plachon

Well put. I have a Thai friend who works in Bangkok, but whose family comes from Suphan Buri, one of the ''affected'' provinces (in newspaper talk). Her farmer brother had to stand by and watch last week as the men in white suits arrived and slaughtered his 10,000 poultry stock. His livelihood, gone in one day.

I would like to think Thaksin will feel the impact at the ballot box, I really would. One of his creepy ministers said the other day that he hoped farmers would learn from this experience and quit raising chickens in the open. We need to move to large, closed-system farms, he said...because they've survived much better through this crisis than ordinary chicken farms!

The gall of the man. They've survived better not because they are somehow superior but because the government decided to spare the lives of stock on large, closed-system plants. That decision in itself might be sound, but what about the small-scale farmers who have lost everything? Reeks of double standards.

Thaksin's chicken show at KFC was just as odd. What has KFC got to do with the lives of thousands of chicken farmers?

Unfortunately, this one blatant incident of govt., cover-up followed by lies, lies and more lies (look how the Hon Min for Tourism is still predicting a RISE! in tourism figures for February!!!!!!!!!), has still yet to stir the ordinary man in the street to think about changing political allegiance. The sad fact is, the vast majority of the electorate don't vote according to how honest their elected PM or MP is or has performed over their term of office. They expect the campaigning politicians to put notes in their pockets and then will offer their sworn allegiance. I've just seen it with the municipal elections of the last w/end, when a grand or so might secure you a vote. Nobody stops to consider how that expense will have to be recouped once in office, and so the great game goes on..........

What I really wonder is how much KFC and other multi-nationals have to pay the cookie masters to get their place in the sun? It's crystal that CP is a major contributor to party funds and needs its back scratched in a crisis like this.

I seem to remember there was a news report on a similar incident not so many months ago. Is it the same guy (he did say he was a serial mutt rapist) doing the same deed, or is it a common incident round the country? As if blow torching soi dogs alive before eating them, wasn't bad enough, now these bitches have to contend with another threat on the streets!

Boon Me,

I think I'm going away for a while. BS has gotten tiring, and I don't need people calling me: a product of incest, a stupid moron, and weasel faced(?), when I have not disrespected them as such.

Fact is that this gentleman as he calls himself would never say these things to my face.

For his reference, I am 32, 6'3" 285lbs. While I am a professional, I used to hang with 81 Dagos, and/still the Mexican brownshirts.

Is this some kind of threat, no way. I am just telling you that I understand respect, I show it to others, and expect it in return.

If you want to disrespect me, then do it to my face.

Gentleman, if you don't understand where I am comming from, and still want to see me, email me and I will oblige: [email protected]

SoCal

QUOTE (plachon @ Thu 2004-01-29, 02:36:40)

How come you sold out on trying to save the world?

SoCal's reply:

"Jaded I guess. Seems like such a daunting task. I've been to places that make Thailand look like a first world country.

34 now, and VP of an international company. Want to retire in 8 years. Retirement doesn't mean not working to me, but freedom to do the things you want. Maybe then I'll put my cape back on, and try to save the world."

Suffering from a touch of amnesia SoCal about your age, or is it that you're starting to believe the girls' "You handsome young man come with me for short time, no?" LOL. Looks like you really need that holiday, when you can't even remember your vital stats.

Looks like there's more than Georgie - Porkie telling little pies these days.

What the result will be at the end.

That's really the question, isn't it? My guess would be that this won't really effect travellers who have their heart set on Indonesia. They will make the necessary effort to obtain a visa in advance (if required) and off they will go. I see this affecting the more casual traveller who will find somewhere else to go once you start erecting barriers in his way.

But, DR. PP is right. Indonesia currently has bigger problems facing their tourism industry.

You're spot on Ovenman - Reading this news has just made me change my mind about where to go this April with my family. Were thinking of moseying over to Sumatra for a little tiow, but since that will now cost me an extra $75 and some hassle in getting the visas, think will just stick to Malaysia for the duration. Pity, but the Guinness is good on the west side of the Malacca Straits and 75 smackers can buy quite a few stubbies. So, sorry Hon. Minister, you're wrong.

I really must question whether Bank Staff

can know PINs. PINs should only be known to the Computer.

And - I have witnessed many people in Bangkok

in front of ATMs with several Cards and looking at bits of paper.

Maybe they are transferring money to other accounts,

paying Bills etc - but I get the impression that some of them

are withdrawing cash for others.

Is it common practise for Thais to trust others

- maybe fellow workers - with their PINs?

