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Just off to buy a new shirt - can you confirm which one I need to be against KFC as it isn't clear in you initial post.

I really like those KFC pita chicken sandwhich thingies...so I will have to support them I think.

Oh my god who cares what the OTHER guys are doing?! YOU ASKED WHAT THAKSIN DID. You already know what he did, your just trying to say "he's better than the other guys". I simply don't care, I was answering your dam_n question. And once again I AM NOT ACCUSING Thaksin lol, these are facts not accusations. Thousands died as a result of his orders.

Oh my god...what orders? -can't spell

I would like to get information, actually facts if possible, about what Thaskin as supposedly done. I read where one write explained how Thaskin controlled the rice export market and proportioned it out to his family and freinds. That is the kind of informationt that I want. I don't want to hear about rumors how he killed innocents durring the drug wars unless you have some sort of fact to back it up, not rumors.

Also, are we trying to force our western ideology on Thailand. Too many of you seem all too willing to ignore other evils in the world for the sake that "it will get worst if we get involved" or "we can force them into our own cultural context". If that applies to other parts of the world, than why not here? What say do we have as guests here if our cultural is so vastly different? If you won't fight for it abroad than why fight for it in Thailand. It seems like all politicians are corrupt in one way or another in Thailand and is that the name of the game in Thailand. If Thaskin was indeed corrupt how was he different from any of the others? Did Thailand prosper under his rule besides his corruption as a whole; economy, infrastructure, education, ect. or was just a small group that was close to him that earned the fruits of his labor? Was he overthrown because he became more powerful than the military or put his beloved police above the military? I assume that he did buy off votes but has any of the other parties done this as well and is it just a recent phenomenon?

So, all I am asking is for informational facts pertaining to what Thaskin has done. Keep emotion out of it

This seems to be an opinion masquerading as a question. The opinion is probably something like this: "Taksin is OK with me. You got a problem with that? The other guys are even more corrupt."

A better and more relevant question would be: What mistakes did Taksin make that caused him to lose power? There are no doubt a lot of reasons/opinions, but here is mine.

Taksin made himself vulnerable with the sale of his telecom business to the Singapore government and structuring the deal is such a way that he didn't have to pay taxes. If you recall, this news came out when Sondhi Limthongkul's movement was in its infancy. The tax issue, it seems to me, strengthened Sondhi's anti-Taksin movement.

True, everyone with money tries to minimize taxes. But I have a gut feeling that Taksin would still have been in power if he had paid his taxes and used his wealth in a very direct way to lift people out of poverty (rather than on such trivial billionaire pursuits as buying an English soccer club).

Taksin made his wealth in Thailand, thanks in large part due to Thai taxpayers who paid for Thailand's roads, hospitals, powergrid, and for Thailand's schools and universities, WHERE THE EMPLOYEES OF HIS COMPANIES WHO HELPED HIM EARN HIS BILLIONS WERE EDUCATED.

Taksin "bought" the support of the poor with his low-cost housing plan and health care program (the under-funded 30 bath card scheme), but went to extremes to avoid paying taxes to fund this and other plans to help the poor. Any informed economist will tell you that low tax rates benefit the rich and that it is one of the key reasons of Thailand's dramatic split between rich and poor.

In short, there is nothing "wrong" with Taksin that isn't also "wrong" with other politicians. He is equally corrupt, sociopathic, and unspiritual as the rest. He merely underestimated the power of his opposition.

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I think you have nailed it. I think he could have done some great things for this country with all the money he brought it instead of keeping it for himself or his cronies. He was the same as the other polititicans, he was just better at making money. And then he didn't share his wealth with the rest of the establishment. You're right as far as his connection witht the rural establishment, his healthcare program broke the hospital system but gained the support of the poor. I think he had far-reaching ability but near-sighted vision as it pertained to Thailand. Do you think he would still be in power, though, if he actually help to raise the poor up, through education and training programs, business loans and the like, but still kept the other political parties of the establishment at arm's length? You're arguement was great.

ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS GOOGLE!!!!! BUT YOU DIDN'T BECAUSE YOU ARE FULL OF POOP. You don't really want information or facts, if you did you would have used a bloody search engine..... you really piss me off.

http://www.asiantribune.com/oldsite/show_news.php?id=2679

This one is from the beggining of the drug killings and Thaksin claims most of the murders were inflicted drug dealer to drug dealer and yet none of the bodies were allowed to be autopsied and the bullets were removed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7260127.stm

Many of the murdered were later shown to be innocent.

http://www.mail-archive.com/cannabisaction...m/msg00007.html

They want to try Thaksin for CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17678

Video of Thaksins terror reign

These were just the first 5 links from google..... what is wrong with you?

because, YOUTUBE, CANNABISACTION and AMNESTYORG are reliable sources of information. Are there any visions of the airport being shut down a while back or the rural vote being repressed? What about all the other villains out there who have created acts far more outrageous than what you accuse Thaskin of doing? Are you going to go after them? Again, do all heads of state know what their organizations, police, military are doing? If he did know than he should be held accountable for hauling them into the courts. I am not full of poop, I just went to see a man about a hourse an hour ago...cannabis action, are you seriou?

What proof do you have that Thaskin knew what was going on? I'm not saying he didn't, I just want facts no guessing games. Do other leaders of the world know what is going on with their police forces? Is it that centrally controlled?

What exactly do you consider proof?

Articles from the internet?

Or, do you need a scanned copy of orders with his signature and thumb-print?

Your request is totally unreasonable.

The rest of the world sees Thailand as a joke, now, and it started with the overthrow of Thaskin. Like him or not, his party was elected by the people. Now, if there was vote fraud, payouts, than the establishment should have held him accountable. Is Thaskin such a genius that he was able to cover up all his tracks, either financially or criminally? You seem to think I am a supporter of him. Honestly, I don't care who is office anymore because if one side doesn't like the other they will just take to the streets again. What the world sees is a country whose military threw out the elected party. If my requests are unreasonable than how do you plan to hold Thaskin accountable for his misdeeds?

For crying out loud.. lol Im not making accusations, this wasnt hidden information, everyone knows about it and people that lived here during this time heard it every day. Even the King came on national Television and berated Thaksin asking him "what will the rest of the world think of us?"

Then why wasn't he LEGALLY dealth with. Impeachment. Charges brought up to accuse of him action unbecoming someone of his office. Why weren't the legal avenues followed? Why did they wait until he was outside the country to overthrow him. Did the army act in defense of the King's statement. Is this a case of the Royallists vs. the Republicans, per say? Heard what every day?

How about corruption? I worked for a subsidiary of a British MNC in Bangkok during Mr Thaksin's administration. Our office was close to the new airport - watched it go from a big patch of dirt to a (nearly) world class airport during my time working in the vicinity. We were a Thai company and the domestic market leader in our field, with nearly a 50% market share.

Bidding for Swampydoom projects, the procurement manager complimented us on our technical quality and pricing of our pre-qualification material - but then he asked us one question 'are you a Shincorp company?' ... when we replied in the negative, he advised us not to 'waste our time' submitting...

Funny thing is, I remember Mr T telling everyone when he was first elected (I paraphrase) - don't worry about corruption, I am already too rich to bother with it - if only...

I agree Mr T is a clever guy and handled a lot of Thailand's external financial issues well, but he just couldn't keep his hands out of the till - his real mistake of course, was throwing down the gauntlet to the establishment, and that has happened to many populist premiers in many countries...

So was his mistake that he didn't include the rest of the establishment (the military, the other parties) in on his dealings? Was it a case of the rest of the establishment not getting their cut?

Sabum is entirely correct - He was the boss and he was in charge. (and you can't have it both ways on this, he can't take credit of the good and pass off the ill).

Examples:

Suppression of freedom of the press - TV channels sued, newspapers stamped on.

His policies in the south lead to a direct increase in violence after several yeas of reductions in troubles in the region

His wide spread corruption - examples he and his family buying up large tracks of land on Kho Chang in the year before he announced it as a 'special area for tourist development'.

His placing personal business above national interests - example his personal intervention in assisting that telecoms company (he had placed out of his direct control) in acquiring rights in the Indian Telecom market.

The land deal for which he was convicted

His war on drugs which resulted in the extra-judicial killings of almost three thousand low level drug users/suppliers but not one single arrest of any of the big players.

His policy of division, pitting the rural poor against the urban middle class

.... .. .

He was the boss of the country and if what you say is true than he should have held the police officials responsble. If your accusations are true than Thaskin should be held accountable for not bringing those who commtted the acts to justice. When was he convicted? During his rule or after he was ousted. His policy, as you say, is a time-honored tradition it seems in Thailand. No other political party has taken part in this?

