dexterm

Well done Pope Francis for encouraging the church to join the 21st Century. 

The next step is to abolish celibacy for priests and nuns, which was only formalized in canon law in 1917.

Wouldn't be surprised at all. Trump is capable of spinning anything in order to win re-election.

European leaders warn US move to reimpose Iran sanctions is legally void

European leaders have warned the US that its claim to have the authority to reimpose sweeping UN-mandated sanctions on Iran has no effect in law, setting up a major legal clash that could lead to Washington imposing sanctions on its European allies.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/20/iran-says-us-move-to-reimpose-snapback-sanctions-is-a-false-claim

So the USA prefers sanctions against its US European allies rather than admit that it was wrong to ditch an anti nuclear weapons deal that was actually working.

So a potential trade war with European allies in order to undermine the current bogeyman Iran is OK, so long as it protects "American interests" aka the racist supremacist apartheid state of Israel and arms deals to corrupt dictators in the Gulf. Beggars belief.

Bizarre times. Bizarre POTUS.

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

It is no obfuscation. You insist on simplistic, partial take on events, presenting them as a full account. I am correcting your misleading narrative. It is not true that Israel did not "do anything" in response - it did the thing it committed to doing, begin negotiations. That was the framework. You're unhappy that it was not different? Alright. But there was no requirement, obligation or anything of the sort you imply. Other than saying it was, in your opinion, unfair, what is your point?

 

As for the Hamas your comments are not based on fact, or reality. For starters, the "majority" you are on about is unclear, undecided and shall remain so until the Palestinians manage to bridge their divide. Even then, accepting democratic results in a peaceful manner and coming to terms with political rivals are not the hallmark of Palestinian politics. Let the "law" deal with them? What "law"? Are you ignorant of Hamas being armed and unwilling to surrender weapons or transfer control of such? Are you suggesting that the PA can take on the Hamas? Or that such a civil war would do a service to either the Palestinians or the prospects of peace? 

 

Both sides have issues. That you recognize only one side's claims and wishes as legitimate is immaterial and unhelpful. Disregarding religious nutters and their agenda (both sides got them), then Israel's issues can be roughly reduced to those related to security and demographics. The latter would require a rather elaborate system of controls and safeguards - doable, though fragile, and probably be an obstacle to the development of the Palestinian state for years to come. The latter would require the Palestinians to drop the Right of Return thing and officially, publicly renounce claims regarding the land. Given the Palestinian narrative and rhetoric, plus religious implications, and the way such things were (mis)handled in the past (re recognition), it's going to be hard to accomplish, IMO. Of course, if it comes to this, Israel will have to overcome political opposition, and deal with the more extreme elements of the illegal settler population. Same as it was on past occasions, but on steroids. All this was covered on past topics.

 

You did not and do not express much issues with oppressive regimes, so long as they tow the line and support the Palestinians in a manner you approve of. These last few topics are a fine example of this, if such were needed. The objections only come up when the diplomatic position shifts. And, of course, not  much said about oppression carried out by the PA and the Hamas vs. Palestinians.

The 67 borders negotiable but make them fair land swaps, East Jerusalem capital of a two state Palestine non negotiable, right return of Palestinian refugees has to be acknowledged.

Of course if Israel says all these things are non negotiable, then share the land, and work out out some modus of living together. I can offer many ways if the topic ever comes up again.

In the meantime all Palestinians need do is stay put. Its their land. 

If the topic selectors presented as a subject human rights abuses in Bahrain, UAE, Saudi, Syria, Iran, Cambodia, China and many other places, just watch me post. But the fare usually on offer is Brexit, Trump, and opportunities for redneck and Islamophobic hatefests

1 hour ago, AussieBob18 said:

You need to read more widely - such as:  https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israel-palestinian-letters-of-mutual-recognition-september-1993

 

You also need to get a grip and slow down - there has been bad things done by both sides - but far more done by the PLO/PLA/Hamas - they are terrorists.

Terrorists plant bombs on buses, shoot roickets into civilian areas, kill people at Munich Olympics, and on and on and on.