Roger

A few years ago it used to be common at the end of the month to see people in their factory/office clothes queuing up at the ATM with a handful of ATM cards and a list of scribbled PINS. That one "ATM literate person" would then attempt to withdraw the wages of everyone, but usually get all mixed up over which PIN went with which card and it would take forever, sometimes losing cards in the machine after too many attempts at the PIN number. And this was all based on trust by the ATM owners that Khun XYZ wouldn't try to rip them off and would deliver their wages. Incredible, but it doesn't seem so common these days. Funny that, wonder why?

I think that you've squarely hit one nail on the head with regards to aggravating factors, CV. The rapid growth of uncontrolled or monitored computer games for kids (tempted to say "impressionable youth" but am sure will get a flood of complaints for being patronising) is I'm sure one, crucial factor in the rise in violence & vandalism, as I perceive its occuring. Not enough to passively sit for hours on end at w/ends and at nights watching uncensored violence on the telly, kids (some younger than that 7 year old) can now go and partake in virtual violence with the latest graphic video game. Whether it helps suppress violent tendencies by acting as a valid substitute for aggression, or feeds and encourages the expression of that same aggression is a moot point that could probably be debated for hours, but my observations would tend to support the latter theory. Another mitigating factor in Thailand, is that computers being new, modern, progressive, etc., are not perceived by more than a very small minority as being anything else than a "good" thing offering only benefits. The fact that content could be altering the whole world view of a generation in a very short space of time, hasn't yet seeped into the general consciousness yet, and I suspect never will.

I wonder what would have happened if the 7 yr old kid hadn't got his way with playing those games? He's now learned that shouting and demanding his way from adults who are his parents subordinates is acceptable. That, however, is nothing new in sections of Thai society if one watched soaps 10 or 15 years ago.

Got an idea - why don't y'all hold an Anti-War Rally???  You could go around wearing those little Berets and calling yourselves "Comrad"! 

Have a nice day...

Boon Mee, tonight u r a bit adventerous. I mean Pax americanus and than you call for the Axis of Stupidity for Plachon?

Lwt's face it, even Dr. cancelled his Plchon remarks tonight b4 I finishrf reading.

And Dr. must have been high on adventure stories.

Why do some things and people never cease to amaze me in the "world" outside, as much as they do on this site? Bloody amazing, nein?

'Normally the ethics of researchers is such that if there is only a slight possibility of something happening, then they will discuss it among themselves, they will not say anything to the public to raise concern,' Mr Thaksin told reporters.

He still doesn't get it. It's not up to him to make such decisions. People have a right to know, however remote the possibility.

Evidently he learnt nothing from his last cover-up, and the resulting uproar.

Where does this paternalism come from?

No, of course he "doesn't get it" and never will. The strong streak of paternalism is genetic I suspect, both paternal and maternal, stretching back for centuries of absolute state control over the masses, where questioning your leaders is considered "unpatriotic" at best, treasonable at worst.

I was referring mainly to Georgie-Porgie and Membrane. Both are unable to reply without abusing people.

Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, they can be a bit obnoxious, boring and repetitive in their postings (is that another "blah, blah, blah" I hear?), but blame it on their education system and government of the day for these subterranean specimens (at least above the neck) with sand in their eyes and soil in their ears. One has to be patient with them. I can detect subtle changes in our Membrane already, but don't tell him.

Can we stop this nonsense?

GWB deserves the peace Nobel price!

Anybody who is not for this is against HIM.

Hear Hear - good words Axel!

Can you believe how worked-up these Lefties are getting at the thought that Bush would even qualify for a Peace Prize - Nobel or other?

Man, even when Blow-Job-Bill was in office the ill feelings directed towards him were not close to the viceral hatred shown GWB in this Forum.

Boon Mee

It seems there's a 42 carat plonker born every minute. And it's not even April 1 Axel, you cruel lad! Please have some sympathy for the mentally retarded and keep the laughter down, or the neighbours will complain.

Me too, I say give "Prez" Bush and B.liar the Nobel Peace Prize for their contributions to hastening the demise of the US Empire. Pax americanus. Maybe that's what the poodle had in mind all along?

IT, thanks for putting across that personal insight so well. Some people, will NEVER, EVER understand that sometimes to not look away, get involved, show a little compassion, give something away for no reward, offer some support to those less fortunate than ourselves, etc., makes us a little bit more "human" and a little less like....................those who do that kind of thing to flesh and blood in Burma.

