Indo-Siam

One item of information - according to the TAT (TAT Statistics), the number of international tourist arrivals into Thailand during 2002 was 10,874,978.  So there were at least that many entries and exits.  I would have to think that non-tourist arrivals must push that number up to at least 11 million (although maybe the TAT scores every arrival as a tourist?).

Looking at the graph, it is interesting to see the effect of SARS.  Not too much doubt that SARS badly hurt this sector.

I have never before initiated a thread on this forum, so I thought I'd see how the process works.

So -  I will pose several questions in ignorance, and seek informed input.

We all know that some number of foreigners have been arrested/detained and face punishment for - knowingly or not - having used unofficial procedures to obtain fraudulent entry and/or and exit permits for Thailand, which resulted in illegitimate stamps appearing in their passports.  (I know of no more neutral way to state this situation).

First question:  How many total foreigners do informed people on this board believe have 1) already been arrested;  2)  will be arrested later;  and 3) would ultimately be liable to arrest, if all such practitioners were identified?

Second question:  Following from the first, of all foreigners entering and leaving Thailand over say the past three years, what are your thoughts concerning the percentage of the total that were - knowingly or not - using documents with fraudulent entries?

Third question: Of the total of foreigners who have used services that provided fraudulent immigration stamps, what - in your opinion  - is the breakdown between:

1)  Naive tourists, who got misled by crafty Thai con artists, and had no clue that they were becoming enmeshed in fraudulent  activity, and used such services only once, or infrequently.

2)  Expats or frequent visitorts who used these services regularly, but were under the impression that they were fully above-board - effectively being fooled by slick Thai con artists.

3)  Expats or frequent visitors who normally followed the official way of doing things, but under some sort of unusual circumstance, took a known risk, and knowingly used a dodgy visa service just once, or very infrequently - hoping for the best.

4)  Well-informed expats who regularly used these services despite knowing that they were performing an illegal service, but who wanted to "beat the system" and not have to make legal (and comparatively expensive) border runs.

5)  Subset of group 4 who laughed at fellow expats who made real visa hops, and chided them for being unimaginative dullards.

I can honestly say that I have no real idea concerning the actual numbers.  I am convinced that there is a drastic difference of opinions/perceptions concerning what percentage of "busted individuals" fall into each of the first four categories under question 3.

Comments from all are welcome.  All I ask is that you answer the questions by providing your own opinions, and not take issue with anyone else's opinions.  We are talking about opinions, and each individual is the absolute and total expert on what his own personal opinions are.

I am particularly interested in seeing input from the "silent majority" or viewers who rarely post - and particularly those who are long-term residents here who are very familiar with the historical availability of these fraudulent services - and the common practices of frequent visitors and other expats.

Thanks to all who participate.  I hope to have my level of understanding improved, with respect to the perceptions of the "average Joe" reader here.  It has been suggested to me elsewhere on this forum that I have extreme and way-off-the-mark perceptions, and I am eager to recalibrate myself back to the center of the bell curve.

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

www.indo-siam.com

Rayhan -

Answers:

1.  Yes, you may open a Trading company.  Two possible options are:  Thai Private Co. Ltd. and Thailand Representative Office.  The first gives you more flexibility, and allows you to generate income inside Thailand by invoicing Thai clients.  The second allows you to escape Thai taxes, and allows you to obtain a work permit without hiring 4 Thai employees - but it prohibits you from earning income from within Thailand - all funding must come in from company head office overseas.

2.  If you start either of the above two types of company structures, you will be able to obtain a non-immigrant visa, and upon entry into Thailand, you will be given 90 day entry permits.  If you obtain a work permit, these 90 day permits can be extended up to one year.

3.  Obtaining Thai citizenship (and thus a Thai passport) is quite difficult.  I am not well-informed about the details.  I believe you must have lived here as a resident for 10 consecutive years, and I know that you must pass a fairly difficult test of Thai language ability - speaking, reading, and writing.  

If you send me a conventional e-mail, I can send you back some summaries outlining specific requirements for accomplishing company incorporation and obtaining a work permit.  

Good luck!

Steve

Indo-Siam Group

[email protected]

Hey dropout -

You write:  "Perhaps you should also consider the fact that if no less than 6 people have posted regarding how your comments are objectionable, perhaps those people are, god forbid, onto something and you need to reconsider what you are writing and how it is being interpreted rather than selectively quoting what you feel is not objectionable in your posts."

I have looked at the profiles of my critics.  As best as I can tell, only one of them was even a registered participant on this board before September.  Well, I began posting on this board in June - a few days after it was launched.  I was a paid advertiser on the main Thaivisa site starting I think January of this year.  I wrote the text at the "Incorporation" section of the main site more than one year ago.

I have looked at the critiques by newbies who have - as best as I can tell - never made any substantive, informed postings to contribute new facts to the board, and I have looked at the Private Messages I have received, and the readers of this forum who have visited me at my offices to introduce themselves.  What I have concluded is that my approach is effectively self-filtering - the people who come to me in positive frame of mind all seem to be serious people, looking for effective, no-bulls**t assitance.   The whiners all tell me that my attitude is turning them off, and I will starve because they will take their business elsewhere.  Hey, don't let the door hit you on the a** on the way out.  I don't need delusional customers with selective hearing.  Thailand is tough enough to do business in as a foreigner, without further mental encumbrances.

I will now retire from this discussionb -  as no new ground is being covered.   So - you can have the last word.  

Indo-Siam

Dropout -

You write:

"... you have concluded that in the very near future people coming to Thailand on 30 day entry on arrival will probably..."

In have never "concluded" anything, or stated that anything is "probable."

My words, in the third paragraph of my initial post on this thread, were:

"When I hear that some border posts have been photocopying entire passport contents, and requiring in-bound turn-around practioners to sign each page showing a 30 day "visa on arrival", it seems apparrent that at least some border posts are preparing to execute a change in policy. Such preparations do not mean that it will happen."

Please read that last sentence again.

Question - have you read the reports on this forum about the photocopying of passports?  What is your explanation for that?  Maybe they are just trying out a new photocopier on random visitors for entertainment?

You are simply wrong concerning my thoughts about the potential for habitual VOA border turn practitioners to lose that privilege.   I have no thoughts one way or the other.  If Thailand suddenly denies Cambodians the right to enter Thailand, I similarly have no thoughts on way or the other.  It does not affect me, nor my clients, nor my friends.  I can see how it might affect some populations.  I fugure that if it happens, affected parties will adapt.  Those that prepare for such an eventuality ahead of time will probably fare better than those who don't.

