LukKrueng

29 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

You need to go to the land office and request them, they usually dislike foreigners tho except in Bangkok.

In Chiang mai and co i had to hire a local lawyer to get copies, bangkok lawyer was refused, we all know why.

They can make you copies for the whole history of the chanote, not limited to certain timeframes.

 

Sometimes they just give it out, sometimes they ask the current owner if its ok. I am not sure if there are any laws governing this or if it's just case by case.

They can also provide info on adjacent plots that are related to the your own.

 

There's no real rules to do all this, it's more like detective work without any clear guidance on what to look for... it's can be quite frustarting.

 

 

There are many things to look for:

- if its owned a thai-farrang husband and wife couple, make sure that the farrang husband signed the document that his own wifes money was used, especially if its about land. If that isn't signed the husband has a claim to half the value of the land and could go after the new owner too (-.-). 

- If a chanote has been gifted before, that can be a serious issue too as by law gifts/donations can be revoked if the counterparty defames you etc. Make sure theres no retransfer right registed on the deed. (section 522 CCC)

- If there's no public road, make sure somehow there are servitudes that give you right of passage or your are SOL and cut off from your own land.

 

Example list of documents i got for one due diligence: 

- Certificate of utilization (nor sor 3 kor ) issued 19xx

- Land examination certificate issued 19xx

- certificate of the owner of connected land area and neighbor land, TorDor34

- Affidavit (TorDor 16)

- Title deed No. XX

- Request form tordor9 (subdivision)

- Application form Tor Dor 1 (registration of title and juristic act and land title examination blabla)

- Copy of Gift agreement, certified

- memorandum of servitude

 

 

 

It's usually that land starts with a Nor Sor 3, thats not really a ownership, its just a utlization right - the land has not been exactly measured at this point.

Magically the land office has no prior documentation, and that's quite often the case.

 

Then the "owner" starts an upgrade process to Nor Sor 3, this is sucessfull if no neighbour rejects it and claims otherwise, at this point the land is measured and it's nearly as good as a Chanote (Nor Sor 4). Chanote is GPS measured with clear boundaries, had the case that my boundary stones got lost and had to get them replaced, have fun doing that with Nor Sor 3 if your neighbour is a <deleted>.

Upgrading to Chanote title takes time often, can take years...

 

 

It's quite hard to make sense of all these documents, i don't think i would have been able to without a lawyer here, especially without speaking thai.

 

 

 

 

 

And to come back to that other point, where a chanote was revoked later on. 

That was a family case where one of the heiress faked the will of the dead person, took many many years to get that through in court (5 i think).

He sold the land as, he gained access to it using the fake will - rest of the family went to court.

I am not sure how the damage of the buyer played into it and if he got fully refunded from the seller.

What you are writing about is plots of land, not a complete building (and this thread is about condo units and Thai / foreign quota...).

If you have a copy of a chanot or even just the serial No of one, yes, you can go to the land department and ask to see their copy of it. And yes, adjacent plots are marked on the one in question so can look at those as well. However, on a condo's chanot there are no listings of the adjacent units, so having 1 number won't lead you to the next, thus asking to see all chanots of a complete building is not possible.

Also, N.S.3 and any other lesser type of ownership exists ONLY for plots of land, not for condo units.

And the last point you brought up is a fraud case. Let me remind you again what I have stated many times: All my comments on this thread are about the LEGIT and LEGAL ownership of a condo

And since that seems not clear enough for some people I'll add simply: I do not talk about scams, fraud or any other illegal activity on the property, in the property and during the process of buying/selling/transferring ownership of a property.

So again:

1. Did you ever get a history of a complete condominium building (NOT just 1 unit, not a plot of land, but for each and every unit in a COMPLETE CONDOMINIUM BUILDING)?

2. Have you ever heard of anyone who's ownership was revoked where there was no scams, fraud or any other illegal activity on the property, in the property and during the process of buying/selling/transferring ownership of a property?

Edit to add:

There is no need for a lawyer to get any type of information from the land department. Anyone can just walk into the office with a copy or a serial No. of the chanot and ask to see the physical copy held on location

18 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Yes, i did.

 

 

And yes, i do that all the time whenever i buy property.

 

 

 

Could you please elaborate? 

Did you get it from the land department or from the JPM? Did you have copies or serial numbers of all chanots of the building?

How many way points in time did you get? Current status + 1/5/10/15 years in the past?

