Tingtau

Disgusting!!!!   Absolutely disgusting!!!!  All that I can say that, if that if the officer was a member of MY family, that piece of disgusting cowardly scum would have to live the remainder of his life looking over his shoulder for my vengeance!!!  I would not rest until he was maggot food!!  Thailand......you treat your ordinary citizens no better than the animals you profess to protect!!!!  Shame!!!  

21 hours ago, Phuketshrew said:

I seem to remember that there was a directive some time ago to stop these re-enactments. Why are they still doing them?

I have the same recollection and I also have always wondered what bloody purpose is served by an accused person being made to play "actor" and give alleged evidence against him/herself!!  I wonder what happens if the accused refuses to take part.....I know that I would certainly refuse to do so!!! Would I be beaten and end up "hanging myself"?? I suppose this practice has its roots in some legitimate olden day practice, but....come on!!!!

I believe that the current multitude of Facebook posts which are purporting that Thaksin Shinawatra is touting the Bitcoin Billionaire investment, is falsely using his name and photograph to entice residents of Thailand to invest in this cryptocurrency fad!  I almost bit on it myself until I decided to do a little checking.  First of all here are two of the posts: https://smuttyxminxes.com/product/power/?fbclid=IwAR1Z90YnGiunhsqn89k0YaHDCEQ4eJh7yjC6uLin9ucCP-fv5Khfwy2-270                                                 https://vrindossa.com/avert

                                                                      http://defenseboard.today/rigged-and-robbed-thaksin-shinawatra-says-thai-elections-werent-free-or-fair/?fbclid=IwAR0a1IdfWru1i6ZoCaNyLIM7P8FwxBqgpL6tkQpi7SB1gOOu4heyqbSMWR8

Each one of those posts contains false information.  If I were Thaksin Shinawatra and was aware of these posts, I would be DEMANDING their removal and possibly prosecution for offences relating to the false and unauthorized use of my name!!  

As I say, I ALMOST invested in this scheme......but after realizing the falsity of the advertising I am very loathe to do so inasmuch as, if the people who want my investment are this deceitful, why would I trust them to have ANY of my money!

Thoughts or information re this are welcome!

2 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

This filthy poison should be either banned of priced at 500 baht a packet

If they follow the example of Canada,  cigarettes WILL in the not to distant future be your 500 baht a pack!! Face it!! 60 baht (current price in typical small Thai store) for a 20 pack of SMS cigarettes, is easily affordable for the Thai teen!  If one doesn't get addicted as a youth, the chances of becoming an addict are slim to nil!!  Low prices and peer pressure plus society friendly atmosphere are what makes an addict!  Tobacco companies have always known this and, as long as the government whistled with them, the tobacco companies attempted to "get the kid hooked young", EVEN THOUGH THEY KNEW full well how poisonous their product was!! Once they could get a young teenager addicted, they knew that they had a customer for life!! 

18 hours ago, jvs said:

No it is not.Welcome to Thailand,land of many laws and crackdowns but never for long.

Hey!!  Go to Canada.....only place one can smoke for years now is outdoors or in your own home and that's if you don't have children!!  It's amazing how much cleaner the air smells when it isn't overladen with second hand tobacco smoke!  

3 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

The world has gone mad. Should I look forward to plain packaging on the much more hazardous for health alcohol containers? Then we can roll the plain packaging out to sugar containing soft drinks, then any food containing fats etc etc. Should never let the loons get a foot in the door, it never ends there.

Awww!!! Poor fellow.....you need pretty pictures on your cancer sticks, do you?  And re your comment concerning "much more hazardous for health alcohol containers"! ??? Really!!!  Much more hazardous to health??  Many of my friends and some family members have died from the effects of smoking tobacco, but I know of only one friend who died from alcohol abuse!!  Alcohol, in my experience, while a potentially hazardous to health commodity, has no where near the degree of hazardousness that tobacco presents!!!  And plain packaging on my beer products wouldn't matter a toss to me!!!  Wrap 'em all up in plain packaging...suit me fine!!!

Can anyone tell me just exactly what is a NON (O-A) visa.  I am on a Marriage Visa and will be renewing very soon......does anyone know if a NON (O-A) visa includes a Marriage Visa? 

"....with wounds on his back. A medical examination at Patong Hospital revealed that his right arm was broken and right shoulder fractured, said police".   

