Groongthep

1. Goong Ten - This is a very good dish. Spicy, salty, and sour. The shrimp are live but by the time they get to your table they are dead. They are usually smashed or "Tum" like in som tum. Really good with stick rice

12. Durian - I am not a fan of durian. I don't know why people love durian so much. It smells and taste bad. Must be a learned taste. If it smells bad and tastes bad then no joy for me to eat.

Good post. Thanks for your opinions and observations. There are a couple things I would like to comment on though.

1. When you buy Goong Dten (or however you would like to spell it using roman letters) from the food carts in Bangkok, the grass shrimp are most definitely still alive. I've had them jump right out of the container they serve it in.

12. Durian is indeed a learned taste, but once you've acquired that taste which doesn't take long, you'll wonder why you didn't like the stuff right from the beginning.

It is not the individual who determines whether they are realized or not. It is the tradition, and the realized masters, the emanations, within the tradition who recognize those who are realized.

Forgive me but I am always skeptical of claims that one tradition is in any respect better than another. Did the Buddha not teach that we should "be a light unto ourselves"? How does one determine if some Tibetan monks routinely have large numbers of enlightened followers or not without simply accepting the monks word on it? Perhaps they do, I don't know, but how would one ever determine if someone else had reached enlightenment unless you had reached that stage yourself? When one goes around claiming that he/she is enlightened or claims that others are so, then I tend to be even more skeptical since most respected Buddhist teachers of all traditions seldom, if ever, make such claims.

I respect your opinion, but I would offer this as food for thought:

Do not go by revelation;

Do not go by tradition;

Do not go by hearsay;

Do not go on the authority of sacred texts;

Do not go on the grounds of pure logic;

Do not go by a view that seems rational;

Do not go by reflecting on mere appearances;

Do not go along with a considered view because you agree with it;

Do not go along on the grounds that the person is competent;

Do not go along because "the recluse is our teacher."

Kalamas, when you yourselves know: These things are unwholesome, these things are blameworthy; these things are censured by the wise; and when undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill, abandon them...

Kalamas, when you know for yourselves: These are wholesome; these things are not blameworthy; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness, having undertaken them, abide in them.

Kalama Sutta - Angutarra Nikaya 3.65

Italics added by me.

It's also why the success rate for achieving realization is so low for westerners.

I would be curious to know what metric one uses to measure "achieving realization" in westerners vs others. My intuition tells me the only one who could possibly know if enlightenment had been obtained would be the individual him/her self. Attempting to judge others and their individual spiritual understanding and/or progress is in itself a very unskillful pursuit especially when referring to very large groups such as (all) westerners.

I mean some of those dishes are an acquired taste, but non of them is as revolting as a big Mac . Since when is CNN a food judge :jap:

A Big Mac more revolting than Mangdana? I will be the first to admit I am no fan of fast food either but you are now taking the "I hate everything American" fad to the level of "We'd rather dine on turd eating coachroaches than fast food hamburgers". Will you ever learn to think for yourself or will you always be a slave to trends and fashion?

I'd take Mangda over a Big Mac any day, and I'm American. When did he say he 'hates everything American'?

Much less chance of food poisoning with the Mangda.

Nam Prik Maengda tastes exactly like Blue Cheese. Used as a dip for steamed/raw veg and rice.

I would never eat the reconstituted cattle used in a Big Mac. Shit. And I really don't see much difference between Gong Chae Nam Bplaa and oysters.

Perhaps you guys didn't read my original post closely. I said don't like fast food ( i.e. McDonald's) either, but I dislike rice paddy insects even more. They both suck. I do like Gung Chaem Nam Bplaa but can't see how anyone would compare that to oysters unless of course they think oysters taste like shrimp and they soak their oysters in fish sauce.

I have generally found that those who whine the loudest against fast food chains are very often the same people who say they hate all television, automobiles, mobile phones, bottled water, large discount stores, and just about all the other things that are fashionably out of fashion. Quite often but not always, their actions don't match their words which betrays them for the hypocrites that they are.

......so you can expect that your cement sack, color tin and floor tile will go up in price at least 50%.

Raise the wages of the lowest paid workers (not all workers just the very lowest paid) by only 75 baht a day and the company's products will increase by at least 50%?! Absurd.