 

By the way - hate to burst your bubble - but there are no 'palestinian people' - they are/were Jordanians. They are displaced after the 1967 war and Jordan refused to take their radical islamic terrorists back into their country after the war.  The bulldust rubbish UN anti-Israel resolutions that decided that there is am 'entity' called Palestine that encompasses the West Bank and Gaza Strip and with Jerusalem as its capital, is a total fabrication of appeasement. Seriously - are you saying that Israel must give up all that to obtain peace with terrorists?  Do you possibly think that Israel will ever give up Jerusalem and all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and allow all of its Jewish heritage to be destroyed by the radical islamists?  Mate - the radical islamists should have left Israel alone in 1967 - they were sytamatically destroying all Jewish heritage on 'their' side of the 1949 borders - despite the UN denouncing and demanding they stop. If you think that all borders should go back to some point in time, when will you stop - WW2? WW1? Napolean? Sorry - but the norders are were they are now - end of story - Jerusalem is part of Israel (again) and it always will be in our lifetime.  

 

>>You need to read more widely - such as: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israel-palestinian-letters-of-mutual-recognition-september-1993
..I did. Virtually exact replica of letter on the Israeli Government site. What's your point? 

You do realise that more innocent Palestinian civilians have been killed by fanatical Jewish terrorist settlers than Israeli civilians killed by Hamas rockets?

The rest just lame memes out of the Zionist apologist play book...debunked many times. 

Very handy when Europeans are colonising to claim the indigenous people are invisible. Australia was once called Terra Nullius (Nobody's Land).

Re the population figures for Palestine, try your favourite source.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html

Other than ethnic cleansing Vers 3.0 the 4.5 million indigenous Palestinians is an issue Israel must address to have permanent peace. Not sure that the Emirati and Bahraini dictators are now worried too much about that...too busy counting the $$ from their new trade deals with Israel.

40 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

As usual, skipping over all them points you can't handle, and offering two nonsense/deflection replies to non-issues.

 

I get it you do not like that the power balance between the sides was what it was back when negotiations started, or that it remains so today. Israel is not, and was not, officially committed to the destruction of the Palestinians. The Palestinians, on the other hand, included such points in their creed. That had to go before negotiations were on. You want to twist that? Spin some more? Go right ahead. Israel is not under obligation to negotiate with parties who do not recognize it, in effect reneging on the recognition you yourself claim. As for the the "majority Palestinian faction" - the last elections, years ago, were won by Hamas. I kinda doubt you could substantiate that "majority" comment in any meaningful way.

 

There was no "green light" as claimed. The status of the the Al-Aqsa mosque is unchanged. More fake news out of you. What you further describe regarding the site is hyperbole, and anyway - the "concern" expressed is quite ridiculous (and disingenuous) coming from someone identifying as an atheist.

 

So I get it that in your view, Palestinians are unlikely to partake in such hypothetical attempts? Nothing in the past to suggest this is a reasonable observation? Also, kinda like how you express less issues with these supposed terrorists, and still manage to blame it all on Israel, the UAE and Bahrain.

There has been some crafty rewording in Trump's Plan to alter the status quo of Haram al-Sharif, not the mosque itself Al Aqsa, but now access to allow Jews to pray on Haram al-Sharif itself also.
Full discussion here https://www.972mag.com/temple-mount-jerusalem-uae-israel/ 

Maybe the UAE and Bahraini dictators don't read the fine print, but some jihadist may regard them as giving the green light for the encroachment of the Temple Mount Movement, now supported by Likud. Didn't the 9/11 terrorists mention something about one of their motives being the desecration of holy places, simply by the very presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia. I don't think its too far removed to surmise some fanatic may decide to hit a soft target.

All too crazy for me, but maybe not for a crazed religious fanatic who most certainly won't be me, and nor would I ever meet the nutjob whatever nationality because I won't be on any of their flights in future.

23 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

You make some good points.  However, we will have to agree to disagree about the PLA true intentions, and that the PLA does not undertake terrorist activities - there is ample evidence of the violence the PLA has undertaken, going back to before the Munich Olympics when it became a 'media interest' story.  Certainly the PLA does not control Hamas and it is totally unacceptable to Israel that the PLA demands things, whilst their own Hamas people are undertaking terrorist attacks.  The is ample evidence that the PLA is not united in their approach, and although some leaders seek to obtain peace with Israel, how cab PLA state they willl control Hamas in the future.  Anyway - back to the issue of 'acceptance'. To say PLA has recognised Israel is not correct - they attached caveats including giving back all land to the pre-1967 war (that the Arab countries started) and a major part of Jerusalem - that is not going to happen anytime soon - if ever.

