johnnybangkok

Just look at all of the Trump fans absolutely creaming their pants at Bidens slightly racist gaff. We've had nearly 4 years of Trump's racism, bigotry, mysogyny, homophobia and religious prejudice on an almost daily basis but yeah, Biden's a racist for an off the cuff, ill advised remark.

The hypocracy knows no bounds.  

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

COVID has shown 'lack of democracy' in almost every country.

Why pick on Thailand?

Errr because this is a Thai forum?

Surprise, surprise Trump, the eminent virologist and world class scientist has got it wrong.

Who would have guessed?

Just an other example of how badly Boris and the Tories have handled this crisis. Almost every single country in the world have introduced some sort of quarantine but it's taken the UK months to adopt. When this is all over I look forward to the independent investigation into the governments handling of the C19 crisis and the highlighting of all the mistakes made that have directly contributed to so many deaths in the Uk.

It should mean that many heads will roll but knowing Boris and his lot, they'll probably squirm out of taking any responsibility and blame everyone else except themselves.

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You apparently come from a point of view that the majority must be sacrificed to save the elderly and infirm for a few more years. Significantly, the younger demographic that will suffer because of that policy were not asked if they agreed to suffer.

I'm elderly and infirm, and no one asked me if I wanted to be saved at the expense of younger generations. I don't.

Yeah so lets just go around the world and ask every single older person 'death or economy?' 

I'm pleased you are quite so willing (and dare I say even eager) to shuffle off this mortal coil but your proposed martyrdom is both disingenuous and unrepresentative because I suspect many, many more of your fellow older generation are not quite as willing to pop their clogs before they absolutely must.

3 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Does anybody get the feeling Trump says these sort of things just to wind up the left? He has done this consistently since winning in 2016. It is a tactic long known by pro poker players, to get your opponent on tilt and watch them melt down and lose everything. Trump has done it so well, that we are the eve of an election and the democrats haven't even calmed down enough to find a real candidate to run against Trump. 4 years of extreme tilt. Job well done!

 

Nothing makes a Trump supporter work harder than trying to find an excuse, any excuse for all the idiotic things he says or does.

It must be exhausting. 

12 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Another thread filled with the usual shouters and bullies pushing their  delusions of world control and ignorance.

 

Sweden has modified its public health strategy twice since it realized that its initial strategy  was not working. The continued praising  of a strategy no longer used is laughable. Sweden has since implemented  multiple measures seen in other countries;

- high schools and universities are closed

- gatherings of more than 50 people are legally banned, and the public has voluntarily avoided large gatherings of  10 or more

- many businesses introduced work at home policies

- long term care facilities have restrictions on access

- public movement in the at risk high population density cities has fallen significantly with fewer commuters and fewer people on the streets.

 

Yes, Sweden has not implemented a full lock down but this reflects Sweden's demographics. It is a small country with a relatively small population spread out giving a relatively low population density. A majority of the population lives in single family units. It does not have the  issue of multi-generational  homes as one sees in other cultures and countries.  One can take risks in Sweden that one cannot take in a city like Moscow or NYC. Comparing the Swedish strategy with countries where the demographics and  population  densities at risk are  different is idiotic because they are not comparable. It is easier to social distance when there is space to stay 2 meters away. Try doing that on a Bangkok city street or in Mumbai.  Sweden doesn't have the high density retail space as is seen in the USA or China with their mega malls. Sweden doesn't have the high volume  service trade like the USA or Canada; There are no high turnover outlets like Waffle House,Denny's, Applebee etc. in every neighborhood.

 

Public health policy  requires the co-operation of the general public. The  Covid 19 management strategies that have been deployed around the world reflect the population participation/buyin of the strategy. Some countries/cultures are more willing to accept a tougher approach (e.g. Taiwan, South Korea), other countries require prodding and "encouragement" (e.g. Canada, Australia, Denmark, Norway) and other countries have large populations who will not listen and think of their individual needs first (e.g. USA, Italy) making a consistent and rapid  application of policy difficult.  I do not see the Swedish public health policy as the best, but it seems this is what the Swedish people were willing to accept and what the country had the ability to implement. One can have the best strategy in the world, but if people do not comply, it is a useless strategy. The swedish government and the public also accept that thousands of its elderly and vulnerable will die before their time. This is not acceptable public policy in countries like Canada or Denmark. Sweden has used a strategy that its  population will comply with.