If people who think DavidM's attitude (it's not our country - don't get involved - but carry on trading with these unelected people on the "other side") is the way to go, then that's their perogative, but don't look down on people who are prepared to make a sacrifice on another's behalf. The most likely reason behind David M's posting I believe is that deep down he feels threatened by his own selfishness and aloofness, but this helps to rationalise and justify it.

Another thread loses its way. Och well, can't say I didn't try and thanks by the way, to SoCal for sticking to the straight and narrow and civil path on this one. Aren't you on that tub of yours yet mate?

I really dont know what to have for lunch now I have a nice piece of frozen chicken in the freezer but a nice fat labrador puppy in the yard,what to do?

Simple: Thaw the chicken out and feed it to the Lab. If it doesn't get sick or die within 30 days, then you know it's safe to eat.................... In my experience though, Black Labs taste better than Goldens - what's yours?

Fifthly, if you think using chicken shit in a pond is somehow a risk to your health, please explain to me why Chinese often site their crappers directly over fish ponds and then eat the fish and live to tell the tale? 1.2 billion Chinese can't be wrong

I'm sorry, but you're probably far safer eating a chicken shit pond fed Thai catfish, than you are that juicy tuna steak you fancy for dinner tonight.

I'll take my fresh snapper, grouper, or tuna every time. Sorry pal you just don't make much sense. 13 out of 17 fish processers in Thailand failed there inspections in 2002.

Sorry if I'm not making much sense to you Marshy. Guess it's a load of <deleted> to some, eating fish from crap-enriched pond, but believe you me, nearly all our water sources, including the seas, have become big over-fished toilets in recent years. By eating as close to the source of production as possible, and avoiding too much processing (I don't dispute your assertion note, but it doesn't affect me as I don't buy processed fish, apart from the odd tin of tuna), then you are cutting down your risk of contamination considerably. This presumes you have some prior knowledge about the source of production, which applies to all food. One of ironies of this whole bird flu scare is that while Toxin (isn't he leader of the THai Rak THAI party?) happily goes into KFC to demonstrate the safety of Thai chickens, while the old European consumer has been none the wiser that he/she has been eating finger-lickin chicken shipped half way round the world, to take advantage of lax public health / environmental controls and cheap labour costs at this end, with the obvious impact on the European poultry farmers. Those labels of origin aren't stuck on KFC buckets of cack, as they ought to be.

Which coral reef did you snapper or grouper come from Marshy, or perhaps they were farmed in cages? - see comments on dioxins in salmon.

Cheers mate I'm only winding you up-I'll eat chicken, fish or whatever dead comes across my plate. No worries about the bird flu I was being a tad sarcastic. Mind you gekko is quite tasty even might pass as a faire substitute- we had a few bags of those after a nice session.

Gecko or ground lizard? ("yae" in Isaan speak). Geckos aren't the best of meals, but they are not bad, gutted and steeped in whisky for a few months. "Yae" are great barbequed or a la pad pet. Can't beat insects though (jing-reed and maeng-ee-chon are best) for finger food with the old suds.

The point of my post and many other's posts just flies right by your arrogant red-necked head nearly every time. If you can't get it into that grey matter that there has to be some irrefutable proof presented in a reliable court of law before you can just write off hundreds of human beings as "terrorists" (whatever that means?), then we're all just wasting our time talking to a couple of imbeciles. Provide the proof mate, of those guys connections with some terrorist event and you'll make your hare-brained prejudices a little bit more credible. As it is, most people have got totally bored of your drivel and I'm fast reaching that point too.

By the way, "Darkie" toothpaste was a minor classic bit of not-so-subtle racism, which is best confined to the realms of history along with slavery, segregation and public displays of racist attitudes. Get over it, man, and just brush your pearls with Darlie instead.

Irrefutable Proof my a##! If it walks, talks and smells like a foking duck, it's a foking Terrorist!

Mass Denial - just what poor little Mohamad Atta's old man and the rest of that shower are in... and, sorry to say, a few "Jane Fonda" / "Ramsey Clark" types as well.

From overlooking the latest missive by the ###### don't think this thread has much more life in it...

Boon Mee

Proof of the pudding, pie and 'mee is in their postings............I'm afraid I've had my fill of your fare. ######'s right - some people are beyond the pale and it ceases to have much point, arguing with morons to the nth degree. Bye-bye G-P and Boonmee, may the pox be incurable.

Yes violence and vandalism are on the rise. If you don't believe me, take a look at your posts.

The Cynic,

Are you referring specifically to the ones inside or outside this thread? And are you talking just about Thailand, which was my intention when starting this thread? (please don't draw this thread ex-LOS).