Trouble is, in the 21st century you can't conquer land, take it as your own, and transfer your population there...it is against the Geneva Convention and international law, whoever you think started it...and I disagree with you there, but that's not for this discussion.  If it were allowed, every powerful nation would be at it. Law of the jungle. Chaos.

Your ancestors and probably some of mine too did it and got away with it, because it was centuries ago. Zionist European colonialists left their run on empire about 100 years too late (1897 first Zionist Congress).

If Indonesia invaded and occupied Northern Australia, I expect a condition of permanent peace with them, might be that they give back the land first, then talk about any other issues.

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You keep focusing on the letter, ignoring the follow-up (or lack of) and the aftermath. Spin it whichever way you want, the recognition did not happen in any straightforward way as you try to imply. It's current status is "it's complicated".

 

Obviously, you're going to keep ignoring the fact that the Hamas does not recognize Israel with all that this implies.

 

Israel will not have permanent peace until it will address the Palestinian issue. And the opposite is true for the Palestinian side. That you choose to focus on only one of them doesn't change the fact that its a dual problem.

 

The UAE and Bahrain are just the two latest countries to have have full relations with Israel, joining most of the world. This is offered as perspective, look it up if you're not familiar with the term.

 

You did not have much issues with the UAE and Bahrain being oppressive dictatorships, so long as they towed the line. The moralizing on offer is less principled, and more to do with the diplomatic shift. Same goes for both Palestinian leaderships - no issues with their own oppressive ways.

And you obfuscate by focusing not on the letter but cherrypick on the follow up when Israel did nothing to reciprocate the olive branch gesture. The Palestinian letter of recognition came first. Why did Israel do nothing about it?

>>that the Hamas does not recognize Israel with all that this implies.
..all that implies is that if anyone, Hamas or fanatical Jewish settlers, make trouble after a majority accepted peace agreement, let the law deal with them.

The IRA dont accept UK sovereignty over Northern Ireland, but they can live in peace and respect the Good Friday Agreement. All is possible if you try.

>>And the opposite is true for the Palestinian side.
...what's the Israeli issue???...they want more land? They don't want non Jewish immigrants? They want to remain a Jewish state...that's easy...two states.

>>You did not have much issues with the UAE and Bahrain being oppressive dictatorships, so long as they towed the line.
...wrong! I have criticized Dubai's treatment of foreign workers, and Bahrain's human rights record. Can only address what topics the selectors include.
 

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

The Palestinians did not offer peace. The Palestinians, at best, joined other initiatives for peace - not so much their own designs and motivation. As for the Hamas, you lie. The Hamas did not offer "peace", and does not even recognize Israel.

 

I do not claim that negotiations are impossible, that's you taking my words out of context. My comments are clearly referring to specific circumstances and conditions making them impossible at this time. Doubt you didn't get it. Try as you might, my positions are not similar to Netanyahu's I'd appreciate if you cease with this bit of nonsense.

 

I did not "conveniently forget" anything. I'm well aware of facts. I also do not feel that each and every detail needs to be rehashed on all posts. All the more so as it's been addressed numerous times. Israel was not required to recognize a "Palestinian state's right to exist in their own land". You're just tossing in loaded, misleading and irrelevant comments in an attempt to obfuscate.

 

Israel engaged the Palestinians several times, along lines which are pretty close to those included in the Arab Peace Initiative. As for "conveniently forgetting", you habitually gloss over the fact of Hamas rejecting the Arab Peace Initiative. I don't know that the UAE or Bahrain "betrayed" - that's your vehement, emotive framing of things. Seeing as you refuse to address points of view acknowledging countries may have other interests or priorities and other interests taking precedence over the Palestinians', not sure what sort of discussion you expect.
 

You blame Israel's "intransigence", so on. The same could be applied for the Palestinian side as well. This is not a one way street, other than in your rants.