Its not our job to do YOUR research for you, the people murdered are all confirmed as MISSING FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH. You go find the appropriate documents... jesus.

Usually those who make the accusations have to show proof...at least in civilized society. Where are they confirmed murdered?

May I suggest you read today's Bangkok Post where there is an excellent article by Bangkok Senator Khun Rosana.

Besides this, the Thaksin administration has been ousted by the military i.a. because his corruption was just a bit too much, even for Thai people. However, in almost 3 years now, we have seen only one case solved, the Rajadamri land case, where Thaksin stumbled over his own law.

Other cases under investigation or already pending at the court involves the government loan to Burma for Burma to by time form Shin Corporation, which as a pure coincidence (sic!) belongs to the Thakisn family.

I don't have to mention the tax evasion case when Thaksin boxed a new law through parliament allowing crucial industries to increase the shares held by foreigners from 20% to 49%. The next day (literally), Shin corporation sold 49.5% to Temasek Holdings for several billion Baht (I forgot the exact amount) and no tax was paid.

The average amount of debt of the Thai family doubled under the Thaksin administration (I don't have the link to prove this allegation, though), but Thaksin continues to brag that he was the PM for the poor.

I guess if you really want to know and are intellectually honest, you would have found out these fact by yourself. So your question is just rhetorical?

The military through him out because of his corruption or because he had too much power as others have claimed. Debt has increased around the world for families. But I like you facts you use as far as foreign investment. That is what I'm talking about. That is what I want to see. Was it a bad thing to try to increase foreign investment? In the U.S., there is no limit on ownership percentage of a company. I will look up about the no tax paid on the Shin deal, though. As far as the loan to Burma, I don't think any country should be involved in giving them money for that archaic place. The question is not rhetorical. Time and time again posts are made here concerning his evil ways. What you said here, no other Thai PM has done anything similar to this deal. How about the deal giving the U.S.-The Thailand Treaty of Amity-allowing Americans the same rights as Thais in the owning and operting of compaies, while excluding other countries? Who was PM then? I personally love the deal because I might own a business in Thailand one day.....

An idiot for letting them have free reign? HE'S WAS THE BOSS, NOTHING GETS DONE WITHOUT THE BOSS GIVING THE GO AHEAD. Guess we better start clearing Hitlers name then, I mean HE didn't pull all those triggers, HE didn't personally gas people, HE never actually killed anyone with his bare hands so his innocence is completely obvious right?! Are you making a horrible joke?

Thaksin is directly responsible for the drug murders and the muslim murders, he is a murderer. Anyone who wants to forgive the orchestrator of mass murder because his finger didn't actually pull the triggers has a problem with logic and how the universe works and needs to get some education PRONTO.

These are not rumours, if you choose to not believe the facts that all these people died under Thaksins orders then you are sticking your fingers in your ears and going "BLAH BLAH BLAH I CANT HEAR YOU BLAH BLAH BLAH" like a child. It happened. I dont care if he handed out tons of loans and money to poor people (I dont think this actually helped them) and bought the loyalty of the entire nation, he is a murderer on a large scale and that cannot be forgiven.

You see, this is someone who gets emotional over the subject. Hitler expressely ordered those things to happen. There is documentaction, and even audio and video calling for it. When did I say I chose not to believe? You are calling a man a murderer without a fair indictment of his crimes. In most countries, that would not be taken lightly and would need proof to back up such claims. If you would like to argue my educational backgrond than I am sorry to say that you would lose rather badly on that end.

Again, the other member gave me the website so I can read the article but not the acutal link: I will look for it. Again, the was more an editorialization than a straight news story. First-hand witnesses, docements?

But for the life of me I can't justify hanging the results of such a stupid decision on Taksin. He did not kill 2500 people, the police did. Yes he was an idiot for letting them have free reign.

You think the police would kill all those people without a wink and a nod from Toxin? He knew what was going on.

What proof do you have that Thaskin knew what was going on? I'm not saying he didn't, I just want facts no guessing games. Do other leaders of the world know what is going on with their police forces? Is it that centrally controlled?

An excellent question.

Thailand advanced a great deal under Thaksin. I was very impressed with the way he handled the international financiers in 1997 (IMF) after the Asian financial meltdown. Books could be written about the genius of Thailand's leadership maneuvers during that time. The same sophisticated bankers are, ironically, now focused on other countries who offer much less resistance to banking control.