3 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

A simple MISTAKE can turn your whole process into being NOT LEGIT.

 

 

Not true. if the TRANSACTION BEFORE that were fraudulent you can also lose your ownership. That's why it's so crucial to check the whole chanote and building history.

So I'll ask the same question again - have you ever heard of anyone whose ownership was revoked ??

And as for check the whole chanote and building history - have you ever tried to ask for full history of a building from either the land department OR the building management? 

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

 

 

Can't be right, If a thai owner sold to a foreign buyer it would now be more than 49%.

You don't mention the FET requirement for a foreign buyer
 

 

Are you trying to pick on words now? OK, just for you let me rephrase it:

as long as at the time of sale the ratio of Thai/foreign owners is 51/49% AFTER THAT SALE

Works for you now?

As this thread is about Thai/foreign quota and not about how to buy a condo or what documents needed, all I am talking about in all my replies is about this. However, in this same reply you quoted from I did write: with all other documents you need

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

It is relevant in as much as you were saying that as long as you have a ratio document from the JPM then there will be no problems. This is not necessarily so. If you have the misfortune to buy a unit in farang name and a forged or inaccurate document is used to confirm this then you may indeed find yourself unable to sell your unit on at its full value later.

 

The best bet for a farang is to only buy a unit that is currently owned by a farang and which has that farang's name on the chanote, and that is relevant to the original question. But even that is not a 100% guarantee that the ratio document is accurate or even real.

Scenario 1 Legit:

You get a legitimate letter from the condo management saying the unit is free of debt (to the building, nothing to do with mortgage) and the ration of Thai/foreign ownership AT THIS POINT IN TIME is foreign </= 49% (ie this specific date on which this letter is printed and signed by the authorized person of the JPM).

You take this letter (with all other documents you need) to the land office, pay the transfer fee (doesn't matter if the buyer, seller or some nice person you found on the street makes the payment as long as it is done) and you get your name registered on the chanot and congratulations - you are the LEGAL owner of this condo unit.

Scenario 2 Fraud:

You get a FAKE letter from the condo management, or a forged letter, or forged signature by a non authorized person, or the person who presents himself as the owner is not the real owner but somehow got his hands on the original chanot and somehow can identify himself as the owner at the land department and forge the owner's signature on the buy/sell agreement ....

or basically other way which is NOT LEGIT, and somehow you manage to get your name registered on the chanot using any forged document or through any fraud - well, you are NOT the LEGAL owner of that unit

All my comments on this thread are about the LEGIT and LEGAL ownership of a condo unit and the main points were:

1. There is no such thing as quota designation for any unit.

2. A foreign owner can sell to a foreign buyer (as long as at the time of sale the ration of Thai/foreign owners is 51/49%) or a Thai buyer

3. A Thai owner can sell to a Thai buyer or a foreign buyer (as long as at the time of sale the ration of Thai/foreign owners is 51/49%)

4. There is no different pricing for Thais or Foreigners. ** as some others have pointed out the price is a market price based on supply of units / demand by foreigners - I won't get into that **

5. If the transaction of ownership was LEGIT there is no way to revoke the ownership of the foreign owner

** Reply #27 shows an example of a building in which the total ownership by foreigners exceeded the allowed 49%.  Reply #28 explains how this could be.

**Reply #27 also shows a photo of the official announcement by the building management about the ratio situation. on the announcement it states the following:

- Thai citizens may transfer ownership to another Thai citizen

- Thai citizen MAY NOT transfer ownership to a foreigner

- Foreign citizen transferring ownership to another foreign citizen may be UNDER CONSIDERATION from the land department << and that makes your argument of "farang buying only from farang" irrelevant as there might be cases that a farang won't be able to sell to a farang

And let me just state this once again:

All my comments on this thread are about the LEGIT and LEGAL ownership of a condo

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

I know of some cases where the ratio document from the JPM was a complete forgery, right down to the signature, and that wasnt even the JPM's fault.

That's a totally different issue and has nothing to do with the original question on this thread about moving a unit from 1 quota to another nor with the rightful ownership of a condo. There are many cases of forged title deeds, forged car/bike registration books and so on. Those are criminal cases 

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

In April the Juristic of the Base in Pattaya issued a letter to residents saying the foreign quota had exceeded 49%, this means foreign will have to sell as thai until the 49% is reached. This means those selling will lose money

But still - nobody's ownership was or will be revoked. And selling to a Thai doesn't mean losing money. There is a misconception that a foreign ratio's unit worth more than a Thai ratio's unit. But there is no such thing as a foreign/Thai ratio's unit - and that was the original question of the OP.