I was not stereotyping. I was not engaged in bigotry or racism. You brought up "security threats" to the relevant airlines. It was a sad comment, which you will not explain. Let's try again - if there are such "security threats" related to these diplomatic moves, who do you expect will be behind them?

>>Israel was not required to recognize a "Palestinian state's right to exist in their own land". [in 1993]

...but Hamas is required to do now what Israel did not do in 1993 or since. Got it. Not enough for you that the majority Palestinian faction sincerely offered the olive branch.

Gulf Air, Emirates, and Etihad may now be a security risk, because some nutjob Islamic fanatical terrorist   objects to those dictators giving Israel the green light to allow fanatical Jews to walk all over Islam's 3rd holiest site, which they frequently do in their hundreds and sacrilegiously illegally pray there while the IDF turns a blind eye. As an atheist I think its all madness, but for some religious fanatics these icons are worth dying and killing for. Who knows what nationality they could be. Of the 9/11 terrorists, 15 were from Saudi Arabia, 2 were from the UAE, one from Lebanon, and one from Egypt.

3 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

"They recognised Israel's right to exist over 30 years ago."

Absolute Total Rubbish - and yet again expoused by yourself in a false anti-Israel anti-Trump argument.

 

Let me give you an example of the truth.  I accept your right to exist, on the basis that you give me all your money and land.  That is NOT an acceptance on my part that you have the right to exist.

 

In the years ahead your false arguments and statements will be washed away in the waters of history. The PLO or PLA (same same) will find itself marginalised and treated with total distain by most in the Arab world.  Aside from one specific country and a few fellow anti-Jewish terrorist groups in other Arab countries, the PLO/PLA will be treated with the contempt they deserve. Peace will never come to Arab countries until they fully accept the State of Israel. and 'splinter' groups like PLO/PLA are put in their place (like ISIS was).

 

When Trump wins the election, other Arab States will follow the lead. Then the POL/PLA, and Hamas, and Hezbola will be dealt with - by the Arab States (unfettered by any UN rubbish). 

 

Before you shout rubbish, perhaps you should look at Yasser Arafat's letter itself from the Israeli government's own archives! With an offer like that PM Rabin should have ripped Arafat's arm off in shaking it and got down to the business of making a permanent peace both sides could have been enjoying for the last 30 years.

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

https://mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/israel-plo recognition - exchange of letters betwe.aspx

There will not be a permanent peace until they have resolved the problem of what to do with the 4.5 indigenous Palestinian inhabitants, ruled over by Israel for 53 years but without equal rights.  What's your solution, AussieBob, for dealing with indigenous inhabitants?

UAE and Bahrain, have just legitimized and normalized Israel's brutal 53 year old illegal occupation...imprison 12 year old children, detain Palestinians without charge or trial indefinitely, humiliate and murder Palestinians at checkpoints....so it's business as usual, as far as the Emirati and Bahraini dictators are concerned....just like being at home.

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Coming from someone who denies, rejects, or pours fire and brimstone on any narrative, opinion or view not in line with his agenda and creed - the "hear both sides" is preposterous and disingenuous. Same goes for the nonsense comment about criticism - over the years, you've made hundreds, if not thousands vehement rants criticizing Israel - but do go on about "stifle and censor". Coming from someone who refuses to even acknowledge criticism of the side he "supports", let alone discuss it, that's again a preposterous and disingenuous comment.

 

What "bargaining cards" do you imagine either the UAE or Bahrain held? Why do you think that putting their own interests first is not a valid position? Why ignore the fact that Abbas practically severed ties with the UAE a while back? Why ignore that the UAE agreement took the annexation drive off the table?

Pot, kettle, black spring to mind. Strange coincidence meeting you here every time I write. I have never advocated censorship of any opposing views, as some trolls do on this forum in an attempt to silence any criticism of Israel. If Israeli apologists employ disinformation I correct it, often with proof and links. On a public forum it's up to everyone to present their case similarly, with valid arguments and evidence.

Bahrain and UAE have just undermined the united Arab Peace Initiative, the globally accepted formula for permanent peace between Israel and Palestine. You know they have when Trump gloats about it.

12 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I wouldn't know what personal attack you discerned in my post, unless commenting on your posts and highlighting issues therein gives you offense. As expected, not practicing what you request - see your previous reply and my comment.