 

If the population does not buy in to the public health policy, it won't work. Australia and New Zealand  are having success now because the population did their part. Vulnerable regions of Canada are disease free because the locals went farther than government policy and blocked or restricted entry of anyone not from the region. India has deployed public security forces to smack a few bums to ensure that large gatherings are  broken up.

 

There is a cost to pay when the tough measures are delayed or not effectively implemented. Australia and New Zealand are opening up again in a safe and orderly manner. Their people have confidence to go out again. Canada is reopening in many regions and confidence is  back in the regions which have been disease free for weeks. Some EU countries that had a poor implementation and  then spotty compliance still have a shattered consumer confidence and it is unlikely that their economies will recover as quickly as those who had the tougher approach.  Yes, some Swedes are out in the cafes and restaurants.  The country already has an issue mental health and its suicide rate is significantly higher than its peer countries of Denmark, Norway and Canada. I expect that the Covid 19 issue will add to the repressed worries that weigh down the Swedish collective psyche - It will be  just another thing to worry about.  In the USA, with its rush to reopen, consumer confidence is evaporating as reported infections increase. 

 

The undeniable reality is that  infection with SARS Cov-2 leaves behind significant physical damage in many of the infected.  Circulatory and cardiac damage, scarred and damaged lungs and kidney damage. This damage is the unseen impact. And the more people who are infected, the more likely the damage will manifest itself in other illness events. This is an aspect not measured  by the champions of limiting the response.

What a great post.

I only hope the 'but, but Sweden' crowd will take note of the points you are making, especially the fact that Sweden HAS introduced self distancing (mostly voluntarily), has isolated the most vulnerable, closed high schools and universities, banned large gatherings and has extensive work at home policies. In addition it has closed it's borders and all although the lowest of all the Nordic countries, still has plenty of testing going on. 

The fallacy often touted by the 'open up the country' brigade is Sweden is the role model for all other countries to emulate when in fact the role model should be S. Korea and Taiwan who got ahead of the virus by initialising early testing, identifying, tracking and isolating. In the crucial 6 weeks from when the WHO announced C19 to be Public Health Emergency of International Concern (30th January), the vast majority of countries procrastinated, ignored, minimised and generally flew in the face of WHO advice and did very little to get ahead of the threat (see US, UK, Italy, Span, France etc.etc) so when it inevitably hit them, they were left will very little other option than to introduce the extreme measures of self-isolation, social distancing etc. Even then the death tolls in these countries have been far greater than others but I would argue this is more to do with a complete lack of preperation, a general lack of PPE (especially for front line workers) and massive incompetance at the highest level of government that has sown division and distrust in equal measure.

And for all those 'herd immunity' fans, the science is still not conclusive that there even is herd immunity, with 260 COVID-19 patients in South Korea tested positive for the coronavirus after having recovered (ttps://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-reinfections-were-false-positives.html). This virus has mutated and shown to cause long-term health damage to many infected. We are even seeing strokes in teenagers (https://www.popsci.com/story/health/covid-19-strokes-young-adults/) and although still low in number, Kawasaki disease in children (https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/multisystem-inflammatory-syndrome-in-children-and-adolescents-with-covid-19). There is still much to be seen and learned about this virus.

However, I also believe the current lockdown cannot continue for much longer. The overall economic impact of the lockdown is causing far too much hardship already and if left for any longer, will literally decimate the world economy. But how to get back to 'normal', withought putting too many people at risk? Here are my suggestions:-

1. Those deemed 'most at risk' must continue to self-isolate until either the crisis abates or a vacine is found.

2. All people on the 'front line' must be adequately protected, meaning mask and gowns and anything else they need is readily available.

3. Borders must open but only people with a valid health certificate (dated within the last 2 weeks) are allowed to travel.

4. Testing MUST be ramped up, with those testing positive forced to self-isolate (or admitted to hospital if particularly bad) and those they came into contact with tracked and self-isolated. 

