Tapster

@Khun Jean

How would a usufruct make the position any more secure at the end of the first 30-year lease?

@Khun Jean

EXACTLY!!

I've been thinking about this.

I was just getting a bit more comfortable about the possibility that the second 30-year lease might actually happen but then no-one has mentioned how much such a renewal might cost!

If you have spent a good proportion of your life savings on 'buying' this house 30 years before, you are unlikely to be able to afford to pay the market price for it in order to renew the lease.

Presumably, there are no rules about how much one might be expected to pay??

If, after 30 years, you're back to square one and you might be asked to pay the market value of the house again, then there really is no 'buying' a house at all.

It's a lease for 30 years and the house will have no resale value (for the poor sod who bought it 30 years before) at the end of the 30 years because it basically goes up for sale again to whoever can afford the new lease!

mmmmm........worrying!

Hi Tapster

I can give you an agent’s answer on most of these points, although sceptics might say that is not especially useful (or even truthful!)

1. Generally true, the only exception I have heard about (but never experienced) if you are willing to invest 1 million plus USD you will be “ kindly” permitted to own up to one Rai (1600m2) of land in your own name. The company route (51% Thai owned) is coming under a lot of scrutiny at the moment, although still being used.

2. If a condominium block is registered and certified under The Condominium Act 49% of it can be registered in a non-Thai name directly. Generally speaking developers will charge an uplifted price for this. Perhaps around 1 MB extra on say a 6/7 MB purchase. But the order is, developer registers the block and then sells them. In reality 49% are what we call Foreign Freehold titles and 51% sold on leases, normally all to non-Thais.

3. With the exception in my point 1 above, a non-Thai can never own Land in his own name. So in this case a Thai entity (Thai citizen or company) will own the land that the house/villa/townhouse is built on, and then lease the building to you.

4. I don’t completely understand, but I think you mean the price you pay for a leasehold property. The important factor is that is the property is leasehold you are not buying it at all. You are merely leasing it for the period of the lease. After that time without a further lease it reverts to the freehold/landlord/person or company that you have leased it from.

5. There is much confusion on the point, and many people talk about selling properties with 90 year leases. I have been a UK agent for the last 25 years (in fact still have a company in NW London) so the idea of leasehold is not at all alien to us Brits in the same way it would be to say Americans. To be clear under Thai Law the maximum period of a lease for these kinds of properties is 30 years. However lawyers and agents (surely not) have come up with a way to extend the duration to a level that is generally more acceptable to us foreigners. In the UK for example we would normally have 99, 125 and 999 year leases. You may be offered a 90 year lease in Thailand but what that actually is is a thirty year lease plus two further contractual promises to extend the lease by the same 30 year period in 30 years time and again in 60 years time. So technically no laws have been broken, however it is clearly and attempt to circumnavigate the Law. A case has not yet been brought where a Landlord has refused to renew, has died or disappeared, or has been challenged by the Thai authorities. Most people take the view that they will worry in 30 years time. However the issue I have is when people come to my company to try to sell on the lease of a property that they have had for say 15 years, so really I am selling on a lease for 15 years and maybe the promise of it being extended after that time.

6. Correct, but also if the terms of the lease are breached it may also be possible to terminate it in theory.

I agree with you conclusion. But personally I would view Thailand like a “luxury good”, I wouldn’t view it as an investment, just as somewhere lovely to have a fulltime or holiday home. However if you buy a Condominium with a Foreign Freehold title it will (probably) increase in value, you can have it in your name and you can leave it to your family after death.

Regards

Stephen

PS If I can help at all, send me a PM, maybe I can sell you something (sorry I am an agent after all !!!!!!)

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for your detailed post above.

I'd like to take you up on point 4.

You said that you don't completely understand my point. This point is crucial to my understanding of buying property in Thailand.

I mean that when a foreigner buys a house in Thailand he is not buying the freehold. Under current law that isn't possible because foreigners can't own the land the house is built on. So, instead of truly buying the house, the foreigner is essentially leasing the land (and therefore essentially leasing the house) for 30 years, with the distant, but by no means certain possibility of leasing again for another thirty years after that.

Thus, I'm suggesting that, 'The so-called "sale price" and all the taxes, conveyancing fees, etc. associated with the purchase of such a property (as in 4, above) are in fact the cost of a 30-year lease on that property and no more'....that there is in fact, no 'buying' involved.

I am suggesting that no foreigner in Thailand can own a house and have the security of ownership available in the UK. Because the land is Thai-owned, it is always only leased to the foreigner and therefore the house is essentially only leased as it's ownership is dependant in renewal of the lease after 30 years.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that (buying a house in Thailand) is a 'luxury good' rather than an investment and I'm agreeing and suggesting that one might usefully look at it as a very long-term rental with the possibility of some security after 30 years but nothing guaranteed.

Instead of worrying if the property will go up in value, one might take heart from the fact that the 'monthly rental' (sale price and fees, etc...divided by the number of months in 30 years) is much lower than 30-years'-worth of monthly rentals at market rates and it's not affected by inflation.

If you have time, I'd really like your opinion on this, please, and on the further points I made above, which are:

If you own a house on this '30-year lease' and you want to sell it after ten years, are you selling only a 20-year lease or will the owner of the land start another 30-year lease with the new owner?