 

You claim to "condemn" most of the world countries, based on the fact that they maintain relations with Israel, and expect to be taken seriously? Or not be seen as extreme? Good luck with that, you'll need it.

 

I am aware of your insistence to ignore Hamas positions and policy, or to try and minimize their place in Palestinian politics. That's another misleading and unrealistic attempt to foist your agenda on facts. No actual reasoning is given for this, just deflections. Even the link provided does a poor job making your point. It mentions that "it does not explicitly supplant the previous charter of the founding fathers", and that's true - the previous charter was neither cancelled nor officially shelved. They simply have two of them now. The other point is that the new charter does not actually recognize Israel, and maintains the notion of armed struggle, liberation of all the area in questions with an end goal of Palestinian dominance.

Presenting this as somehow supportive of accepting of the the Arab Peace Initiative is false.

 

That you can acknowledge the existence of extremists on one side only, and try to obfuscate, deflect and misrepresent the fact that there are similar elements on the other side, is not an indication that you are here to discuss anything, let alone rationally. 

 

Your last comment is again a a poor deflection and a personal attack (whatever happened to that "keep it civil" on the top...?). You alleged a security risk to flights between the countries. Now, who will do such a thing? According to your narrative the Palestinians are not into that sort of thing, or am I wrong? I did not, obviously, made a claim about all Palestinians being terrorists - just another nonsense out of you.

When peace is offered by Palestinians including Hamas (who reject only the racism of Zionism as I do..they have nothing against sharing the land with Jews), you claim that negotiations are impossible, the same wild card that Netanyahu uses. 

But conveniently forget to note that Israel has never recognised a Palestinian state's right to exist in their own land. Smacks of hypocrisy somewhat.

Nor has Israel ever considered negotiating the Arab Peace initiative that Bahrain and UAE have just betrayed. Done just the opposite in fact..expanded settlements to make a permanent peace solution far more difficult.
Israel's intransigence and insisting they want their cake and eat it too are the problems. 

Your denial of racist bigotry is lame.
You sarcastically wrote : In your version of reality the Palestinians and their supporters aren't into this sort of thing.[terrrorist attacks on civilian flights]   ..stereotyping.

12 hours ago, Morch said:

 

My observation is neither fallacious, nor is it nonsense. And unless by dealt with you mean deflected, no such thing happened. When one self proclaims to be a "humanist", and yet repeatedly broadcasts that his pet political issue precedes all human rights considerations, that's hypocrisy. I refer to a specific, easily noticed pattern manifested only in conjunction with this conflict. As for the last word in your deflection post, guess you'll ask to keep it civil down topic. Another instance of hypocrisy.

 

 

Verbose and virtually unintelligible English.
I can't work out whether you are attacking me just for the sake of attacking me or defending Netanyahu's embrace of the Bahraini and Emirati dictatorships, or both. 

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Well, professional or not, an agitator your certainly are. There aren't all that many examples in this forum of posters who for years focus on a single issue, treat it with extreme bias and do so in such a vehement manner. Considering that you dismiss, disregard, denigrate and scorn any views not fully aligned with your own, or any position failing to embrace your agenda, kinda doubt you're here to "debate" or discuss, more like preach a creed.

 

Concern about Palestinian human rights? Only if the violations are by Israel. If it's done by either one of the Palestinian leaderships, silence. Same goes for actions by various Arab governments and forces vs. Palestinians in their own countries. And never mind that Palestinian human rights seem to trump any others - not much complaints, if any, about human rights violations if the relevant regimes "support" the Palestinians.

 

The insistence that there is only one face to Zionism has been addressed and debunked numerous times. For obvious reasons, you cannot and will not accept or even acknowledge that. The Arab Peace Initiative, even if it was to be embraced by all sides does not imply Zionism's end - that's your own interpretation and it does not have much to do with anything. You one-state nonsense is all the more misleading, in that you imply its up to the Israelis to make it work, rather than it being a two-sided effort. Given that you do not actually comment (whether due to agenda dictates or just being uninformed) about Palestinian politics or the Palestinians' capacity for exhibiting the democratic and political standards required for such an endeavor clearly shows your bias and dishonesty.

