plachon

Could it possibly be that, that in the raising of the drinking age from 16 to 20, and the general exclusion of this age group from various entertainment spots; is a factor?

My observations are, that despite any official attempts to control under-age drinking, Thai teenagers are starting drinking younger and younger in any case. Less parental control, more peer pressure, more pocket money or cash hanging around the house, more seductive advertising, easier purchase thru' all-nite shops, etc.? Whatever the reasons, the kids are getting pissed more often than 10, 15 years ago and IMHO, there is nothing more pitiful than a Thai wai-roon out of his (or occasionally her) skull on lao kao - Spy mixers! (with the possible exception of a Reading fan after a 5-0 thrashing by Brighton) Whether this leads to a rise in violence/vandalism, I can but guess.

How come you sold out on trying to save the world?

Jaded I guess. Seems like such a daunting task. I've been to places that make Thailand look like a first world country.

34 now, and VP of an international company. Want to retire in 8 years. Retirement doesn't mean not working to me, but freedom to do the things you want. Maybe then I'll put my cape back on, and try to save the world.

Nice talking to you as well Plachon.

Take care.

Depends on how big a chunk of the world you want to take on. Don't get too ambitious. Not so difficult if you remember one of the favourite old adages of the Greenies - "Think globally and act locally". It's timeless, simple and true. Work on the things you can influence, whether it's your own consumption habits or making a positive contribution to those directly around you. Get to know your neighbours, renew contact with someone in your family or an old friend you haven't spoken to in years, start thinking about the term "community", think about joining a meditation course, eat a little less meat or junk food or whatever. These small things make a difference. You only get jaded when you get swamped by the feeling "What difference can one person make to the world?" and end up with the conclusion: "Aw, <deleted> it, it's only me that counts and I'm gonna make as much money as I can in as short a time as possible and retire happy". It's an illusion, mate. The world's still out there, so engage with it, warts n'all, and change those small things that are within your power to change.

I'm aware that this is dangerously close to preaching. Not intended. Ignore if you want. Just wanted to put across a hint of an alternative worldview to the MBA one. Yes, it's good "chatting" with you without ripping each other's throats out.

It would be mind altering to see the Bangkok Proust saying the same in English, but "I don't speak English too well so I don't want to talk to Foreign Media", put paid to that faint hope.

Getting a slight dose of Banharnitis methinks. On the subject of Thaksin's English (or lack of it), I have seen 2 different reports giving different Universities that Tox attended. One was in Texas, the other in Kentucky, I think. somebody please put me right about where he picked up such great pasaa angrit?

Ever get the feeling the long suffering Thai people have been kipperised?

Be that as it may, Thais still like him...and there's not much we can do about that.

That I don't dispute for one minute. Doesn't change the fact that he's subtly robbing the ordinary man blind (NOTE, not by trad corruption methods) and with each day that goes by owning a little bit more of LOS. And don't forget Joe Blow in the Philippines held lots of affection for the Marcoses, even while he was squirreling the millions into Swiss banks and for some inexplicable reason, a sizable number still fall for Imelda's crocodile tears when she goes out in her new pair of shoes each day.

I just found this little snippet of information on the net. It's quite thought-provoking.

"Perhaps the most remarkable example of integrated biosystem today is practiced in Southeast Asia. In this region a type of farming has developed that relies largely or mostly on wastes to feed animals. In a typical arrangement, poultry cages are set above the pigpens so that the poultry droppings fall directly into the pens to be eaten by the pigs. The pigpens are, in turn, built above a fishpond so that the fish eat the pig dung. The bodies of dead poultry and pigs are rendered in vats. The resulting solid material is fed to the fish, while the liquid slurry is used in an anaerobic reactor that generates energy to heat the vats and light the farm buildings. The fishponds must be cleaned periodically, which allows the collection of sediments rich with fertilizer from the fish droppings. This type of farming is common in Thailand, China, Korea, and Vietnam. "

Sorry to break it to some, but this type of integrated farming has been around donkey's years. It's old hat and extremely energy efficient in terms of food chains (although in the ideal, well-managed farm, the only dead pigs, birds, fish that leave are healthy ones destined for the table, not the vats). however, rather than becoming more common in Thailand, integrated farming (incidentally promoted to by HM the King) is now on the decline as the govt. for years has been supporting "closed system" non-integrated systems for poultry, fish and swine which are extremely energy inefficient, terrible for the environment, require large amounts of technology imports and narrow gene bases of breeds ( useful to fight flu epidemics, for example), but boost share prices in a handful of giant agribusiness companies. Local breeds, small farms, a healthy environment, local markets, indigenous technology and independent workers are not valued assets in the Toxin / Newin vision of Thai agriculture. The price to be paid for this "vision" is the one being reaped now by the poultry industry and very soon, the tourism industry. The downside of globalisation / corporatisation.