Okay. the only questionable, for me, comment by the "reporter" is 'wounds to his back"!  Falling from a fourth story balcony could undoubtedly  easily result in AT LEAST a broken right arm and right shoulder"!  But what is the nature of these "wounds to his back"?   Landing on his back would presumably result in some form of "wounds to the back"!  But, without any further description of those wounds, any thoughts as to the cause of those "wounds" is mere speculation!!   

I would like to comment, though, on the height of the average apartment balcony walls in Thailand, which from experience is approx. 30 inches...perhaps in some cases as much as 36 inches but never more.  It has been my feeling as 6'1 person, that a 30 - 36" retaining wall is TOTALLY inadequate!!  A minimum of 40 inches, imo, should be mandated in a country that values its "farang" tourist industry!   BUT, then again..."them's the risks we taller than the average Thai, take, I guess" if using those balconies.......especially after a few drinks!!  And I have lived in countries where the safety of the person is a far lesser consideration than here in Thailand!!!

On 2/8/2016 at 8:01 AM, JohnC said:

I buy my Meds online from a pharmacy in Bangkok, with one exception everything was cheaper than any of my local pharmacies in Pattaya. I normally order three months supplies which cost 100 baht for ems and are usually received the next day, smaller package cost 50 baht by ems. Initially I e mailed them and asked for the prices so I could compare which they did by return e mail so you can check them out. I don't think I can post their e mail address so I have seen you a PM.

I can understand the local Thai people being upset, even furious, at something which they understand from their upbringing to be a sacrilege.  And I would agree with them being furious with the "farang" for having committed such a sacrilege.....if there were evidence to indicate that such an awareness were made known to this 'farang'.  In fact, we are advised that the sign which described this as being a "sacred Samui landmark" had been allowed to fall into such as state of disrepair, that a visitor unless verbally advised, would not have any way of being aware of such being the case.  So, rather than get all bent out of shape over the 'farang" unknowingly committing an act of perceived sacrilege, get bent out of shape over the officials that failed to maintain the sign that would have advised the "farang" that climbing was a forbidden act!!  In a "tourist funded" country, I should think that sensible members of government would make every effort to ensure that the visitor can be properly informed.  Yes, the visitor has a duty to make enquiries about the various customs prior to and during their visit, but surely it would be unreasonable to expect that one could anticipate visiting such a place.  Without such anticipation, how is it reasonable to expect the visitor to KNOW that such a place is off-limits!! No, I know that some visitors may be louts, but where there is a clear dereliction such as here, on the part of the Tourist Authority to ensure that proper signage is maintained, they are at fault, not the tourist climbing what is....just an inviting challenge to climb!!

Americans that go to other countries and point out, and/or try to change things that are common practice or part of a culture in another country that they don't like, can't stomach, need to move on, or just go back to the U.S. and work on its many serious problems. There's plenty of them. JFK said, 'We cannot and will not become the policemen of the world.' So yes, voice your opinion then drop it. Unless, you get serious support from the local authorities. I imagine, a Thai abusing his wife/girlfriend or employers abusing employees won't get as much attention as something that effects tourism, like polluted beach water, garbage, aggressive LB's, overcharging taxis/baht buses, etc. Only over the last 15 years has wife/girlfriend abuse in the U.S. has been somewhat addressed. Now, usually, they take both parties to jail to stop repeat offenders from playing the system. I knew a Vietnamese guy whose neighbors saw him chase his wife around the outside of their house with a knife in his hand. That was around ten years ago. He was never charged or jailed. Maybe because, he had a well known local sponsor that brought his family from Vietnam, through a Thailand refugee camp. Another time, he was stopped for speeding, yelled, screamed, swore at the cop, ripped up the ticket, threw it out the window and drove off. Employers abusing employee's still happens a lot in the U.S., usually not physical, because that leave marks and bruises, preferring personal threats, unwanted sexual advances, etc, because that is much harder to prove in court. People today in the U.S. really fear losing their jobs and not finding another so they put up with a lot of employer abuse. Again, yes, the commercial was in poor taste, but that's all, not a earth shattering moment.