Despite all the warnings over the years by the likes of the WHO, Bill Gates etc, it has become painful obvious The World and in turn individual countries were woefuly unprepared for this pandemic and have been caught completely by surprise (amazing when you consider we've gone through H1N1, Sars, MERS, Ebola etc). We can't cry over spilled milk now but the answer to an opening of the economy is already there IF sensible and knowledgable people are allowed to talk. And in the future hopefully countries will realise their mistake (and cost) in not preparing fully for pandemics and get much better prepared as you can be damn sure this is not going to be the first time we will see the likes of this again.   

17 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Trump is the only leader out of the 3 mentioned to be doing his job. That is improving the lives of his countrymen. Trump, no doubt, is only trying to make America great again. Merkel and Macron are doing all they can to win prizes and acolytes from the left, to the cost of France and Germany's traditional inhabitants. They preside over complete losses of freedom of speech(and thought), increasingly totalitarian states, and set the inevitable course of the breakup of the EU with their overbearing desire to control the continent. 

 History will show Trump was the most moral.

'to the cost of France and Germany's traditional inhabitants.' - and there we have it.

8 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Its like people don't remember the previous 8 years prior to Trump that led to the election of Trump. 

Trump only got elected because 4 million Americans who had previoulsy voted for Obama thought Hilary was such a shoo-in they didn't need to vote.

I have a very funny feeling they won't be making that mistake again come November.

1 hour ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Well that is the defeatist stance, thank you for illustrating it so well. Another take on the situation would be for America to finally enter discussions from a position of strength. When China's pips are squeaking they will be sitting eagerly at the table, gagging for some crumbs from Donald's plate. That is where we want them. Yes, it would be easy to continue 44's route of just appeasing every other nation at our own expense. That is the cowards way out. Kick the can down the road.

 I want to see the USA and freedom triumph in this battle, others want to see a totalitarian regime win, and do all they can to wreck the USA to try proving their point.  

There is nothing 'defeatist' about pointing out facts and the consequences of your ridiculous suggestions.

Nothing is the black and white all trump fans love; America good, China bad and there is nothing cowardly about wanting to find a solution to a problem that doesn't include a worldwide financial meltown and/or armageddon.   

And could you all just stop with the most obvious of straw man arguments; that a criticism of Trump is an endorsement of China. Not one single person on this thread has condoned China despite your contunual push for this narrative. 

43 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Default on any debts due to China. Confiscate any Chinese owned assets and bank accounts in the US. Deport all Chinese nationals back home. Ban all trade and travel between US/China. Then maybe, just maybe, start to talk with the Chinese communist regime about deals.

 Of course it could have been easier. Had China not lied and covered up the initial outbreak. Had the WHO and western media not been so doughy eyed and loved up with the communist regime that tough questions were asked and investigative journalism was carried out properly. But no, just a love fest for all things socialist, and China certainly ticks that box.

 I wonder how many of the China cheerleaders have actually lived for a real amount of time in one of these nations? I guess none.

 

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Default on debt - then US credit rating falls off a cliff sparking rampant inflation and a deap recession https://www.bbc.com/news/business-24453400. This would effect the stock market and many TV posters pensions.

Confiscate any Chinese owned assets and bank accounts in the US  - unless the companies/individuals were breaking the law, this would be complety illegal and would have the added impact of other investors leaving the US in droves when they realise their money/assets aren't safe.

Deport all Chinese nationals back home - where do you start? What about those Chinese that are naturalised citizens? If it's Chinese parents, do the kids get deported? One parent Chinese but the other American?  

'Ban all trade and travel between US/China'- Although China exports is the region of $500 billion worth of goods to the US, this is still a small part of the nearly $5 trillion it exports in total. Banning all trade and travel would hurt the US more, as you would effectively be closing down two of the worlds largest powers to each other and in turn closing down all the US companies that rely on this trade (and who have a big presence in China). This again would result in mass unemployment and a deep recession would be all but gauranteed. https://chinapower.csis.org/trade-partner/

The idea that the US is so powerful that it could afford to do all these things and come out of it unharmed is a false concept perpetuated by Trump and the right wing media. Trump knows this (or should know this) so before you bring the whole world to it's knees, perhaps a slight bit of restraint might be the more prudent option.    

17 hours ago, Mick501 said:

Do you believe he is President?

I think we are all fidning that really hard to believe.