The new increased immigration fees do affect me and my associates - and we have to adapt - or exit.  I did not come onto this board and  seek solace from VOA practitioners, for the terrible state of affairs that has befallen non-immigrant residents.  But I don't start blaming you for this situation, or acuse you of reveling in my (fairly trivial) misfortune.

Steve

Indo-Siam

Taxexile -

You mention a crusade against tourist visas.  I have never heard of such a crusade.  I have never heard of any changes anywhere concerning issurance of Thai tourist visas.

I have also not yet heard of any changes in 30 day "visa on arrival" entry permits at Thai border crossings.

So - you and I must be talking about different planets.

Eddieee thinks your comments were spot on.  So there must indeed be two parallel universes.  I am not in whatever universe you two live in.  That must be the universe where you guys frequent the www.dodgythaivisa.com discusssion board!

You mention amnesty - so maybe you are talking about criminal immigration violations - Thai characterization, not mine.  But why would you call those "tourist visas" - I don't get it.   A tourist visa, or a VOA, is a legal authorization, obtained the way million of tourists obtain them for entry into Thailand every year.  A forged entry permit stamp in a passport, issued by a dodgy/crooked forgery ring has little in common, and is something that only a small handful of travelers ever have anything to do with.

You seem to feel that obtaining illegal forged documents and using them to cross international borders is a trivial matter, and a common practice.  Well, we probably have different mental images of this scenario - based on our different universes of residence.  The way I figure it, maybe 0.005% of all Thai entry stamps placed into foreign passports at Thai border crossings last year were forgeries.  This percentage of arriving visitors failed to meet Thai legal requiremrents to cross the border - and perhaps 500 (??) have thus far been caught.  Meanwhile,99.995% of all visitors followed normal international border crossing procedures, and had no problems.

Now - you think that the world is going to go into a tizzy about 500 criminals (albeit some of then being naieve) being punished, after 4,999,500 law-abiding travelers had no problem.

Again, that must make sense in your alternate universe.  It is laughable in the universe I live in.

You also write:

if that were really the case then why do the thai authorities spend so much time ,effort and money warning foriegners about the jewellery scam,where falangs are cheated while buying fake or undervalued stones

The answer is because tourists who attempt to buy jewelry are paying for what is routinely a legal service or good.  If they are cheated, that is bad.

If these same tourists try to buy forged immigration papers, and use them at a Thai border, they are breaking the law.  Thailand cares about their law-breaking, and is not too concerned about the fact that some Thais supported the process by which the foreigners pursued a criminal undertaking.   The Thias do get punished - arrested and fined.  But they are evidently not considered a big threat to Thailand's well-being.  This is not my personal endorsement of them - this is simply the outcome as we all seem to see it.

I guess that I do not suffer fools gladly.  That's probably somehwat of a weakness.  Your weakness seems to be assigning meanings to words, such as calling increased prosecution of users of forged immigration documents a "crusade against tourist visas".

Steve

Indo-Siam

My critics on this thread are some of the strangest folks I have ever interacted with.  My initial post on this thread led of with (these are the exact lead-off words):

I certainly do not think of using border turns and 30-day "visas" (actually entry permits) on arrival as illegal.  I see no chance that anyone would ever be arrested for this.  What is certainly posible is that one day they will simply deny practitioners any further entries.

I have then been accused by about six people here of making noises to the effect that such crossings were illegal, or inferior, or somehow less than wholesome.  Other people have said those things - not me.  I do not share those views.

All I said was that 30 day VOA rules are probably most liable to be easily tightened in a national security situation.  Lot's of possibilities - deny consecutive uses beyond "x" number of instances;  require a minimum of "x" days outisde the country; reduce VOA duration to 15 days; disallow use of VOA at land border crossings (folks who cross borders by land are probably not as big spenders as folks who arrive by air - no value judgement there, just a statement of fact - it is not easy to transit Thailand's neighbors by land, if arriving from outside the region).

I make no claim to correctness of these possibilities to future scenarios  - I simply state them as possibilities to consider.

I have never started a thread on this entire discussion board.  But I will now commit to opening one thread.  On November 1st, I will open a thread in this section entitled "Visas on Arrival - the Aftermath".  Whatever the outcome, I will create that post, and we can all toss around the facts as they actually play out.  I have no idea whether any VOA rules will change by that date.  

Any problems with that?

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

bazza, tax exile, and the rest of the malcontents -

Where have you ever gotten the idea that I consider 30 day entries on arrival to be bad, or low-class, or anything else, in and of themselves?

I have probably entered Thailand at least 50 or 60 times using entry permit on arrival - at various times for business or vacation visits, or commuting in and out when I was employed in a regional role here.

My post in this thread simply addresed the issue that 30 day VOA seem to me to be more likely to be eliminated, at some point in the national security response spectrum.

I mentioned martial law and expulsion of ALL non-immigrants - why did you clowns not come back and browbeat me on that?

I clearly stated my belief that there is a spectrum, and all possibilities lie somewhere on that spectrum. And I said that I see evidence that the place where Thailand presently is on the spectrum has - on its next notch toward tightening - the (perhaps temporary) elimination of 30 day VOA.

Where do you guys get the impression that this is somehow making a value judgement about the "quality" of 30 day VOA, and the people who use them?

You guys give me crap when I bring out experiences.  But you seem to doubt that I have some idea about what I am talking about.   I was in Southwestern Korea at the time of the 9-11 attack, attending a tradeshow.  I flew back to Bangkok a day later.  Quite a change boys - in airports that had just a pair of security guards and bored-looking immigration officials patrolling when I arrived, there were now several platoons of soldiers placed in various places inside the airport terminal.  Security and document inspections (and personal and baggage inspection) standards went up about 800%.  It took hours to clear immigration.

I've gone in and out of something like 32 countries, crossing borders maybe 400 times (the vast majority were visas on arrival) - Africa, Europe, North America, South America, and Asia.  I was an international sales manager.  So I have seen a few different sceanrios.  Does that mean I can predict what Thailand is going to do about 30 day visas with near-certainity?  No it doesn't.  Does it mean that I can probably offer an intelligent proposal for what might happen - maybe make the "short list" of theories?  I dunno - I can just try.