I am bitter. I've said many times that I am not in the Bear-Pit to have fun. I am here to defend my country. This is a pain in the butt to me, but I am sick of seeing the USA torn apart by a bunch of creeps, losers and weirdoes with out anything constructive to do, spouting a bunch of PC lies.

I don't need to be nice. I didn't invite these <deleted> to come here.

Since when has this been your party / forum you bitter & sore loser?

nice to know you're still doing your duty to emperor bush and country, G-P, but it's getting you nowhere old fellow - just look at the polls against your rhetorical questions!. Just quit before you embarass yourself any further flame-face.

What about the beverly hillbillies? Are they still free

Piss off Khun ???????? you insensitive <deleted>. If you can't post anything more intelligent than that, then just butt out and stick to the jokes page.

IT, as a matter of interest, once the Akha are moved off their land, who comes in and claims it to build these tourist developments? Is it powerful local business figures who then sell it on, or do the police / army themselves try to set up tourist resorts? If there are any names I may have heard of, at least I and others could show solidarity by not frequenting / buying anything to do with these scum. For example, not so many years ago, the Dusit Group was proposing setting up a hotel, golf course, casino, etc., even airport, development down on one of the islands near the falls in Southern Laos. It would have screwed up the local ecosystem big time and led to lots of villagers being kicked off their land. It fell through luckily because of the 97 crash mostly, but it shows how these big hotel chains often think nothing about moving into "virgin" areas, perceived as cheap and available because the local people have no voice.

please keep us updated on events in Mae Fah Luang.

Sounding more like your alter ego "Bitterfly" everyday, eh?

plachon, I would suggest to you, that anyone reading along with our little feud, would get the sense that I'm kicking your ass rather badly; That you are the one who keeps grasping desperately for some kind of magic answer that makes you look a little more learned and a little less pompous, but it keeps eluding you.

As far as Butterfly goes, I have reprinted several posts by you lauding his virtues, so I suppose that I should take it as a complement that you are comparing us. However, I consider myself to be the much more logical of the two.

As far as the French "drowning in bitter wine" bit, I bet you that you are the only one in the room that took that seriously. duh!

Don't worry Georgie, I don't take ANYTHING you say seriously. You've been tying yourself up in more knots than a nest of vipers and spouting more filth and rubbish than the Chao Phraya mouth for months. BUT, you do provide us with a little sport and entertainment to keep the pit as lively as IT Whipperboy intended for it.

So, let the fun and games continue, even if you want to delude yourself about your superior sense of logic. Hahahahahaha. Mouan lai!

Please look out for a story in tomorrow's Bangkok Post where Thaksin proposes cash hand-outs to kamnan and village heads - the core of Thailand's ''grassroots'' democratic system - at the same time as proposing to do away with elections for those posts.

He says they should be picked by provincial panels instead (no doubt stacked by Thai Rak Thai-appointees).

He was speaking at a seminar on the same day as he told an international audience at the bird flu conference of the need for more ''transparency'' (for which read openness and honesty). This man's gall knows no bounds.

Atta boy! You're getting the idea now. As we frequently tired of telling you 6 months ago, this is no ordinary Lee Kuan Yew or Mahatir we're dealing with here, this is Mr Big who bought a country on the open market of a Thai election and now has free reign to do with it as he pleases, and doesn't intend a bit of bother over a few million chickens, ethnic/religious strife in the South and a few dissenters derail his plans. Ever get the feeling the long suffering Thai people have been kipperised?

Me, I'm off for some home baked wholewheat bread and free-range egg, homegrown toms and pickle (homemade, naturally) sarnies. Bon appetit! 