Very flawed logic IMHO. Putting more company profits into the hands of workers who are also the country's consumers might very well boost the economy rather than weaken it. Supply-side economic theories don't really apply much here in Thailand since so many workers are employed by foreign corporations who tend to repatriate their profits or invest it outside the country. Besides, the new proposed law calls for an increase in the minimum wage to only 300 baht a day from the current 215 (in the Bangkok area). That's about a two and a half US dollar a day increase. Hardly a prescription for disaster to the large employers. And as we all know, there never has been much meaningful enforcement of minimum wage requirements on small businesses in Thailand unless the business is owned by a farang. Moneies earned by the poor working class in Thailand will almost certainly result in it been spent here in Thailand. Increasing the miserably low wages of the working poor is not only a fair and just policy it makes good economic sense as well.

A little late aren't we? This news "broke" two weeks ago.

I mean some of those dishes are an acquired taste, but non of them is as revolting as a big Mac . Since when is CNN a food judge :jap:

A Big Mac more revolting than Mangdana? I will be the first to admit I am no fan of fast food either but you are now taking the "I hate everything American" fad to the level of "We'd rather dine on turd eating coachroaches than fast food hamburgers". Will you ever learn to think for yourself or will you always be a slave to trends and fashion?

Durian, one of the worst dishes in Thailand? Judging from it's widespread popularity and high prices I would say that just the opposite is true. I love the stuff myself. Especially with ice cream. Goong dten and goong chae nam blaa are also pretty common. I think that if more foreigners got up the nerve to try them they'd find out they're really pretty good, depending of course who has prepared it.

Not as far as I know .Wasn't it raised in the last 4 years

NO!!!! Much before. I am sure about that.

Police order 606/2549.

2549 was 5 years ago.

Wow thanks tywais ..

I second that tywais. I found these clear explanations of everyday Thai colloquialisms from a native speaker who is obviously very fluent in English to be particularly helpful. Thanks.

1.) Should Thaksin try and return, the anti Thaksin crowd has every right to demand the military step in to do something about this.

2.) Democracy is about so much more than voting, and if the red brigade (people) can not understand this, then they do not deserve the rights it offers them.

Sounds like something Benito Mussolino might have said.

I used the AEON ATM at the Ocean Towers II building which is near the corner of Asoke and where Sukhumvit Soi 19 curves into it on Monday. There were no fees from AEON; and for those who have said that AEON gives lower exchange rates to make up for the non-fees, I can honestly say that I have done the math and also checked the rates at some of the larger banks like Bangkok Bank and Kasikorn Bank and found that the rate I received was on par with what they were offering.

So if you have to use your debit/check card from your homeland account at a local ATM, then AEON is the only way to go as long as you're reasonably close to one. (Luckily I was close to this one.) The savings aren't enough to make it worth your while if you have to go too far out of your way to find one. There aren't many of them.

The SUREST way to learn Thai is immersion, surround yourself w/ a Thai, or more than one, listen and produce.

While I agree that immersion can be a very successful way of learning any foreign language, I highly doubt that it is totally correct to say that it alone is the surest way to fluency. The thousands of foreigners who are married to Thais and living in the smaller towns and the countryside and who cannot speak Thai beyond the simplest of conversations are a testament to that.

Immersion along with a structured program of study be it at a university, private school or self-study would surely be a more effective method, would it not?

http://www.superrichthailand.com/

will better the banks everytime

The above is an old link for Super Rich. I believe they have rebuilt their original main branch after the original one was severely damaged during the govt/red shirt mayhem last year. I believe (not sure) they have now reopened their main branch nearby to where the old one was and conveniently have also opened 2 smaller booths at the Chitlom and Phromphong BTS Stations.

I agree that the rates are usually quite good at Super Rich.

Here's the new website: Superrich

Well it was only 40 years ago in the UK blacks were called 'darkies and indians caleld 'pakis', and as for the US they still pretty much call blacks 'niggers'...so I guess that in another 30 or 40 years us 'farangs' in Thailand can expect there to be a law against using the word farang or farang dam

I'll be the first to call bulls_*t on that.

And the idea that Farang is the same as "n*_ger" is weak, at best.

Agreed. timestamp has obviously not spent much time in the US. The N word has long been unacceptable among any group of polite people in the US including working class people. Its use in just about any situation shows extremely low class. And trying to equate the word farang with “ni99er” is also absurd. The former is at worst mildly derogatory and mostly used simply as a neutral descriptive term for someone of European lineage. The other word however, is used only when it is intended to be insulting or spiteful.

Yes. He is a white guy. He grow up with his white mother and white grandmother. He got a 'white' education and became a WASP. He does SWPL like like turning the lawn into a organic vegetable garden. He is like the regular white guy who enjoys beer and cigarettes and thinks smoking ganja is a sickness of black people.

What makes you think he is black?