For the record - I have no feelings one way of the other about the value of 30 day VOA vs. 60 day tourist, vs 90 day non-immigrant entry permits - or the people who use them.

I do think that the moment Thailand decides to tighten immigration access - particularly in reponse to a perceived increase in threat to national securty, the 30 day VOA is likely to be a casualty.  Since I have lived here (arrived to stay April 2000), I have already seen the 30 day VOA eliminated for a number of nationalities - so I know that this is something that Thailand has changed in the past.  You guys simply can't get it throgh your heads that this is not a value judgement - this is a matter of adjusting routine security levels.

Steve

Indo-Siam

Dropout -

Do me a favor.  Look at my post which proposes that 30 day entry permits might cease at any time, as national security concerns play a role in Thai immigration policy.

Please tell me whether you agree or disagree that the continual availability of 30 day visas on arrival might be somehow be affected by terrorist-type events that unfold here in Thailand.

If you disagree, then state what you think might impact future availability - maybe phases of the moon?  Or perhaps the price of camel dung in Egypt?  We are all perhaps interested to hear your alternate theory.

If you agree with me, then what problem do you have with the idea that it might be good to be prepared for a situation where you are refused reentry on a border turn, and told to go get a proper visa? Like, maybe if you make your border run the day after JI blows up some hotel in Bangkok?

I live in the adult world, where I assess the future, and adjust my preparations for the most likely upcoming changes in how that world works.  If Thai immigration laws say that starting 1 January 2004, I must have XXX amount of money in a Thai bank, I make plans to comply with the rule.  You and your buddies just come on here and piss and moan about how awful it is, and how Xenophobic Thailand is, and how Thailand will go down the tubes without your beer money proming the economic engine.

You are the same sort of clown who will be back on this board 60 days from now crying about how evil the Thai immigration guys were for making you stay in Malaysia an extra two days to get an embassy-issued tourist visa AND YOU DIDN'T EVEN  HAVE A FRESH CHANGE OF CLOTHES.

Give me a break!

Steve

Indo-Siam

Dropout and bazza -

You guys are again mixing up the concept of a theory explaining something, and the righteousness of the underlying sitaution.

I do not actually know the Thai law about what crime is committed by someone such a travel agent, who points non-Thais to a document forger somewhere, and charges for that advice.  Or someone who handles the physical flow of passports from other countries.

But - you guys simply seem clueless about how the legal world works.  Have you guys ever appeared in a Thai court?  I have - on August 5, 2003, and I lost the case (labor court - severance pay claim).

Tell me, guys, do you sincerely think that it is a felony in Thailand to assist in the physical movement of a non-Thai passport between point A and point B inside Thailand?  Remember, this is not a Thai document - it is a collection of paper pages issued by a foreign nation.  I'll clue you in - it is unlikely that Thai lawbooks have it as a felony to move papers around inside Thailand. I doubt that there is any law against this.

Next - do you think it is a felony to point foreigners toward a document forger?  Here, I don't know. I have to assume there is some law being broken.  But - probably not a felony.  And probably hard to prosecute, without evidence.

Maybe you guys know something I don't - perhaps some Thai travel office was forging stamps in the back room on Khaosan Road.  I haven't heard about this.

But - the point is that to prosecute people, you have to cite a specific black-and-white law that is being broken - and such laws talk about physical acts and artifacts.  And you have to be able to prove in court that the law was broken - using physical evidence.  Testimony uncorroborated by compelling evidence usually doesn't even make it to court.

It seems clear to me that - however badly your feelings are hurt by this fact - the Thai travel agents or whomever was the farang's initial contacts did not actually break any significant laws, or did so in a way that did not provide clear and compelling evidence to support presecution in court.  

I understand that the Immigration officials who have been directly involved in forgery have been punished fairly severely.

Let me try to explain this another way. If I pull out my USA passport and a set of pens, and I personally forge a Thai exit and entry stamp in my own passport, I am probbaly not breaking any Thai law.  Thailand does not care if I doodle in the travel document issued by a foreign government.  I am breaking no Thai law by forging things into my passport - or even you passport (I probably am breaking US law - which does care about US passports).  Where and when I do break the law is when I try to cross a Thai immigration checkpoint using that forged document.

So -what laws did the Thai travel agents break?  I presume that in many cases, they charged clients for arranging and facilitating the movement of, and the placement of forgeries into, passports - a service that they actually delivered - exactly as promised.  They delivered the service they were contracted to perform.

Did they "guarantee" the passabilty of their work? Probably.  So - is failing to fulfill a service guarantee a felony?

Has any "busted" farang tried to get his money back from a phony visa service, and had the refund refused  I have not heard of this happening, but I don't know.   Most guarantees for services involve maximum liability up to the amount charged for the service.  No service firm offers unlimited liability.

Guys - you both seem to be fairly uninformed participants, with simplistic approaches toward the adult world.  You do not seem to know how law works, or how to analyze a situation from a legal standpoint.  It is probably best for you to not wade too deeply into legal discussions until you gain some more understanding of how legal systems work.

But - even annoying people like you have the right to post on this board - and cheer each other on.

If you want me to applaud - go find the applicable sections of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code that you feel were broken, find out if they are felonies or misdemeanors, and report back to us.  

I really doubt that the Thai legal system will care very much that some guys who call themselves bazza and dropout think that it SHOULD Be a felony to lead poor farang astray.  Thailand probably gives a toss about whether farangs are cheated while obtaining illegal services.  Read that again - you guys think people in Thailand should care about non-Thais being cheated while receiving illegal services.  

#### - I personally don't even care particularly much when illegal drug users get overly diluted cocaine, or pedophiles get their wallets stolen while they are in some underage brothel, or illegal bombmakers get their hands blown off because someone sold them blasting caps beyond their expiration dates.  People who engage in illegal activities should not expect too much support from the legal authorities, when they get cheated while breaking the law.

Steve

Indo-Siam

Dropout -

I have no idea what you are talking about.  I have made one post on this thread.  Go back and read it.

I said I think there is nothing wrong, bad, or illegal about coming in repeatedly on 30-day entries on arrival. Go read it - 'got it?

I also said that I think this manner of entry is the most vulnerable to being restricted when Thailand starts ratcheting up the strictness level of national security.