(Good sailing/fishing/diving locations in the world exempted from this clause!)

Would agree that violence against poultry and other feathered friends has soared of late (bagged up and buried alive), but the jury is still out on the human dimension of my question as far as I'm concerned. Still needs more feedback from others' observations of their local situations.............................................

It's these disenfranchised workers and the ordinary villagers who've lost their native chicken breeds (along with their little remaining faith in govt.) to an ill-advised and executed cull, which'll be the biggest long term fall-out from this disease. Not easily quantifiable like poultry exports, but the social and economic ramifications are, as usual, falling heaviest on the most vulnerable members of society. Agro-biodiversity is another casualty, which cannot just be conjured upout of nothing after the disease has run its course. This is likely to be a permanent loss to the country.

The point of my post and many other's posts just flies right by your arrogant red-necked head nearly every time. If you can't get it into that grey matter that there has to be some irrefutable proof presented in a reliable court of law before you can just write off hundreds of human beings as "terrorists" (whatever that means?), then we're all just wasting our time talking to a couple of imbeciles. Provide the proof mate, of those guys connections with some terrorist event and you'll make your hare-brained prejudices a little bit more credible. As it is, most people have got totally bored of your drivel and I'm fast reaching that point too.

By the way, "Darkie" toothpaste was a minor classic bit of not-so-subtle racism, which is best confined to the realms of history along with slavery, segregation and public displays of racist attitudes. Get over it, man, and just brush your pearls with Darlie instead.

Roll-on that day, though I strongly suspect he'll have found somewhere else to have a good rant by then, if he hasn't by now. It's funny how it always seems to be "politically correct lies" or "leftist propaganda" with anything you happen to disagree on G-P. Convenient way of disposing of uncomfortable home truths, eh?

Here, I'll seek to rejuvenate this thread and bring in a recent tribute to Tolkien I read, which is maybe appropriate given the popularity of the film versions of the Lord of the Rings trilogy (come in Eye of Sauron!). It's from a book called "Secret Fire: The Spiritual Vision of JRR Tolkein" by Stratford Caldecott and in fact, could relate to several bear pit threads, not just this one.

"Tolkein was always conscious of the temptation that besets the righteous: to employ an evil means in a good cause. This was how the great had fallen, how Denethor and his son Boromir were deceived, how Gandalf and Galadriel might easily have fallen, and how we ourselves can still fall. Aragorn triumphs over this temptation. Evil must not be done for the sake of the good. This has many implications, in Middle England and the Middle East, as much as the middle Earth. Even the orcs, who appear utterly evil and "must be fought with the utmost severity", Tolkein writes in one of his notebooks, "must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of the Elves and men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost". No torture then, in Gunatanamo Bay."

But, in reality, many so-called, "patriots" have abandoned these men and boys (youngest 14) to their fate, even without affording them the luxury of a trial or any other means of defence of their basic human rights. Guilt by association, right? Great country that MLK Jr would be proud of nowadays?

Yeah, finally got some rises from some small fry, but the big fish remain elusive quarry.

<deleted>, you mean we gotta share this thread with some other scruffy louts with nothing better to do than post meaningless diatribes on the state of the world and complain how things ain't quite as "sanuk" as they used to be? Aw, too bad, but it's a phenomenon in itself that I could draw out both Boonmee and old G-P into this thread without getting flamed for being too leftist, P.C. anti-american, etc., even if an Aussie might feel he was having his knackers twisted ever-so-slightly by Boonmee's thread (I'm British mate, through and thru' ) Actually, the newspiece you posted made me laugh for the concept of "periodic detention", just at w/ends, which is a new one on me, but could be a great idea for some Bruces who want to get away from their nagging Shiela's for a couple of days peace and quiet, and still be back at work at work on Monday morning. Judge Blackmore could be doing 'em a favour!

Jeez, you work 70 hrs/week and still find time to post on Thaivisa? Or does this count as "work"? Me, I overload on 20 hours! Sabai, sabai man.

SoCal, enjoy your sailing week after next, get loads of beers and some good food on board, leave the office far behind and hope the winds are fair. Yeah, you're not a total lost cause just yet, dude. Where's the boat based?

Chill out,

Plachon

You laugh, but fish flu might not be far off. I read an article on a Chicken Farmer north of Bangkok. He used the chicken poop to feed fresh water fish he was raising to sell. LOL

Me thinks Fresh water fish is off the menu!!!