During the Tsunami in 2004, more great leadership from Thaksin.

In between all of that I've seen extraordinary advances in the Thai infrastructure.

I with he'd get elected in my part of the world.

Is he hated then because he brought this prosperity to Thailand but did not include the other parties in on it? Economically, Thailand did prosper indeed while he was in power. All the evils things that is associated with him: is he at fault or would they have been going on without him in power.

I read about the war on terror. Everyone hates Taksin for that.

You hand the police force an order to crack down on drugs. They are in effect a law unto themselves. Already corrupt to the core, what do you expect apart from mass murder and cover ups.

But for the life of me I can't justify hanging the results of such a stupid decision on Taksin. He did not kill 2500 people, the police did. Yes he was an idiot for letting them have free reign.

I have no arguement with calling the Thai police corrupt because they are. I have first hand experience in that. But was this going on before his rule and also after?

Prove it? No, of course we cannot. (Anyone who could might well be "dissapeared" by now!) But surely an educated person would not believe all these reports are without foundation, no?

Thaksin's "war on drugs" campaign in 2003 resulted in the extrajudicial killing of more than 2,500 people. Although local and international media reported and recorded hundreds of cases of police officials shooting and killing unarmed civilians - always in self-defense according to official accounts - to date not one Thai official has been prosecuted or even reprimanded for his or her role in the unprecedented orgy of violence.

Thaksin's heavy-handed counterinsurgency policies in Thailand's conflict-ridden south resemble an Augusto Pinochet-style dirty war. Rights groups say hundreds of Thai Muslims have gone missing since the conflict kicked up in 2004, a charge Thaksin has consistently contested. Yet there are many examples of security forces implementing his policies using arbitrary and often excessive force, including the April 2004 siege on the Krue Se Mosque, the point-blank shooting in the back of the heads of 19 restrained and handcuffed young Muslims at Saba Yoi, and the October 2004 death by suffocation of at least 78 Muslim civilians at Tak Bai.

There are plenty of other cases where individual liberties, then protected by the progressive 1997 constitution, were apparently smothered without legal recourse by Thaksin's abuse of state power. For instance, Thaksin has publicly admitted to state complicity in the still-unresolved disappearance case of Muslim human-rights lawyer Somchai Neelaphaijit, who was abducted by Thai intelligence officials in Bangkok in an apparent effort to suppress his submitting evidence of police torture of five detained Muslim men he was representing. That damning evidence, it was later revealed, included medical proof of security forces' using electric-shock treatment on one of the bound suspects' testicles.

Then there is the mysterious unresolved shooting death of Kornthep Wiriya, a former customs employee of Shin Satellite, the publicly listed telecommunication concern established by Thaksin and until last January majority-owned by his family. Kornthep apparently made the mistake of agreeing to serve as a prosecution witness in a politically charged 100 million baht (US$2.6 million) tax-evasion case against the company. He was ambushed and shot in the head by unidentified assailants while riding his motorcycle before he could testify in court.

Where is this article from? I need the source of the article. The newspaper it came from. It seem more of an editorial than a straight news story. I am not saying that it is not true. I remember the stories that Thailand had secret U.S. C.I.A. prisons holding muslim extremists and that turned out to be bumpkus.

he did a lot of good things.

a few not so good things.

very popular, too popular... someone got jealous and a bit scared.

so they decided to turn him into a boogy man.

kicked him out of office, brainwashed part of the population... the media went along for the ride

I'm sure he catered to the masses. They all do that and I'm not saying that is right. Obama did his part in the U.S. by saying 95% of the population will pay less taxes when only 40% of the population pays taxes. In a way, that is buying a part of the public, the poorer part with the promise of free money. I bet it is a tried and true practice. But did the other political parties do this as well? Thaskin has been accussed of murder and every other sin. I just want to hear the facts.

I would like to get information, actually facts if possible, about what Thaskin as supposedly done. I read where one write explained how Thaskin controlled the rice export market and proportioned it out to his family and freinds. That is the kind of informationt that I want. I don't want to hear about rumors how he killed innocents durring the drug wars unless you have some sort of fact to back it up, not rumors.