What problem do you have with that?  Do you disagree with something I wrote?  If so, please feel free to pick out a point and show a counteragrument.  Don't just cry to me that I'm blackballing anybody.

You and a lot of other posters who address me personally in posts seem to misunderstand something fundamental about my approach toward board discussions.  I sometimes get abrasive with whining, crying, moaning types who come on here to enagage in group teeth-gnashing and hand-wringing - but otherwise make no original observations, suggestions, or any other useful contribution to knowledge.

Some posters just come on here and spout outrage.  Well, there is nothing wrong or illegal about that.  But - don't go into a tizzy when someone comes on and tries to lay out a logical explanation for WHY things are happening.  Particularly when it is laid out as a theory - with a proposal for how to predict what might happen in the future.

Invariably, the whiners who who came back browbeating me NEVER take issue with a specific theory or observation that I write.  They treat me as if I am the guy writing the Thai rules. All I do is state a hypothesis, and state supporting evidence for my theory.  This is called the scientific method.

Unless I missed something. my contribution to this thread laid out a proposed theory explaining what is actually going on, and what is likely to happen next, and why, that no one had previously proposed.  I did this as a contribution to the discussion - hopefully to draw out more observations that might give even better insight into the workings of the Thai system.

Now - please tell me what you find wrong with that contribution.  Don't come after me - go after what I wrote, and tell me where my evidence is faulty, or my logic is bad, or where you have a better theory.

And - please go read the first 30 words in my post, and tell me how you could address me in your post as having said the opposite.  

You and several other of your compatriots on this board appear to have great trouble compartmentalizing the various aspects of immigration.  You mix up other threads about people getting busted for illegal immigration activities and use of forged documents with unrelated discussions like this one - about the near-term likelihood of changes in the availabilty of legal 30 day entries on arrival.  

I do tend to make disparaging comments about people who have no substantive legal presence here, yet linger on in Thailand, and spout off on this and similar discussion boards about how critical the continued presence of them and their cohorts are to the continued survival of the Thai economy.  This is just so laughingly ridiculous that I cannot resist taking a poke.  They open threads specifically to proclaim how indispensible they are, and to criticize Thailand for imaginary crimes against civilization.  Well, when pompous n'er-do-wells stand up with a chip on their shoulders to claim how important they are, they better be prepared for some catcalls.

Thanks,

Steve

Indo-Siam

I do not think you have any reason to worry.  Taking a vacation trip between jobs - as a tourist - is not unusual - and nothing wrong with making that tourist trip to a country where you will next be working.  Just think of it that way (even though you are probably really traveling just for the job interview).

As your next step, getting a non-immigrant visa using a letter from your prospective employer will be easy.  Getting a job with work permit and long-term entry permit extension will be the challenge - beware being hoodwinked in this area.  Very few arriving teachers or "financial counselors" are entering jobs where they will be given a work permit.

Good luck!

Steve

Indo-Siam

I certainly do not think of using border turns and 30-day "visas" (actually entry permits) on arrival as illegal.  I see no chance that anyone would ever be arrested for this.  What is certainly posible is that one day they will simply deny practitioners any further entries.

A true "visa" issued by an overseas diplomatic post is authorization to enter Thailand from a fairly high legal authorizing entity (check that Garuda emblem).  Lacking this, the granting of an entry pemit upon arrival is purely at the discretion of the border official, or his upward reporting chain.

When I hear that some border posts have been photocopying entire passport contents, and requiring in-bound turn-around practioners to sign each page showing a 30 day "visa on arrival", it seems apparrent that at least some border posts are preparing to execute a change in policy. Such preparations do not mean that it will happen.

As I see it, Thailand practices a logical spectrum of policy implementation - they ratchet their procedures up or down, as the situation dictates.  One week, there are no blue-uniform special police roaming the BTS stations - the next week they are patrolling in pairs, and the following week it is single policemen.  Starting last week, two blue-uniform police with M-16 rifles started protecting the J.W. Marriott - one patrols the two sidewalks (Suk and Soi 2), the other guards the delivery ramp next door to Blue Wave Pool Bar.  Security levels ramp up and down.  The same probably applies to border crossings.

If - next week - a bomb levels the All-Seasons Place Conrad Hotel, resulting in a terrorist cell with members from 10 countries being busted in Kanchanaburi, and all are found to have entered at various border crossings using passports that were full of fake entry and exit stamps - how long do you figure it will take for border crossings to shut down entries without a formal visa?  And I'm talking about minutes or hours, not days or weeks for Thailand to react.

I will bet that Thailand Immigration has a full contingency spectrum in place - and probably known and rehearsed at some level - including totally sealing the borders - depending on what is called for.   Remember - in the hours after the 9-11 bombing, the entire US shut down all civial air traffic, and sealed its borders.  If the US could do it, so can Thailand.

At some point, martial law can be declared, and non-immigrants told to leave the country within 48 hours.  Is there ANYONE here who does not believe that such a contingency is in place, however deeply buried?  I think that the chances of this happening are very small, but it is not out of the realm of possibility.

So -what is the chance that 30 day border turns will be eliminated?  In my view, this is the very next level on the scale to be implemented, from Thailand's present posture.  Why do I say that?  Because it seems to me that a number of border crossing points are already dusting off that procedure, and preparing themselves for implementation.  What will it take to trigger execution?  I can't say.  I'll bet that a surface to air missile bringing down a plane at Don Muang will do it - almost instantly.  I'd say there's maybe a 40% chance this will be implemented for 30 days in early October, just as extra assurance against problems during the APEC ministers meeting (and - trust me on this - Thailand could give a flying <deleted> about whining by anyone who uses 30 day border turns - we are less than even background noise when compared to Thailand's interest in having an uneventful APEC conference).  I will even go so far as to say that 10 days either side of the main APEC Conference, Thailand could give a toss less about any tourists arriving, other than APEC visitors.

So - everyone who lives on 30-day turns needs to ask themselves - "What do I think the likelihood is that something threatening will happen during the next 30 days?".  And - do I agree with Indo-Siam and his ilk that indications are that one of the very next tightening steps on the scale is likely to be to suspend (temporarily?)  issuance of 30 day entry permits on arrival?