Why? What's your problem? "I eat fish that have been swimming around in and (shock, horror!) possibly even eating chicken poo, therefore I'm at risk of getting avian flu or some other deadly disease" Sorry pal, but it don't quite work like that, even though I know it runs against your sensitive disposition and cultural conditioning since birth. Here's a few reasons why you don't need to panic and become a vegan just yet.

Firstly, for anyone that's ever eaten one of those delicious barbequed catfish (pla duk) on a stick, the chances are it came out of a pond so laden with shit of every description, that I'll spare you the details, and the catfish were quite likely fed on the offal and carcasses of dead chickens. If there was anything wrong or dangerous about this practice, there probably wouldn't be a Thai (nor millions of foreigners who've enjoyed the meal) well and alive today, as we'd all be dead or in hospital.

Secondly, animal faeces added to a pond is mostly not consumed directly by the fish, but "fertilises" the water (just like putting it on the soil in a field), as it contains macro-nutrients which encourage plant growth (phytoplankton), which makes the water green and nourishes food organisms further up the food chain. In other words, the poop is essential in making sure there are lots of wee bugs and beasties for our fish, which are later harvested for human food, to feast on (hope I'm not getting too technical here) )

Thirdly, it makes far more sense to locate chicken, duck, pig pens etc., directly above the fish ponds, negating the need to transport the crap, thus minimising handling and maximising energy efficiency, than physically carrying it from farm to pond. It also means any uneaten, spilt food falls directly into the ponds and can be eaten by fish, thereby increasing efficiency. The enriched, green water can also be used for other on-farm uses such as vegetable or fruit tree production, also increasing yields without he need for artificial fertilisers.

Fourthly, the more integration of animal and livestock components on any given farm, increases energy efficiency, minimises external inputs and decreases wastage of resources - major problems (largely externalised onto the environment) in closed, non-integrated farming systems , like that used for the poultry export-business, like the CP farms.

Fifthly, if you think using chicken shit in a pond is somehow a risk to your health, please explain to me why Chinese often site their crappers directly over fish ponds and then eat the fish and live to tell the tale? 1.2 billion Chinese can't be wrong!

And finally, don't think you're any safer by just eating sea fish or "healthy" salmon from modern fish farms in the West. A recent report widely published in newspapers round the world, recommended eating salmon no more than 3 or 4 times a year, due to the dangerously high levels of dioxins (read: nasty cancer causing chemical) found in flesh samples. The highest doses of these dioxins were found in Scottish salmon, while most wild, high value oily fish from the high seas, like tuna and swordfish have also been found recently to be carrying high levels of mercury and other heavy metals in their flesh, due to bio-accumulation up the food chain.

I'm sorry, but you're probably far safer eating a chicken shit pond fed Thai catfish, than you are that juicy tuna steak you fancy for dinner tonight.

Maybey it has also something to do with the Thai's supporting the khmer rouge in that time, in exchange for these nice red rubbies and some beatifull old teak trees so the pol-pot gang get some old used weapens to kill the locals.

FYI, China, UK, and USA also covertly supported Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in the late 80s and early 90s, for not better reason than he was in opposition to the communist Vietnamese forces. Britain sent SAS forces to train Khmer Rouge guerrillas in anti-personnel mine laying and even took some to Malaysia for training. Sad, but true.

Looking at it another way Mrentoul, this outbreak could be a cloud with a silver lining for Mr Big. He's been scratching his moonface for a way to force small farmers off their land and into the urban-industrial sector, ever since he got into office. He thought he'd come up with the ideal plan in the Assets to Capital scheme, where he could actually give the impression he was "helping" the small man in his field, while actually just doling his/her land out to the rich and TRT-connected. Now, with this crisis, the timetable for his wicked scheme can be accelerated considerably, so I think you can safely expect those Klong Toey des-resses you can see from your Post window will be filling up rapidly with the flotsam of Toxin's policies in the next couple of years. Meanwhile, Betagro, CP, Grampian Foods and all these other crooked agribusiness companies will be cleaning up everything but their act. Ah, what a beautiful world............

How repugnant - first revoking these people's citizenship then ordering DNA tests on them. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that the ancestors of the Mae Ai residents have lived on Thai soil for considerably longer than those ordering the tests. Not that we'd ever be allowed to learn such things. At the rate, they're conducting the DNA tests, it'll take more than 80 years to test the whole group. But sorry, the govt., are just too busy with other things (like saving CP's skin) at the moment to worry about such minor things as hill tribe's rights to education, healthcare, citizenship, even the right to human rights. Bloody marvellous, eh?