I bet the bread was baked on an alluminium tray (gives Alzheimers) the wheat was genetically modified, the tomatoes contain dioxins from the fertilizers, the egg contains the salmonella bacteria - hope the pickles are OK!

Was going to answer you Pneu, but couldn't remember what the question was. Which reminds me, I must remember to get the wife to change those darned Al baking trays soon.

That's better............(after some organic Lao coffee)........it's coming back to me.

Outside chance the flour's from GM wheat; the toms are grown organically (compost and poo mixture); dioxins are NOT found in fertiliser, but some pesticides, commonly found in Thailand (beware all veggies in the market, folks!); and as Eggwina Currie would happily tell anyone who cared to listen back then - cooking kills salmonella stone dead (like her political career after that blunder). And the pickle, more of a chutney I guess, is sublime. Come over and get a jar sometime.

How was the Kentucky Fried Cack by the way?

Yep, i agree (wow!), nice to know we can find a civil area to just bounce a few ideas around SoCal. How come you sold out on trying to save the world? Are doing a little bit of good on this planet and eating mutually exclusive? Never noticed that MLK Jr, Nelson Mandela or Mother Teresa were starving, although Gandhi could probably have done with a few more square meals. Those MBAs have a lot to answer for IMHO. Never known anyone with one, who's not sadly lacking in the humanities and environmental sciences departments, although I wouldn't dispute your prowess in putting a business plan together. Probably not the best qualified people to be doing any saving in any case, unless it's their own backsides.

Have a fine one, mate.

Well, if it means anything. I think that we made a big mistake in Vietnam. We should have fukced the French and got Ho Chi Minh on our side when he asked for our support. Another chance to export Democracy, and I suspect that he would have been quite happy with a free, democratic Republic of Vietnam.

In fact, everybody would have been happy except for the back-stabbing, phoney-ass French. May they drown in bitter wine.

Sounding more like your alter ego "Bitterfly" everyday, eh? (Sorry Butterfly if you're out there watching, but unable to participate). G-P you once liked to compare me and him, but tell me when do I wish anyone drown, die, <deleted> off or the other vile insults you love to dream up for anyone who happens to think differently from your sad little world of black and white characters, good and evil nations and other absolutes. As I said the other day, the more you scratch at thin air the more the holes in your arguments show. Take my advice and stick to selling things, not twisted ideologies. Peace.

People who user computers shouldn't talk about saving the environment or pretending they're concerned about ANYONE'S health.

Pray, explain yourself Mr Stoney?

Here are just a few examples of scholars who disagree with the "the cynic." It took me about 3 minutes to find them.

There is more ambiguity--more shadows and fog--in the official biographies regarding the period from 1934 to 1938. Recently opened archives in Moscow show that Ho was subjected to Stalinist discipline there. He was required to undergo re-education for failing to display the proper class spirit and identify with the international proletariat.

The responsibility for the war falls to the French and to Charles de Gaulle, who wanted to re-establish the French Empire after World War II. Even the French communists rallied to support this policy. And what about the Americans? Truman abandoned Roosevelt's anti-colonial policy and supported French imperial aspirations. And who undermined the 1954 Geneva Accords and prevented the general elections in 1956? U.S. officials, who also ignored letters from Ho pleading for support.

Ho Chi Minh was one of the most amazing, well-traveled and culturally experienced leaders of this century. I had no idea that he had spent some time in the U.S., working as a steward on a ship so that he could travel and experience other cultures. His reasoning was that he needed to understand other cultures if he was to deal with them. To me, this is the strongest argument in favor of his being a nationalist first and a communist second. As his adventures are chronicled, you realize that this was a very idealistic man who held one idea uppermost in mind, namely independence for Vietnam. Traveling around the world by working as a menial and spending his few earnings to write independence literature does not seem to be the behavior of a communist agent.

The policies of the Western democracies pushed Ho and his people into the open arms of the Soviet Union and China. He took their tanks, ships, airplanes and missiles, but he refused to allow foreign combat troops on Vietnamese soil. And he declined Russian and Chinese advice on how to conduct the war.

Hey G-P, thought you said "scholars" (plural) and you should always reference your quotes to validate them. What kind of educashun did you get me ol' mucker?