It's for each individual to make his own call.  I've got a work permit and employment-based non-immigrant extry permit extension - I only have to worry about a blanket expelling of non-immigrants.  If I was on something as thin as my 35th consecutive visa on arrival, and watching the guys with M-16's patrolling the J.W. Marriott, and figuring that some jerk of an aspiring muslim activist is likely to at least toss a grenade or launch an RPG round sometime during APEC - just to demonstrate potency - I would be making my own contingency plans for a change in immigration practices - and for my next border turn, I'd be carrying a bag with a change of clothes and some toiletries, just in case I needed to stay and get a real tourist visa.  

"Up to you"

Steve

Indo-Siam

I am far from an expert on Thai, but going through this entire thread, I was most struck by the omission of a couple of fairly obvious observations (at least to me).

First - in casual routine daily speech, it seems to me that most Thais frequently omit the personal pronun for "I" altogether - getting into a taxi, a Thai starts out simply "bpai...(wherever)".   Going to get a bite to eat - its is simply "bpai ghin khao" - again, the first-person personal pronoun is simply omitted.  Ordering something - "Khor nam bplao kaeow nung, khrap" - again, the first person singular is simply implied.

I have on numerous occasions listened to chatter going on for several minutes without detecting any use of the first person pronoun in any of its forms - by any Thai speaker.

Also, no one has mentioned the use of "Pee" or "Nhong" as second person pronoun.  In daily speech bewteen persons familiar with one another, at least as far as I have paid atrention, these are almost always used - with or without using an associated name.  In my office, the "pee Nok" type use of the nickname is only used across the room, to distinguish between several individuyals that are older than the speaker.  If only two are in the room, it is always just "pee".

None of the comments I make above really apply to written or formal speaking. And I notice that Thai's almost never use the "Pee" or "Nhong" qualifiers when speaking with or about a non-Thai.  But it is almost universally used in the local "neighborhood" and office speech situations.

My comments are not intended to contradict any of the comments already posted - most of which are somehat familar to me already (I have never previously even considered forms of address between gay lovers).  I just wanted to throw in a few comments that have not already been beaten to death.

I now invite my comments to take their beating - I would be interested in hearing the thoughts of others concerning the aspects I raised.

I am always interested in gaining more insight into the Thai language.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

I have never heard of any situation in which shareholders were later required to be assembled by authorities.  Historically, at least in recent times, there have been no "musters" of shareholders.

I can attest personally to having to "muster the troops" - that is, assemble all my employees for scrutiny - this being by an Immigration inspector checking out my own entry permit extension package (all of this was part of his process of extracting a bribe).

As a practical matter, should your bookkeepper indicate that a dividend distribution is called for (based on your reported finances) , you really have no choice but to "virtually' convene a shareholders meeting, declare and vote on a  dividend distribution to be made on a certain date, and then pay out the appropriate total amount - and pay it to yourself.

The documentation trail is now complete - there is record of the required meeting, and evidence that money was distributed.   Based on your reported sceanrio, it is very unlikely that any shareholder is going to emerge from the bushes to challenge your records.

For the record, I have never heard of "nominee" shareholders (strangers, paid to lend their identities by proxy) ever causing anyone any grief.  It is always the non-strangers  (partners, wives, buddies, family-members) who cause the problems.

Good luck!

Steve

Indo-Siam

I do not know this to be a fact, but I will throw out the following as a likely scenario:

The laws being broken were Thai Immigration laws, and the Thai Immigration laws, by statute, only apply to non-Thais.

As far as I know (which is not conclusive) all arrests and detentions of foreigners have been by Immigration Police, and incarceration has been in an IDC.

I also believe that there have been punishments within the Immigration Police Force - sackings and postings to "inactive positions".

So - as best as I can tell, Thais running services were guilty of a misdemeanor crime - and were prosecuted for that crime - and fined.  Farang were also guilty - but of a different class of crime - immigration  crime - during a time of world crackdown and scrutiny on global travel, heightened by an even higher regional state of alertness.

Basically, if jaywalking is a misdemeanor crime, and you get picked up for it, you get a small fine.   But if you are jaywalking, and in apprehending you, you are found to be in violation of immmigration law, you face an entirely different prosecution - at a much more serious level.

It is all about law.   The USA is using this particular type of legal fine-tuning in its detention of prisoners at Guantanamo.  Putting aside any questions about the wisdom or righteousness of the US position, the legal position is tough to argue with because of issues of jurisdiction and legal "standing" in that particular patch of Cuban terrain.

So - if my guess is correct - Thailand is not applying different standards to different parties guilty of the same class of crime.  The two populations are committing different classes of crime.   Everything they have done is probably correct within the context of Thai law.  The only real criticism I would levy would be that Thailand failed to enforce the law adequately for many years - allowing a large population of lawbreakers to accumulate - and is now snatching up all and sundry who have evidence of past crime in their travel documents.  Perhaps there is no statute of limitations on immigration violations in Thailand?

I have posted my theory above.  I would be interested in hearing alternate theories.

Personally, I am not very interested in reading the 1,000th post by anyone that simply expresses visceral outrage - again and again, using different words.  But I am interested in analysis and new information that provides insight into how things work inside Thailand.

And - I welcome counter-arguments that tear down a proposed theory - including ones that I propose - by showing conflicting evidence, or errors in observation or logic.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

Hi !

This is uncertain terrain.   Commerce Ministry (who run company registrations) don't seem to care.  Immigration doesn't seem to care.  And year-to-date (2003), Labor Ministry has not been asking for bank statements - just a letter signed by company director, stating that X million baht capital has been paid in.  So - it boils down to - how do you feel about submitting a false statement?  A few months back, this was unremarkable.  Now - this is not such a "gimme" issue.

Popular press is giving indications that "the system" will soon require proof of pay-in of capital (as has been the case in years gone by).  As noted in the inquiry, pay-in of capital is different than normal business revenue - in that it is not associated with invoices.

My firm's business has always focussed on compliance - hence my firm has not supported attempts to secure work permits without paying in capital.  But I am fairly certain that this has been possible - including very recently (within past 60 days).

Here is what I do know - regardless of what happens during first year, after you produce your first set of company financials (at end-of-one-year point), this document becomes a key part of the decision processon for renewal of work permit.  If your asset statement and balance sheets indicate that your company is realistically not capable of paying your salary, and four Thai employee salaries, your work permit renewal is likely to be denied.

And - in general - Thai auditors (licensed professionals who must sign off on the annual audit) are not inclined to falsify the books for average farang business owners - if caught, their professional careeer is over, and sensible ones will not take the risk.