There seems to be a form of co-ownership. If a couple could co-own a property would this not allow the surviving spouse to continue with the lease? Does anyone know anything about this?

Co-ownership is described at the bottom of the page in this link:

http://www.thailandl...-ownership#1356

Many thanks

P.S. I had a Space Hopper!

Many thanks to all contributors!!

@Khun Jean:

I can't get a cigarette paper between the definition of Usufruct and Superficies!

It looks like Usufruct applies only to a building on the land and Superfices can apply to a building or anything else on the land (eg. chicken farm/rubber plantation).

If I have it right, these property rights confer greater security than an agreement in a contract to allow a foreign spouse to inherit the remaining term of the lease, because they aren't ended by the death of the landowner or the sale of the land, but only by the death of the 'lessee' of the property.

But still, neither agreement can be inherited by a foreign spouse, it seems, so there's no greater security there.

Please fill in the blanks if I'm missing something important.

@everyone:

If you own a house on this 30-year lease and you want to sell it after ten years, are you selling only a 20-year lease or will the owner of the land start another 30-year lease with the new owner?

There seems to be a form of co-ownership. If a couple could co-own a property would this not allow the surviving spouse to continue with the lease. Does anyone know anything about this?

Co-ownership is described at the bottom of the page in this link:

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-real-estate-law/1298-1366-real-estate-rights-and-ownership#1356

Thank you very much, Archie, I'll definitely check it out.

By the way, I met your friend, Penelope Insula, the other day!!

:0)

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@ Archie............

Thanks, I have a friend in Phuket who will vouch for me, so maybe I'll be lucky!

Is the branch you mention (near Robinsons) this one:

Cool, BShifty, I'll certainly give it a try when I'm in Phuket.

I could let my wife do the talking, but only if they speak Afrikaans!

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Thanks, LIK, you are absolutely correct.

It's sounding like I won't be able to open an account unless I'm living in Thailand with a proper visa and an address.

When I move to Phuket, I'll just have to arrive armed with lots of cash until I can get an account up and running, is that it?

Cheers

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@IrishIvan

Your suggestion re: a homemade rental book is cool, but what if they want to send me paperwork and a cheque card to the 'karaoke bar'. Surely I'm going to need a real address, either in Thailand or at home in Johannesburg?

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Hi Simon,

I haven't been to a branch yet.

I'm in Johannesburg, planning to move to Phuket.

(Believe me, it can't be worse than South Africa. I bet you don't get shot dead for a mobile phone!)

Anyway, earlier in this thread KBank was mentioned as one where I could probably open an account with only a passport and a tourist visa. I went on their website and they specify needing a house registration (yellow/blue book?) as well.

I'm coming to Phuket for a week in November and I'd like to open a bank account to have somewhere to transfer funds in the future.

Any suggestions will be gratefully received, thanks!

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Hi,

I don't know if anyone will see this post as the last one was in May!!

BUT......the Kasikorn bank needs a 'copy of House Registration' for opening a bank account.

I'd like to open an account when I visit on a tourist visa in November but what is this 'house registration', please.

Cheers

Gentlemen, thank you very much.

I needed to get it in stone, for the dim-witted, because quite a lot rests on this, in planning my coming to Thailand.

I have no more questions.

Cheers.

Hi thaiexpat21,

Thanks for your reply.

Just to be completely clear, is the answer to my question, "could you do a visa run just before the visa's expiry and essentially get almost another year to stay?", yes or no?

Cheers

I'm finding this topic really useful. Thanks everyone!

I'm clear on the O-A visa so far: you can enter Thailand any time after the issue date, then leave and re-enter again before the 'enter before' date, getting a new one year entry from that re-entry date.

That's a great idea and (if I understand it correctly) means that, to make the most of this, you should arrange to enter Thailand as soon after the date of issue of your O-A visa and leave and re-enter again as near to the 'enter before' date as possible, thus getting nearly two years from your visa.

My query is this:

During the one-year validity of your O-A visa (12 months, starting from the last re-entry before the 'enter before' date??), do you get a new one year entry every time you leave and re-enter Thailand?

Therefore, could you do a visa run just before the visa's expiry and essentially get almost another year to stay? Now, that really would sound too good to be true!

Hi,

I haven't read all the posts because I haven't time, but has anyone mentioned rock climbing?

If you're considering training for muay thai you probably are at least fairly fit. Climbing is just taking off in Phuket. The climbers are very friendly and welcoming. You'd get lots of help learning.

Climbing is low impact but keeps you fit and slim because, if you get to like it, you may not want a spare tyre so that you can climb better. It's win-win, really!

I've been in touch with a guy who seems to be a prime mover in the scene. If you want to pm me I can give you his details.

I'm a keen climber and developer of climbing areas. My wife and I are in the first stages of planning to move to Phuket for the natural beauty and the climbing and diving opportunities that the area offers. Have you tried diving?

Just one quick question from me:

Do you think the outdoor life I'm hoping for is possible in Phuket? My wife and I are experienced travellers and don't expect it to be a paradise in all areas! I've been to Thailand five times and I know how some of it will not be very life-enhancing!!

All the best with your getting-out-more. It sounds like you might soon be begging for some time at home - to recover!

Cheers,

Dave