But in those days he was dealing with Siamese Thais, rather than the Sino-Thai running the show today. Totally different kettle of fish altogether as to priorities and outlook on life.

That Phaulkon had serious sanuk before they lopped off his noddle.

Enjoy those bird flu-tainted carcinogens from the home of real food, Pneu. Me, I'm off for some home baked wholewheat bread and free-range egg, homegrown toms and pickle (homemade, naturally) sarnies. Bon appetit!

Swine flu

Chicken flu

Bird flu mad cow disease

Whats next - Lamb flu, mad lamb disease, Fish flu, mad fish disease TOT

None of these will happen in Thailand!

Dont forget the prawns from farms - we all will have to become vegans.

No Gent, no need for such extremes. Just insist on buying free range meat products and preferably as close as possible to the point of production. We generally buy our free range chickens directly from the grower and the only time we eat mass produced intensively-raised chickens is in restaurants, where there's not way of knowing its origin. Under no circumstances buy poultry that have come from the big boys of the business, like CP, unless you want a future that is full of epidemic outbreaks and severely decimatated environmental conditions. In other words, don't live in cities, raise as much of your own food as possible and be a pro-active knowledgable consumer. Impossible for most who fail to see the connections between what we eat and what we are.

Don't worry SoCal, i'll still fight my corner when the chips/freedom fries are down in the pit. Guess the subject raised here is just too uncontroversial for the bears to touch (notice the low hit rate) or just a figment of my imagination. But before I drop it into touch, I would dispute your assertion that my perception is just a simple matter of demographics. Economics and sociography, yes, but not a swing towards a young, male dominated society. Sure, there are loads of bored teenagers hanging around in games rooms and snooker halls or in front of the telly, but there were ten years ago too. A break down of the village community institution with urbanisation and failure of parents, schools and colleges to instill social responsibility in their charges would be a more rational explanation. Anyway, with the low birth rate of the last 20 years (post Meechai), and longevity of life these days (if you survive AIDS and roadkill) Thailand is a rapidly aging society with more and more people in the upper cohorts.

OK, back to the real bear pit now of your bete noir subjects. Sorry SoCal, but i tried to abstain and even take the heat off you, but as you can see, it failed to incite or excite..............

Pol Pot in Cambodia - hey Leftie! Ever see the Movie "Killing Fields"?

The list could go on but what's the point. The great silent majority who use rational, pragmatic, objective thinking will, in the end, prevail.

Boon Mee

Pol Pot, yes, I remember him, he's one of your (read, CIA) creations, along with a load of other murderous despots I could name. A great sense of history, sir!

And I suppose you two or three clowns speak for "the great silent majority", huh?

I put this on the other chicken thread, but as this one is getting more action, I'll post it here as well:

The European Union ban on Thai chicken is likely to be lengthy, AP reports the EU as saying. What is more, Thai assurances that everything is OK won't be enough, given the lack of transparency evident in the last week...an independent assessment will be needed, it says.

``Given the unfolding of events in

Thailand last week, the admission by

the Thai prime minister that things were

not as the public was led to believe, an

independent verification of these

measures and its impact in Thailand

will have to take place,'' said Beate Gminder, spokeswoman for EU

consumer protection commissioner

David Byrne.

``In these circumstances .. of non-

transparency .. a complete reliance on

Thai assurances does not seem to be

the best way to go foward. We believe ..

credibility and trust .. can only be rebuilt

by confidence-building measures.''

This is strong stuff from the EU, which only last week swallowed Thaksin's assurances that Thailand had no bird flu. Mr Byrne, who was visiting Bangkok at the time and gave that assurance, is probably feeling mad about being deceived!

Yeah, from where I'm sitting David Byrne really does have egg on his face for being "used" like that. The only thing I can think of when he said those things last week is that he'd just come out of a "Darling is Feeling"-type massage parlour, courtesy of Tox and was feeling so sabai sabai, he could have told you that there are no traffic jams in Bangkok and that there's no such thing as prostitution in Thailand. He should resign pretty pronto too.