Excuse me, oh 'citizen of the world".... what is the justification for this rant of yours about "Americans'?? Are you of the belief that the term 'farang" only refers to "Americans" and therefore only Americans find fault with the ad? Or are you just jumping off your world turnip wagon onto a anti-US wagon because it seems fashionable to bash the US at every opportunity. News flash for you.....many of us, myself included, who found this ad distasteful and expressed our distaste hail from countries other than the US!! You may deem it "common practice" in Thailand for employers to treat their employees as shown in this ad, but I suggest that such activity while common in the past among the HiSos, is a behaviour that becoming less and less acceptable in the eyes of Thai society!

Many farangs are outraged that anyone in the world lives without the PC values and inhibitions they learned in their home countries.

There is a place where people live and think exactly like you would like them to live and think.

I can draw them a map to the airport if it helps!

So you're saying that it's part of Thai culture to abuse maids? It's okay and if you don't like it go home?

Just wanted to clear that up.

Yes, rkidlad.....it is so refreshing to read comments such as willyumiii in which he criticizes "farangs" for finding fault with violence toward others, especially towards persons who cannot retaliate due to either physical frailty or, as in this case, fear of losing ones position!! Why does he find fault.....because he is of the belief that it IS politically correct for 'servants" to be cuffed around by their employer if displeasure is given. And, If I understand wee willyumiii, no matter what activity that takes place in Thailand, because I was not born here, I should button my lip and say FIDO. (In case, that acronym is unfamiliar to any reader it simply means "<deleted> it, Drive on"...i.e. ignore) To willyumiii, I say...imo, it is one thing to know, understand and respect a country's cultural ways, but it is quite another to just sit back and say nothing when one sees that a criminal act is being committed or simulated as in the Lotus Tesco advert.

It is against the law in Thailand to commit an assault upon another person, and what is shown in the video is a simulated assault...which, if allowed to go unchallenged, would give the naive viewer the impression of it being okay! True, many Thais may have been raised since childhood to "do as they are told" when the telling comes from genuine "persons in authority" which largely has meant their elders, their teachers and the police. And yes, while there appears to be a lessening of this, corporal punishment is a part of life for the Thai child, more in the school....certain schools...than the home from my experience. If administered fairly and judiciously, this may account for the respect that one sees given by Thais in general to their elders....a part of Thai culture that I would be loathe to see disappear! IF the "person in authority" is not resorting to outright criminal behaviour in the manner of "telling", I would :"keep my opinions to myself" but to the "willyumiii"s pf this world, I suggest that those who FAIL to criticize criminal behaviour in any society, do that society a disfavour!

Wow...

My Thai son is 15 and 2 meters tall.

He got kick out of school at 12 for stealing.

I brought him to Patong to live with us. He stole gold, money, and money from our business.

He is now on his last leg of Thai justice for motorcycle thief and brandishing a single shot gun in Isaan.

I kicked him out 7 times. He is now with us again. Number 8. You know Thai mothers. The kids are babies forever.

My son has not harmed or injured anyone.

This MF clearly should represent Thai justice.

Same like América. Trump wants equal measure. Swift justice.

As a famous movie states: You can't handle the truth.

You say that your son has not "harmed or injured anyone"..but advise that he (it appears you are saying) has been convicted of stealing a motorcycle AND brandishing a shotgun!!!!" Brandishing a shotgun and firing a shotgun differ only by whatever the intention of the "brandisher" at the moment might be, and the required pressure on the trigger might be.....in other words, worthy of almost no distinction in a court of law!! It sounds as though your son differs only from the subject of this post by reason of the fact that he has not YET pulled the trigger. Being a father of four sons who all have turned out well, I feel sad for you and send out wishes for a change in your son's mental outlook! Wishes not only motivated by compassion for being a father like myself, but also motivated by a concern for what your son, should he not "see the light" might end up doing. The subject of this post is clearly, imo, beyond redemption and in the vernacular of the "wild west" needs to be put down like a rabid dog"! I will pray that your son never gets to this stage!!!

Jannert, you raise a very good point!! Of course, I was and am extremely sympathetic to the young girl who is the victim of the piece of trash, but I was too angry with the thug to think about querying her condition. I do hope that she is receiving all necessary treatment and care, but despite having lived in Thailand for more than four years, I do not know what quality of treatment she will receive. As the innocent victim of a crime, I would hope that there is some provision in the Thai system for her to receive all necessary treatment, including psychological assistance, But on second thought, I suppose that it is quite possible that such a provision has not been enacted. If anyone can advise on this, it would be greatly appreciated. Like Jannert, I cannot see standing by and letting this child be a victim to the failure of the Thai government to properly address situations involving innocent "victims of crime"!! I hope to learn that Thailand has addressed this issue and that provisions have been made for her to receive every and all necessary treatment!!

