johnnybangkok

You are more than welcome to bury your head in the sand, stick your fingers in your ears and loudly shout lah, lah, lah BUT the adults in the room recognised the issue and started helping those that needed it. There's no promoting transgenderism; all they are saying is it's ok to be trans.There is a difference.

What causes gender dysphoria may not be 'settled' but the condition itself is. Therefore you have a choice of either helping these people or stigmatising and treating them like outcasts. The whole thing reminds me of the battle the gay community had to endure for decades. Treated often with contempt and open hostility, they faught hard for their rights to the point where they can now get married and are seen (certainly by the more enlightened amongst us) as just normal people with a different sexual preference. They too didn't have a choice to be gay (I mean who in their right mind would choose being gay and all it's associated problems to being straight?) and I don't see any difference with the trans community. You come across as one of the more reasoned debaters on this thread but this insistance that transgender is a choice and there are clinics and the likes exploiting confused children just doesn't ring true. There's nothing easy about choosing to be trans; it's a lifetime of being ostricized by family, friends and the general populace. It's hard to form meaningful relationships as well as establish a fruitful career. There's so many obstacles that no-one would willingly choose this path UNLESS they really, really thought they had no other choice for their own happiness and/or sanity. All they want is to be treated like human beings and much like the gay community, accepted for who they are. Is that really too much to ask?

I think the point being made is this is/was a complete non-subject until the GOP decided to make it political. Medical issues shouldn’t be political but that’s what the GOP and right-leaning politicians are making it to garnish a whole swathe of the electorate with misinformation and their “feelings” about the subject. And the effect can be clearly seen by this thread. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, this is a subject best left to medical experts, but others on this thread think they know better than actual experts and their opinion mean more than facts. They won’t change so there’s little point in debating.

That’s not what I was commenting on. Hormone treatment/puberty blockers aren’t permanent. As I mentioned in a previous post.

Wrong. Please read the thread.

Another factor to consider is the cost. Black market guns in the UK are at least twice but more likely 3 or 4 times the cost of the same gun in America. Now I'm sure your average hardened criminal isn't too bothered about the cost but it could be a factor if you happen to be a fledgling criminal, new to the scene. Much cheaper to just get a knife, hence why we see so much knife crime in the UK.

Gun crime in the UK is still a VERY rare thing, accounting for only 4% of homicides. 'There were 28 homicide victims killed by shooting in the year ending March 2022 (4% of all homicides), seven fewer than the previous year. The number of these offences is 30% lower than a decade ago (40 in the year ending March 2012).' https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/march2022 This is compared to the USA where 246 people were killed with guns in 2022 in New York ALONE. Accessability to guns plays a huge part in the numbers and thankfully it is VERY hard to get hold of a gun in the UK (hence the relatively low numbers). Knife crime however still plays a major part in UK homicides but if the same people had easy access to guns, I don't think anyone is denying homicide numbers would be much, much higher.

No one is 'shouting you down'. This is a forum for debate. You are being debated. If that hurts your sensitivities so much then may I suggest you retreat to an echo chamber of your choice, full of people who hang off your every word.

I think I have been consistent in my posts calling gender dysphoria a mental disorder. I'm not sure why you are questioning this. Your thoughts on Tavistock are somewhat disingenuos (as per usual). It is true that Tavistoc had it's issues but one of them wasn't 'medical malpractices'. However, there is a good argument to saying there was too much pressure put on staff to adopt an "unquestioning affirmative approach" but there were other reasons for the closure to include:- The service was struggling to deal with spiralling waiting lists It was not keeping "routine and consistent" data on its patients Health staff felt under pressure to adopt an "unquestioning affirmative approach" Once patients are identified as having gender-related distress, other healthcare issues they had, such as being neurodivergent, "can sometimes be overlooked" https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62335665 And again with your sensationalism of 'mutilate thousands of vulnerable children for personal gain'. Firstly, Tavistock was a NHS facility so there's no 'personal gain' and secondly, a child in England CANNOT get a sex change before they are 18. This is the law and no amount of you trying to imply otherwise will change this FACT. This was demonstrated in a court case brought by Keira Bell who was critical of being prescribed puberty blockers aged 16, then testosterone shots a year later BUT didn't have a double mastectomy until the age of 20, WHEN SHE WAS AN ADULT. There were undoubtedly issues at Tavistock (mostly in connection to the sheer numbers they had to deal with) but there was also plenty of people supporting the centre with one saying her son "received excellent service from Tavistock," but added 'having only one clinic to serve England and Wales has been failing children and their families'. You keep trying to push this narrative of children being 'mutilated' when it simply isn't true. Due care and dilligence is obvioulsy a point (highlighted by Tavistock) but isn't that the same for almost every medical service on the planet? There are children out there desperately needing specialist help with this mental disorder but it can't be done when people like yourself keeping bringing up crass sensationalism to imply a reality that doesn't exist other than in your own head.