I am active on forums, call it agitate if you feel that has more negative propaganda effect for you, because I am angry at the atrocities committed on a daily basis by the IDF and Jewish settler terrorists against innocent Palestinians. It is evil.  When you know something is wrong, you have to speak out against it. Yes, that's my creed. I want to see Israelis and Palestinians living in peace in neighboring states or in a single state. 

>>The insistence that there is only one face to Zionism has been addressed and debunked numerous times.
What an incredible joke, coming from a man who refuses to define Zionism in any form whatsoever.
For the record, the Zionism I want to see go is the racist version, the one enshrined in Israel's Basic Law, the one confirmed by Netanyahu when he said 'Israel Is the Nation-state of Jews Alone' when asked whether Arabs are equal citizens.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-is-the-nation-state-of-jews-alone-netanyahu-responds-to-tv-star-who-said-arabs-are-equal-citizens-1.7003348

And that racist supremacist ideology is the one that UAE and Bahrain have just endorsed. Shameful.

1 hour ago, JusticeGB said:

If Obama had achieved this everyone would be singing his praises. Iran is the country that finances terrorism in the middle east and the only country in the middle east doing anything about it is Israel. 

I admire many things Obama achieved, but he blew his chance of ending the conflict. I would certainly not have sung his praises for the OP Bahrain and UAE betrayal. After such a promising start..he even scored a Nobel Prize for doing nothing apart from an inspiring speech at Cairo University in 2009. Then endured being lectured to by Netanyahu in his own Oval Office in 2011.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-campaign-video-boasts-of-lecturing-obama-in-the-oval-office/

He probably kept schtum in his second term to give Clinton a chance for the Democrats by not upsetting the powerful Israeli lobby. Sent John Kerry on a few futile peace missions, then too little too late he warned Israel it was heading towards a single apartheid state. The only concrete action he ever took was in his final month abstaining on the UN vote to end Jewish settlements...how bold! Obama could have really made a difference in the Middle East but wasted his 8 years of opportunities.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/23/us-abstention-allows-un-to-demand-end-to-israeli-settlements

If a body count of innocent civilians is the criterion, Israel easily wins the Terror State of The Middle East title.

52 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

 

Does anyone read the long anti israel polemics? I could go back 2 years in this forum and they would be a rehash of the same  statements and themes.  I also note the double standard. The countries are suddenly illegitimate because they recognized Israel, but they were legitimate when they exchanged ambassadors with the PLA?    It is telling though when some in the forum get  upset because some prefer peace over fighting.

 

I am under no illusions. There won't be any magical reconciliation nor an increase in visitors. The Gulf states now get to formalize their ongoing exchange of military intelligence and push israel to  dispose of a common enemy.  Bahrain  does nothing without the permission of the KSA, so this was approved by KSA.  Oman should be next in line.  I expect hat we will soon see some announcements in respect to African countries.

 

It's called peace. The arabs may have tired of westerners imposing their  political ideologies.

And it is not meaningless. The Lebanese  refused help from israel dismissing the gesture after the   port explosion and instead asked for money from the gulf states and western countries. This may drive home a point to lebanon about getting their affairs in order.

 

This occurred during trump's presidency. He made more progress than the previous Obama and Bush administrations in this regard.  jared gets bragging rights. He said he would get some progress and he did. peace is better than war.

Not sorry you can't have  violence.

On a public forum it is better to hear both sides of a narrative, although I realise some would prefer to stifle and censor valid criticism of Israel. It's not obligatory to follow a thread or even a member.

I don't regard what Trump has encouraged as "progress". Rather Bahrain and UAE have now thrown away any bargaining cards they had that may have led to a peaceful two state solution. Wonder what Bahrain and UAE will do when Netanyahu tries to rekindle his love affair with the far right to win the next election by throwing his promises not to annex in the trashcan. They may have the good grace to blush slightly when their new best friend stabs them in the back too.

44 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Bahrain and Israel: UK responds to announcement of normalisation

Yes, another backstabber who turns a blind eye to Palestinian suffering. And worse still coming from a country that is responsible for the whole conflict.