Ok, every body who has posted on this subject has been concerned about the treatment that may or may not,should or should not be given to this obviously vicious, irresponsible, and probably mentally retarded scum. But few have expressed concern for this little girl who will be scarred for life.

Does anyone know the extent of her injuries?

Given the level of medical help this poor child will receive unless her parents or grand parents are wealthy and can pay for specialist treatment she will be looked upon in Thai and many other societies as trash,cast aside to become an easy target for those types who look for these young girls/woman who are blighted through no fault of there own,and who quickly turn them into the village bike.
So on behalf of this little innocent and because non in her family will have money,may I ask if there is anyone in T/V who know how to set up a crowd fund ? So that she may at least have a chance.

I would do this myself but quite apart from not being computer literate enough, I am not a member of Facebook or any other such organisations.

So if there is anyone out there who can set one up and administer it, let's find out what this child needs medically and go for it.

Brownie points are not an issue here, but they will certainly be forthcoming to all farangs if we can be seen to help.

Thanks for listening people and I hope someone can do something.

I am not sure how this post will go down because for some reason non of my posts have a "like this " button and I do not know how to get one, so I can not monitor or follow anything.

I normally try and be moderate in my views here and not jump to conclusions or try and be judge, jury and executioner all in one but in this situation Im afraid I just cant see any redemption for someone who would brandish let alone use a samurai sword like this guy and from the reports, has had a life that has had significant involvement with crime....all at the tender age of 19 . I just cant see the point of trying to redeem this guy via a jail term .. yes yes I know all the social rights and nancy social workers out there will say he has rights ..... yes i agree and the public have rights as well, rights to not have thugs riding around the streets with samurai swords.... offer him a choice 30 years hard labour with no parole or self administered euthanasia....

He is 19 now....make the 30 years hard labour 50 and I will agree with your comment completely!!

But you farrang, you don't understand Thai people and Thai culture.

TIT

I think that, "sic farrang" or not, I DO have some understanding. I have lived in Thailand now for over four years and am married to a Thai lady. We live in her home village and I have NEVER seen anybody physically assault another person in this village. Granted, these are 'ordinary" hardworking villagers who don't have "maids", but they do have weaker persons, such as the elders and children,.who easily could be assaulted! This may be common in the "hi-so" group...I have no idea unless the "soaps" truly reflect "hi-so"s, but I have not seen such behaviour in the "NON hi-so"s of Thailand! Also....the abuse of persons of lesser status is certainly not restricted to Thailand either....so to suggest that this is an issue which "you farrang don't undertand Thai people and Thai culture" is simply not fair to the general population of Thailand nor does it acknowledge that the abuse of "domestics" is still a problem in "farrangland" to this day! See - https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/31/uk-migrant-domestic-workers-face-serious-abuse and https://www.hrw.org/topic/womens-rights/domestic-workers Where ever and whoever sees material such as depicted in Tesco's advertisement is to be congratulated for registering their disapproval...eventually even the "farrangs" who commit such acts will "get it"!!

She didn't even slap her. Her hand was actually about 6 inches from her face. Farangs with nothing better to do. I think they may be getting upset with all the news about Thais being outraged about this and that and don't want to be outdone.

Get a life people, It's a commercial.

I've seen much worse in commercials and programs in various other countries.

As has been pointed out by several, including myself in a response to another poster, this is a film and, as such is suggesting that it is acceptable (in hi-so society at least) to commit an assault upon another person! The fact that the one actor didn't actually hit the other actor has no bearing...it is the implied act that matters!! If the actors had been a little more realistic so that you couldn't actually tell whether the slap had connected, would you then have been offended? Or do you think it of little importance what the media presents as acceptable behaviour?

Next !!!Why would anybody get upset?

You can see her hand never touched the girl.

Too many farangs with nothing to do but complain.

.

Ah, the irony...