Also, are we trying to force our western ideology on Thailand. Too many of you seem all too willing to ignore other evils in the world for the sake that "it will get worst if we get involved" or "we can force them into our own cultural context". If that applies to other parts of the world, than why not here? What say do we have as guests here if our cultural is so vastly different? If you won't fight for it abroad than why fight for it in Thailand. It seems like all politicians are corrupt in one way or another in Thailand and is that the name of the game in Thailand. If Thaskin was indeed corrupt how was he different from any of the others? Did Thailand prosper under his rule besides his corruption as a whole; economy, infrastructure, education, ect. or was just a small group that was close to him that earned the fruits of his labor? Was he overthrown because he became more powerful than the military or put his beloved police above the military? I assume that he did buy off votes but has any of the other parties done this as well and is it just a recent phenomenon?

So, all I am asking is for informational facts pertaining to what Thaskin has done. Keep emotion out of it

Confirmed. I have just seen the same headlines on BBC world news.

And now Thaskin will just back down...not.

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What exactly did he do wrong? did he not pay his Tax ? What has he done SO wrong to make so many people hate him so much? I am dying to know if his wrongdoings overpower his good ideas and things that would not be here now but for him.

I'll speak from personal experience as a rice exporter. He started having the govt. buy up all the rice it could get its hands on from the farmers at about 40-50% higher than the standard rates and storing vast quantities of it in poorly maintained govt warehouses until it could be auctioned off. Only a select few (ie his cronies and family companies) would ever win these acutions even though they bidded lower than what the govt paied for them. So basicialy he used tax payer money to give cheap rice to his exporter buddies and drive legitiamate exporters to Vietnam were the rice is on average between $140-165 cheaper per Ton.

And thats just the tip of the iceberg of Cocksin's corruption. He's got a laundry list of simmilar scams and rip offs where he steals money from the govt to his benifiet and thouse of his friends and family.

This is the information I want. What did Thaskin ACTUALLY do? No rumors or what us farang think he did..."He killed untold numbers in the drug wars". If you don't know for certain that shut it. I want he has been proven to do. Events backed up by facts. No emotional tantrums involved please.

As none of the firearms (M16s) are fitted with BFA's (blank firing adaptors) that are required to fire and cycle blank ammo I have to conclude that live rounds are being used.

Anyone even mildly familiar with assault weapon technology could only come to the same conclusion.

Finally someone who knows what he is talking about.. I agree 100% ..Good post Ober..

Live rounds

M16 without BFA adaptor

M16 without BFA adaptor

M16 with BFA adaptor

Wouldn't it be kind of stupid for the military to have blank adaptors fitted to their rifles? It takes several seconds to unwind the BFA from the barrel and would kind of scream out "Look at us, we're idiots!!!"

go to the pattaya live forum, you will find lots there,.

The Pataya forum here on visa?

Stickman?

No, not Stickman. I think Pattaya was in the title. It has been awhile. Nothing against Stickman now....

Just to get my mind off of the Thai Troubles, I remember there being a site with pics of really cute thai girls. I' stuck in Iraq so I need something to look at on my down time. I think it was associated with Pattaya. Any guesses? Run by a local farang I believe.

While viewing Utube about news of the protests in Bangkok, I was astonished to see red shirted Farangs within the scenes of fighting and demonstrations.

Check out:

My questions are:

What the hel_l are they doing there?

Why are they involved?

And what's they're role within these groups?

Yes, I might live in Thailand, own a home in Thailand, own a business in Thailand and may have interest on how the political situation goes but no foreign individual should be physically involved in it. No matter what, this is not his or my country. Maybe he is a Manchester City fan....

manchester united you mean ....man city wear blue

but didn't Thaskin own Manchester City for a short while?

This is not an opinion of their professionalisn, but logic of their recruitment methods. Ot is logical that Conscript would look for the easy way out, while Volunteers know what is expected of them

It is just the qaulity of the training I guess. I was trained to never give up your weaopon. I think the army might be in trouble if it tries to order its soldiers to take more drastic measures. Do these conscripts even want to be there? Where does their loyalty lay. That is the problem with conscription. With volunteer armies, a personal choice has been made to serve in the armed forces. These guys were probably never even given a clear order. Just told to park somehwere. That way the leaders can't be blamed if something goes wrong. I don't know the qaulity of the average officer or NCO in the Thai army but I doubt there was any leadership there, NCO or officer-wise. Just a bunch of conscripts told to park their apc at an intersection and "wait for further instruction".