OK, I recognize a wind-up when I see one so I won't bite, but how do you reconcile your above distasteful remarks with the following self righteous statement you made to another member recently in the following post:World News Thread

I will quote:

"If you support such ethnic nationalism that wanna keep the society free of foreigners, immigrants and their culture, opposes multi multiculturalism and miscegenation then move home. If you want it immigrant free and close the borders, be consistent and stay there and don't move out and enjoy the Christian television broadcasting network

If you are bothered about 'foreigners' and 'others' with strange customs in your neighborhood and argue that they don't belong there but should go home then make sure that you don't bother other locals and foreigners where you are a foreigner yourself with your presence."

Explain to your wife that you just can't do the rural Isaan life and move back to Bangkok. If the chickens are driving you crazy now and you're still renting, once your new house is built you are going to encounter a whole host of new cultural issues to deal with that will make the chickens seem like nothing.

Well, if you want to get right down to the truth - other countries business IS the USA's business because it is our world.

With the ammount that the US owes China, as in; has borrowed from then to fund its 'business in other countries' like Iraq, Afganastan, Libya, it must be getting close to the stage where China 'ownes' a fair chunk of the US.

China owns a huge amount of US Treasury securities (bonds or T-bills) which pay a very modest rate of interest. The central Chinese government bought them of their own free will hoping they would be a safe place to "park" the enormous surplus of dollars they have accrued as a result of the trade imbalance with the US due at least partly to the intentional under valuation of their own currency.

True, a lot of that borrowed money goes to military expenditures but even more goes to Medicare and Medicaid which each year keep falling farther and farther behind the skyrocketing cost of medical care. China doesn't "own" anything in the US as a result of buying these Treasury Bills except debt.

The president is white.

Really?

So "Racial discrimination, deep-seated in the United States, has permeated every aspect of social life," the report said, adding that black people are being treated unfairly and excluded in promotions."

Unusual statement about a country whose President is black, whose highest military officer was once a black man (Colin Powell), whose highest diplomat (Secretary of State) was once a black woman and whose Ambassador to the UN was once a black person. There have been literally dozens of black cabinet members over the years, and just about all the largest cities once had black mayors (New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Houston, San Francisco, Seattle, New Orleans, Washington DC, Atlanta and too many others to mention.) I would have to look up how many black members of the House and Senate there have been but it must number in the hundreds.

The highest paid person in entertainment is a black woman (Oprah Winfrey) and the list of highest paid athletes all contain significant numbers of blacks. There have been and still are CEOs of fortune 500 companies that are black; Merck and Company, American Express, Aetna Insurance, Xerox, Citigroup, Darden Restaurants (Red Lobster and The Olive Garden) Merrill Lynch, McDonalds and Symantec Corporation to name a few.

I'm certainly not saying that discrimination no longer exists in the US these days but to say that it "permeates every aspect of social life" is absurd. Can any of the ethnic minorities in China ever expect to become anything more than low level party bureaucrats at best? I seriously doubt it. Pure hypocrisy.

On the issue of civilian casualties in the Iraq War I must admit that it is true that had the US not entered into that huge mistake thousands of Iraqi civilians who were killed would still be alive today. It is only fair to point out however, that the overwhelming number of those civilian casualties were inflicted not by US or Allied troops but by the different warring factions within Iraq itself, most notably Sunnis vs. Shiites and often by groups from extremist elements from outside the country altogether.

It is fairly simple and I am sorry if I wasn't clear. I basically say these kind of topics are also useful to see who is an intermediate learner (as a intermediate learner myself per example) so I could toss them a private message, perhaps ask for their msn and see what they pick up in daily life and swap knowledge on comparable and equal levels. To find learners who are on your level to share knowledge. Yes you can learn a lot more from people who are mega fluent but I am just saying that this topic is just for everbody who reads it and feels like it, to fill in a form so other people can see what kind of level they have and how they got there, That's what the original poster meant by "people who are learners of the thai language or are fluent". We are all learners of the thai language but only a select few of us are fluent. We all want to get there though and need all the help we can get and I know for sure that I know a lot of stuff that other intermediate learners don't know and I am also very sure that other intermediate learners know a whole bunch that I am unaware of. Learning together online could be a powerful tool and spotting equal level learners could be pretty useful too Wall of text but thats it basically.You can learn from anyone as a learner of a language (since everyone picks up different stuff from different situations) not just from those who are super fluent even though they are your rolemodels and master Yoda's.

OK, now I understand and yes, it does make sense.

It is also useful for intermediate learners to catch up with other intermediate learners and beginners to catch up with other beginners right? I could add a dozen of intermediate learners to my msn due to threads like this and start pumping

Sorry, I read this several times and still can't figure out what you mean. Could you explain a bit more. Thanks.