Agree totally, Bluespunk!! @colinneil Of course the "actor" didn't actually make contact with her "victim"..it's a film...duhh!!!! When you see someone being shot in a movie, do you suppose that they were actually shot...of course not!! So, why offer this as though it makes a difference?? The fact being deplored is that the advert treats the violence as if it is to be expected and accepted. I am married to a Thai lady and live in her home village...I have never seen anyone act violently towards anyone else, no matter what the status of the two might be!! And good on those who castigated Tesco for presenting such a video!

Whether such violence takes place with the "hi-so" members of Thailand (if one has a maid, I think it is fair to assume that involves the "hi-so" group), Tesco is wrong to present it in this fashion! Now, if they showed that "hi-so" (rhymes with witch) being arrested for assault and stuck in jail with the"commoners" for a few days, that would be a good advert!!! And then I would happily read "โอ้!! ดีมาก! ตอนนี้ คุณไฮโซ" "ไม่เป็นไร" (Oh, excellent!! Now, Ms Hi-So...never mind, it's okay!!)

Racially?

Please be so kind to explain to me, and others, the racial difference between Thai and Burmese?

It would appear that the use of the word in this context is perfectly correct due to their difference in ethnicity! Please see - http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/91084/is-there-a-word-similar-to-racism-when-referring-to-an-ethnic-group-rather-tha I suppose a pedant might insist on using ethnophobic, ethnophobically and ethnophobism, but personally I think racist covers the attitude of far too many Thais toward a Burmese or Myranmaran perfectly well!

The customers looked like indian tourists….maybe they specifically asked for a tuk tuk as it was cheaper...

What an ignorant and stupid comment to make!!

The customers looked like indian tourists….maybe they specifically asked for a tuk tuk as it was cheaper...

What a stupid comment !!!

Actually, rockin Robin, I vaguely remember there being pictures of them at the border.

Mon was cleared on 25th September

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe

As for the phone according to the BP (which I cant link to ), the police explained how they found the phone , evidently after their arrest the police asked about the phone and the Burmese told them it was left with a friend

One of the Burmese was arrested on a ferry , supposedly going to a new job

Greenchair I do know you have changed your mind and feel very upset,

I dont know if they are guilty or innocent but one of the stumbling blocks for me is that I fail to understand how MM did not retrieve his guitar.

There as been very little told with regards MM testimony yet it seems so crucial

"The investigation into the murder of two British backpackers on Koh Tao was, from the very start, a muddled affair"

Specially muddled by people airing uninformed opinions and the press happily playing along. Such as this:

"Irked government officials claimed the reaction was all a conspiracy to discredit the Royal Thai Police. It would be wonderful if it could be so easily imagined away."

That there are groups of people working to discredit the Koh Tao police investigation is a fact, they even set FB pages and websites for that purpose.

"The Koh Tao investigation was compromised from the beginning, when police failed to properly seal off the crime scene. A rumour that the attack was carried out by someone linked to influential figures on the island was summarily dismissed and investigators quickly focused on the migrant community, refusing to even contemplate the possibility that Thais might have been involved."

Except that they did name and question said influential figures, Thais and foreigners besides migrant workers. So, false again... what was that about muddled things?

"Respected forensic scientist Pornthip Rojanasunand, who has clashed with law-enforcement officials in the past, was denied access to the investigators' findings."

The defense was allowed to retest the evidence, Pornthip worked on it and reviewed the documentation. On top of that it was the defense that declined to retest the main DNA evidence, after asking for it.

"More doubts were raised over the failure to run comparative DNA tests the female victim's clothing and a hoe that was the purported murder weapon. Pornthip, acting on behalf of the defendants, conducted that test and found that the DNA on the hoe did not match that of the accused."

How about adding the factual nuance to that statement, for the sake of unmuddlying things? The initial police analysis found DNA from Witheridge on the hoe, Pornthip's analysis found also DNA from David Miller, and a third partial profile that matched 25% of the markers from one of the Burmese.

"The court presumably attached more credence to prosecution testimony that the suspects' semen was found on the female victim's body, even though analysis of the DNA samples of three people was, in the view of other witnesses, done too hastily."

Why wouldn't the judge attach more credence to people presenting actual evidence against biased opinions from the defense?