What this means is - after one year, if your company books are "strong" and show a good financial position - you are unlikely to experience problems renewing a work permit - even if you cannot document pay-in of capital.

Conversely, if your company's financial condition is clearly flakey, only the fact that you demonstrate compliance with legal capitalization requirements is likely to salvage your position.

In short - I cannot conclusively say what the current situation  is, if you fall short.  If any problems arise, it will tend to be with Labor Ministry in their approach toward work permit renewals - not in relation to initial incorporation of a Thai Private Co. Ltd.

Did that "answer the mail?"

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

Hi -

My answer is:  Hire a Thai to make the post office runs for you every day, with return address to a cooperative business near your home - ideally a tailor shop, or a handicrafts or souvenir store.  'Might cost you a thousand baht per month or so - I don't know what you could work out.

I know that every day in Bangkok, several thousand Thai companies are mailing out stuff all the time.  With all mail going overseas, your activity might (in this post-9-11 world)at some point trip a surveillance monitor.  I suspect that as long as you aren't shipping Semtex, or drugs, or RPG rounds, or kiddie porn, no one's going to care too much.

Even if you just played out the hypothetical scenario at face value,  on any given day, I'd scarcely think they would arrest you.  They would perhaps give you a "desist" order.

I believe that there is a Thai law on the books concerning tax liability for income generated through on-line sales - and I think it specifically addresses income from overseas.  My only source for this is my memory of reading a Bangkok Post article sometime earlier in 2003.   Going forward, this might be more of an issue - due to loss of tax revenue.  But this would probaly not come into play until you started showing up with a truckload of packages every day.

My question - what is the manner in which the hypothetical shipper maintains his legal presence in Thailand, entry-permit wise?

Again, I know nothing special, but it sure looks to me as if Thailand is in the process of making endless visa on arrival turnarounds a thing of the past.  They are almost certainly setting up the preparations to clamp down on this practice - whether they will pull the trigger or not, I can't say.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

Looking over the various threads in this section of this discussion board, I read things about Thai Xenophobia, and unhelpful embassies, and posters repeatedly lamenting about "What is going on here?"

I have no particular inside knowledge, but just looking over the entire affair, it seems fairly obvious to me what is happening.   Here's the story:

1.  For a long time, Thailand has been reknowned as an easy place to get into, and to illegelly stay within.

2.  Along comes 9/11, and the Bali bombing, and the Jakarta bombing, and finally the arrest of Himbali.  

3.  As all these events are transpiring, and with the APEC heads of state meeting upcoming, Thailand starts receiving heavy press and diplomatic criticism - your airport is too vulnerable, your border is too porous - Thailand - YOU REALLY MUST DO SOMETHING TO TIGHTEN UP YOUR IMMIGRATION PROCEDURES - really!

4.  The various foreoign emabssies here in Thailand are all turning in to the Foreign Ministry foreign diplomatic requests that Thailand crack down on illegal entries and overstays, and also fake document mills.   Overseas powers are merciless - they keep hammering Thailand, basically overstepping Thailand's national sovereignty by telling Thailand how to run its internal affairs.  Well, it is "war on terrorism" time - no time for kid gloves.

5.  Taksin and his cronies finally have had enough with all the international pissing and moaning directed at Thailand.  I can almost see it now - Thailand asking all its critics "Do you really, REALLY want us to crack down on phony documents, and illegal immigration violaters?  Are you sure that's what you REALLY want?"  And the various big governments all respond with a chorus of "Yes, yes - crack down on all the dodgy activity, stamp it out right now, CRUSH IT!".

6.  So, Thailand's government puts the word out.  Immigration rules and immigration-related document forgery are now areas of SUPER emphasis.  No more farting around.  To make the pont clear, Taksin sacks a few immigration colonels - just to show that he's serious.  And - the Immigration Police apparatus goes into high gear.

7.  Result - violators get busted in record numbers.  No slack means - huge numbers of foreigners getting nicked.   This is what all the overseas powers were SCREAMING at Thailand to do - tighten upn its borders.  So Thailand did what it was asked, as a gesture of capitulation against overwhelming international pressure.

8.  Now, all the punters who are getting picked up are blaiming Thailand, blaming their embassies, blaming the newspapers for individually persecuting THEM.   Well, guys, don't take it personally.  You are just pawns in the wider diplomatic game.  Guys are getting arrested and prosecuted because their very own countries and embassies INSISTED that Thailand crack down on illegal immigration document mills and fake visa services.

9.  I think the Taksin government is - at the international diplomatic level - doing  great job of teaching all its critics an unforgettable lesson about seeking to interfere with Thailand's sovereignty, and criticize Thailand.  It is also amassing some inexpensive bargaining chips to use in securing diplomatic concessions for itself.  Unfortunately, a lot of mildly illegal foreign chaps are suffering the fallout - at  level that is probably more appropriate for true terrorists.

All of the above is just conjecture, but it seems pretty obvious that this is close to the mark.  As a result, I think its a waste of time to put too much more long-term effort into protesting the current state of affairs.  I suspect that over time, things will slide back a few notches lower on the strictness scale, but that - in general - the days when Thailand ran a Swiss cheese immigration operation are basically over.  And it is NOT Taksin's original doing - he was pushed into it by the big global powers  leading the war on terrorism.

My two satang.

Indo-Siam

andreasbkk -

The Labor Department cares that your company is legally formed - your company must have a registration certificate, and tax ID card.  That is as far as the Labor Depatment cares, with respect to company status.

They then care about registered capital and number of Thai employees per foreign work permit issued - you seem to have those areas under control.

The idea that the Labor Department will scrutinize your company's listing of shareholders, nationalities, and share percentages in assessing your work permit application is - well from my experience at least - ludicrous.

But I am totally baffled as to what motivation your attorney would have in giving you this bizarre advice.  Might I ask: what is her suggested remedy to the situation?  There must be more to this scenario than has thus far been outlined.

Has your company perhaps used up work permit authorizations by providing work permits to one or more foreign investors?

I would be happy to have my firm handle your work permit processing.   No aspect of a work permit application process requires an attorney.

If interested, please contact me at [email protected].

Good luck!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

www.indo-siam.com

FWLAD -

All the insults I have spewed?   I have disparaged dodgy characters and whiners.  So - which are you, insofar as you feel I have insulted you?

If you are not a dodgy chacter, or a marginal character, or a whiner - then you should not have any feelings about what I say.