47 minutes ago, david555 said:

"The land office has no practical way to check the current ownership situation of all unit in a particular building which is why they relay on the letter from the juristic person. So checking the ownership situation at any point in time in the past is basically impossible for them. "

 

 

In case of suspected fraud of criminal misconduct by juristic they can do easy as they have all the plans with the sqm, it is them office who made them …, do not forget same as a wrong stamping by arrival Thai immigration we , the foreigners are responsible to check we got the right stamp 

 

Short said , it is not forced , but advisable to have that juristic document , just in case ,others it is your word against a Thai word if problem would arise later .... meaning ….you foreigner loose 

Have you ever heard of a case where a foreigner's condo ownership was revoked due to out of quota buying? If so, how long after the date of purchase?

53 minutes ago, david555 said:

And be sure to have a copy  on writing , stamped with his seal , and I.D. signed , just in case for years later  have proof , as juristic can make "mistake" involuntary or deliberately.... Or other Juristic could be there later ...

I don't see the point in that. Once the unit is under your name and in the chanot - that's it. The letter from juristic person states the ownership situation at that point in time, not for generation to come. The land office has no practical way to check the current ownership situation of all unit in a particular building which is why they relay on the letter from the juristic person. So checking the ownership situation at any point in time in the past is basically impossible for them.

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

2 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

I don't know if it's by size or number of units (size makes sense as the monthly fee to the building is by size as well) however what I wrote in my first reply is the same - the units don't "belong" to this or that quota and there is no such "procedure" to change it

You didn't answer the second part of the question "it's just recorded by the juristic person if your condo is local or foreign?"

correct

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

1 hour ago, LukKrueng said:

There is no such thing as a unit "under local/foreign quota".
The land department / juristic person have to make sure that at all times at least 51% of the units are registered to local owners. So if a Thai buys a unit, it makes no difference if bought from a local or a foreign owner. Seller and buyer can just go to the land office and change ownership. However if a foreigner buys a unit from a Thai person, he must bring a letter from the juristic person saying that at least 51% belong to Thais and that by a foreigner buying said unit this will still be true. No extra costs nor procedures. 

So the land office don't record individual condos as local or foreign? it's just recorded by the juristic person if your condo is local or foreign?

no they don't. The chanot is the same normal chanot and nowhere on it to say if it's on the 49% or 51% "part of the building"

1 hour ago, expat_4_life said:

Technically this is false, there is no unit quota.  The law is 49% foreign ownership, maximum,  So, if a Thai owned a 200 SQM unit, it would be possible for (close to) 2 foreign owners to hold 100 SQM units.  The percentage is based on SQM.

I don't know if it's by size or number of units (size makes sense as the monthly fee to the building is by size as well) however what I wrote in my first reely is the same - the units don't "belong" to this or that quota and there is no such "procedure" to change it

20 hours ago, johng said:

The only way to keep your new tank is to take it to a filling station yourself...my wife was very angry that a new tank we had recently bought was exchanged for a filthy rusty old one...also they have a date stamped on them after which they should be inspected...some places won't except "expired tanks"

I always take it to a filling station. Price fluctuates according to the gas prices and I can't remember how much I paid last time. However, the tank's expiration date was about 6 or 9 months ahead so I asked the guy filling the tanks where can I go to exchange it. He looked back, saw 1 tank that looked good and new, checked the date on it which was about 3 years ahead, and said to me - here you go ????

15 hours ago, simon43 said:

The ambulance arrived and took the man to hospital.  The traffic police arrived and marked the road, took photos of the scene, made a note of my contact details and left.  My insurance guy arrived promptly (I have class 1 insurance) and efficiently noted everything and is currently arranging for repair of my pick-up.

 

Now the local police have contacted me and said that I need to come to the police station to arrange to pay for the man's hospital bill and repairs to his samlor!!

Did your insurance guy arrive before or after the police? 

Anyway - all contact with police regarding this accident should be done through the insurance guy. Best is if you let him do the talking and you just sit and listen, and reply through him as well.