"Most troubling of all for the police case - and for the police force's reputation - is the fact the defendants, having withdrawn their confessions once a lawyer was belatedly provided, claimed they had admitted to the crime after being tortured. The court did not even take this point into consideration."

The court did take that into consideration, as anyone that reads the court ruling can see for themselves; so again muddle muddle muddle. The judge decided that there was no evidence of torture, in any case it's all moot since the ruling did not use the confessions to reach a decision(all of them, including to the Human Rights Commision, Myanmar embassy officials and other people)

"In spite of these many doubts and shortcomings, the national police chief, Pol Gen Jakthip Chaijinda, had the audacity to suggest that an unnamed political group had instigated the ensuing protests to discredit his men."

The very politically involved Ma Ba Tha sect that has been organizing the largest protests.

"The simple answer is that none of the other cases caught the interest of the foreign press, which stemmed from the fact that the victims in this murder were citizens of Britain, where the news media are not only highly opinionated but also alert to the hazards of Thai tourism."

This was not the first time Burmese murdered foreigners in Thailand, the difference is that in this case the defense team made every effort to, in their own words, have the case judged on the court of public opinion. Perhaps the should had focused on the court of law instead.

"Moreover, the story evoked an all-too-common narrative - defenceless migrant workers becoming ready scapegoats in criminal probes and the victims of the whims of the rich and powerful."

Bingo, it's all about the narrative, not what the facts dictate.

AlecG I have tried to answer your lengthy defence of the prosecution's case in as brief a fashion as possible...i.e. responding to your points with my response immediately following each point you make. I make no judgement nor do I intentionally criticize the Thai Court judge in any way for the decision made. It's too bad that only those who were allowed into the courtroom were in a position to judge the veracity of a witness nor, since no transcript of the proceedings is(to my knowledge) available to the public to know exactly what any witness actually stated, word for word!! This absence leads to the many questions which the public has and must remain unanswered. Transparency....no!! That's is the only opinion of which I feel no criticism can be levied against me!!

"Irked government officials claimed the reaction was all a conspiracy to discredit the Royal Thai Police. It would be wonderful if it could be so easily imagined away."

That there are groups of people working to discredit the Koh Tao police investigation is a fact, they even set FB pages and websites for that purpose.

There ARE groups of people who were and are working to expose what was, from the information released by the police at the time, a blatant mismanagement of the crime scene!! Just look at the photo of Montriwat Toowichian stepping over the rope containing the crime scene and then standing, unchallenged by the officer standing next to him, looking down at what probably was one of the two victims!!! No one needs to work to discredit the police investigation…..the police did a thorough job of that all by themselves!! If I, or a loved one, happen to be murdered and a similar quality of investigation takes place…I bloody well hope that there will be scores of people and groups of people making a similar effort to rectify the situation!!

"The Koh Tao investigation was compromised from the beginning, when police failed to properly seal off the crime scene. A rumour that the attack was carried out by someone linked to influential figures on the island was summarily dismissed and investigators quickly focused on the migrant community, refusing to even contemplate the possibility that Thais might have been involved."

Except that they did name and question said influential figures, Thais and foreigners besides migrant workers. So, false again... what was that about muddled things? You are partially correct, in that influential figures were questioned. But you appear to be ignoring the release that was initially made on September 23^rd 2014 - “Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon “ (Montriwat Toowichian, brother of village headman. Woraphan Toowichian); “He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said“; “He said both suspects (the both referring to Mon and Woraphan’s son, (Warot Toowichian (Nomsod) were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders“ Doesn’t sound to me as though the reporter could have misinterpreted the officer’s alleged comments! But then….all of a sudden, after Woraphan comes into the station and talks with the police, all evidence of complicity vapourizes, never existed….and even the stated implicating CCTV camera footage suddenly no longer exists!! Muddled thing…yesssss….but by whom? http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

"Respected forensic scientist Pornthip Rojanasunand, who has clashed with law-enforcement officials in the past, was denied access to the investigators' findings."