Suicide. Is that fatal enough for you? 'Gender-affirming treatment remains a topic of controversy; of particular concern is whether gender-affirming treatment reduces suicidality. A narrative review was undertaken evaluating suicide-related outcomes following gender-affirming surgery, hormones, and/or puberty blockers. Of the 23 studies that met the inclusion criteria, the majority indicated a reduction in suicidality following gender-affirming treatment.....; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/ 'If such an adolescent’s suffering is unbearable and cannot be relieved by medical or psychiatric therapy, surgery might make sense if the parents are in agreement and have adequate decision making capacity themselves. This would be a very rare case, though. https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/18/is-there-a-right-age-to-change-ones-sex/few-adolescents-are-capable-of-making-a-decision-to-have-gender-transforming-surgery Again though, this is decisions taken with professionals who know much more than you.

I’d choose none because (one more time), it doesn’t happen. Let me try and put it in a way that even you might understand. Let’s imagine your child is diagnosed (by professionals who know what they are talking about) with schizophrenia. Your child requires fairly heavy duty drugs and eventually they require electric shock treatment. It’s very rare to impose that on children but in many instances it’s the only way and completely necessary. Are you denying your child essential treatment because YOU don’t understand it? Because it all sounds “a bit extreme “, because some politician has said it’s “not right”? We are talking proper, diagnosed mental health issues and you are throwing in your opinion because you (an uneducated layman) don’t think it’s right. This is why we have professionals making these decisions, not keyboard warriors who think they know better.

And I can’t believe why you keep making rubbish up to try and support your ideas. I used the Mayo Clinic just to show that hormone treatment isn’t permanent. I could provide a dozen links from other sources that say the exact same. Your point is non-existent and you going on about “mutilated” children only proves the sensationalism that you and many of your ilk are forced to resort to when faced with your invariable lack of facts and statistics. Get educated on the subject and then come back to me.

Again you conflate two VERY different things in an attempt to justify your stance. Sex changes are permanent, puberty blockers are not. 'GnRH analogues don't cause permanent physical changes. Instead, they pause puberty. That offers a chance to explore gender identity. It also gives youth and their families time to plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues that may lie ahead. When a person stops taking GnRH analogues, puberty starts again. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075 I really wish that when you try and state facts you actually state facts and not just make stuff up that fits your agenda. I repeat, no 12, 13 or 14 year olds are getting permanent sex changes. It just isn't done.

Find me something that says 12,13,14 year olds are getting full sex changes even in these clinics and you might have a point. I’m saying you can’t.

12-18 is too big a range to sample. 17/18 year olds are vastly different from 12/13 year olds and I’m saying no 12 or 13 year old is getting surgery (they’re simply not allowed). And unlike yourself I do trust the professionals as it’s not just them but the parents who also have to agree before anything is done on kids. You also need to find a surgeon willing to risk losing their license. This idea that kids are making up their own mind about changing sex and there’s a whole back-street industry of surgeons cutting off kids bits is blatantly absurd. It’s all a completely overblown situation created by the GOP in an absurd attempt to out- conservative each other. And by the looks of the posters here, it’s working. If the GOP was so concerned about the health of kids, they should focus on trying to not have them shot en masse at school.