In cases where the accident is between a "lower class" vehicle and a "higher class" vehicle (as in your case - pick-up vs tuk-tuk) and the "lower class" driver is injured and have only the compulsory insurance, the police will ask the insured guy to help cover some of the medical costs of the injured person out of compassion. It is not unusual and happens even if both parties are Thai. The way and amount is negotiable and this negotiation should be done by the insurance guy. If you refuse the police have the option to send the issue to court and they can arrest you on the spot until the trial. However, for this reason your 1st class insurance has a set amount for bail money (I think it is 50K) but it takes them about 24 hours to get the money to the police, so it will be good idea to have the bail money ready so you can immediately post bail by yourself. Please note that such negotiations can take time and more than 1 meeting with the police so it's not like "pay now or go to jail" thing, but if no agreement on the first meeting your insurance guy can ask for an appointment for the next meeting and you will not be held at the police for now.

4 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

why do they have to renew a licence every 5 years? Mrs did it last week, took half a day of nonsense, including another colour blindness test, which I believe you do not develop but had to have the last time and a 50 minute film about how to drive on the road, when almost everyone is looking at their phones, or asleep.

I renewed mine about a month or so ago. Had to bring a medical certificate, wait in line (long time) to pay, at the cashier they had a device like a traffic light (but the red/yellow/green can come up at any position) for the color blindness test, then wait for my cue for taking a picture and 5 minutes after that I had my 2 new licenses in hand.

I don't think 7-11 shops can sell what's not supplied by 7-11 or off the register. They have QC checks and auditing very often 

1 hour ago, rexall said:

I think Thailand is a Buddhist country. However, be that as it may, taking your pont, I guess the 5% who are not Buddhists must run the gov.

What I meant is that Thailand does not run by religious rule, but by civil law, same as the USA, UK and so on. It is the Thai people and government's prerogative to decide who can visit Thailand, who can stay in Thailand, and the conditions under which they can. 

Whether you (or any other non Thai) accept or agree to these facts, whether you accept and respect the Thai culture or not - it is not up to you.

If I wanted to visit or move to live in the USA / NZ / Canada / India / Pakistan or any other country which I am not a citizen of, I would have to fulfill all the requirements for the permit to stay or visit there, and it makes no difference if I like it, I am comfortable with it or not. If I am up to THEIR standards - I can go. If I am not, then I can't go. And in most places you can't really contest the decisions made about you. So why should it be any different here?

2 hours ago, rexall said:

If Thailand is a Buddhist country, above and beyond Buddhist compassion, it is unfortunate the gov seems to lack the wisdom to realize that it cannot control every aspect of reality. This results in them becoming cranky when, as the OP says, people "trick" the system. If a system can be tricked, it is going to be tricked. Duh!  Trying to repress this results in draconian over-reach, implementing policies that cannot be elegantly enforced.  Without bothering to consider the unintended consequences, it in  turn generates lack of respect  in visitors, immigrants and citizens, and a loss of face in the global community. Sigh!

Thailand is not a Buddhist country. It is a sovereign country in which about 95% of the citizens are Buddhist by religious definition. And as in most countries, when a loophole is a law is found, there is an attempt to fix it . Duh! Sigh!

1 hour ago, DingDongLing said:

More people= More money/economic movement = more taxes/vat/ect

Basic economic principals that they do not realize.

how about the need for more infrastructure? 

12 hours ago, overherebc said:

The last person anyone should ask for legal advice is a lawyer.

Plus.

You don't know if I am asking for my benefit or if I'm asking because it was something we talked about and no-one was quite sure.

35 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Read post 24.

ummm... I can't decipher from post 24 what the OP hopes to achieve by posting the photo... 

On 5/26/2019 at 1:39 PM, overherebc said:

I've been told that if you have a nuisance neighbour who just loves burning crap and plastic waste almost everyday and you post a photo of him doing it he can sue you for doing so.

True or false?

what do you hope to achieve by posting such photos?

OK, a short update...

So now I can hold an ark pretty nicely. Started with high amps and slowly tried at lower settings. At the moment I feel good at about 100 amps but can also hold ark (for shorter time) on around 80.

I still find it hard to go in a straight line though, so when trying to attach 2 pieces together I tend to do short strikes and correct. None of what I connected so far is going to win any award for good craftsmanship nor any beauty contest but if it holds together I am happy for now...

I got my auto darkening mask which makes it much easier than when holding the hand held mask that came with the machine. Now I have to find some long +/- lines as the 1.3m and 1.8m that came with the machine are very limiting.

I am not going to weld any roofs or other important constructions, but I hope the frame for holding passion fruits I started to weld will be able to hold the fruits....

Thank you all again for all the comments and advise ????