and free soloing (more than a bit of which I probably shouldn't have been soloing ). So your experience will for sure be appreciated, and I have some ropes knowledgeable Thai friends & staff who can help as well -- assuming as you say we get proper permission from the land owner!

I'm off for an overseas program soon, but after returning it's high on the agenda to go find out who actually owns the land and then hopefully arranging a little meeting. One never knows if such a person will be cool or a dork, but I've got some good staff who are used to asking permission to use places for our corporate adventures, I'll certainly keep you up to date of any developments in this regard.

And no worries about 'egomaniac' dynamics, while I might be kind of a show-off I wouldn't consider myself an egomaniac -- anyway it's not my cliff, it's Mother Nature's! -- if it works out we get access I'm happy to work and share with any others who are interested and make a like effort.

We can PM further -- I sometimes get really busy with work and might not reply to posts or messages right away but certainly would try to do so as soon as I could. For now I leave you with another view of that nice little main wall -- nothing super high but I'm sure we could have some fun:

@Gforcejunkypkt

Thanks for the reply.

It sounds like you're well placed to find out about the owner and access, etc. That's great!

I'll get in touch nearer our move to Phuket and we'll see how things are looking then. Obviously I'll also see any other posts here.

Just to whet my appetite, how high is this main wall? It's so hard to tell from photos.

Cheers and have a good trip abroad

@Gforcejunkypkt

Cool, man!!

I'm really impressed by your explorations!

My wife and I are moving to Phuket in December. We spent Feb-September this year checking it out and we’re leaving South Africa which is a lovely, but troubled country, to live a safer (yes, only relatively!) and happier life in LOS.

I’ve been climbing for years and in Johannesburg where we live I have helped develop some new climbing areas. I have all the bolting gear (big cordless drill, etc., etc.) and experience in route setting.

All this stuff will arrive when our container does, some time in Feb/March 2015.

I’d love to be involved in a project to develop this area. I have been slightly disappointed that there’s no climbing in Phuket. It has no limestone as far as I know and so doesn’t have the fabulous formations they get in Krabi and to a lesser extent on the sea cliffs of Koh Yao Noi. Both the latter areas aren’t exactly a day trip from Phuket, well not there and back anyway, so having a climbing area in Phuket would be a great training resource, honing our skills for longer trips to the other areas.

Anyway, I’d like to be involved and I’m not an egomaniac. I would have no intention at all to steal your “Crag X”.

Before the area can be developed, and money spent on expensive bolts, anchors and other hardware, the owner would normally be contacted and access negotiated. As this is Thailand and things are probably very different regarding the expectations of landowners, permissions and even the dreaded dollar raising its head, I completely bow to local custom and those who have lived in LOS for some time.

Anyway, I think it sounds like a potentially very exciting addition to the activities in Phuket and I’ll be available either by private messages or by open discussion (which might be more interesting for all concerned) to chat about your discovery.

@chickenslegs:

The post grated against my happy spring-morning mellowness, clearly for reasons that are mine and which you don't share.

True, the post was exactly on topic but I've never been one for showing off and prefer to be understated. That's my type of British up-bringing.

I feel for retirees in Thailand who don't come close to the disposable income of the poster and, for one, I don't think it's necessary to mention one's accountant with all that implies about the possibly enviable financial position of the poster.

I just think it was over the top and it's OK for me to think that from where I'm standing, wherever that may be.

I have not defamed anyone, merely typed as I felt. The nature of the internet is often ephemeral. I'm sure my comment will be, too.

My involvement in this topic is now closed.

@Aussieroaming

You are too kind!!

The photos are shit, I'm afraid. There were only taken for shipping purposes.

When I bought the Buddha it took me a day of looking at acres of statues to find one with the right level of compassionate expression!!

Cheers!