The defense was allowed to retest the evidence, Pornthip worked on it and reviewed the documentation. On top of that it was the defense that declined to retest the main DNA evidence, after asking for it. "More doubts were raised over the failure to run comparative DNA tests the female victim's clothing and a hoe that was the purported murder weapon. Pornthip, acting on behalf of the defendants, conducted that test and found that the DNA on the hoe did not match that of the accused." How about adding the factual nuance to that statement, for the sake of unmuddlying things? The initial police analysis found DNA from Witheridge on the hoe, Pornthip's analysis found also DNA from David Miller, and a third partial profile that matched 25% of the markers from one of the Burmese. By all means, let’s unmuddy things….starting with factual evidence! Did I miss that little tidbit….”initial police analysis found DNA on the hoe” Perhaps my eyes deceive me or the news reporter misunderstood, but my understanding of the sworn testimony of witnesses is that the police stated that they had NOT even tested the hoe for DNA but rather sought only fingerprints!! Please enlighten me if you have evidence to the contrary! My source is - http://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/learning-from-news/689964/koh-tao-murders-no-dna-match-says-dr-pornthip As for the your comment that it was the defence that “declined to retest……after asking for it” Yes, they did decline and for good reason!! Read the written words of an independent witness who attended every day of the trial and wrote down her best recollection (the relevant portion agrees completely with that of Andy Drummond) …starting at “ The defense team requested that the DNA be retested independently……………But what actually remained of the police's alleged DNA "evidence" to be retested was, in fact, merely the midway solution required in the actual DNA testing process itself. This midpoint solution will give an accurate profile; however, it CANNOT determine the actual ORIGINAL SOURCE of the DNA! Therefore, it will NOT show if original alleged DNA from the female decedent at the crime scene came from "semen" as the Royal Thai Police claim, or if it in fact came from oral mucosa, skin, hair, blood, saliva, cigarette butts, etc..and ending with “ For those two reasons, the defense team then; very wisely, declined retesting. “ Would you be willing to have anything to do with such “evidence”?? Better still, read the entire article…….

https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-an-david-miller/u/14822666Koh And yes, by all means, let’s unmuddy things!!!

"The court presumably attached more credence to prosecution testimony that the suspects' semen was found on the female victim's body, even though analysis of the DNA samples of three people was, in the view of other witnesses, done too hastily." Why wouldn't the judge attach more credence to people presenting actual evidence against biased opinions from the defense? Ahhhh…do you think it possible that a reasonable person with a modicum of common sense would feel that a good reason thinking this would be that these “biased opinions” were those of eminently qualified persons in the field of evidence being relied upon, and NOT the evidence any of the investigators who had, to some of us, given the appearance of being both biased and unqualified in DNA matters? By the way, what is your justification for saying “biased opinions? Why their opinions “biased” and not the prosecution witnesses? What factual evidence do YOU possess that points toward such a conclusion?

"Most troubling of all for the police case - and for the police force's reputation - is the fact the defendants, having withdrawn their confessions once a lawyer was belatedly provided, claimed they had admitted to the crime after being tortured. The court did not even take this point into consideration."

The court did take that into consideration, as anyone that reads the court ruling can see for themselves; so again muddle muddle muddle. The judge decided that there was no evidence of torture, in any case it's all moot since the ruling did not use the confessions to reach a decision (all of them, including to the Human Rights Commision, Myanmar embassy officials and other people) ood No, in their ruling they made no written reference to using the confessions to reach a decision…instead, as I understand it, the sole evidence that they relied upon was what has been described as “a sloppy one page document replete with handwritten amendments and crossings out, including date changes. “ The reported words of the Judge in a curt reference to torture were “ there was no weight to the two men's claims that they had been tortured during interrogation by police. “ That does not translate for me as not having played any part in the conviction..but rather that the Judge opined that their claim “ have been tortured was baseless!

"In spite of these many doubts and shortcomings, the national police chief, Pol Gen Jakthip Chaijinda, had the audacity to suggest that an unnamed political group had instigated the ensuing protests to discredit his men."

The very politically involved Ma Ba Tha sect that has been organizing the largest protests. “Is it then your position that bad people cannot, even sometimes, do good things? I mean, sure I would rather, if I was believed to be innocent of a crime for which I had been convicted and sentenced to be put to death, that some group such as the ‘Benevolent Order of the Established Saints” were to be organizing a protest against the decision rather than an organization who were involved in what appears to be criminal activism, but…hey..beggars can’t be choosers! And, they can protest….can Thais flock to the streets in front of the Courthouse in Koh Samui? Hardly!! Read the following excerpt from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Thailand

” The judgment of Thai courts may not be criticized. After a controversial ruling in July 2006 in which a criminal court jailed three election commissioners, the court worked with the police to identify 16 individuals who were captured on TV news footage criticizing the judgement.^[73]The court later found all the individuals guilty and gave jail terms to 4 of them. The maximum jail sentence for the offence is seven years.^[74]” The simple answer is that none of the other cases caught the interest of the foreign press, which stemmed from the fact that the victims in this murder were citizens of Britain, where the news media are not only highly opinionated but also alert to the hazards of Thai tourism."