It is starting to appear that when I mention the marginals, a lot of people on this thread suddenly self-identify with that characterization, and take offense.

Well, for anyone who self-identifies with those terms - I guess we won't be tossing back any beers together.  

And I sure won't be setting up companies and work permits for driftwood - but then neither will Greg at Sunbelt.

I welcome and applaud adventurous souls who decide to exit what Thoreau called "lives of quiet desperation" - and step out into the world, and carve their own paths.  And I'm not talking about superhero types.  My firm is presently supporting startups or work permits for companies involved with education, oilfield services, water treatment services, internet security, foreign aid, import of household appliances, manufacture of precision metal parts, and exports of handicrafts.  In discussion stage with companies involved with rare books, and photography.  We've done websites for electronics distributors, consulting companies, pool halls, restaurants, real estate firms, fire safety equipment, and - well, I'm not even sure how to describe    Combatball - a toy?  We run the back office for a Thai cigar importer/distributor.  We produce books for an overseas trade organization.

I can assure you that the range of people who step up and make the plunge is very diverse and very variable in personality, financial wherewithal, nationality, and educational background.  But - none of them are sweating out fake entry permit stamps.  I wonder why that is?  Just lucky, I guess.

I represent one perspective - one alternative toward addressing the problem of being pushed out of Thailand as undesirable.  

It appears that a lot of folks here just HATE being reminded that there is an effective alternative to letting yourself be persecuted in Thailand for being a drone (1.  A male bee, especially a honeybee, characteristically stingless, performing no work, and producing no honey).   Drones basically exist to mate with nubile females.  I am sure that several folks around this board will self-identify with that definition - and yet resent being called drones.

Well, as nice as a drone's life is for a brief time, the working hive has no long-term use for such creatures.  

bazza - I know a bit about the rise of Nazi Germany.   It seems ludicrous to me to try to compare Thailand in 2003 with German National Socialism in the late 1930's.   I keep hearing in this thread that I sound bitter.   And then someone comes on here and says that Thailand putting pressure on unemployed foreigners to hit the road is like Naziism.    What sort of twisted bitterness translates Thailand in 2003 into Germany in 1939?  I see Thailand as a broadly tolerant place, full of generally happy people.   Compared to neighboring Burma, Laos, and Cambodia, Thailand is a roaring success.   It is certainly not a perfect place - corruption is widespread, education and income levels have a lot of room for improvement.   The 30 baht health program is a bad idea - but Canada tried a similar thing a few years back, so that's not a uniquely Thai idea.  But this is an upbeat place - and it appears to me to be steadily improving.

Back to the topic of the thread - is Thailand shooting itself in the foot by making foreigners with no gainful, legal employment here keep on moving?   And by reacting over-zealosly to immigration violators, immediately in advance of a significant meeting of  Asia-Pacific national leaders?

Many of you say yes - Thailand is making a big mistake, and will lose significant prestige, goodwill, and tourist revenue.

I say no - the people being affected are - as a group - economically, politically, and influentially insignificant, and their persecution will have no detectable impact on Thailand's well-being.

That's not a statement that makes a personal attack on any one individual who is having immigration problems.   That's an evaluation of a whole population of people who have several basic characteristics: one significant one being a tendency to perist in staying here with no gainful, legal employment in Thailand.

If you disagree with my assertion - fine.   In my replies on this thread, I have repeatedly stated that we will all be able to see who was right pretty soon - in 2, 4, or 6 months.  If Thailand goes through an economic downturn during the next 6-18 months, it will be strong ammunition for your case - and I will look like a pretty inept forecaster.  If Thailand prospers, it will basically invalidate your "sky is falling in Thailand" predictions.   This is pretty simple stuff.   Thailand's fortunes go up, down or stay the same.  You win if it goes down,  I win if it stays the same or prospers. Do you still think you have a strong position?

I didn't start this thread.  Until people starting addressing me personally, I made no comments directed at any one person here except Heng.

I like disscussions.  I like tossing different views on a subject into the arena, and letting the arguments battle it out.  I am not a wizard - I can't see into the future.  I can only craft my arguments, and then see if they can survive in the competition.  Good ideas and arguments win, weak ideas and arguments go down in flames.

This section of the Thaivisa forum is about "Thai visas, residency, and work permits".  That is the core piece of my chosen field of business in Thailand.  So I actively participate in this forum.   I normally find threads here from people asking questions to which I can provide well-informed answers.

Well, right now, the ENTIRE page of discussion topics is about the tightening immigration situation.   So I put my comments into a couple of threads.  I thought that was what this board was about.    

I guess it is time to retire from the discussion - it doesn't seem to be covering much new ground anymore.

So - you can have the final word.

Indo-Siam

Taxexile -

Is business a bit slow?  Not a bit.  I presume that you realize that my firm's core business is helping foreigners incorporate businesses here, obtain work permits, and long-term entry permit extensions.  I kept waiting for somebody to point out that I have a biased position on the issue - I make a living out of helping people make themselves welcome here - by going into business here.

While it may appear that I am "wasting a lot of time" on this board, that is not actually the case.  There are already people who have read this thread and contacted me to start getting info on how to make themselves legal here.  So this is one of the ways I prospect for business - or create business.

I am a spokesman for the idea of reacting to the present Thai governmental posture - if you now find yourself being pushed toward the exit door - by doing a makeover to make yourself welcome in Thailand.   Is that self-serving? - I suppose it is.  But this seems to me to ABSOLUTELY be one of the alternatives that should be included within a balanced discussion.

Am I a little bit abrasive - I guess so.  I'm really just trying to break a few folks out of "helpless deer in the headlights" mode.

And - for bazza - I was just talking hypothetically about all those OTHER dodgy guys.  I'm sure that if Thailand focused a strong spotlight on you and your activities (whatever those are), you would be welcomed with open arms, as a very beneficial foreigner who should be respected and honored.  That would be what would clearly set you out as a non-dodgy guy.  Do you not agree?

I have an idea - why don't some of you guys start a website called www.dodgythaivisa.com.  It appears that you could quickly gain a pretty good audience, from the amount of traffic I am seeing on the various discussion boards.  'Just kidding (and maybe you thought I have no sense of humour?).

Cheers!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

[email protected]

www.thaistartup.com

Taxexile -

I have no problem with folks wanting to live the good life - savor the fruits of their earlier labor, etc.