42 minutes ago, Nout said:

I have been to Bahrain. It is one of the most free countries in the world, not just the Arab world. There is a minority group of Shias inspired to make problems by the unelected  repressive Iranian Mullahocracy. They do not want freedom for Bahrainis. The want a theocratic,  autocratic DICTATORSHIP.

What a joke! Tell that to Hakeem al-Araibi the soccer player and countless other Bahrainis like him
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakeem_al-Araibi

He was imprisoned and tortured by the thugs of your benign Bahraini dictator Khalifa focusing on his legs so he couldn't play his beloved sport any more, fled as a refugee to Australia, and arrested in Thailand on honeymoon last year on a trumped up charge that he was attacking a Bahrain police station... his only alibi..he was being watched by millions on TV at the time playing football.

Eventually football loving fans world wide saved him.

That's the sort of person that is Trump and Netanyahu's newest most beautiful amazing dictator.

26 minutes ago, Nout said:

A comment from a professional agitator and pro Palestinian ultimately seeking the destruction of Israel. Zionism is not racism. The UN made this clear in the 70s. This view of Zionism is thinly veiled anti semitism and the view of Islamic extremists and socialist agitators. That this view is becoming more mainstream do not make it true. It indicate how arab oil money has perverted western political thinking among the younger generations.

Hogwash. I wish I were paid even the minimum wage per hour defending Palestinian human rights... I'd be very wealthy indeed. My contributions to the debate are purely altruistic. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing is my credo.

I want only the destruction of the racist supremacist ideology of Zionism. I'd be very happy if the Arab Peace Initiative, that Bahrain and UAE have just undermined, resulted in a democratic predominantly Jewish state within the 67 lines. I'd also be very happy if Israel ends up as a truly democratic single state, where provisions could easily be made for it always to be a haven for Jews persecuted anywhere in the world.

Please don't play the hackneyed anti Semitic card. There isn't a racist bone in my body.

51 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

Another day, another rant. And yet another whine about unelected dictators, and human rights violations - issues that are less disturbing for poster if unelected dictators in question fall in line with his agenda and politics, or if they are Palestinian. Coming from a self-proclaimed "humanist", its as hypocritical as it gets. 

 

There is nothing in this agreement, or others, which "endorses" the Israeli occupation and/or treatment of the Palestinians. Following your "reasoning", most countries in the world "endorse" the same things, what with having full relations with Israel.

 

Trump using these diplomatic maneuvers to bolster his campaign? Sure. But that's pretty standard for many politicians near elections time. I doubt that your objection to such things is principled, or that you had issues with these when they were more inline with your agenda and politics.

 

Netanyahu can say pretty much anything with a straight face. That's what he does. He's way better at it than Trump, too. Feigning surprise or outrage over his statements is fine, but he's been at it for years, so should be familiar by now.

 

The Arab Peace Initiative was not accepted by all Palestinians. Hamas rejected and still rejects it. Also, it is only in your rants that conditions in the ME remained the same since it was aired. Those more attached to reality may notice some of the countries involved are not in any position or state to uphold things now: Syria, Lebanon, Iraq - or even the Palestinians themselves, are either too divided or at a disarray. You try real hard to paint it as solely being up to Israel, but it is not so.

 

Your imaginary boycott claims are amusing, while not being believable or even rational. Other than that, I kinda doubt the sort of advocacy is allowed on here. Security risks? How come? In your version of reality the Palestinians and their supporters aren't into this sort of thing.

And another personal attack from you. Keep it civil please.

>>Following your "reasoning", most countries in the world "endorse" the same things, what with having full relations with Israel.
...correct, and I condemn them too, on this forum and elsewhere. No dichotomy there.

>>The Arab Peace Initiative was not accepted by all Palestinians.
The usual attempt to obfuscate by playing the Hamas wild card. The Palestinian Authority led by Yasser Arafat accepted the Arab Peace Initiative as did his successor Abbas who officially asked U.S. President Barack Obama to adopt it as part of his Middle East policy.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1039866.html

"Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders

“Hamas advocates the liberation of all of Palestine but is ready to support the state on 1967 borders without recognising Israel or ceding any rights,” Meshaal said in Doha on Monday announcing a new policy document.

The new document states that Hamas is not seeking war with the Jewish people - only with the racist supremacist ideology of Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine.