I have no idea what the JAMA website is but even if you take these numbers at face value, 3,678 of 12-18 years olds over a period of 4 years is 919 a year. But the most important part is the actual ages involved. When Ron Desantis (A man with a VERY obvious bias) claimed '"They want to castrate these young boys, that's wrong. We stood up and said, from the health and children's well-being perspective, you don't disfigure 10, 12, 13-year-old kids based on gender dysphoria." In reply Dr. Jack Turban, assistant professor of child and adolescent psychiatry at the University of California, said 'It is not true under any existing medical guidelines, no medical or surgical interventions are considered for prepubertal children." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/aug/10/ron-desantis/transition-related-surgery-limited-teens-not-young/ Although some children can be given hormone treatment, the numbers for actual surgery are miniscule and ONLY done if the childs life is at risk (even DeSantis could only find 2 examples, one of a 15 year old and one of a 17 - and I recon he's been looking VERY hard for them). One more time for the hard of understanding - this is a medical problem best left to medical professionals who know what they are talking about. I

With so much of it happening, then you must be able to come up with a mountain of evidence and statistics to back up your ascertions? I've done my research and posted links in previous comments. If you've got any to back up your ascertions of an 'exploitative billion-dollar industry' forcing kids into sex changes against there's or their parents wishes, then feel free to post. I'm saying you don't.

What a load of nonsense. There's no 'exploitative billion-dollar industry' forcing kids into sex changes - your tin-foil hat is showing. As I have mentioned numerous times before; a child has to jump through a great deal of MEDICAL hoops (plus parental consent) to be even considered for hormone treatment and the vast, vast majority of children are not having sex changes until they are 18 (which then makes them an adult and therefore responsible for themselves). And lastly, the numbers are just not there to create a 'billion-dollar industry'. It's not boob jobs after all. You are making things up to suit your narrative but if you want to provide credible links to back up your assertion that there is an ''exploitative billion-dollar industry' forcing kids into sex changes against there's or their parents wishes, then I'm all ears. In the meantime I call BS.

You really should stop grabbing a hold of a few tiny, isolated incidents about a ridiculous subject to try and prove that trans people are somehow making a conscious choice to be what they are. Not only does it not prove your point, it diminishes any idea that you opinion is anything other than your own predudice. It certainly shows it's not based on science. Lycanthropy (the delusion in which you think you have been transformed into an animal) is not the subject and I don't know anything about it. If it is primordial narcissism then a professional would diagnose this. We are talking about body dysmorphia. And the good news is there are proper professionals out there who know what they are talking about helping these kids through what must be a truly tramautic time in their life. What I do know is they are also not there purposely trying to pi$$ you off. They really can't help themselves and wish they didn't feel the way they do. They need your sympathy and understanding, not a lesson on what your version of right/wrong, normal/freak is.

What 'overt hatred'? He disagrees with you and voices his point quite eloquently. There's no hatred. You on the other hand...................

Yes. From now on I want you all to call me Loretta.

Gone on then, educate me. You saying it's so doesn't actually make it so.

So in your 'expert' opinion, anyone diagnosed with gender dysphoria ( a recognised mental health disorder) is just allowing themselves to be swept up in 'primordial narcissism'. I think I can find you quite a few health EXPERTS who would strongly disagree with you.

So many uneducated posts on this subject, this one included. In the VAST majority of countries in the world the minimum age for a physical sex change is 18. Younger children can start hormone treatment earlier BUT must have the consent of themselves (obviously) their parents and most importantly, a qualified health professional who needs to confirm gender dysphoria (a recognized mental disorder). And also importantly, the numbers involved are minute; in the UK (my home country) there was 355 full sex changes from April 2021 to March 2022, in the USA it was approx. 10,000 but importantly, only 56 we’re under 18 and were diagnosed with severe gender dysphoria and suicidal tendencies. This idea that children are getting their bits chopped off is just absolute nonsense, perpetuated by an increasing number of irrelevant GOP candidates dog whistling to the ignorant and ill-informed. It’s a medical issue better handled by medical professionals. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/

The usual, knee jerk reaction in an attempt to substantiate your xenophobia. Since 2012 Sweden has taken in 1.3 million immigrants https://www.statista.com/statistics/523293/immigration-to-sweden/ The police estimate that about 30,000 people in Sweden are directly involved with or have ties to gang crime https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/29/swedish-pm-seeks-help-from-military-as-gang-violence-rocks-country That represents approximately 2% of overall immigration but if you and the many posters on here had your way, 98% of law abiding, tax paying, intigrated immigrants would have to suffer because of the actions of the few. No one is trying to diminish what is obviously a problem, but tarring all immigrants with the same brush as the very, very few who are causing the problems is NOT the solution.