I never said there was such a thing as "the good old days", so that interpretation is a figment of your fevered imagination SoCal. Neither was I trying to score a left/right/central fence sitter point. All I'm interested in is whether other long term residents of Thailand have noticed an increase in the phenomena I describe in their area and if so, what do they ascribe it to? I thought it would make a refreshing difference from the interminable US-related postings we all love to hate so much, eh?

Singa, agree with you and Mr. V. The treatment I receive from my muslim friends even surpases Thai standards. That said, it is the same as they say about the kitchen table, do not discuss politics and religion.

Plachon, how conceided can you be, that the political aware ones are the ones that agree with you?

Hey, Pattaya wouldn't exist without the U.S., and a million sex tourists can't be wrong.

"Conceided", wot's that SoCal? And probably is just coincidence.......and no, a million sex-tourists confirming the GIs choice of R&R couldn't possibly be wrong, could they?

Greatly enjoyed the Taki, Mr V, by the way. Is the guy a Greek or a yank, or both? I've simplified everything these days, by just shunning all US exports bar the music and the movies, which are still world class in small, selective doses.

plachon, have you been taking your Alzheimer's medicine?

plachon Posted: Mon 2004-01-26, 02:05:10

You're letting your latent racism shine through again man!

I'll let KevinN answer for me:

KevinN Posted: Mon 2004-01-26, 04:05:16

Do not pay too much attn. everything that some one disagrees with they will call you RACIST anymore,it is one of the most mis-used words in the english language.

More "thoughts" from plachon:

plachon Posted: Mon 2004-01-26, 02:05:10

Hence, there was the vilification of Jews, gypsies, gays, etc. even before the death camps were conceived as the "final solution". Pretty much as we've been seeing in US with Muslims, "lefties" (one of your favourite taunts), and anyone who doesn't happen to fit into the mainstream corporate model.

Yeah, sure, America is just like Nazi Germany! Why don't you look at your own posts for one moment plachon. You don't seem to be trying to make any type of sense anymore. All you are doing now is blabbering.

For example:

And by the way, explain some of the differences between anti-globalization and neo-colonialism protesters getting "smashed in the streets" in Seattle, Genoa, Davos, etc., and Gandhi's salt marches, anti-colonialism protests 60 - 80 years ago.

Yeah, so what?" What does that have to with whether Gandhi's tactics would have worked against the Nazis? Against Japan? What is your point?

Where are adjan jb and ######. They are lefties with brains that are still functioning.

Same tactics, same racially/religiously motivated slurs, same state-sponsored violence against dissenters, just a different era. Should have anticipated that even a merde-for-brains red-neck conservative could not see this not-so-subtle comparison, but then nothing surprises me anymore with you G-P.

I've mentioned this before several months back (funny how things come around huh?), but I'll mention it again as it is directly relevant to this thread. The vast majority of Thais couldn't give a flying f..k who's in power at home, abroad or on the moon as they don't perceive it directly affects their everyday existence. However, of the few politically aware ones I know, they are without exception anti-American in general and were so long before the Iraq war. It has far more to do with their experiences as a US forces-occupied country during the Indochina War than anything else and how the US aided and abetted the Thai military juntas of the time in supressing political freedom and democracy (some things never change, huh?). Anybody with even a hint of political consciousness from that era will recall the anti-US rallies and how Songs for Life artists such as Caravan penned numbers lamenting Uncle Sam's presence on Thai soil. This tradition continued with the likes of Carabao and Pongthep up to the present day, raising awareness that touristic and corporate presence can be as dangerous to "Thai values" as military presence. However, Carabao famously sold out in their nationalistic "Made in Thailand" album by being sponsored by Coca Cola and even though the irony was lost on most, has carried on regardless with albums more recently like "The Ugly American".

Of all my Thai friends, I would regard one Khon Kaen University lecturer as the most politically aware and astute. It's no coincidence therefore that he named his alsatian dog (again not very patriotic, huh?) "Bin Laden", even way before 9-11 happened, and it's the most soppy thing you ever came across. In fact, all bark and no bite.

As nobody seems to want to touch this subject, I'm left with the unmistakeable conclusion that the only subjects worth discussing in the Bear Pit revolve round the US foreign policies, Bush and neo-imperialism (admirably covered on BBC World Service last night). Guess subjects revolving round Thailand will have to wait til the American public have kicked Bush Jr out of office. Tant pis.