I'm sure there are elements of nationalist and liberation movements all over the world that have not got all that they wanted, but can still accept a peace agreement. The Good Friday Peace agreement in Ireland springs to mind. The IRA do not accept UK sovereignty over part of Ireland, but they can live with it.

There are many Jewish ultra nationalists would not accept any form of a Palestinian state even after a peace agreement. The Israeli PM Netantanyahu won't. He barely tolerates Trump's patchwork quilt of Palestinian bantustans in a "non state".

>>In your version of reality the Palestinians and their supporters aren't into this sort of thing.
..racist baloney. You should be ashamed of such bigotry. Not all Israelis are terrorists either.

59 minutes ago, Poet said:

Everyone, regardless of politics, should celebrate the normalization of relations between countries in that godforsaken region. This is the World's other cold war, based on politics that became redundant decades ago and barely-veiled anti-semitism. We should all celebrate its thawing.

Of course, as with anything involving Trump, and especially with the election weeks away, many will rush to distort what this means. So, let me put this into practical terms:

It will be possible for regular citizens to fly directly between Bahrain and Israel.

It will allow businesses to trade. It will allow universities and scientists to share research.

It will allow farmers to benefit from better technology and grow more food.

It will allow those will cancer to benefit from the best medical care in the region.

Most of all, it will allow people to interact with their supposed long-time enemies and see that they, too, are humans.

Like any other countries, the Emirates and Bahrain have problems but they evolving and improving over time. This agreement is part of that. They are tearing down a matrix of nonsense based on propaganda, hysteria, and fear.

They are going to interact with neighboring countries on their own terms, not on the basis of what the Iranians say.

They are not going to remain on a permanent war footing to accommodate the needs of the Palestinian leadership who, from all parties and in all decades, have been outrageously corrupt and always made the worst decisions for the Palestinian people. During years when their economy constantly teetered on the brink of collapse, Yasser Arafat accumulated over $3 billion, and the current lunatics are even worse.

Ignore those who rush to attack this because Trump's people engineered it. This is bigger than the petty politics of America. What has been achieved is already momentous but if Saudi does come onboard it will be truly historic, and pretty much every country in the region except for Iran will follow. Bang! Middle-East peace: Achieved.

Sure, at that point there isn't really any way to avoid giving Trump the Nobel, and, yeah, sure, the horrified reactions in the American media will be quality entertainment. The bigger point, however, is that, at last, something truly good is happening in 2020. Treasure that.

 

 

It will also allow ....Israel to continue its brutal apartheid occupation of 4.5 million Palestinians to which the dictator of Bahrain is now turning a blind eye, in order to feather his own nest. Shameful.

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You are quite capable of putting up with dictators and human rights violations, so long as they support the Palestinian in a manner fitting your agenda and politics. You do not even have all that many issues with the Palestinian leaderships acting in a similar way.

Fallacious nonsense dealt with previously but now trolled again by you. Of course one can abhor dictators, but that does not mean automatically hating every single thing a dictator does. I despise the other lunatic world leader, without mindlessly rejecting everything he does. That's idiotic.

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

Israel HAS reciprocated when PM Barak and president Clinton offed the Arafat and the  Palestinian something like 95% !!! of land to establish a Palestinian state which Arafat has flatly refused,

The Palestinian don't want peace they're only posing and pestering as if they want but their happy to be stuck for ever as the poor needy always crying for help LOOSERS....

Disinformation
Based on the Israeli definition of the West Bank, Barak offered to form a Palestinian state initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is, 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 10–25 years, the Palestinian state would expand to a maximum of 92% of the West Bank (91 percent of the West Bank and 1 percent from a land swap).[4][6] From the Palestinian perspective this equated to an offer of a Palestinian state on a maximum of 86% of the West Bank.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#Territory

No deal was made at that round of peace talks. Israel did not recognize a Palestinian state. Pity Israel could not concede the rightful 100% including landswaps. They already got to keep all the land they grabbed beyond the Mandate in 1947. But of course they wanted even more. Still do.

Yes, the Palestinians are poor and needy, and Israel as the occupying power has a duty of care under the Geneva Convention to look after them. If Israel ended apartheid and made Palestinians equal citizens they could all prosper and pay taxes.