I wouldn't paint them all with the same brush. I frequent both Dosa King and Mrs. Balbir's and they usually have quite a few customers.

There are more than a handful of members on this forum who have reached a highly impressive level of fluency in written Thai (myself not included). I suspect that they have not answered your post out of modesty. Go back and read through some old posts and you'll see who they are.

There's no way to tell how fluent other members are in spoken Thai unless they give some sort of link to a video, or recording of themselves engaged in a discussion.

I'm not sure what your thesis is, but perhaps you could take time to answer the questions, too. We're all here to learn from each other.

Joosesis,

Sorry if my answer came off as sounding a bit blunt. That was not my intention and I certainly did not intend to offend you.

My point or thesis was simply that the people who you really want to hear from (i.e. those who have reached a very high level of fluency) have not responded to your questions (except perhaps aanon). I would suspect that we could all learn the most from those who have learned the most themselves.

I've picked up from following this thread for several years that those who are most proficient in Thai are the ones who have studied the language formally at the university level. There are of course, some who are quite good who have learned outside college programs but I think they are in the minority. I cannot be sure but I would suspect that those uni grads who are most fluent would feel somewhat uncomfortable detailing their abilities when it is obvious to those who read their blogs written in Thai and hear them doing interviews in Thai on local TV and radio that they really know the language about as well as any foreigner is going to know it without having been born here.

That having been said, I will answer your questions as best I can.

1.) What level are you at?

As you yourself said it's difficult to answer this one but if I had to, I would put myself somewhere in the upper intermediate level. I too use facebook to communicate with my many Thai friends and use the text function on my Thai mobile phone daily when I'm in Thailand. Since common everyday speech is used in both those mediums I find it much easier than writing anything formal like a business letter. In fact, I've never written a formal letter or report in Thai because I have never really had the need to do so. If I need something done in Thai I will either speak to the person face to face or call them on the telephone. My speaking ability far exceeds my reading and especially my written ability. Since nearly all of my written Thai communication is done with a keyboard my Thai handwriting is quite bad and probably looks to most Thais like the writing of a young child. As I said before however I can converse comfortably in Thai on just about everything that I know anything about. Since I concentrated on speaking long before learning to read and write I often hear from Thais that my pronunciation is very good (ผมพูดชัด). I am seldom misunderstood. I think there are many on this forum who insist that you must learn to read and write either at the same time you learn to speak or even before it, otherwise your pronunciation will be very poor. I believe that I am living proof that is not necessarily true.

2.) Can you read and write Thai?

Yes, as described above I can write (type) Thai reasonably well in everyday language. I can read at probably a ป.๔ or ๕ level. I can read all of Benjawan Becker's books as well as Wiworn Kesavatana-Dohrs' "Everyday Thai for Beginners" with relative ease. I found the latter especially good BTW because it has no phonetic Thai to English transliteration. I can also read most all advertisements and announcements without any problem. Newspaper articles are harder due to the more formal language and depending on the subject. They nearly always require me to use a dictionary for at least several words or phrases. I could use a lot of improvement on my newspaper reading.

3.) How long have you been learning for?

On and off for over 20 years. I first visited Thailand in the late 1980s. At that time the FSI and AUA courses where about the only comprehensive materials on the market so that's what I used. In those days when Thais heard foreigners speaking even a little Thai they would stop and stare in amazement, not like today when many foreigners speak Thai well. I no longer spend as much time on learning as I did in the past because I have already reached a level to where I function well on an everyday basis. That doesn't mean I wish I spoke and understood better, it's just that it's not as important as it used to be.

4.) How did you learn?

Almost entirely on my own. Like someone else said, I bought just about every Thai instruction book that came out over the years. Even if they were elementary phrasebooks there was usually some new vocabulary in them that was new to me. I also made it a point to try to completely stop using English when in Thailand. This was impossible at first of course, but it quickly became easier and easier. Later, once I learned to speak reasonably well I started going to AUA on Rachadamri Road in Bangkok. This improved my comprehension greatly as they use the language acquisition (listen only) method. I did not take their reading and writing courses but did buy the books and half-assed studied them on my own. I have had no real formal instruction in reading and writing Thai. I have picked that up on my own using children’s school books and some other made for the foreigner material.

5. What other languages could you speak before Thai?

I took 2 years of college level Spanish at university and lived near the Mexican border in the US for a number of years. At one time I could converse in Spanish fairly well but it is true that "If you don't use it you lose it" and now can speak and understand only very little.