This thread was about "Thailand making a big mistake shoving valuable economic contributors out the door."

'Guy comes on and posts this proposition on a public DISCUSSION BOARD.

Another poster named Heng states a fairly brief dissention - in a fairly light-hearted way.  I've said nothing up to that point.  I look at both arguments.  I then side with Heng -  and I briefly lay out my assessment of what is going on.

I do use the terms "dodgy characters" and "marginal characters".  Well - I live vicinity lower Sukhumvit.  My business is on Asoke.  Every week I see hundreds of foreigners.  I see tourists, I see hard working people, and I see idle people.  Well - I have been listening over the past month - as the pressure mounts on a certain population of foreigners.  And you know what - I've yet to hear a tourist here on vacation whine.  I've also not seen any serious businesmen here raise an eyebrow - they could care less. If I line up all the whiners I have heard - you know what - not a tourist or a working person among them.  Is this entire population a bunch of bums - no.  Is a good portion of this population a bunch of "marginal" characters?  Yes it is.  And you must be joking to suggest that the affected population does not include a significant collection of "dodgy" or "marginal" souls.  Just about EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER THAT IS DODGY that I know about is in this population.  But - not 100% of the affected population is marginals - I agree on that point.

So - let's just write off all those who we would both class as marginal drones (I assume that even you would agree that there are a fair number of low-life farangs crawling around).  Then we focus on the rest.  What is their future?  Well, here is what I see on this board:

1.  Guys suggesting letter-writing campaigns to shame Thailand into letting everybody just hang out here.

2.  Guys blaming embassiesfor letting all the decent citizens get hoodwinked by dodgy visa busineses that everyone felt were legitimate.

3.  Guys on here trying to wish into existence an amnesty campaign

4.  Guys like bazza trying to do I don't know what - form a hand-wringing circle?

And so on.  A bunch of folks who are doing everything but moving themselves into one of the categories that Thailand is allowing to stay.

So - I stand up and say - "Hey, you can always take charge of the situation yourself and create your own legal presence here" - but it takes work, and some risk.

And then you come along and brow-beat me for being a hard-ass.  I don't know how you were raised.  I don't know how bazza was raised.  I was raised by parents from two sides of the Atlantic ocean who both watched their entire childhoods go down the tubes due to a worldwide depression, and who then both got sucked into a world war that exposed them to misery and death all around them.  And they sucked it up and survived, and they then raised me.  And they taught me to go out and take the world on, and don't whine.  If you don't like something, then go and do something about it.  Or leave.  Don't whine.

So - anyway - I'm not trying to be anyone's role model.  But I'm also not afraid to say to the dodgy guys who slid by for so long - hey, buddy, tough for you.  Don't come to me for sympathy.  

My comments are critical of dodgy guys.  If you aren't a dodgy guy, you shouldn't care what I say.  If you are a dodgy guy, then - well, I guess my comments are kicking you in the face.   Why not change your spots?  Get a job.  Make yourself desirable to Thailand.  That seems like an almost infallible solution.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

Hey bazza -

Clearly, what you were after in making your post was for all your mates to come wipe up your tears, and pat you on the back, and tell you that you are a poor, mistreated, misunderstood fellow.  You clearly have no interest in anyone who has an alternate view that does not support your little crying circle.

What is so strange about a country saying:  come here as a genuine tourist - no problem.  

Come here in retirement, after a lifetime of work - no problem.  Come here and be gainfully employed - no problem.

The key word is employment.  Employed persons are welcome - short or long term - as tourists, or as non-immigrant residents.  Tourists are generally people who are on vacation from jobs that they perform elsewhere.  

But - come here and try to stay as an unemployed person - well, we aren't interested in having you stay here.

It's simple - if you are legally employed here, you don't have a problem.   If you aren't employed here - what - are you saying that I'm supposed to be impressed with an unemployed guy crying in his beer?

I know EXACTLY what it is like to stand in Bangkok and say - well, I've got enough cash in the bank to live here for about five years doing absolutely nothing - living off stored fat. No risk.  Or - I could use that money to create a business, and provide myself a job that I literally created myself.  But this requires taking the risk of losing all.  I took that risk.   It has not been easy.  I have worked every day for 18 months.  I've been squeezed for bribes, I've been sued (and lost) in labor court, I've been forced to relocate my company offices because my landlord sold my building and new owner said "move".  I've had customers default on payments.  I've abandoned one business direction after a Thai business owner in my intended industry took me to dinner and made it clear that if I wanted to play in that industry, I needed a strong Thai partner - him.  I've had computer records wiped out by a virus after letting a subscription run out on an anti-virus screen.  I've taken my lumps.  I don't whine about the problems - I suck it up, always telling myself "That which does not kill us shall make us strong."  

Go read this: Man in The Arena

You seem to be the spokesman for the "do nothing, and then cry when they tell you you're not wanted" faction.  Your argument is that Thailand is hurting itself by putting pressure on all the unemployed foreigners to leave.  

I know about being unemployed as a short-term, interim condition of life.  I don't know much about making it into a permament lifestyle. Maybe you can tell us more about what that is like.

You asked the question - I rephrased it:  Is Thailand shooting itself in the foot by giving all the unemployed farang visitors the boot?  I then answered it by saying "I don't think so."

We should know more by about the end of this year.

You want to start a business?  Come see me.  I'll do my best to help you succeed.  But - frankly - I don't have much time for "those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat".

Indo-Siam

Heng - I tend to agree with you.  Bonafide tourists are unaffected - no fee changes, no hassles getting visa on arrival.  Come here, spend your money, and leave.  No issue.

Serious businessmen are also relatively unaffected - people working for multinationals, or entrepreneurs who are legally employing Thais - both have to pay higher fees, but nothing too brutal, compared to eleswhere in the world.

The people who are affected are all the dodgy characters who cannot get or create legal jobs.  They think they are crucially important to keep the system running.  We'll soon see - because it appears to me that the pincers are slowly closing, and all the "drones" are about to find themselves looking for a new place to hang out.  Will Thailand collapse?  Will all the bargirls and publicans starve?   In my opinion - no.  Expat ranks will thin a bit.  But otherwise, in the big picture, the disappearance of 40,000 or 50,000 marginal characters will probably not even be noticed.

But - lots of tears and gnashing of teeth.  This too shall pass.

Indo-Siam