This was not the first time Burmese murdered foreigners in Thailand, the difference is that in this case the defense team made every effort to, in their own words, have the case judged on the court of public opinion. Perhaps they should had focused on the court of law in instead. Ha” And herein lies the dilemma, if one has no confidence in the impartiality and/or the competence of the relevant judicial system, where would YOU focus your attention. And, in any event, I thought from what I have seen that they DID focus on the court of law, but received a less than a welcome reception!

"Moreover, the story evoked an all-too-common narrative - defenceless migrant workers becoming ready scapegoats in criminal probes and the victims of the whims of the rich and powerful."

Bingo, it's all about the narrative, not what the facts dictate. BINGO, it was all about whose evidence was accepted and whose was not!! That is your real Bingo!

None of the above comments by me should be construed as a criticism of a Thai Court of Law…..if I have seemed critical, let me say simply this. It is unfortunate that one feels the need to state what I have just stated!!

It was no "rumour" as to having two suspects, both of whom are related to the headman in Koh Tao..at least one was even arrested...but...............!! And when one looks at the various CCTV photos of the persons believed to have been involved, that have been made available, the resemblance to the two that were Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen's suspects, is truly uncanny. Couple that with the apparent fact no DNA was ever obtained from either of those two (unbelievable!!), the abrupt about-face by police after those two's father/uncle respectively comes in to talk with the police and the ABSOLUTELY appalling conduct of so-called trained investigators during the entire investigation....and the list goes on......missing/used up evidence of guilt..no problem, word of investigators is accepted, while evidence (DNA on murder weapon is found to be that of two unknown subjects) that is supports a belief that others are the guilty party...that is ignored!!! The resultant conclusion is almost, if not totally inescapable!! I hope that the hue and cry does not let up.........there is no "conspiracy to defame or belittle the RTP" by any clandestine group, for krissake!! The RTP did that all on their own and, imho, did a bang up job looking at all the evidence that has become public knowledge!! Now,their bang up job is being hung out and waved in the public's face by those whom I thought were working on ridding Thailand of corruption!

I know that non-Thais are "expected" to keep their "noses" out of politics, but with what has happened in this case, surely it can be understood that there is now a legitimate fear that if something happened to one of us, a similar shoddy (corrupt?) investigation could take place OR that even there is a possibility that one or more of us might find ourselves accused, charged and convicted in the same manner as the two Burmese men! The information that is contained in "Anonymous" report is largely confirmed by actual photo or video footage or by statements that have been made in court! One last comment....one cannot prove that torture was involved because of the very nature of the circumstances under which it is alleged to have been committed, but with the similarities of claims made by others over the years, plus the disappearance of a human rights lawyer after being provably abducted by members of the RTP while he was in the midst of representing persons making accusations of torture against RTP officers..........at some point, a reasonable person must say "There is definitely something very rotten here!!" And it doesn't require any "clandestine group working to defame the police" to come to that conclusion!!

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

" Under the "train-the-trainer" program..........Thai teachers who teach English in government schools ............... intensive six-week training course taught by English specialists from the British Council" A good idea...but until they stop passing ALL students irregardless of the how low a mark they achieved on their test, I don't care who they have teaching English, the students will never cut it. And another thing...you have to WANT to learn, so if they really want to improve a student's proficiency, they will have to come up with two things: 1) An incentive to be in the class to learn, not just occupying a chair because their curriculum requires it. and 2) Require that the student actually can pass the tests that are administered, before advancing them. There are countless students who are deservedly at the Prathom 5 level in Thai subjects, but would be hard-pressed to, legitimately, be able to pass tests at the Prathom 1 or 2 level in English grammar. This is through no fault of the teachers nor is it fair to criticize the student, for he or she has been brought up to KNOW that they will get a pass no matter what their actual knowledge is!! That is the reality!